Wake's newest SAT results look good but there's one large question about them that needs to be addressed.
As far as good news, the average SAT score for the Wake school system rose 14 points for a combined math and reading average score of 1,073. Wake was tied for the third-highest average SAT score of the state's 115 districts.
Wake continues to be well above the state and national averages, which both dropped one point. The national average is 1,016 and the state average is 1,006.
The odd thing is that both the number and percentage of Wake seniors taking the SAT dropped again.
For the 2008-09 school year, 5,338 seniors, or 67.1 percent, took the SAT. In 2007-08, 5,611 seniors, or 73.6 percent, took the SAT.
The rate was even higher in 2006-07 when 79.8 percent of seniors took the exam. But official caution against comparing results before the 2007-08 because the methodology for determining participation rates was changed that year.
Still, it's not a trend that's a good one for Wake. Previously, school officials regularly touted how an increasing percentage of students were taking the SAT.
Click here for school-by-school results.
UPDATE
Wake is reporting an average score of 1,074. They say the state got it wrong.
Comments
Why take the SAT?
Thu, 08/27/2009 - 09:23 — user12345http://www.ibiblio.org/newsdesk/apples/sp09/voices/latinos-high-school-graduation-rates-nc
Carrboro, N.C.- Like many Latino youth in North Carolina, Mariana Gasca, 18, dropped out of high school last year. Bored with school and lured by a job waiting tables, she left Carrboro High School during her sophomore year. In 2008, just 56.2 percent of Latino students graduated within four years of entering high school, according to the state’s Department of Public Instruction.
Many Factors Cause Dropping Out - A variety of reasons, including legal status, outside employment, family obligations, and academic challenges cause Latino students to disproportionately dropout, several North Carolina educators said, while drawing distinctions between immigrant and non-immigrant Latinos.
“For the Latino kids, what I see is a lot of them are undocumented and they just want to work,” Ms. Crider said. “With a high school diploma, it’s not really going to change their life that much, because they can’t go to community college.”
“It’s been frustrating, because there aren’t a lot of options open to undocumented students,” said Ms. Eliot. “They can’t really go on to a higher level of education.” Even if they did, she said, it would be hard for them to obtain jobs befitting a bachelor’s degree.
Family obligations can also be an impediment to Latino students graduating from high school. “One student had to help with the family business,” said Ms. Eliot. “If young children were sick, she had to miss school.” Eventually, the student dropped out of high school.
“Many families have a tremendous work ethic and an old world view of work,” said Paul Caudros, a professor at the U. of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, of Latino students and dropout rates. People in Mexico often end school after the sixth grade, he added, so such families may not see the need for their children to finish high school.
“Low expectations by teachers, feelings of alienation, disruption in their homes, all these factors can contribute to [non-immigrant Latinos] dropping out,” said Mr. Cuadros.
The rest of US did not improve
Wed, 08/26/2009 - 19:34 — user12345Average scores for the class of 2009 in critical reading dropped to 501 from 502, in writing to 493 from 494 and held steady in math, at 515. The combined scores are the lowest this decade and reflect stalled performance over the past three years. The reading scores are the worst since 1994.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125121641858657345.html
Give the Man a Cigar!
Wed, 08/26/2009 - 10:08 — RiversideRealistApparently, when you have a more education parental population, it takes more General Administration spending to keep them all bamboozled.
That's the best line I've read here in a while!!
67%
Wed, 08/26/2009 - 09:13 — mommy59For the 2008-09 school year, 5,338 seniors, or 67.1 percent, took the SAT. I can say my daughter did NOT take SAT.I have said this many times due to the misguidings of the high school guidance counselors and no matter how hard I fought with city hall she didn't have the right math to take and pass the SAT! Thankfully they have changed the math track for the Class of 2013 and all will take Algebra 1,Algebra 2,Geometry and a 4th higher math. I also do beleive that many did not take the test because of the economy-test is expensive and so is college.Look at Wake Tech this fall.Every class if full to the max!
not enough teachers
Wed, 08/26/2009 - 09:49 — loriacHowever - there's not enough teachers - i know at least a few freshmen who were shut out of math their freshman year. The classes are full! Hopefully they will be able to double up on math in the next couple years so they will have the right classes to pass the SAT!
It's interesting to note from another post that compared per student spending between Wake and CMS - spending on General Administration is more than double in Wake County than CMS. We need teachers, not administration - cuts should have been made here first.
I noticed that too.
Wed, 08/26/2009 - 10:03 — shearertwI noticed that too. Instruction spending in CMS was also slightly higher.
Apparently, when you have a more education parental population, it takes more General Administration spending to keep them all bamboozled.
Drop outs?
Tue, 08/25/2009 - 22:54 — SDR256So, maybe having only 56% of low income kids graduating is actually an advantage for Wake here. I mean, if three kids take the test and all score perfectly Wake can say that they get a perfect score, right? They don't have to talk about the other 138,997 who dropped out, right? (exaggeration for illustration, obviously)
And ya know I was thinking about that $5million in PR today. Maybe WCPSS has figured out that its cheaper NOT to educate low income kids, to continue to bus them around and simply pay to snow the public. Maybe this quasi-sleazy Enron corporation that is WCPSS is really doing us a favor with our tax dollars and we should just skulk away and avert our eyes. Its what the vast majority of the public does. It would be so much easier.
I stood outside the grocery store today handing out flyers telling my kids - "every one I hand out is another nickel". It kept them busy counting while I informed people that the school where their kids go to school is not the district they vote in, etc etc etc.
Get out there folks!! Tell people about the WSCA Round Robins this Saturday! Hit that DONATE button!
LMAO
Tue, 08/25/2009 - 18:08 — RiversideRealistFifteen years ago when I took the SAT I scored a 1350, and I KNOW (via conversations with folks younger than me) that the test has been dumbed down over time.
I don't know what the heck ANYONE is crowing about, WCPSS or otherwise.
I've been sitting here
Tue, 08/25/2009 - 18:25 — AngelaWI've been sitting here thinking the same thing, besides which my freshman took that SAT in 7th grade (through Duke TIPS) and scored 1000 then!!! think about how much he hadn't even been exposed to....*sigh* WCPSS mediocrity at its best!
2008-09 SAT Scores
Tue, 08/25/2009 - 16:29 — user12345I know there are many who
Tue, 08/25/2009 - 16:30 — user12345I know there are many who love CMS and wish they lived there but Wake spends less and has better results.
User,So typical....You
Wed, 08/26/2009 - 08:44 — shearertwUser,
So typical....You claim to be for the poor, the minorities, the down trodden...but when it comes to your analysis of WCPSS vs CMS, you just sweep them under the rug.
There is no doubt that Wake Co. has more wealth and higher educated parents that CMS. That's all that is measured when you lump the two entire school populations together for comparison. That is not what is at question here when comparing WCPSS vs CMS. The question is, does WCPSS diversity policy help those who it is intended to help? The only way to compare that is to compare the SAT scores of the two ED populations and look at graduation rates. I haven't taken the time to look up the comparison but I'm willing to bet CMS vs WCPSS scores are similar or CMS is slightly better. Let's see you post that data.
Total of $5 now owed to WSCA.
Intention of policy
Wed, 08/26/2009 - 11:02 — TrailerParkGirl"The question is, does WCPSS diversity policy help those who it is intended to help? The only way to compare that is to compare the SAT scores of the two ED populations and look at graduation rates."
Per Kevin Hill's response to a comparion of WCPSS and CMS some months back the intent of the assignment policy is to create healthy SCHOOLs because schools with more than 40% ED cannot be healthy and is not about individual students. Based on that it seems the policy is and never was intended to help ED populations, which is why it has not helped those populations.
How can a policy based on theories grounded in negative stereotypes and assumptions of a group and how others will relate to that group (they create unhealthy schools, their parents won't be involved even if the school is 300 ft. way, "good" teachers won't teach in schools inundated with ED kids, etc.) help that group? It's counterintuitive.
If you look at schools, systems, methods, approaches, and attitudes that have helped ED populations they are grounded in the exact opposite (all will learn, the school will be healthy regardless of the SES percentages, no one knows anyone's potential, etc.)
TPG, I agree with you
Wed, 08/26/2009 - 11:11 — shearertwTPG,
I agree with you 100% with you assessment of why the policy is failing. However, the "healthy schools" thing, is a new branding of the original goal. The first goal clearly failed, i.e. there has been no improvement the performance of the ED population in WCPSS. So...they gave up on that goal and are rebranding the policy in the name of creating "healthy schools" which no one could possibly define or, more importantly, measure the policy's success by.
Agree, "healthy schools" is
Wed, 08/26/2009 - 15:47 — CaryCurmudgeonAgree, "healthy schools" is simply a rebranding effort for a failed program.
Here's an oldie but goodie from our friends at WEP, issued in 2001:
http://www.wakeedpartnership.org/publications/d/AllForAll.pdf
Top Five NCAE Member Responses to why they chose Wake County -
Spouse's job or career move 31%
Grew up or lived in Wake County 20%
Livability of Triangle area 13%
Salary 11%
Quality or reputation of WCPSS 9%
Does not seem like "healthy schools" was much of an issue until we demonstrated failure on closing the achievement gap.
I've only been following this stuff for a couple years
Wed, 08/26/2009 - 12:15 — TrailerParkGirlSo back in the day the original stated goal was to improve the ED performance? When was that? Was the thought that ED performance would improve via bussing for "diversity" still based on the same negative stereotypes and assumptions of ED? I'm guessing it was. I doubt all the ED can't, won't elitist attitudes didn't just crop up with the "healthy schools" rebranding.
Yes. I believe it was all
Wed, 08/26/2009 - 12:34 — shearertwYes. I believe it was all about "closing the gap", etc. However, there is a big difference between "stated goals" and actual "intended goals". The "stated goals" seemed to have changed but the "actual goals" are the same. I believe the "actual goal" is to shuffle "those kids" around to even out the EOG/EOC scores. That way they can claim victory with "no failing schools". Same amount of failing students, just lower amount of failing schools. They'll continue to change the "stated goal" depending on the political winds and the mounting evidence against the policy.
Considering
Tue, 08/25/2009 - 21:50 — TrailerParkGirlPer the WCPSS theory that >40% ED schools cannot be healthy, >40% ED districts must not be able to be healthy and CMS is above 40% ED. Therefore, Wake's results are better than a district that by Wake's own theory cannot be healthy. Wow, maybe they can get themselves an award for that.
No one has said CMS is the end all be all, but if you want to compare to CMS and do a more honest comparison the differences in demographics need to be considered, which are reflected in the indices below such as Students with Special Needs Index and the Student Needs Cost Adjuster.
Additionally, the state report linked in the article indicates that white and Asian students in NC score significantly higher than blacks and Hispanics, so look at the racial demographic differences as well, not to mention differences in average adult education levels.
When all those factors are considered are Wake's results truly "better"?
"Additionally, the state
Wed, 08/26/2009 - 19:49 — user12345"Additionally, the state report linked in the article indicates that white and Asian students in NC score significantly higher than blacks and Hispanics, so look at the racial demographic differences as well, not to mention differences in average adult education levels. "
I would have thought that CMS neighborhood schools would overcome all the racial and income difference as these kids had so much more time with their teachers since they don’t ride the bus, were surround by loving neighbor helping them do their homework and fully supported by their parents who were intimately involved with neighborhood schools.
Strawman Alert...
Thu, 08/27/2009 - 06:15 — Bob_Sconce"I would
have thought that CMS neighborhood schools would overcome all
the racial and income difference as these kids had so much more time
with their teachers since they don’t ride the bus, were surround by
loving neighbor helping them do their homework and fully supported by
their parents who were intimately involved with neighborhood schools."
I don't think anybody has ever suggested that CMS has totally solved the problem of underperforming F&R students. CMS is brought up as a counter to Wake because it seems to be doing about as well as Wake with F&R students, despite having far more of them, without busing kids all over creation.
I can't find the CMS breakdown by race
Wed, 08/26/2009 - 22:40 — TrailerParkGirlbut I found the trends on page 7 of the WCPSS report troubling. I thought all that bussing was supposed to help them overcome.
Also, interesting that WCPSS chose to call out on page 2 the 'black' improvement from 2004-2009. Why call out the improvement since 2004 (tied for lowest scoring year) and not the better scoring base years of 2002, 2005 or 2006? Why not say the scores for black students have been up and down, but overall flat since 1996 - holy cow we have work to do? National trend for black has also sadly been flat, but NC has been trending slightly upward.
Considering the scores for whites have been trending upward here faster than the national trend and the white/black gap has widened, maybe all those selfish, white, affluent folks in Weston you are so sure are the only people in WSCA should just shut up about wanting change and just let the white/black SAT score gap increase trend and the maintenance of the overall ED/NED gap continue unchallenged...
http://www.wcpss.net/evaluation-research/reports/2009/0929sat08-09.pdf
Well...
Tue, 08/25/2009 - 19:34 — Bob_SconceYou have to compare similar groups of kids to make a valid comparison --
CMS has far more poor kids, who don't do as well on standardized tests.
Consider, for example, North Meckenberg & Wakefield HS's -- similar F&R percentages and similar SAT scores. That's probably a more valid comparison than comparing overall systems.
(Incidentally, why add the 5?)
THE SAT is not Mandatory
Wed, 08/26/2009 - 16:39 — chaboard....and is self-selecting, so I would guess that the demograhics of those who actually took it in Wake and those who actually CMS are reasonably close. The vast majority of hose extra F&R kids CMS has are not going to be taking the SAT.
Hmm...
Thu, 08/27/2009 - 06:10 — Bob_SconceYou're probably right that fewer F&R students take the test than do non-F&R students. But, I see no reason to believe that no F&R students took the test. In fact, if 70% of Wake County's students took the test, some of them had to be F&R students.
If only, say 20%, of F&R students in each county took the test, that would be enough to skew the results.
Negative assumptions about F&R kids are not mandatory either
Wed, 08/26/2009 - 21:23 — TrailerParkGirlbut that doesn't seem to stop you from making them.
"The vast majority of hose (sic) extra F&R kids CMS has are not going to be taking the SAT."
(sarcasm on) yeah, why would those extra loser F&R kids in CMS bother taking the SAT, afterall the only thing F&R kids are capable of is creating unhealthy schools. They're certainly not capable of going to college. (sarcasm off) You and the rest of your elitist status quo buddies have them all figured out, huh. I always wonder if the hyprocrisy goes down easy with the Kool-aide.
According to the 2008 F&R application percentages per NC Wise, CMS was about 48% F&R while WCPSS was about 33%. SAT participation rate was about 61% for CMS and 67% for WCPSS. Therefore, while it is statistically possible that none of "those F&R kids" in WCPSS took the SAT, that is not the case for CMS.
Way to go WCPSS .. Nearly
Tue, 08/25/2009 - 16:12 — user12345Way to go WCPSS .. Nearly 70% of the kids took the test! ...ahead of 112 other districts... not that many kids have a chance to go to college yet they still took it.. These scores are much more representative than if only the top kids took it but it probably pulls down the average with such a high participation rate ... oh well .. Wake where the kids are all above average .. no wonder people want to move here ... at least from the other 112 districts ..
Interesting but ....
Tue, 08/25/2009 - 10:55 — fastrsI wonder a little bit about the statistics of number of seniors ... For example, my son graduated from Enloe last year. He took SAT's in his junior year, but not senior. Are these guys counted (is it took SAT in senior year OR seniors that ever took the SAT) Also, it would be interesting to figure out if there are now a number of kids that are taking ACT only and factor that in. As noted in the story schools with higher SAT scores may have fewer people take them because they take ACT instead. Also, on a school by school basis, what effect does redistricting have? If a school loses a node that produces more college bound seniors than the one that replaces it, wouldn't you expect that schools number to go down (but not necessarily across the system).
Everyone gets counted. If
Tue, 08/25/2009 - 12:20 — KeungHui (author)Everyone gets counted. If you only take it as a junior they count it for the district in your senior year.
Wow
Tue, 08/25/2009 - 12:47 — Eric_BWow! 67% seems incredibly low then...
OT - School Board Meetings
Tue, 08/25/2009 - 10:09 — ExplorisMSParentAre school board meetings televised? Are committee meetings (such as the one going on right now for Student Achievement Committee) open to the public?
All school board meetings,
Tue, 08/25/2009 - 10:12 — KeungHui (author)All school board meetings, including committee meetings, are open to the public. For certain items they can go into closed session. Only the regular board meetings are televised. Money to broadcast committee meetings online was added to last year's budget but was dropped when the commissioners gave less money than requested.
Channel?
Tue, 08/25/2009 - 12:31 — ExplorisMSParentThanks, Keung...I have TWC; which channel should I look to for that broadcast?
Do you cover the committee meetings? Are there formal agendas and minutes?
It depends on what town you
Tue, 08/25/2009 - 13:26 — KeungHui (author)It depends on what town you live in. If you live in Raleigh, it's Raleigh Television Network. The other towns also broadcast the meeting feed from Raleigh TV.
I cover some of the committee meetings. It depends on what's being discussed. They do have agendas and minutes for them.