It might not produce any changes in the proposed bell schedules for Wake County schools this fall, but look for a discussion Feb. 21 on the impact of school start times on high school students.
School board member John Tedesco wants staff to talk about the sleep study research that indicates it's better to have later start times for older students.
Also look for a discussion on traffic concerns raised by school board member Jim Martin that later start times for high school students could be dangerous.
The majority of Wake's high schools now start at 7:25 a.m. There's been talk over the years, citing the national research that teens need more sleep, to start the day later.
Some Wake high schools were allowed to start at 8:05 a.m. But the proposal would move those schools to 7:25 a.m. this fall.
One of the stumbling blocks for making a change in the past is that staff said that the three-tier system means that having later times for high schools means having to go with earlier times for elementary schools. Parents of elementary school students have not been happy about the greater prospect of their kids waiting at the bus stop in the darkness.
But with the new proposal shifting Wake to a two-tier system, that may not be as much of a problem.
“One of the conversations we've talked about a lot over the last couple of years is the impact of learning in the classroom on some students based on age with start times at schools," Tedesco said at Tuesday's work session. "We’ve had several conversations that high school students have tended to do better with later start times and some of the earlier start times would better serve the elementary students, and we’ve had that conversation at a couple of different points.
Would there be opportunity to bring some more discussion to the table on the 21st about that? While you’re looking at this now, if you’re going to make such a monster so to speak overhaul of the bell schedule, is there opportunity now for us to look at starting some of our high schools a little later in a way that might produce academic benefits for our kids?"
Don Haydon, chief facilities and operations officer, said they can discuss both the academic and cost impacts of later start times for high school students. He also asked if the board wanted staff to discuss other issues at the next meeting.
“If we’re going to talk about the high school start times, we need a real traffic safety analysis," Martin responded. "I have a young driver in my household, and it’s a whole lot safer to drive at 6:30 in the morning than it is 7:30 in the morning.”
“Yes indeed," chimed in school board member Susan Evans.
“What about 9 o’clock or 9:30?” asked school board member Christine Kushner.
“Nine o’clock makes it even worse if you’ve been on the roads," Martin answered.
Martin said that at 6:30 a.m. “the roads are empty.”
“I can almost guarantee you’ll probably have more accidents if we shift high school start times later," Martin added.
Tedesco, who lives in Garner, responded that in his part of the county it's jammed on I-40 at 6:30 a.m. with the "Johnston Jam." He said the roads are empty by 8 a.m. He said traffic in the morning depends on the part of the county you live in.
Martin responded that's why you need a traffic analysis.
Comments
HS Bell Schedules
Mon, 02/13/2012 - 10:48 — jedaviHow many high schools require students to come in before school for make-up work or extra help? All of my daughter's teachers at Millbrook require this to happen before school they have other coaching or administrative duties after school. Today I had to have my daughter at school at 6:45 am to make up a test she miseed while she was sick. Expecting a child to be ready to take a test at 6:45 am is absolutely crazy!
flip times
Fri, 02/10/2012 - 16:41 — louiselee44This has been another one of my "this-has-got-to-change" topics forever. I have copies of emails I sent to school board members in 2001, 2004, etc. about this very issue (not to mention speaking at plenty of school board meetings)!
I remember all too well when they changed dismissal time from 3:00 to 3:45 at my daughter's elementary school in 2001. That might sound petty to some, but families were torn up about it - and they had reason to be.
I don't have time to type much here, but I have accumulated lots of information that points to the undeniable fact that Wake County, with their bell schedules, is/has been robbing students of one proven (over and over) advantage to academic performance. Yes, I know all of the arguments pro and con, some of which are quite legitimate, but the evidence is far too overwhelming in favor of earlier start times for younger students and later start times for those in HS. I will definitely share with board members (and others) again. Also, they've ignored cost-saving initiatives in the past, and now want to do this? I can't even believe they're considering it.
However, they have shown that they will go this route unless lots of people speak out against it ( although even then, they can do what they want, as we all know).
Right Time
Fri, 02/10/2012 - 19:29 — stepbystepI hope 2012 will finally be the right year to move an examination of flipped schools forward and to action.
PLEASE...
Fri, 02/10/2012 - 21:39 — louiselee44Email, make phone calls, etc., and urge others to do the same. I think this will be a hard sell since they've fought the switch for so long.
Louise--you never cease to
Fri, 02/10/2012 - 17:45 — jenmanLouise--you never cease to amaze me with your dedication. Please do share the info once again with the school board members.
ES start times
Fri, 02/10/2012 - 13:33 — jenandjonAlthough internally I cringe at ES earlier start times (my kids hate getting out of bed at any time and I like having my MS/HS home before my ES child arrives in case mommy is running late from work)... that being said... I do think flipping the ES & HS start times would benefit both groups of kids. I am an adult. I'll manage the logistics. Student achievement should be at the forefront of this discussion, not what's best for Mr. Martin's family. If your child isn't a good driver in rush hour. Don't let him/her drive. Let him/her ride the bus. It'll be ok. Same point as teens up late gaming & texting. Here's a unique idea. Take the game and the phone away at a reasonable hour and tell them to go to bed. Be a parent. My dad used to tell me..."You don't like the rules, tough. My house, my rules. You can set your own rules in your own house. Till then, you do what I tell you to." Great life lesson dad. Use it with your grandkids everyday.
Fantastic Idea!
Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:12 — midtownmomThe positives greatly outweigh the negatives in later start times for high school students. Are we making decisions for the convenience of parents, sports and part time jobs OR for student achievement? If it's student acheivement then it's a no brainer, flip flop the start times, esp. if we go to a mostly two tiered bus system.
Seen this before....
Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:11 — Bob_SconceWhen the topic was discussed previously, the trigger's never been pulled. The argument usually boils down to this: "If you make high schools start later and get out later, then there are a bunch of low-income students who won't be able to go to school and do their after-school jobs which are helping to support their families. So, by doing something intended to help students achievement, you are just giving students a reason to drop out of school."
On top of that are the arguments athletic practices and other after-school activities. And then the kicker is the never-ending stream of parents who complain about how the change will upset their well-crafted schedules and what about their snowflakes for whom no force of nature will allow them to actually wake up later, etc....
Personally, I think it's a great idea. But, if it's going to happen, then the board needs to be prepared for some serious opposition.
Change is hard. It is a shared sacrifice
Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:53 — RKCurtrightI agree. I also hope the discussion stays focused on the reason for flipping the schedule--Student Achievement. The discussion will get bogged down on issues of work, adjustments, change,convenience, fear, and other topics that are important to parents .It is all valid and every voice is worth hearing.
Maybe the discussion just needs to happen on a deeper level and there be movement in this direction. It begins with a larger awareness for students so they can take this matter into their own hands.
Any proposed change creates controversy. Change in itself is hard on families. For the bell changes to happen it will require families to be willing to face their fears and sacrifice by making adjustments in order to possibly help students get the rest they need and bell changes that will save our school system money.
Flipping the es and hs bell times also comes down to a multidimensional effort. Students must meet halfway by taking on the responsibility and then the parents will most likely be willing to sacrifice whatever they can so that teens can get the sleep they need. Studies also show that teen’s texting and gaming at night contributes to sleep deprivation. This goes back to teens being involved, responsible with their life choices and understanding the choices they make effects them in many ways. Texting and games are addictive and should be part of the discussion so that teens are aware and smart about putting electronics down and get some sleep.
Families will, again, sacrifice for the students welfare if everyone contributes to making the solution be about improved academics.
Wcpss, Tata, and our BOE can research, listen, and make suggestions. It ultimately comes down to whether research can show it is worth it and the public is willing to help make our school system and our students more successful.
If we focus on what is best for the students and the reality of cost the answers are pretty plain.
Good opportunity
Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:02 — stepbystepMr. Tata seems to be in an excellent position to move a flipped bell system forward. He will need a lot of good PR, which I think he's very capable of managing. I hope he has the courage to get a serious examination of the idea moving on Feb. 21.
I also hope the discussion stays focused on the reason for flipping the schedule--Student Achievement, which is WCPSS's responsibility. I hope the discussion won't get bogged down in issues of convenience, fear, and other topics that are not WCPSS's responsibility and relate more to parental choice and family decisions. I'm a big believer in sports and extra-curricular activities, but I don't think their schedules, etc. should take precedence over student achievement. And yeah, I know they can be related. But still, let's look at what the data says.
Two thoughts on early practices, etc. Isn't there brain research that says physical activity gets the brain ready to learn more effectively? If that's true, maybe an early practice schedule could actually be an additional advantage. Also, surely there are school systems that have elementary schools starting before MS and HS. Maybe even Chapel Hill? (not sure about that, though). Anyway, I bet we could learn a lot about logistics and handling difficult scenarios from school systems that have been doing this a while.
And if parents are unhappy about the wide range in bus and start times, start asking those who hold the purse strings for more money to support your desire!
yes
Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:28 — EBDarcyI agree with you that sports and convenience concerns should be secondary to academics as a rationale for a bus schedule.
Looking at the handout there are 5 ES currently starting at 7:45 and a bunch of middle schools start at 7:30.
Early start...
Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:43 — JSBinNCMine are in one of the 7:45 ES starts - it was an adjustment at first but we love it now. The benefit of earlier release for them gives tons of daylight hours for playing, homework and activities - priorities to us having younger kids.
WCPSS does need to look at academic data and other factors too though - we (our school) tend to have a lot of late students which also impacts instruction time. Early start schools sometimes struggle to get breakfast into kids that qualify and use breakfast service at school... that's going to be more prevalent at the ES level than higher grades because many MS and HS don't ask for meal support due to perceived stigma. Generally speaking our test scores are less than stellar - there are lots of factors that support achievement and fatigue/etc is one of them. I mostly agree that HS kids would benefit greatly from later start times, and younger kids are easier to get going earlier in the AM... but hopefully they really analyze as much as possible so choices are truly as informed as possible...
There was another point in the article about "empty" roads at 6:30 AM being better for teen drivers etc - I thought that interesting and a weird point to make - the roads may be (emphasis on may) be quieter but the driver is potentially still half asleep? I think that's a pretty lame argument personally.
whether to drive
Thu, 02/09/2012 - 15:46 — stepbystepThere was another point in the article about "empty" roads at 6:30 AM being better for teen drivers etc - I thought that interesting and a weird point to make - the roads may be (emphasis on may) be quieter but the driver is potentially still half asleep? I think that's a pretty lame argument personally.
And really, isn't that a family decision about whether the student can handle driving in potentially more traffic? That's just the kind of sidebar that I hope won't derail the real question--What is best for student achievement in WCPSS?
Totally. I agree.
Thu, 02/09/2012 - 16:30 — JSBinNCTotally. I agree.
7:25 is too early for High School
Thu, 02/09/2012 - 12:38 — jedaviI completely agree that 7:25 is too early and that's only part of the story. Many of these teenagers are out at or before 6 am wiaitng for a bus to a base school. In my case the bus comes at 6:10 for a base high school 6 miles away and we are the 6th or 7th stop on the route. (It arrives even before the Ligon / Enloe magnet bus rolls through.) We've opted to drive in as we can leave the subdivision at 6:55 and still arrive well before the 7:25 bell. I believe that no bus route should start before 6:30 am.
prevention=progress
Thu, 02/09/2012 - 12:02 — RKCurtrightI like that wcpss is becoming more preventive and progressive rather than just being reactionary.
There are valid reasons to change the start times for hs students & there are just as many reasonable comments from others that it is not a good idea.
The bottom line is that teens are sleep deprived and it is an excellent issue to create discussion now, and especially in 8th grade and continue at all our high schools.Teens are at an age where they need to be involved in the discussion, taking ownership in their choices, and even be the ones moving this along.
Parents nagging them to go to bed at a decent time rarely works at my house. Teens are almost adults, therefore need to take on this responsibility for themselves and start the discussion at school, do their own analysis, research, and decide if this is an issue that needs to continue to be challenged.
There a many factors that exasperates sleep deprivation in teens. Early start time does not help. There are plenty of experts with books written that would love to be invited to our high schools to discuss this issue in detail with students.A large part of the solution to sleep deprivation is to give teens a deep understanding of how sleep can make or break your day. Encourage them to get involved in improving their school, work, home, sleep life balance.
Melatonin rises in their bodies between 11pm and 8am, so getting up at 6am means they need to be going to bed at 9pm. If physiological factors keep teen up until 11 they will be up until 11, IMO.
If teens are now getting home from school by 2:30,( unless they have band, sports, clubs) they then have 6 hours to: have some down time, do light household chores, possibly work, eat dinner, shower, and do homework before getting to bed.
(3-4 hours of homework is too much homework. Projects should be done in school in teams. Bringing school work home contributes to the lack of sleep teens are getting.
Lack of sleep affects teen’s performance, moods, behavior, stress level… This can lead to over eating, depression, relying on caffeine, car accidents, bad life choices,etc.
The conversation needs to start with High Schools addressing this issue with their students by having a great speaker share studies, health effects, etc. High School students could do an in-school project about just this subject.
Oh yeah..... a speaker
Thu, 02/09/2012 - 16:14 — exYank_WCprinto explain to high school students what is good for them and/or an in-school project (in what subject was that??). LOL. Is that after the assembly that tells them not to drink and drive, or after the discussion that explains that drinking 5 sodas a day is not good for you or the announcement that eating pizzas and fries everyday isn't good for you.
But you are right they are almost adults, but THEY ARE NOT ADULTS. What happened to just saying "go to bed at 10 o'clock!!...Put your cell phone on the kitchen table because the world will not end if you can't talk on it, and if the computer is turned on after 10 you lose it for x days. Want to know what is wrong with education and probably this country...that junk starts in kindergarden and by high school they leave them alone while they go away for a weekend. Parents abdicate their responsibilty to be parents. "My child acts up in kindergarden because he is bored or is ADD..the teacher yelled at my child...." Good God give me a break
Although I do believe that melatonin and natural sleep...
Thu, 02/09/2012 - 16:50 — midtownmomschedules play a part in a teenagers sleep time, I totally agree about the electronics. My child has a leather file box downstairs that the phone and ipod have to be put in at night. He has to turn tv and all other electronics off at a certain time each school night and can choose to do something like play cards or read. He still can't go to sleep early, but it helps immensely.
6 of one
Thu, 02/09/2012 - 10:18 — turnerk1half dozen of the other .... I think there are strong arguments for and against flipping the start times. Though high schoolers are more alert later in the day, it would make after school activities, jobs and getting homework done by a decent hour more difficult. I remember last time this was considered, many high schools were talking about doing after school activities before school, which meant that many kids would be getting up early anyway. Little kids are generally better earlier in the day, but I wouldn't be comfortable with my ES waiting for the bus at 6:00 am in the dark. Then of course there are all the businesses and families who count on high school labor in the afternoon. I just wish that the two start times weren't so extreme -- 7:25 is so early, and 9:25 is awfully late.
I agree about the
Thu, 02/09/2012 - 16:13 — jenmanI agree about the extremes. The tiered system saves us money but it makes the start times less than ideal.