Raleigh Charter High and four schools in the Wake County school system have made U.S. News & World Report's 2010 list of best public high schools.
Raleigh Charter came in 24th on the list that was released online at midnight. It's the second year in a row that the school has made the U.S. News top 100 list, earning "gold medal" recognition.
Next comes silver medal schools, including Athens Drive High, Cary High, Green Hope High and Sanderson High.
The school system did much better than on the 2009 list. That year, only Green Hope High made the list.
Noticeably absent again from the third annual U.S. News list is Enloe High School. While Enloe routinely makes the top 100 list for Newsweek, it's never made it to the U.S. News list.
The problem for Enloe is that U.S. News doesn't just look at International Baccalaureate and Advanced Placement tests like Newsweek. U.S. News also looks at performance on state tests to see whether a school, as a whole and among its low-income and minority students, is doing better than expected.
Enloe's challenge is that its base students do much worse than the magnet students on state tests, creating one of the largest achievement gaps in the district.
The four Wake silver medal schools meant they fell short of making the top 100 list. But they're considered to have done a good job on state exams and on getting students ready for college.
Raleigh Charter likely got a boost on the list from having relatively few low-income and minority students. The majority of gold meal schools had lower percentages of minority and lower income students.
Wake had more schools on the list than Charlotte-Mecklenburg. Wake had four schools to Charlotte's three.
Click here to view the new rankings.

Comments
I would think it would be
Fri, 12/11/2009 - 07:45 — amedinaohI would think it would be VERY expensive to fund KIPP type schools, as you would have to pay staff a whole lot more to work double hours. I am already working over 50 hours as a teacher and I know if I worked more, I would be burned out. Maybe they use "scripted" programs so the teacher never has to plan anything?
Two items noteworthy
Thu, 12/10/2009 - 14:43 — JTedescoOne of the top 20 in America had a 98% minority/ 87% ED population with a 95% college readiness rating in a major US city.
http://www.usnews.com/listings/high-schools/texas/kipp_houston_high_school
In fact, the chart below at this link shows that 23 schools of the top 100 (nearly a quarter) had ED (F&R) populations greater than 40%, many of then substantially greater. So while we try this balancing act to achieve the 40% magic bullett we have a 54% grad rate for these kids as opposed to many of these other schools with a 90% college readiness rate- not just grad, but college ready.
http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/high-schools/2009/12/09/americas-best-high-schools-top-economically-disadvantaged-schools.html
The other thing that appears telling to me is that of the 25 best schools only one crosses the 2,000 student population mark, and 3 the 1,000 student mark. We have many of our HS over 2,000 kids in place like Garner and Wakefield we are looking at numbers closer to 2,500. Garner has 40 trailers and now a Trailer-teria. But these schools were not designed for all of that capacity even with trailers, there are only so many rest rooms, hall way space, and so on. It does not surprise me that we see school violence on the rise.
Maybe we need to consider commiting to smaller more managable high schools to increase success in academic and social development for students. I for one would like to see HS that need not surpass 1,000 or 1,500 students.
John Tedesco
KIPP Houston High School
Thu, 12/10/2009 - 23:22 — bigyellowtaxiI noticed that the first high school you reference is a KIPP charter school. Students, parents and teachers have made a choice and a huge commitment to being there (in fact, "choice and commitment" is one of KIPP's Five Pillars.) For example, parents have to promise to get their kids to school by 7:25 every day, "do whatever it takes" for their child to learn, and always make themselves available to their children and the school. Students attend school from 7:30 a.m. until 5:00 p.m. on weekdays, every other Saturday, and for three weeks during the summer.
A program like that sounds great, but do you think it could work for everybody? I was thinking not all parents and students would want to put in that level of commitment. What if they don't? Also, do you know how the cost compares to a standard high school?
Of course not....
Fri, 12/11/2009 - 10:52 — Bob_SconceKIPP schools won't work for everybody. But, then again, the existing public school system doesn't work for everybody. The idea is to make alternatives available which work for at least some people that the public school system doesn't work for.
There's no silver bullet in education -- kids respond individually, and an environment that may be perfect for one student may be horrible for another.
I agree one size does not
Fri, 12/11/2009 - 12:56 — bigyellowtaxiI agree one size does not fit all, but I don't think it is fair to compare the educational results of a charter school which has that level of commitment and motivation to the current Wake schools situation. That said, I am intrigued by the idea of a KIPP type school and wonder how it (or they?) would that fit into the system. Is it a magnet? Is it a charter (like Partnership)? Where will the resources come from? (Or is it not as expensive as it sounds?) Would it require cutting something else? If so, what? I don't know how many of the 46% that don't graduate would apply. What happens to the kids you hope would apply, but don't? As I said, it sounds great, but I'm not ready to commit to supporting it until I understand more.
FYI....
Fri, 12/11/2009 - 13:00 — AngelaWPartnership isn't a charter school. It's listed under WCPSS.
OK
Fri, 12/11/2009 - 13:42 — bigyellowtaxiI thought it was a charter run by WCPSS instead of some other group. Whatever it is, I see it is called a WCPSS "school of choice" but not a magnet.
I forget what Partnership's
Fri, 12/11/2009 - 16:42 — jenmanI forget what Partnership's 'mission' is, but I remember reading that the superindendent at the time (I think before McNeal) wanted to show that a charter type model could work within WCPSS. So while its not officially a charter school it doesn't seem to fit into the two main categories of WCPSS schools, magnet or non-magnet.
All this news story tells me
Thu, 12/10/2009 - 22:29 — anxious2010All this news story tells me as a citizen in Wake County is that we do not in fact have subpar schools. While all schools are not perfect, Wake County has gotten a lot of things right and Wake's economy has benefitted from a strong school system which has attracted business from all over. Our school system shores up a fantastic university-rich community which provides a multitude of opportunities to the residents of the Triangle as well as across the state.
As to the idea of smaller high schools, that would definitely be better for teachers and students. I look forward to the funding procured by the new board and the county commissioners to build the schools and hire all the additional teachers. I'm surprised to see that as a conservative agenda.
Its not that WCPSS is
Fri, 12/11/2009 - 11:28 — shearertwIts not that WCPSS is sub-par it’s that they are failing to meet their potential (miserably so) given the population dynamics of Wake Co. In addition, WCPSS is failing miserably to educated F&R groups as well as most minority groups. Let’s compare WCPSS to Houston ISD: HISD – 209,000 students
WCPSS – 140,000 students
WCPSS – 23% F&R
WCPSS – 10 National Merit Scholars (6 of 10 at Enloe)
I do not find a comparison
Fri, 12/11/2009 - 20:03 — anxious2010I do not find a comparison of a district of 209,000 students with a district of 140,000 to be particularly relevant or helpful without considerably more information than provided. As to failing in meeting our potential, that is a generic comment that is often made about public schools. When all schools can be funded like the Harlem Zone with a 1:6 teacher to student ratio, we can have a different discussion regarding potential.
What about NC?
Fri, 12/11/2009 - 20:13 — RichardAndersonCompare WCPSS achievement to that of the state of NC as a whole. Not exactly the world record hurdle to get over, IMO. You will find that the ED population is below the state average in reading, equal to the state average in math, and below the state average for on time graduation. This in a county with a lower percent ED population than the state as a whole. If you believe, as WCPSS told us for years, that percent ED is an indicator of 'health', then why isn't our ED population achieving at state average levels when they are in a healthier environment?
Excellent statement.
Fri, 12/11/2009 - 13:13 — RichardAndersonIts not that WCPSS is sub-par it’s that they are failing to meet their potential
That is worth repeating. Well said. More should be expected than has been delivered.
i concur
Fri, 12/11/2009 - 20:30 — red_balloonIf students are assessed at the start and end of grade at the non-magnet schools, the magnitude of WCPSS' disservice to children and parents will be evident.
"All this news story tells
Thu, 12/10/2009 - 23:25 — user12345"All this news story tells me as a citizen in Wake County is that we do not in fact have subpar schools."
The sky is falling WCPSS is the bottom of the barrel was just a political ploy to energize the base to get them to the polls. In order to challenge the status quo they needed to convince people that things were really bad and change was needed. No one really believed them. Most people are happy with their school and the system really is not all that bad given how little money they get compared to better scoring system.
Cost
Thu, 12/10/2009 - 23:20 — SDR256Did you see the Geoffery Canada interview about the Harlem Children's Zone on Sunday's 60 minutes? This man is a true hero. Visionary and positive. He noted that they spend $5000 per child at his school - and that's with an inhouse medical center and longer hours. Anderson Cooper stated how that was 'a lot of money'. Geoffery started to rattle off the cost of juvenile detention centers and jail time - much much higher cost - in the hundreds of thousands per child. So, with that context, it shows that this is a very positive and conservative way to invest money. We will pay for our children of the future, let's make sure that they and we receive something positive back from that investment.
High School Sizes
Thu, 12/10/2009 - 17:03 — mommy59Our former school system from Dublin,Ohio had 2 of its 3 high school make the Silver List.The combined popluation of the 3 high schools is about 3,600 students.They build smaller schools up there.As for diversity here is a quote from their website:
More than 1,000 ELL (English Language Learners) speaking more than 50 different languages are enrolled
This is for a district that is only 14,000 compared to WCPSS of 140,000.
I agree with you smaller high schools are the way to go.
$$$$$
Thu, 12/10/2009 - 16:47 — exYank_WCprinWell there is a lot of evidence to suggest that smaller high schools are a good model, but I remind you the Wake Bd of Com hasn't funding WCPSS adequately for 30 years which has led directly to MYR schools and other unpopular board decisions. I do not understand in this recession or in the slow recovery that is expected that anything will change, i.e. people will fight a school bond or increases in taxes.
Plus...good luck finding land and $$$ to build 6-10 high schools at $30+ million a pop.
Think outside the box by building one
Thu, 12/10/2009 - 18:21 — user12345I am betting that a three story square building (800 kids?) with no football team/field, media center, band room, TVs, etc. on inexpensive land (not the normal 70 acres) dedicated strictly to advanced learning would attact many takers.
See Cooper Union in NYC ... one of the top colleges in the nation with 900 student in a square three story building.
....http://www.flickr.com/photos/jim-in-times-square/575669813/....
Bingo
Thu, 12/10/2009 - 23:14 — SDR256You just described the Thales schools. And they are about 3 million to build. And you're right, they're very popular.
But not for every student
Thu, 12/10/2009 - 23:32 — user12345But not for every student ... there are some parents that would moan about not having a band room, fixing lunch or preventing Johnny from getting a football scholarship because of no team. I think if we did build these "learning cubes" and allow people primarily interested in education to go there we could satisfy much of the demand from people who want higher standards. While some people complain about every change that affects their daycare arrangements, I would welcome more days and longer hours.
Suggestion...
Thu, 12/10/2009 - 15:38 — Bob_SconceOpen a network of smaller opt-in magnet high schools without football stadiums or athletic fields. If possible, use existing buildings and use the money saved in coaches, landscaping, bond service, etc... to pay magnet teachers and provide better academic programs.
So you want your son/daughter
Thu, 12/10/2009 - 16:59 — exYank_WCprinto miss the high school "experience."???? or simply other kids....... but you might find a couple...
Wake already has what you are advocating....Raleigh Charter and 1-2 Early College schools. I'm not certain Wake can support many more (1-2?) so you will have to bus across the entire county to fill it.
Not a bad idea but the board would need to run a cost-benefit analysis. I believe the prior board investigated such smaller schools because they were having problems finding land to accommodate land for parking, and fields for football, baseball, lacrosse, soft ball, soccer, etc. (which can only be shared so many times in one afternoon.)
Heh...
Thu, 12/10/2009 - 17:31 — Bob_SconceI'm already planning for my kids to apply to RCHS when they get to that point, so I have no issue with missing the "experience" of cheering on the high school football team if it means getting a better education. But, that's an individual decision -- if you're hoping to go to college on a basketball scholarship, that sort of school isn't for you.
You identified why I made the suggestion -- high schools are expensive, partially due to the land that they need for athletic fields. Drop the athletic fields and you open up a lot of other alternatives.
My impression of the Early College schools is that they're not particularly good and they're remote, so they're not all that attractive. But, RCHS seems to have far more applicants than it can handle.
You can't be serious!
Thu, 12/10/2009 - 15:34 — RichardAndersonSo you are telling me that you don't think the answer is labeling these schools as "unhealthy" and moving students around? What about the accolades?
Thanks for seeing reality, John.
The serious side of my comment
Thu, 12/10/2009 - 17:02 — JTedescoI was noting that our eye is on the wrong prize.T oo many say schools with high F&R can not succeed . T hese schools show quite the opposite. So maybe our focus need s to be on stud ent achievement not just stud ent d isbursement across a broad er network aimed to hid e our d eficiencies in ed ucating our most vulnerable child ren.
John, A couple things to
Thu, 12/10/2009 - 15:07 — shearertwJohn,
A couple things to add.
Houston Indepent School District (HISD) is about 1.5 times as large as WCPSS, about 209K vs 140K. Its student population is 60% hispanic, 30% black and 10% white. Unlike with the WCPSS website, I could not locate the %F&R easily but I'm guessing they're higher than WCPSS. I suppose they are just not as interested in tracking that number.
Anyway, this year, WCPSS honored 10 National Merit Scholars, 6 were from Enloe. HISD honored over 50. Something is terribly wrong. Below is an excerpt from the HISD website regarding student assignment, FYI.
Prior to your arrival on the board. The former board members used to enjoy travelling around to other districts talking about how wonderful they are and their "success" in Wake Co. Perhaps the new board could set a new precident of traveling to truly successful districts to find out what they are doing right.
Geographic Regions and Feeder Patterns
Most HISD schools are assigned to one of five regions (North, East, South, West, and Central) with offices located in communities to give students and parents personalized service and immediate assistance. The five geographic regions encompass "feeder patterns" or teams of schools in which the majority of students in a given community move from elementary school, to middle school to the high school located in their neighborhoods.
Each regional office is managed by a regional superintendent who coordinates a team of executive principals to ensure the quality of instruction throughout the region's feeder patterns. Feeder pattern information is available on each of the Region Web sites. Regional mangers serve to strengthen the district's outreach to parents by handling parental concerns and working to improve parent, volunteer, and business-partner programs. View a list of schools in each region by selecting a region on the map below.
Alternative and external charter schools are located throughout the district to provide a menu of schools and programs that meet the needs of students who benefit from a nontraditional educational environment. The district's schools and programs strive to provide quality instruction by utilizing a myriad of strategic interventions and innovative enrichments tailored to meet the unique educational and developmental needs of these students. An Alternative and Charter School Office manages those types of schools.
"Silver" versus "Gold"
Thu, 12/10/2009 - 13:14 — BWNelsonRegardless of the "type" of medal being awarded, I'm very proud to see so many Wake County high schools getting honors like this. WCPSS is doing something right here, it just needs to figure out how to do more things right, and do right by more people.
Nice comparison with CMS
Thu, 12/10/2009 - 12:02 — shearertwNice comparison with CMS Keung. How about mentioning Guilford's school that topped the list with regard to NC schools?
I mentioned the Guilford
Thu, 12/10/2009 - 12:26 — KeungHui (author)I mentioned the Guilford Early College in the online article. The district has 2 schools on the list.
Good deal. I didn't see
Thu, 12/10/2009 - 12:47 — shearertwGood deal. I didn't see the online article.
Expectations
Thu, 12/10/2009 - 09:30 — RichardAndersonYes, because we should assume that if you aren't white and aren't from a family that makes better than average money that you won't do well in school.
Why are these types of comments not only acceptable, but also common? Were someone to say "that company is run by minorities so you can't expect it to do well," that person would (rightly so) be denounced as a racist. Yet when it comes to a school population and achievement, expressing the very same sentiments is acceptable.
How about this for an idea: a school system that aims to teach all students must have the same expectations for all students. Crazy, right?
Confusing the debate
Thu, 12/10/2009 - 10:42 — pmbecause we should assume that if you aren't white and aren't from a
family that makes better than average money that you won't do well in
school.
Again. No one feels that race is the impacting factor; income is.
Raleigh Charter High School's Lottery
Thu, 12/10/2009 - 13:26 — BWNelsonIs an open lottery. My understanding is that to get into the lottery pool, an applicant has to be ready for Algebra by ninth grade, and I believe they can either test out for this or present transcripts showing they are algebra ready. Now, I could be wrong about this, so anyone can jump in and correct me, but I believe that is the only major criteria to get into the lottery.
So if this is true, the question is not so much why is RCHS so "white", but why don't more minorities apply? One answer I've heard is that transportation is an issue. Another potential answer is the math requirement, but if a student can "test" in, then even if their grades didn't reflect their ability to learn, if they passed the test, then they would make it in the pool. I'm sure there are other reasons that people can come up with here.
RCHS Lottery
Thu, 12/10/2009 - 18:26 — WakeCountyParentMy son applied to Raleigh Charter last year as a rising freshman. When we arrived for the lottery, which is open to the public, btw, we were told (via handout) that siblings of existing students made up the majority of the new freshman class, and there was only a 13% chance of getting in. With those kinds of odds, we knew it was a long shot.
At the lottery, we were divided into different rooms that denoted which math level under which the students would be admitted. The students' names had been written on index cards beforehand and were also divided by math level.
Principal Humble entered the room, explained how the lottery would work, indicated how many open slots were available for our math level, indicated how many waiting list slots would be drawn, and dumped the cards into a tub. Another staff member mixed them around, and the drawing began. If I remember correctly, there was also someone there from DPI or SBoE to oversee the process.
The aforementioned handout also indicated the chances of getting in at the 10th grade level. That class had one opening available (meaning that one student from the previous year did not plan to return), and that opening had already been filled with a sibling (meaning that if you showed up with a rising 10th grader, you were SOL).
Needless to say, we did not get in. ((I say "we" because that's the feeling you have when you're the kind of family who places education pretty high on the priority list -- it's a family effort.))
So, we did not get in, but neither did many, many of our son's classmates, one of whom is the child of a prominent NC politician. If I'd thought for a minute that Raleigh Charter's lottery system was rigged in any way, that particular child's "non-luck" in the lottery would have certainly changed my mind.
As others have stated far more eloquently, I believe there are many factors that factor into a child's performance, and it starts at home. If the parents don't value education enough to instill that value early on and work with their children to prepare them for Kindergarten (or, at the very least, get them into a pre-K class like More at Four or HeadStart), the child begins his/her school career at a disadvantage. Start peppering the pot with all the other factors -- low expectations, large class sizes with high student-teacher ratios, learning disabilities, lack of motivation, economic disadvantage, etc. and you have a rolling snowball down a hill...it keeps getting bigger and bigger and more out of control.
My children are Caucasian, five years apart. The older one has excelled since day one. The younger one has a yet-undiagnosed/yet-untreated developmental/learning disability and has struggled since day one. He entered school under an IEP, met his objectives, and was kicked off the IEP at age 7. Our family income has not changed drastically one way or the other. The degree of parental involvement has not changed either; rather, it has increased, by necessity, just to keep this kid at "mediocre" rather than "failing miserably".
If our family income was higher, we'd be able to throw money at educational psychologists, private tutors, etc. Instead, we must rely on the resources WCPSS offers which, I'm tellin' ya, ain't much.
There is no easy answer folks, no single solution that will suddenly make everything okay. But hiding the low-performing kids in the mish-mash of statistics and pretending WCPSS is the greatest school system on the planet with its current policies is definitely NOT the answer.
Quick question --
Fri, 12/11/2009 - 11:00 — Bob_SconceAs I understand it, there are 3 sets:
(1) children who are ready for Algebra I (25%)
(2) children who are ready for Geometry (50%)
(3) children who are ready for Algebra II (25%)
Just based on your knowledge, which set makes it easier for a kid to get in?
Am I the only who wishes
Fri, 12/11/2009 - 11:20 — NWRaleighMomAm I the only who wishes they changed their enrollment rules to give more chance to advanced students no matter what race/SES they come from?
Rules?
Fri, 12/11/2009 - 13:10 — RichardAndersonI am not sure what you mean. The rules give the same chance no matter what race/SES the applicant is. As I understand it, the names are drawn at random. If you mean they should stack the pool to favor certain applicants based on race/SES, no, I don't agree. I think that is a very dangerous thing to do. It is essentially what WCPSS does with magnet programs now, just in reverse of what I believe you to be proposing here. Neither one is particularly productive in the long term even if you can make a compelling short term argument for the practice.
I didn't mean that at all. I
Fri, 12/11/2009 - 15:13 — NWRaleighMomI didn't mean that at all. I wish they give preference to students ready for Algebra II, not divide them in buckets (see below)
"Am I the only who wishes
Fri, 12/11/2009 - 12:36 — user12345"Am I the only who wishes they changed their enrollment rules to give more chance to advanced students no matter what race/SES they come from?"
NW .. I think the system is struggle with is priorities ... AG / AP parents want more (they are our future), ED parents want more (they need to be able to compete or will become a burden), magnet parents want more, some want less school time due to daycare and others want more, some what the low minority graduation rate addressed, some want special programs like KIPP ... without established and agreed to priorities (e.g. smart kids are more valuable than average kids or minority graduation is priority #1) they are just reacting ...
Well...
Fri, 12/11/2009 - 12:34 — Bob_SconceThat's the problem with success -- there's just too much demand. Also indicates a need to lift the cap on charter high schools. RCHS' model is repeatable, but that can't happen until more charter schools are allowed to be opened.
I'm just asking because my oldest is still young enough (and has the math chops) that we can take action now to make sure that he fits into whatever bucket gives him the greatest chance of getting in.
"I'm just asking because my
Fri, 12/11/2009 - 14:06 — user12345"I'm just asking because my oldest is still young enough (and has the math chops) that we can take action now to make sure that he fits into whatever bucket gives him the greatest chance of getting in. "
Bob, maybe your best chance for getting in is to marry someone whose kids already attend
Hmm...
Fri, 12/11/2009 - 14:32 — Bob_SconceHa! I have the feeling that Mrs. Sconce would not appreciate that.
Tyler Cowan (www.marginalrevolution.com) occasionally posts something called "markets in everything," where markets develop in unexpected places. I can see a market opening up for ways to have priority admission to charter schools. My thought was to get my son into Algebra summer school so he can take Geometry as an 8th grader. Same result, different method.
I took geometry as an 8th
Fri, 12/11/2009 - 15:38 — carson79I took geometry as an 8th grader - highly recommend that track to math lovers. I had to take 6th grade pre algebra with 7th graders but it was worth it.
Hmm...
Fri, 12/11/2009 - 16:09 — Bob_SconceYeah, so Geometry is really the first math class where you do proofs. So, for people who really enjoy solving problems, especially if they think visually, it's a great class. (Assuming it's taught well.)
Unfortunately, the NC Standard Course of Study waters down the traditional Euclidean Geometry with all sorts of things that are only tangentially related to Geometry and completely unrelated to proofs.
Good Plan
Fri, 12/11/2009 - 14:39 — WakeCountyParent...and don't forget the NC School of Math & Science when your son is ready for 11th grade.
I totally agree with you.
Fri, 12/11/2009 - 13:07 — NWRaleighMomI totally agree with you. It's a shame if your child will have to take a less rigorous course in MS just to increase his chances of getting in.
IEP
Fri, 12/11/2009 - 10:23 — lferreriOur son had speech so he was on an IEP. It really opened our eyes to how the system works. Legally, I believe that they cannot kick your son off an IEP just because he is succeeding. I found a web site with many parents who have a lot of knowledge about this and are very supportive. Google "Millermom". It used to be sponsored by the Schwab Foundation but is now maintained by some parents. Good luck.
I'm sure the language
Fri, 12/11/2009 - 15:21 — WakeCountyParentI'm sure the language WCPSS/school folks used is more eloquent and clear than mine will be, but to sum up...he met all his objectives (these objectives were spelled out when he was age 3.5)...he aged out (7yo is the next major evaluation age)...and, at age 7, he had not been diagnosed with anything definitive enough to continue IEP services.
As I understand it, prior to age 7 kids can be labeled with an unspecified developmental delay and receive services as appropriate. After age 7, though, there has to be a specific diagnosis (autism, ADD, etc.) in order to continue services.
My son shows no consistencies that can be attributed to any one problem. Some days he's "on" and others he's "off".
Is there a pill for that? LOL (I'm laughing on the outside, crying on the inside!)
Not sure
Fri, 12/11/2009 - 15:43 — lferreriI used the millermom web site to find out about speech and about some general education issues like FERPA. So I don't know much about other issues. But your son sounds like a lot of the kids they describe. They talk about inconsistencies all the time. Our son learned to say the "r" sound (his only speech problem) so it made sense that he exited special education. But if your son continues to struggle, there are a lot of services he might be entitled to get and you wouldn't have to pay for them (like the tutors and psychologists you mentioned above). I have no expertise in this area although I've taught students with disabilities. From that web site, I know that you can get him tested for free. You can also see a lot of the pros and cons of a special education designation. I apologize if I'm telling you things you already know.