Is it a higher value for Wake County students to attend their neighborhood school or for students from low-performing nodes to be able to get into a high-performing school?
That issue is at the heart of changes being proposed to bump up the importance of student achievement in the selection process for the new student assignment plan. If implemented, the changes could result in students from low-performing nodes taking away openings at the high-performing schools from the families who live near them.
“We want to make sure that low-performing students and minority students get a good shot at some of these schools,” Democratic board vice chairman Keith Sutton said last week. “We want to make sure the plan is successful. We don’t want to create more high-poverty schools.”
Click here for a list of the high-performing regional-choice seats.
Click here for a list of the regional-choices schools that includes the underenrolled schools. Even though the spreadsheet doesn't include the high-performing middle and secondary schools, I'm told they're on the actual list.
There are no official seat asides in the plan right now. School administrators acknowledge that this could mean that some applicants from low-performing nodes would wind up in an underenrolled regional-school choice instead of one of the high-performing schools.
That wasn't an acceptable option for the Democratic board members.
“There are definitely schools that do better with low-performing children,” new Democratic board member Jim Martin said. ”I don’t think the least selective schools are the ones that are likely to meet that need.”
Fellow new Democratic board member Christine Kushner echoed that concern, particularly in regard to the students from the low-performing nodes who are being displaced from attending magnet schools.
“It’s important that those students who aren’t able to be in a magnet school by proximity do have s real choice," Kushner said. "It’s a moral choice to be able to attend a high-performing school and I think that’s an important factor of this plan.”
The new majority is looking at two ways to tackle the issue.
One option targeting the high-performing schools would move students from low-performing areas above neighborhood students in the selection process. Siblings would still go first but then would come the applicants from the low-performing nodes. This would mean the proximity students would get whatever is left over.
Another possibility for those high-performing schools would be to set aside a fixed percentage of openings. Superintendent Tony Tata said they're looking at the impact of setting aside 15 percent of the seats.
Tata said staff will officially report to the board on Tuesday about the impact and feasibility of implementing those student achievement changes. But he gave some examples last week of how it could impact schools.
"Do we want to go to Olds Elementary and say you don’t get 66 kids or whatever it is for kindergarten?” Tata said. “You’re getting 50 because we’re going to hold 16 seats in that very small school because you’re a regional-choice school.”
Tata also cited Davis Drive Middle, another regional-choice high-performing school. He noted how families from Carpenter Elementary have complained about how the new plan would no longer feed them to Davis Drive Middle. Unless the plan is changed, the Carpenter families would have to apply to go to Davis Drive.
"Are we going to set aside 20-40 seats, now denying Carpenter Village further access to Davis Drive Middle?" Tata told board members.
New Democratic board member Susan Evans said they can create a waiting list for proximity students at the high-performing schools who don't get in because of the set asides. She said they can then release to those on the waiting list any seats not taken by the students from the low-performing nodes.
It's uncertain how many applicants from low-performing nodes will request a regional-choice school.
Tata told board members that the student assignment task force debated the issue for months before deciding not to include set asides. He said they opted for a mix of having applicants from the low-performing nodes go to high-performing schools and underenrolled schools.
"We can do whatever the board wants to do there but it’s a very real tough discussion," Tata said to the board. "You can talk yourself into either direction on that.”
Democratic board chairman Kevin Hill acknowledged that the changes could keep some neighborhood students from getting into high-performing schools.
But Hill also pointed to how it’s an accepted practice that the magnet schools will displace some of the students who live near them.
“We’ve got to make decisions that are in the academic benefit of students,” Hill said.
Republican board members are calling the proposed changes another quota system, using test scores instead of family economic background or race to balance schools. They’re warning that the proposed changes to the assignment plan would result in some students’ being denied a chance to attend their neighborhood schools.
“I can’t imagine parents wanting to lose the option to attend a proximate school in order to put in a quota busing system,” Republican board member John Tedesco said.
Tedesco said the changes are a repackaging of the old diversity policy under a new label.

Comments
Here's Something For Hill To Think About...
Tue, 01/10/2012 - 11:32 — JanisTangoDemocratic board chairman Kevin Hill acknowledged that the changes could keep some neighborhood students from getting into high-performing schools.
But Hill also pointed to how it’s an accepted practice that the magnet schools will displace some of the students who live near them
This statement bothered me initialy, but then I thought about it and wanted to point out that Mr. Hill needs to extend his thinking a bit. It it's OK for kids to be displaced when base seats are freed up in magnets and he is recommending the same thing with high performance schools then with this new choice process would it really be any different if a child is being assigned to their second or third choice. If children don't get into their first choices via the factors that are considered (i.e. proximity, crowding, etc) then how is that different than the magnet 'lottery'. Today when families choose magnets the factors that are considered results in many families not getting their first or second choice or any choice in regards to magnets does it. Just a thought!
Choice instead of forced busing
Mon, 01/09/2012 - 12:32 — ElevenYearsInCaryI'm sure I'm missing something, but doesn't the idea of providing choice through a selection process address the previous issue of "quota busing system" as Tedesco refers to it. In the old model, some number of kids were prospectively assigned to schools outside their neighborhood. In one of the proposed new approaches, the only thing potentially changing is the order of priority in terms of how students that go through the selection process are assigned. The kids aren't being subjected to forced or quota busing -- their parents are opting in, and they're getting a better chance at attending one of the higher-performing schools. Obviously, something has to be done to provide space for those kids, but I don't see that as different from how magnet seats are currently being assigned. It may not be ideal, but it is consistent.
To be clear, I think we've overengineered this entire process. I think we want all schools to be high-performing, but that's just not what we have today. And until we do, everyone will struggle with assignments.
YES!
Tue, 01/10/2012 - 13:43 — snordoneyou nailed the problem and the solution - we need to focus on strengthening our schools first and foremost. this includes all schools educating all children.
ARticle?
Mon, 01/09/2012 - 09:31 — Bob_SconceKeung -- Did you edit this post to remove reference to today's article? (Which, I'm presuming isn't going out today anymore?) When does delaying articles makes sense in the news business? Not trying to be snide -- just don't understand the logic.
The article was supposed to
Mon, 01/09/2012 - 09:54 — KeungHui (author)The article was supposed to run today. There was some late-breaking news that resulted in it being delayed a day but I wasn't informed about that ahead of time.
So...
Mon, 01/09/2012 - 09:58 — Bob_SconceThis is basically for the print edition where running one story may mean using the column-space that was allocated for another?
Late stories do pop up and
Mon, 01/09/2012 - 10:06 — KeungHui (author)Late stories do pop up and the Monday paper is thinner than the others in terms of available space.
“There are definitely
Mon, 01/09/2012 - 09:26 — shearertw“There are definitely schools that do better with low-performing children,” new Democratic board member Jim Martin said.
How do we know when a school is doing better with "low-performing children"? If they're "low-performing" then are they not performing low? If so, then how is any school doing better with them? If a school was doing better with "low-performing children, wouldn't they no longer be "low-performing" and if so, how would we know who they were?
I'm totally confused. I'm sure it's just because Jim is so much smarter than I am.
Schools That Do Better With Low Performing Children
Mon, 01/09/2012 - 10:20 — nriemannThe conclusion stems from looking at differences in the year-over-year growth of children scoring at Level I-II in various schools. Some of those children enjoy good growth at the "high performing" schools but remain "low performing" (i.e. they still score Level I-II) because of where they started. Others do exit the category.
It is of course a contestable assumption that the students enjoy better growth at School A than School B because School A "does better" with them. They might enjoy better growth for other reasons. But it seems likely that schools account for some of the differential.
So...are the "high
Mon, 01/09/2012 - 10:27 — shearertwSo...are the "high performing" schools we're planning to open up placeholders in the same schools that supposedly "do better with low performing students"?
AND...is there any plan whatsoever to do something about the schools that are not doing well with "low performing" students? How are we going to "fix" those schools before we send any more kids to them?
Q&A
Mon, 01/09/2012 - 11:12 — nriemannI do not understand the first question. With respect to the second, Superintendent Tata has a number of such plans, and many of them are being implemented. I do not know if they will work. While it would be nice, I do not believe anyone has suggested that we have the knowhow or the resources to "fix" those schools (i.e. cause them to drive high growth for low performing students) before we send any more low performing children to them.
Afterschool Programs?
Mon, 01/09/2012 - 14:05 — ncarolinagirlIt's been a long time since I've posted, but I read this blog everyday and would like to jump in here. Back when I was in college in Greenville, SC, college students volunteered or earned work study credit at Greenville County after school programs by helping kids with homework, playing games, etc. The one I went to was in a very poor area of town with all minority children, and I heard quite a few stories about daddies in jail and living with grandmothers. The discussion about "how do we fix?" these schools has recently reminded me of this program, and I wonder if Wake County could implement a similar program. We could potentially have an enormous volunteer pool from NC State, Meredith, Peace, etc., and many fraternal/social organizations require some sort of community service hours for membership. How many of these college students receive work study as a part of their financial aid packages? This may be far reaching, but could WCPSS form some partnerships with our local universities to benefit some of our low-performing schools? Google search "Greenville County Schools After School Program" for more info.
NC State
Mon, 01/09/2012 - 14:17 — HereWeGoNC State has this program. They even have a paid staff member to oversee the program.
great idea
Mon, 01/09/2012 - 14:13 — RKCurtrightncarolinagirl, I hope you will send your example to Mr. Tata. Wcpss have started a leaders4wake internship program. Your example sounds like a fantastic way to expand the leaders4wake program so more people could help fill in and help our school system and especially those who need it most.
One more thing
Mon, 01/09/2012 - 14:13 — ncarolinagirlThe After School Program is just one part of their Communities in Schools program in Greenville County, SC that targets at-risk students. If you read more about their events, you'll see that other community groups, such as the Rotary Club and local churches help sponsor some of these events.
ncgirl, It does sound like a
Mon, 01/09/2012 - 14:24 — shearertwncgirl,
It does sound like a great idea/program.
The problem is, the current BOE would rather those children be riding a bus than be available to participate in such a program. It simply does not address the problem they are trying to solve. Their issue is not that poor, at risk children are performing badly in schools, it's that (1) too many of those children in one school can make the test scores look bad and give the appearance they are not doing their jobs and (2), perhaps more importantly, too many of "those" children are attending the schools they want for themselves and their wine and cheese liberal buddies.
Bob answered the meat of it
Mon, 01/09/2012 - 13:48 — shearertwBob answered the meat of it below but let me follow up on you last comment.
So these "bad" schools do exist in WCPSS then, correct?
We're trying to do something about them but we don't have the "resources" or whatever to fix them (this is what you're saying). So....in your mind, it's therefore justifiable to send a kid from neighborhood X proximate to the "good" school several miles over to a school you know is "bad" in order to make room for another kid because that happens to live in "low performing node". Do you not see how that completely undermines the hard work of responsible parents who are trying to do the best for their families, get a decent job, live in a decent neighborhood, etc and rewards the opposite behavior?
it's not about the parents
Mon, 01/09/2012 - 15:16 — EBDarcyShould children who have the misfortunate of getting irresponsible parents be punished for something they have no control over?
There's a question for the ages....
Mon, 01/09/2012 - 15:36 — Bob_SconceIrresponsible parents regularly mistreat their kids. At what point does the government step in and say "We are taking away your right to bring up your children in the manner you see fit?"
There is a strong presumption that parents are the best ones to make choices for their own kids, even when the parents don't seem to be doing a great job at it. Sure, at some point, you take the parents out of the loop. But, that point is individualized -- it takes a judge deciding "This particular parent is not fit, so somebody else needs to make decisions for the child." The school district should not be turning that whole paradigm on its head by presuming that an entire class of parents is unfit simply because they don't react in ways that we would like. Maybe, for example, the parent is illiterate and can't read the materials he's getting about the schools. Maybe they're homeless. There are potentially dozens of reason which do not justify overruling the desires of the parent.
Perhaps they'd rather Johnny
Mon, 01/09/2012 - 15:44 — shearertwPerhaps they'd rather Johnny grow up and be a plumber or a farmer or whatever and put less emphasis on education.
Just more elitist nonsense assuming everyone should live and do as they see fit.
The school system has NO business stepping in and trying to manipulate society in this manner. Its quite offensive when they presume they do.
FYI, we could use some more good plumbers...
Holy Smokes!
Mon, 01/09/2012 - 15:35 — shearertw"It's not about the parents..."
And therein lies 100% of the problem!
When you make it "not about the parents", you enable parents to be bad. Why do you need to be a good parent if the state is going to take care of your children for you, send some money in the mail, food stamps, take a seat at the "good" school away from a "rich" kid?
Life is not fair. When you try and make life "fair" through government intervention, you screw up a number of natural incentives to do the right thing, take care of yourself and you family. It is and endless spiral into the ugly entitlement society we are fast approaching.
Does the "rich" kid whose parents have made all the right choices and have taught them to do well in school and work hard now deserve to be sent to the "bad" school just because they have the "misfortune" of having good parents?
I have news for you.....there is NO government intervention that is going to equalize "bad parenting" vs "good parenting". That is why most of these types of interventions fail and instead simply exacerbate the issues.
Your way of thinking might very well be the source of most of our problems....
First question
Mon, 01/09/2012 - 11:26 — Bob_SconceHe's asking if the set of regional-choice schools is the same set of schools as the schools where low-performing kids do well.
Based on Keung's post, I think the answer is: currently, no. The regional choice schools includes both (a) schools where low-performing kids do well and (b) schools that are under-enrolled. So, some of those students will be placed in schools where they're expected to do better, and others will be placed in schools where they just happen to have a lot of extra space. In other words, the end-result will be about the same as it is now.
Bingo! Stepped away for
Mon, 01/09/2012 - 13:39 — shearertwBingo! Stepped away for minute to work....thanks for clarifying for me.
Why would we advocate for displacing a neighborhood kid for a "low performing kid" at a school that doesn't do exceptionally well with "low performing students"?
Clarifying regional choice (RC) v high-performing (HP) schools
Mon, 01/09/2012 - 14:21 — nmoskalHP is a subset of RC. All HP are RC, but not all RC are HP. RC includes both HP and under-enrolled (UE) subsets. I think the changes with regard to priority and set asides apply only to the HP subset.
One of the factors in determination of HP was growth rate for Level I and II students. I believe schools in bottom half of rankings for growth with those students were automatically excluded from HP designation. That is why we have some Schools of Distinction, which is simply based on overall school EOG proficiency rate, that are not HP designated (they do not get growth out of L I and II students but those students represented a relatively small portion of the student base so did not lower overall school score significantly).
What I am trying to figure out is how this is supposed to work for the HP schools in areas that have an academic mix of proximate nodes including low-performing nodes already + are RC schools for non-proximate low-performing nodes (largely those in E Cary/Crossroads area).
Interesting...How much
Mon, 01/09/2012 - 14:34 — shearertwInteresting...
How much input from a real statistician is being considered with this plan?
If a school has a low number of L1 and II students, how can we be sure the performance of that small sample set is an accurate reflection of the school performance with those students? I'm will to bet, many of the HP choices currently have a low number of L1/LII students to begin with (just a guess). Therefore, how confident are we that the selection of these schools as HP for LP students is statistically valid? Finally, what plan is in place to track how an "HP" school is doing with LP students over time? If after 3 years of poor performance with LP students, will the HP schools lose their status?
Bottom line....why are we continuing down this path of nonsense with 20 years of data showing school assignment as a means to improve ED student performance doesn't work?
"They’re warning that
Mon, 01/09/2012 - 08:55 — mnordberg"They’re warning that the proposed changes to the assignment plan would result in some students’ being denied a chance to attend their neighborhood schools."
Isn't feeder pattern exactly the same thing. They are setting aside a set of seats for feeder patterns and denying parents the opportunity to go their neighborhood (not really neighborhood but closest set of) schools? Either scenario, you are talking about a rule that trumps parental choice and proximity.
If it has the word "choice" in it...
Mon, 01/09/2012 - 10:47 — bpuli9999then the republicans are happy. A vast majority of them have no idea what the "choice" plan is going to do or that it is not a major change from the way things have always been.
Exactly
Mon, 01/09/2012 - 10:45 — EBDarcyThe new feeder patterns mean many students won't attend their most proximate school(s). How is setting aside seats (in some cases all the available seats) for one group okay but not others? Or okay at some schools (magnets) but not others?
We can always count on Tedesco for inflamatory rhetoric can't we? Will someone please tell him that this isn't a neighborhood plan it's a choice plan and he voted for it.
applicants from low-performing nodes
Mon, 01/09/2012 - 07:40 — Bob_SconceIt's uncertain how many applicants from low-performing nodes will request a regional-choice school.
That's the real question. Let's pretend that they want their proximate schools and not the regional-choice schools. What does the district do in 2013?
so
Mon, 01/09/2012 - 07:20 — AngelaWsame game, different name....
anyone surprised?
Surprised? Heck no.
Mon, 01/09/2012 - 11:03 — FSandYOUSame kind of people are back in control that forced communities apart with their needless 22 school conversions, the same kinds of lies, the same stupidity and other than their names it is certainly the same kind of game to them.
So I wonder if these same kind of people understand that parents start ranking choices a week from tomorrow?
Since they have shown no timely concern to decide on what they're going to do, or not, my guess is like their previous buddies they don't care and will decide after we do our part.
Yep, same game and no surprise there.
Of course.... Is anyone
Mon, 01/09/2012 - 09:19 — shearertwOf course....
Is anyone talking about what the H we're going to do with these supposedly "low performing schools"?
This entire discussion assumes the school itself is the problem, or in the case of "high performing schools, the savior. If we have "low performing schools" in WCPSS, why aren't we talking about how we're going to fix them? Why aren't we talking about replacing the principal(s) or "bad" teachers at those schools? Why are we sending ANY kids to these "bad" schools?
As we all know, the school itself is not the problem which is why they're not talking about that. So, if the school itself is not the problem, why the H do we think sending kids to a different school is going to help them in any way whatsoever? After 2 decades of playing that game there has been no improvement in the performance of these kids!!!!!!!!!!! This is truly the definition of insanity. Once again, for the Democrats, this is all about appearances and keeping black kids out of DT/N Raleigh schools. Let's create the "appearance" that we're for low income and minority students by "giving" them "better" school choices than the rest of WC parents. Let's create the "appearance" that we have "no bad schools in WC". All the while, ED performance will not improve or more likely decline and a select few (mostly rich white) WC parents will continue to have free access to elite private-like schools funded by tax payers. Anyone who cannot see this is not objectively looking at the history of this policy.
transparency
Mon, 01/09/2012 - 10:50 — JSBinNCThey should be publishing the test results by subgroup for each of those schools listed there as "high performing" so that there is an absolute clear picture of where high and not so high performance is happening.
I think the primary issue
Mon, 01/09/2012 - 10:37 — mnordbergI think the primary issue here is how kids are assigned. School board should get out of the game both sides are playing. It should be a pure choice system with parents getting a choice of a set of schools at ES, MS and HS that they pick from with all parents getting a choice of schools that are roughly the same. (I would like to see a parent pick any school in the county but that is probably way too impractical in implementation). Any playing with node assignments, feeder patterns, prioritization of nodes, etc is about the school board pandering to one side or the other. If too many parents want in a school, either expand that school (long term) and short term it is about a random draw of people to get in (no priority crap they are doing now).
Then to the issue of fixing schools, once the school board has zero input into the assignment plan they can focus on directing the system on fixing bad schools. Unfortunately, to do that right it is going to be political incorrect what would have to happen such as pulling problem kids out of class and putting them elsewhere, pulling low performing kids out and giving them remedial eduction instead of just getting further behind in normal class, and holding more kids back until they are ready for the next grade. All of that requires the school board out of assignments and focused on working with individual school staff on plans for each school.
This Is Apples and Oranges Isn't It?
Mon, 01/09/2012 - 10:32 — JanisTangoDemocratic board chairman Kevin Hill acknowledged that the changes could keep some neighborhood students from getting into high-performing schools.
But Hill also pointed to how it’s an accepted practice that the magnet schools will displace some of the students who live near them
These two statements don't make sense. This is an apples and oranges comparison isn't it?
Just another way for them to do quota based busing and not deal with the real problems of why some schools are not performing and underenrolled! Geezzz!