Mobile versionYou may also like WakeWatch | Eastern Wake Buzz | Crosstown Traffic | Campus Notes
The WakeEd blog is devoted to discussing and answering questions about the major issues facing the Wake County school system. How much will the new Democratic majority on the school board do to undo the changes made by Republicans since 2009? How will the new choice-based assignment system work now that the socioeconomic diversity policy has been eliminated? How will Superintendent Tony Tata lead the state's largest district through more budget cuts and possible layoffs? How will the board respond to growth and the school construction program?
WakeEd is maintained by The News & Observer's Wake schools reporter, T. Keung Hui. While Keung posts information and analysis on the issues, keep us posted on your suggestions, questions, tips and what you're doing to cope with the changes in Wake's schools.
Wake County school leaders want public comment on the four sample zone maps.
The school district has posted zoomable versions of the four maps. They've also included info such as which schools are in each zone and enrollment projections.
Feedback is being taken through Aug. 29. Click here to view the maps and comment.
School board member John Tedesco, chairman of the student assignment committee, had asked that the info be put online for public comment.
Comments
wedding
Mon, 08/09/2010 - 02:07 — cosplayIf you or I made such an outrageous statement here, who cares. When the sitting mayor of the primary city makes such a public statement it DOES contribute. Contributions can be positive or negative. Meeker certainly is not the only the only high profile combatant to make an unfortunate and negative comment in this glorious mess.
Wake student assignment debate isn't new
Fri, 07/30/2010 - 17:36 — AngelaWRaleigh, N.C. — With protests, arrests and concerns about re-segregation, the future of the Wake County Public School System is a heated topic.
But how did the school system get to this level of conflict? The issue is deeper than white versus black and rich versus poor.
The controversy about what's best for Wake County students and communities goes back nearly a decade, when the school system's socio-economic diversity policy was in its infancy.
It was put in place after a U.S. Supreme Court ruling that school systems could no longer bus students based solely on race.
As the school system crafted and tweaked the policy to bus children based on economic factors, parents of all races complained.
Desaidra King's son, for example, was going to be bused away from a downtown neighborhood school to help diversify Leesville Elementary School in north Raleigh. She opted for a charter school closer to home.
"I don't think anyone should be demanded or commanded to go to a certain school for their child," King said.
Other parents agreed, saying that, while they believe diversity was important, the way to achieve it was through choice.
The diversity policy was on shaky ground.
In 2000, the Wake Education Partnership conducted a survey that showed that 60 percent of registered voters supported the system's diversity policy. Two years later, it dwindled to 40 percent.
Board members held firm.
"The community must answer if you want diverse schools," Bill McNeal, Wake County's school superintendent at the time, said in 2000. "What are you going to do, and what are you prepared to do to ensure that that happens in Wake County?"
The solution then, as it is now, was not easy to put a finger on.
School board members argued that they had to examine why they were busing – diversity for diversity's sake, or to benefit students.
Throughout the years, parents have complained that they have had little input in massive reassignment plans that have shuffled students across the county – some to deal with growth and to fill new schools, others to achieve diversity.
In 2003, a reassignment plan based on promoting socio-economic diversity drew a variety of criticism.
"We're talking about a process where parents don't necessarily feel like they're heard," parent Dawn Sweat said.
In the end, school leaders stuck to their vision to eliminate low-poverty schools with the hope of raising test scores and making all schools attractive to teachers.
"We've been challenged and accused of social engineering," then-school board member Bill Fletcher said in 2002. "The fact is, we've been doing educational engineering."
It's a debate that's decades old in Wake County and likely not to go away anytime soon.
HS plan looks good.
Fri, 07/30/2010 - 10:18 — DrActualFactualGrowth and Planning did a good job pulling together an enormous amount of info for the group to look at. The different iterations give us a good idea of various starting points. Ms. Evans seemed to like the HS map/plan and I would agree for several reasons but primarily because they plan to migrate the kids over to the new system and grandfather them in and she seemed to feel this plan would create the least turmoil (that would be a big plus at this point). Students will still be able to apply for magnet schools which would take some out of their base zone. Unfortunately, Wake's system is so large it will be problematic to implement any system well. Somewhere down the line people don't know what they are supposed to do and they deviate from the plan because they think they have a better idea and unintended consequences result. (Dr. Kahlenberg noted that the previous plan didn't work because it wasn't implemented as designed). Mr. Alves has said a piece meal approach would probably not work. His plan is based on providing parents with their first or second choices and if you don't get that you are placed on a waiting list for your first choice. (You could be on that list forever while your kid ages out--this was one of the complaints where it has been used.) I don't know that Wake Co. has the seat capacity to give parents this type of choice. I also don't think a bond will pass to pay to fix the "underrequested" schools or build new schools--it is still too soon after MYR and other recent setbacks from previous board (IMO). I am hopeful that the entire board will review recent court case proceedings (Seattle?Kansas City, MO?) wherein judges provided explicit guidelines for creating zones/draw areas.
How does the HS map/plan
Fri, 07/30/2010 - 12:11 — magnetParentHow does the HS map/plan create the least turmoil? With even first glance at this map I could see issues that will cause a great deal of turmoil. Some examples:
This was just from a 5 second view of the maps. I think the map labelled "Planning Region" will provide more choice and have much less turmoil. In the areas I am familiar with (as mentioned above) I could see no necessary reassignments due to schools not being in the same zone and there are calendar options to chose from.
I am not as familiar with other parts of the county and how they will be affected - has anybody noticed these kind of issues in their zone assignments?
choice
Fri, 07/30/2010 - 17:12 — turnerk1One of the biggest complaints -- and rightly so -- of WCPSS parents was that "choice" in Wake County meant many different things depending upon where you live. In some areas "choice" meant that a parent truly had a chance of getting into several different magnet schools and year round schools as well as a traditional base. In other parts of the county there was really no choice at all unless you were INCREDIBLY lucky. This inconsistency only grew worse as more year round schools were filled only by assignment not through a application, and the number of magnet seats did not keep up with growth. 10,000 magnet seats went a lot farther in 1999 when there were about 75,000 students than it does today at 140,000 students and that will only grow worse no matter what happens with the zones. I think anger at this fundamental unfairness is what is driving much of the current events.
It seems to me that the HS zone map provides the same sort of problem as we have now. Some zones would have lots of choices at every level, even up to 2 HS choices. Other zones would have so little choice, I don't think that it would even work. One middle school simply will not fill up one HS. Even a large year round middle school has half the number of seats of a typical HS. What happens when a new middle school opens in a region with one middle school? A huge reassignment would have to happen in order to start to fill the new school because there would only be one school to pull from. Larger zones would provide more real choice and hopefully a more equitable number of choices for parents and more stability when new schools were built in a zone. Isn't that what people want?
zones vs regions
Fri, 07/30/2010 - 13:50 — bluedaisyWhat seems like a long long time ago, Tedesco did an interview with News 14 Carolina where he was quoted saying 18-20 zones, 5 regions. Maybe - he's combining zones at the high school and middle school level into regions for "choice". No matter what, this plan guarantees NO ONE a base school. What's the pulse out there for this fact of controlled choice?
Today's N&O
Sat, 07/31/2010 - 10:36 — bluedaisyToday's N&O Q & A mentions "megazones" which sounds like Tedesco's regions mentioned in my earlier post. I can see it now - a Leesville Elementary and Leesville Middle parent not getting Leesville High - their first choice, and being sent to Sanderson, their 2nd choice, due to overcrowding at LHS because not enough students left there for Enloe or SE Ral High - the unintentional high poverty county wide magnets. But hey - no worries - Tedesco says you'll be happy because you got your 2nd choice. Is the county ready for this mindset?
Scenario
Sat, 07/31/2010 - 16:56 — NWRaleighMomI am not ecstatic about the proposed plan but your particular scenario is extremely unlikely
1. Tedesco says there still be county-wide magnets.
2. More students are bused into Leesville schools than magneted out.
Extremely Unlikely?
Sat, 07/31/2010 - 18:11 — bluedaisyI don't think you are going to end up with as many seats as you think - less than 100 students are being bussed to Leesville from outside the geographic area in the 3 year plan, starting next year. Go look in the 3 year plan on WCPSS yourself.
How many are bused in right
Sun, 08/01/2010 - 10:45 — NWRaleighMomHow many are bused in right now? Again, according to Tedesco, there still be magnets, so Leesville's enrollment is not going to explode overnight.
Study the map
Sun, 08/01/2010 - 14:43 — bluedaisyThe Leesville (middle) base was increased by the new board in their reassignments and # of seats reduced by conversion to traditional - blink - you just grew. The Leesville zone looks to be increased in size vs the 2010-11 base. Blink. You just grew. And the plan won't go into effect until 2012-13. Blink again, you just grew with the housing recovery. 10K+ more students are projected to be in Wake by 2012-13. And you know how great the Leesville School "District" is!! I'm not trying to pick on you, NWRMom, just trying to expand your mind. You and many others have said if the downtown kids went to school closer to home, there would be room for "us". That is not necessarily true. How many you lose to magnets will be directly proportioned to how high poverty these magnets are to begin with. That's a fact. It all boils down to who thinks they belong where. I hope you can see the school from you back window.
East side of zone
Sat, 07/31/2010 - 19:30 — Solon77Southeast side of the zone would end up going to Sanderson as there is no where else for the Northwest kids to go to. The you have a whole contingent currently going to Sanderson that would be closer to Leesville than Sanderson - so this group could be opting for a change, if not now then in the future.
This should be rather interesting to watch.
Yes it will
Sun, 08/01/2010 - 00:47 — bluedaisyYes it will, Solon. Over time, "The Computer" will be flipping these in-between neighborhoods back and forth from Leesville to Sanderson based upon capacities of the 9th grade of each school, vs Growth Management reassigning nodes. What's the difference? These in between neighborhoods can't complain - they got their 2nd choice! With proximity as a driver of the algorithm, neighborhoods all over the county in between schools will be the ones used over and over to "manage growth". Actually, its quite brilliant. I can hear the school board now - "don't complain to us - its the algorithm".
Or better yet
Sun, 08/01/2010 - 11:03 — Solon77Or better yet - "it was your choice".
These maps and Alves'
Fri, 07/30/2010 - 14:30 — danofncThese maps and Alves' presentation are only related by the fact that they were presented at the same meeting.
You shouldn't look at the proposed zone maps and apply his concepts to them.
Key point
Sun, 08/01/2010 - 08:03 — Dove314It's a shame that so many are making the mistake of thinking the zones presented have anything to do with Alves. Would be interesting to know the input of the Duke professor in the design parameters of these zone maps.
Model to Manage Growth - Just an observation
Fri, 07/30/2010 - 13:21 — Solon77The zone concept is to better manage growth and provide for stability. Since it takes years to build a new school, in order to accommodate the feeder pattern one needs to look at the Elementary school enrollment and project out through the High school. In looking at the North/Northeast zones.
Projected Capacity +/-
Wakefield 3765 3217 -548
Wake Forest 4522 4534 12
East Wake 2493 1805 -688
Knightdale 2407 2059 -348
This is somewhat telling in that a new HS is Planned for Rolesville, which would fit in the Wake Forest zone and appears in least need of the capacity. I suppose parents in other zones could request to go to the new HS in Rolesville, but that would surely mean a lot of busing.
Spot node/distance node realignments.
Fri, 07/30/2010 - 13:16 — DrActualFactualI think all zone plans will have some difficulty in realigning the areas that were designated for bussing (spot node) purposes and shipped out to other schools. Those nodes will be brought back to base and contiguous nodes will be put into alignment as well (I hope). I think we fit exactly the scenario you describe in that our current base ES and MS straddle and fall within a different zone than the HS we currently attend. This is a function of the MS feeding into 5 different HS. Our node has been reassigned several times and based on the list of schools they posted by region our node has attended all Apex schools for ES/MS but was reassigned from Apex HS when PCHS opened. They reassigned us over time thru various ES and our current base ES is Turner Creek. Based on our HS assignment we should be going to Mills Park ES or Highcroft ES so that we could feed into Mills Park MS and then PCHS--I hope this will be mopped up as a feeder pattern glitch when the zone allocating is completed. I imagine that there are many similar scenarios to ours that exist. I can think of numerous nearby subdivisions that are contiguous that were assigned based on the date they were built and it is hit/miss all up and down Hwy. 55. (Northern subd. that go to Apex HS and Southern subd. that go to GHHS--they pass each other on the way to schools farther away.) Most subdivisions on our side of Hwy 55 go north for ES/MS/HS we should be aligned to do the same. In our case we have two different area supt. (which may be the reason for some of the academic inconsistencies we have seen.) Ms. Evans stated that she seemed to view the HS version as presenting minimal reassignments--I would think she has a pretty good handle on that since she does those every year. I would think that in the future in our zoned area when a HS gets built and opened they will "peel" off an entire section of that zone as a new draw area and even if kids have to get reassigned they will have the majority of their peers to go with in bulk instead of 10-12 kids sent to a new school alone spread across several grades. Since the perception of many parents has been that WCPSS stunk at long-range planning I wouldn't think there would be much confidence in that planning map, bus too far and inefficiently (no confidence in that transportation map), and have too many area supts. (shoots down the general acceptability level for that map too.) I could be off in my public perception/acceptance view of this--we'll see.
The spot nodes will have to
Fri, 07/30/2010 - 13:59 — magnetParentThe spot nodes will have to be reassigned no matter which map is followed, so I was not even focusing on that for this discussion.
"Since the perception of many parents has been that WCPSS stunk at long-range planning I wouldn't think there would be much confidence in that planning map"
I think we need to separate the two. Okay, lets say they stunk at long-range planning. All the map is doing is providing a boundary around the current assignments such that fewer nodes cross boundaries as I described before. It is still a "choice" model. Many new families may choose to go to a school closer to them but the existing families may want to (choose to) finish out their current school without having to move. It also gives more choices. Change the name from "Planning Region" to something else if that is what it takes to disassociate it from long-range planning.
I would like to hear Ms. Evans reasons why she viewed the HS version as minimal reassignments - that just does not make sense to me.
Regarding adding future schools - don't you think the zones need to start out larger so that you can "peel" off a chunk for a new zone later? If they make them too small, they are going to have to redraw the lines causing the instability that everyone is trying to get away from now.
But more importantly is the limited "choices" in the HS map. An option of 1 is not really a choice. Add to it the uneven distribution of YR calendars, it seems like it will take a lot of churn (turmoil) to even those out.
...
Fri, 07/30/2010 - 14:13 — SideburnsJust curious but... were you ever concerned about the number of choices in the past?
Pft
Fri, 07/30/2010 - 18:09 — magnetParentAs carson said, and I agree, your question really makes no sense. I have pointed this out before, and will once again, if you could please let go of the magnet hate/envy and actually provide some constructive conversation your posts might be worth reading.
But, just to satisfy your curiosity, because you really seem to be infatuated with it, the answer is OF COURSE. Believe me, choosing the magnet route did not come easy. I evaluated all of my options, as any parent would. I applied to many alternatives, including year round, magnet and charter. I even scouted the private school options. In the long run, I would have been happy with all of the options I sought out - including if we had been denied everything we applied to and ended up at our base school. You really just don't get it, do you?
...
Fri, 07/30/2010 - 19:09 — SideburnsI wasn't really asking about the plethora of choices you had for your family -- but rather the number of choices other families in Wake County have had in the past. I now understand that your concern about the choices in a new assignment model are actually about how it affects you alone. So, I agree. In that context, my question makes no sense.
Get over it
Fri, 07/30/2010 - 20:18 — magnetParentYou are really stretching to make such an implication. By explaining the choices I had, which were the same that every parent had, I was detailing how important choices are - to every parent. You had the same plethora of choices. I have said many times before that choices are very important for education That is not to say that a family will get accepted into every one of their choices - I too have been denied access to most of the choices I sought out. I grew up in a school system that had no choice. 1 ES to attend, 1 MS and 1 HS. No options. Here in Wake County we have options. With controlled choice, if they do it right, there are options. You won't necessarily get your first choice, maybe not even your second choice. But they are choices. No different than the choices I made in the past.
One Choice That Was Left Out....
Sun, 08/01/2010 - 15:20 — JanisTangoThe one choice that you left out that many children don't have is to go to a school relatively close to their neighborhood. If it's true that 90% (which I don't believe) of the kids attend school within 5 miles of their home, there are 10% that do not. The 90% get a choice of a 'neighborhood' school by virtue of their base assignment. If the remaining 10% chose a magnet or year round chances are it would be further away! Why do they not get a choice to attend closer to their home if they don't want to go the magnet or year round route?
Choice
Sun, 08/01/2010 - 16:59 — Solon77Good point, the 10% that are assigned further away not by choice should be provided the choice to go to a school relatively close to their neighborhood.
Would you also agree that kids/parents should be given the choice of attending a school outside of their neighborhood even if it not magnet or yr if they believe that school would provide them with a better education opportunity ?
I Believe In Choice...
Sun, 08/01/2010 - 18:08 — JanisTangoI do believe in choice for all families, and by that I mean real choice! If I child wants to go a school that is not in his 'zone' and there is room, then why not. However, I'm realistic in regards to transportation. I don't think it's feasible for WCPSS to provide transportation in this scenario. What the solution would be I don't know. I don't know enough about express busing to see if it would help with this type of situation, but it might. If you don't provide transportation then you cut out a whole segment of the population that can't provide their own! I also would like to see the neighborhoods have some kind of base. I believe if you allow a families in a neighborhood pick their choices, then you could be dealing with the kind of resentment you have today. For example, why did my neighbor get their first choice and I didn't. I'm anxiously awaiting the plan to see how they would deal with all these issues!
Exactly!
Sun, 08/01/2010 - 19:50 — NWRaleighMomI feel exactly the same. Also, if I need to move to another house, I need to know what school my children will be attending, especially for MS/HS.
You won't know what middle & high are your schools - -
Sun, 08/01/2010 - 23:50 — bluedaisyNo one has a base school on this plan!!!! AND, once you get in, and hate the school you are in, you are wait listed for the school you want next. I seriously don't think the entire county - especially the parts that were screaming the loudest - are ready for this much change.
It's A Draft...
Mon, 08/02/2010 - 02:42 — JanisTangoThis is a 'draft' plan! Nothing is set in stone yet! If you don't like something about it send in your comments! I know I will!
In Tedesco's original
Fri, 07/30/2010 - 18:24 — DrActualFactualIn Tedesco's original presentation (a few months back) didn't he say that they might consider letting adjacent zones apply to/between each other? I may be remembering this wrong, but in the case of HS perhaps that what they have in mind.
"You really just don't get
Fri, 07/30/2010 - 18:15 — AngelaWpeople in glass houses (or certain types of metal in this case)......
Huh?
Fri, 07/30/2010 - 18:25 — magnetParentI guess that makes two. Your wasting bits with posts like these. Let's focus on the issues at hand. I don't need all this attention, the kids do.
This doesn't really make
Fri, 07/30/2010 - 15:38 — carson79This doesn't really make sense as a question because we are going from more choices to none in the scenario magnetparent has set up.
And since she is a magnetparent, I would think the answer is yes anyway (has exercised the choice that will be taken away)...
Misleading the public?
Fri, 07/30/2010 - 09:50 — bluedaisyThese maps are no where close to the beginnings of a controlled choice model, as laid out by Mr. Alves. These maps draw from what we use already. But, the public sees these maps the same day Mr Alves presents to the Student Assignment Committee. Is Tedseco trying to dupe the public into thinking this is what Alves proposed? We can speculate the ranges of poverty from zone to zone on these maps, but I'd like to see what the poverty percentages are in these zones. Then, I would like to see a sample map of zones divided up with poverty AND geography used - the "Alves way". If we are going to give controlled choice a shot, then there should be no preconceived notions.
Obviously four maps are not
Fri, 07/30/2010 - 07:19 — WhalerCaneObviously four maps are not 'Controlled Choice' as presented by Mr. Alves because he specifically said zones have to be 'equitable' both demographically and academically. Since this Board has insisted on ignoring those two things, it is obvious these maps do not meet those criteria.
Chairman Margiotta said they have no intention of creating 'high poverty' and 'segregated' schools. As Ronald Regan said, 'trust, but verify'. Actions mean more than words. Put it in the policy, not give us feel good words.
Quoting politicians ....
Fri, 07/30/2010 - 07:46 — AgentPierceWhile we're quoting politicians Whaler, let not forget "the meaning of "is" '.
And, of course, "..... not from around here..." Those last feel good words contributed SO positively to the dialogue. :<(
The difference is that
Fri, 07/30/2010 - 09:31 — danofncThe difference is that Meeker is only in a position to ***** and moan about the assignment policies, whereas Margiotta is actually in a position to influence them.
What either comment "contributes to the dialogue" is meaningless.
"contributes to ...."
Fri, 07/30/2010 - 14:13 — AgentPierceI would argue that Mayor Meeker's infamous comment "contributed" to the dialogue in the same way that gasoline contributes to a fire.
If you or I made such an outrageous statement here, who cares. When the sitting mayor of the primary city makes such a public statement it DOES contribute. Contributions can be positive or negative. Meeker certainly is not the only the only high profile combatant to make an unfortunate and negative comment in this glorious mess.
EXCELLENT MR HUI
Thu, 07/29/2010 - 23:40 — PACK_MIKE77No opinion, just facts. Very helpful website. Good reporting.
The reader can now see for themselves the breakdown.
Mr.Hui
Fri, 07/30/2010 - 09:57 — NWRaleighMomYou mentioned you/wcpss were going to post the 'raw' data per school including how many students are magnet out and how many are bussed in.
I don't think I said
Fri, 07/30/2010 - 10:13 — KeungHui (author)I don't think I said anything about magnet out and bused in. I did say I'd try to post the data from Tuesday's meeting if the district doesn't do so. It's a whole bunch of files so I'm hoping they'll get to it soon.