How worried should the Wake County school system be about how the new student assignment plan is impacting the magnet schools?
As noted in today's article, the Democratic board members expressed concern Tuesday about the sharp decline in magnet applications. They also raised concerns that not enough academically identified students got accepted into Carnage and Ligon middle schools, which operate the AG Basics magnet theme.
“It seems to me that demand for magnets has gone down by half,” said new Democratic school board member Christine Kushner in remarks to staff members. “I’m concerned about that decline. I hope it’s something you are paying attention to.”
If you haven't noticed it yet, Wake includes info on school-by-school results, where the placed students came from and magnet applications by school over the time. Click here for the info.
It's hard to compare with past years though. For instance, Wake doesn't list the rejections by grade. Also, Wake doesn't list what elementary school the kindergarten students would have come from now that they've eliminated base schools.
Staff gave a variety of reasons for why the number of applications fell from 8,469 for the 2011-12 school year to 4,296 for the 2012-13 school year.
* More than 80 percent of magnet families have said they picked the program for stability. Now families can get that stability with the feeder patterns for the proximity choices.
* More than 1,800 current magnet students were pre-assigned to magnet schools for sixth- and ninth-grades without having to apply, as they would have in the past if they wanted to stay in the program.
* Under the new plan, families who live near a magnet school are no longer able to submit a magnet application for that school. Instead, they’ll apply via the application process that started this month for the proximity round.
* Families may have been discouraged from applying because for the first time the number of available seats were listed and some schools had few openings.
* Families may have taken a “wait and see” approach because of the new plan.
One reason staff didn't give is that families may not have liked the feeder patterns for the magnets. For instance, it seems that magnets that feed into Southeast Raleigh High saw a bigger drop in applicants than those feeding into Enloe High.
Staff told board members they're monitoring the application process as part of their ongoing review of the assignment plan.
Democratic board members Jim Martin and Susan Evans also raised questions about preliminary data that would indicate a drop in the number of AG students at Carnage and Ligon. They said they're concerned that AG students aren't getting into the program.
“What are we doing to address the high-end students, to make the sure the high-end students don’t get disadvantaged?” Martin asked.
Staff said part of the reason at Ligon is the school is too overcrowded so they're cutting back on new applicants.
As for Carnage, Martin again brought up his concern that the Walnut Creek students feeding into his son's magnet schools are taking away magnet spots. He said that it also appeared that the Walnut Creek students could lower Carnage's performance composite.
Republican board member John Tedesco said Martin was presuming that Walnut Creek students will lower Carnage’s overall academic performance. He said that the scores are based off what the students did at their old schools and that he expects they'll do better at Walnut Creek.
“It shows bias towards the students themselves, which I think is unfair,” Tedesco said to Martin.
Staff said they're monitoring the situation and are developing contingency plan. One plan is giving AG students on the magnet wait list priority for any openings that emerge at Carnage and Ligon after families opt out of the feeder.
But Martin and staff got into it over his perception that they weren't being proactive enough.
“I’m equally concerned about the high numbers of AG Basics students that won’t get into a program,” Martin said.
When Martin persisted, Superintendent Tony Tata said: “We are talking past each other. I am not saying, ‘Let’s wait and see.’"
Comments
Magnet applications and Carnage - My two cents
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 15:10 — jenandjonOur family and many others in a similar situation, did not apply for Carnage AG Basics due to the limited number of seats. We applied to Ligon instead. I will be upset if they open up additional AG Basics seats at Carnage without allowing everyone to apply for those seats. I sympathisize with parents who are fed up being told one thing and then have the rug pulled out from under them.
Unless the # of pre-assigned AG Basics 5th graders from Fuller going to Carnage is much higher than the # of pre-assigned AG Basics 5th graders from Hunter going to Ligon, I agree that the culture/dynamic of Carnage is going to change (14 AG Basics 6th graders admitted vs. 119 at Ligon). I was told that the limited # of seats at Carnage was due to the Walnut Creek feeder pattern. The BOE better monitor this closely.
IMO, achievement should be the highest priority in AG Basics magnet program acceptance. The stronger the need, the greater the priority. That would help some of those who are high-performing students in low-performing nodes... and those kids are some of those that need the program the most.
As a follow-up, we did get into Ligon and are looking for families to carpool with from Apex/Cary area.
Ligon
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 18:59 — HereWeGoThe Ligon PTA helps coordinate car pools, so if you call the Ligon office they can get you in touch with the PTA Car Pool coordinator.
Ligon carpool
Thu, 01/26/2012 - 11:52 — jenandjonYeah... unfortunately everybody that's on the carpool list right now is from N.Raleigh area. Maybe the demographics will change this year... hopefully.
? about Ligon
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 10:56 — EBDarcyKeung, looking at the list posted by WCPSS it appears that a large number of students were admitted to Ligon for 7th grade. More than all the other magnet MSs. Is that a typo? Everyone I know who applied for either 7th or 8th grade told me the application said 5 or less seats available. They can't know at this stage who is planning to leave via the choice lottery. Did they decide to add more seats for next year?
That's what it says in the
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 22:01 — KeungHui (author)That's what it says in the hard copies they handed out. If you add up the individual grade levels you get 207, which is the sane number listed on two sheets for Ligon.
I was wondering the same
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 14:02 — jenmanI was wondering the same thing.
Drop in AG students at Ligon?
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 10:19 — ElevenYearsInCaryI don't understand this statement at all - -"Democratic board members Jim Martin and Susan Evans also raised questions about preliminary data that would indicate a drop in the number of AG students at Carnage and Ligon. They said they're concerned that AG students aren't getting into the program."
When we applied through the magnet selection process to the Ligon AG program, the application numbers showed about twice as many applicants as there were AG seats. (There were separate GT seats which could be applied for). If twice as many kids applied as there were seats, then presumably every available seat was filled because there is no way to decline a seat except by applying through the next round in the selection process.
The only way there would be fewer kids in the AG program at Ligon is if they opened fewer AG seats to begin with. It would have nothing to do with the number of applications since there were twice as many applicants as seats.
This is a joke
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 10:18 — betsylstewartNot applying for magnets? My daughter is a straight A, AG student at East Wake Middle. I have applyed every year since 5th grade for her to go to Ligon, a school for AG kids. We didn't get in. My middle school has NO AG program. I want to know who I have to pay for my daughter to get into a magnet school, and into a AG program. Or better yet, make all the schools the same, like Ligon and Carnaige. That way, every child in Wake County can have the opportunity to have an equal education, not just the magnet schools.
East Wake...Yep that
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 10:22 — starsonoursEast Wake...Yep that explains why you have never gotten a magnet assignment. Your child was needed to improve the statistics for East Wake. Your child as an individual had to be sacrificed for the good of the school.
Thanks
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 10:25 — betsylstewartI figured that. BUT not anymore. I'll physically move to another county to get her out of there.
This is something I have
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 14:01 — jenmanThis is something I have been fighting against for several years. We should all have equal access to the magnet schools. We are all paying for them and we are all making sacrifices for them--we should all have an equal shot at them. Please write to the school board to let them know that this rigged lottery is unfair.
That is one reason why the
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 14:23 — tropicalgirlThat is one reason why the feeder patterns do not work for magnets. Current ES and MSmagnet students don't have to apply for MS and HS magnets - they automatically get those seats - great if you want to go there, not so great if you don't and definitely not great for those outside the magnet system who want a fair shot at getting their kids in. I think even under the old system, magnet kids got priority as they moved up and I never thought that was fair - it means you had to hit the lottery in kindergarten to ever benefit.
But how will you sell
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 13:02 — FSandYOUyour home during these troubled times? Especially when you'll have to answer the potential buyers questions like, so where is our school and can you tell us about it?
Let us know how that works out for you and maybe share you secrets if you do/can sell. I know many who would like to do the same, but when the questions come up from the the potential buyer about schools that's the last the seller hears from them.
how does this work
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 10:09 — EBDarcy"... families who live near a magnet school are no longer able to submit a magnet application for that school. Instead, they’ll apply via the application process that started this month for the proximity round."
Have they explained how this works? If all the seats were filled during the magnet lottery the only seats that might be available would be those of children who leave via the choice lottery. But there is a waiting list at almost all magnets and parents were told any empty seats would be filled by those on the waiting list. Are those who apply via the choice round just added to the waiting list?
Maybe I'm missing something here....
Not sure this is the answer
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 11:12 — nmoskalBut I assumed that number a magnet applicant vs proximity seats was based on magnet/proximity % for Group 1, 2 or 3, respectively, based on the approved plan and then magnet applicants are only applying for the % seats allocated for magnet students and proximity students only apply for the seats allocated for proximity. That way they would end up with desired magnet v proximity mix per the plan.
would both seats be held open?
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 11:41 — EBDarcyI hadn't thought about that aspect of it, thanks for responding.
What happens if all the proximity seats are not taken? Or all the magnet seats? (Unlikely I know, just asking a hypothetical question.) Would they be offered to children wait listed from the other applicant pool?
Found it
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 12:20 — nmoskalBased on my reading of plan, I think it is supposed to work how I assumed. See page 19 and 20 of the plan under proposal archive from main assignment page. Sounds like the respective seats would be held open and they explain the reasoning.
thanks
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 13:09 — EBDarcyI'll go back and read that section.
Martin & AG
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 08:11 — Bob_Sconce“What are we doing to address the high-end students, to make the sure the high-end students don’t get disadvantaged?” Martin asked.
That's a good question. I know that AG enrichment for my younger child (at a base school) has dropped off dramatically this year. Unfortunately, I think Martin has magnet myopia and forgets that most of the district's AG students are in base, not magnet, schools.
[Incidentally, why is it now 'AIG' and not just 'AG'? ]
I can't see how gifted
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 08:26 — finalfrontierI can't see how gifted students can be provided adequate opportunities at every school. Desirable to do so, undoubtedly, but resource constraints dictate otherwise.
So...
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 08:32 — Bob_SconceSo, my kids don't get decent AG instruction because the magnets are hogging all the resources? Some kids get riches while others get practically nothing? Wouldn't it be more equitable to balance things out a little bit more?
I am in support of equitable
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 08:51 — finalfrontierI am in support of equitable offerings (every kid deserves a fair chance) but I expect we would have capacity issues at some schools with that approach. Secondly, in the spirit of equitable offerings across the system, resource constraints could dilute offerings to the extent the program becomes defunct for all practical purposes.
Why not just set up...
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 10:55 — bpuli9999an entrance test for all magnet seats? That would definitely be the simplest way to go. But then all the whining about how "my child is exceptionally brilliant but does perform well on tests" will pop up.
So I Guess You Are...
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 08:57 — KevPerdueall for changing the entry requirements for magnet schools. Today not all kids have an equal shot. I will expect to hear from you at the next board meeting about the unfairness of the magnet lottery! You'd better get to writing your speech!
I am all for changing the
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:20 — finalfrontierI am all for changing the entry criteria. It's unfortunate that a top ranked school system doesn't have a better plan than issuing lottery tickets.
Staff gave a variety of
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 07:53 — jeffrey1Staff gave a variety of reasons for why the number of applications fell from 8,469 for the 2011-12 school year to 4,296 for the 2012-13 school year.
* More than 80 percent of magnet families have said they picked the program for stability. Now families can get that stability with the feeder patterns for the proximity choices.
There's your answer right there. Just about every magnet family that I have ever met (especially in Western Wake) chose a magnet primarily because of stability. Everyone said that once they were accepted, stability brought them the "peace of mind" that no other non-magnet could provide.
I've applied to magnet
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 11:06 — CaryMomof4I've applied to magnet schools for the past 6 years, not for stability, but to get a more challenging program for my AG student. I did not apply this year because I was told that if I applied I would lose my pre-assigned spot. If I did not get placed in a magnet school I would HAVE to enter the choice lottery and may or may not get that assignment back. With less than 5 spots available in our AG magnet school options, it wasn't a chance I was willing to take. If I had not had the information that fewer than 5 spots were available and thought I maght have a chance to get in, or if I was guaranteed to retain my previously assigned spot if I was not chosen for the magnet program I would have applied.
That's wrong
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 11:18 — Bob_SconceDon't know who told you that, but you only lose your spot if you get into the magnet program, not if you apply. From the FAQ at the assignment site:
Will a current WCPSS student who decides to participate in the magnet selection process lose the seat they already have?
Any student who participates in the magnet selection process and is selected will be assigned to that school. This assignment will take the place of their current assignment. A student who is not selected will placed on the waitlist for their first choice school and will maintain their current assignment.
I never saw that
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 11:40 — CaryMomof4I was told that by both a principal at one of the application schools and the data manager at our elementary school. I did try to look it up on the website and never saw this, but it was around mid-November when I pre-registered my kindergartners that I was told this and was looking on the site for more info, so it may have been before they posted it.
With 3 younger kids and all 4 in year-round, the wait list could have been problematic as well. If she got pulled in from the wait list after the choice period had ended (slim chance but there's no opportunity to decline) I would have missed the opportunity to choose traditional schools for the younger kids and ended up with kids on different calendars.
Your sample is...
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 10:57 — bpuli9999is definitely not representative of the population then.
Stability, academics,
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 08:21 — finalfrontierStability, academics, calendar, and diversity were the factors. Now that stability is gone as a USP (and rightfully so), and with academics likely deteriorating given the slide in AG population, the WCPSS magnet system should be on life support fairly soon. Mission accomplished?
Not sure I understand the AG population point
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 10:26 — nmoskalAG Basics is only one program of the various magnet program offerings and the few schools that have that program also have GT programs. Hardly seems to be the doom or driver of the entire magnet program. How many AG Basics students are there and what % of total magnet students do they represent?
AG Basics makes no sense as an ES program, although it is one, as entry at those schools is almost all at K before kids are AG identified. It appears not to be a HS program. Carnage and Ligon per demographic reports in 2010 combined had 1,069 out of a total 9,753 total MS AG students in wcpss or about 11% of total AG students. I don't even understand why people think it is a good idea to treat 11% of this particular population differently than the other 89%.
AG
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 10:50 — EBDarcyA friend with a child at Ligon told me 60% of the students are AG, the rest are in the GT program. So while it's a small percentage of the total WCPSS AG population they represent over half the population at that particular school. Of course many students can apply for both, meaning an AG student could apply under the AG category but because all the spaces are filled they get accepted as a GT student. I know of several kids in that situation for next year.
I agree with you that AG basics elementary schools makes no sense since Wake doesn't do testing till 3rd grade. Does anyone know what happens if a child attends an AG Basics ES but doesn't get AG identified during the testing process? If their school feeds into Carnage or Ligon they are guaranteed a spot but do they get an AG or GT spot?
Don't know the answer, but good questions
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 11:54 — nmoskalYou bring up a good point regarding tha AG v GT. So 59% are AG identified, but we don't know how many are in AG Basics v GT or how many are magnet applicants, although presumably a relatively high % due to underrepresentation of ED and minority students in AG. Do the AG identified GT students get the exact same programming as the AG Basics students? I was told to apply my child as AG Basics only. Carnage was about 45%, but there are also a number of non-magnets in that range, as well as magnets with much lower %s. That's why I don't understand this public discourse that makes it sound like magnet doom due to AG. The schools are still getting more applications than openings and they IMO are still attractive due to GT program regardless of AG Basics. It is my understanding that the AG Basics piece means you take class just with AG kids but only if you are strong or very strong need. There are plenty of kids with that ID that don't get separate classes or much AG at all in nonmags.
Maybe I'm missing some key info but this specific concern about AG Basics seems a little self-
Because Martin's son is a
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 10:44 — starsonoursBecause Martin's son is a member of the 11%....
Really Mr. Tedesco? If the
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 07:46 — finalfrontierReally Mr. Tedesco? If the perception isn't grounded in reality, I am curious as to why we need an ED task force. Or why WC needs extra funding. Why not put out the AG numbers for Carnage and Ligon, before and after the new plan? Or, why don't we go ahead and let applicant students at Carnage have the option of falling back to base so that WC students have a better chance of attending Carnage?
If the Supdt is quite done exchanging words with Dr. Martin (and I am not sure how much longer this sorry spectacle will continue), maybe he can detail the plan behind the apparent wait-and-watch strategy. Or is the plan to deal with the magnet fallout still being hashed out? What is being monitored? What are the contingency plans? Throttling the viability of a key magnet middle school would be an effective death knell for the WCPSS magnet program. If that is the BOE's intent, then congratulations, MYR calendars, and trailers at base schools are in order. If that is not the intent, then it is high time the BOE demanded a definitive plan of action from the Supdt.
Why the task force
Fri, 01/27/2012 - 00:59 — nmoskalBasically because achievement for ED students in WCPSS had been on the decline and was below state average.
Some of the issues include (but are not limited to) ED students disproportionately not recommended for higher level math compared to NED peers in same EVAAS prediction category; ED students who were above grade level given remedial level supplemental educational services, resulting in some then falling below grade level; WCPSS's long-term suspension rate was 10x-20x the rate of other large districts in NC; and placing students in drop-out prevention that did not meet the criteria, which actually increased their rate of dropping out. Some of the issues are WCPSS specific, some are not but can be addressed within WCPSS.
From the task force website:
The Economically Disadvantaged Student Performance Task Force was formed as a collaborative effort of leaders from broad sectors of the community. The group works to create targeted partnerships to address policy and systemic reform in support of students from economically disadvantaged backgrounds. With an ultimate goal of closing achievement gaps, reducing suspension rates, and increasing graduation rates, the working group strives to define and create equity throughout WCPSS by addressing issues of community, resources, school culture, school programs, and relationships. The focus of the work this year revolves around three key issues: parent involvement, evaluation of effectiveness, and intervention.
As for funding - various educational funding formulas (state and federal) are intended to provide additional funding for students who are economically disadvantaged. In other words, schools like WC are supposed to be getting more funding just as districts that have more (by %) disadvantaged students are supposed to get more funding per student than those that have fewer. Society has decided some level of equitable funding makes sense.
Unfortunately, one issue is that funding isn't always used effectively - see above regarding above grade level students given remedial services. However, that means the underlying issue should be addressed, not the funding, which is why evaluation of effectiveness is a focus area for the task force. Ultimately, if we can address the underlying issues and use the funding effectively, it will pay off in the end. The long-term societal costs of not successfully educating a student outweigh the costs that would be saved by not providing effective services.
I always find it interesting that it seems it is often those that in one breath want to protect or extend AG services and/or magnet programs for applicant students, in the next breath question ED students or a higher-poverty school getting something extra.
indeed, I find Mr. Tata's
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 15:57 — jeannie84indeed, I find Mr. Tata's tone to Dr. Martin bordering on insubordination; Del Burns would have never dared to speak to Margiotta, et al. like that!
yeah, Burns just went to the
Thu, 01/26/2012 - 17:31 — AngelaWyeah, Burns just went to the press instead....
Of course you do
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 17:26 — FSandYOUThe fact is, Martin created the insubordinational tone with his outright LIES and total disrespect during his campaign.
Del Burns never had the gonads to speak to anyone he disagreed with period.
He was more the quitting kind.
The fact is, Dr. Martin is
Thu, 01/26/2012 - 14:24 — jeannie84The fact is, Dr. Martin is now one of Tata's bosses and he (Tata) needs to address him (Martin) accordingly.
Ehh....
Thu, 01/26/2012 - 16:16 — Bob_SconceBe careful with that. He reports both to the local board and, interestingly, to the state board. But, the board is his boss, not the individual board members. He no more has to do what Jim Martin says than he has to do what I say.
The fact is Tata has 9
Thu, 01/26/2012 - 14:49 — starsonoursThe fact is Tata has 9 bosses and it appears that he has a good working relationship with 8 of them. So it does not appear the issue is Tata.
The fact is Martin talks at (not to) Tata as if he is a student in one of his Chemistry classes.
The fact is Martin continues to speak to Tata in a condescending manner and acts like a pompous a@@.
The fact is most people respond to you in the manner you respond to them. Martin should not be surprised when someone responds to him in a short and direct manner. Or would you prefer Tata respond "Please sir may I have another"?
These facts will remain then
Thu, 01/26/2012 - 15:36 — FSandYOUMartin LIED during his campaign, more than once, then tried to throw it back in Tata's face and LIED some more. Martin showed the usual disrespect he shows everyone, except the moron in his mirror, to Tata. There will be nothing but attitude and tantrums from Martin going forward and I don't think anyone expects anything different from the anointed one.
Fact is, Martin is a LIAR and I wouldn't trust him with your kid's lunch money.
Agreed....
Thu, 01/26/2012 - 15:36 — JanisTangoof course he does. I would say the respect needs to go both ways. When Martin lied about Mr. Tata during the campaign didn't help get the relationship off to a good start...do you agree?
Good post - except....
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 08:50 — valsparSince there are no base schools anymore, there is no threat for additional trailers at base schools. Somebody's going to fill up a seat, no matter where it is. What is lacking is the proper order of student assignment analysis - first a magnet evaluation should have been done - 2 years ago, and ahead of any choice model. Then additional programs (not just STEM and Leadership Academies. although these have a place) should have been brought on board at schools predicted to be last choice, since obviously there is a demand for magnet schools in general. More choices = higher demand and hopefully higher acceptance rate, giving parents a greater opportunity for magnet seats.
...
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 17:09 — Sideburns...first a magnet evaluation should have been done - 2 years ago, and ahead of any choice model...
LOL. Can you imagine if the Board had requested a review of the magnet program 2 years ago? Your friends would have gone off the rails.
Magnet review, page two
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 22:26 — valsparHad the R board followed the magnet review process that was already in place (anybody remember when Brooks almost lost its magnet, and Daniels and Root did? That was the magnet review), there would have been one. The 2nd part of the magnet review was supposed to be two years after the first round of decisions, about the time the R's came on board. The board was supposed to revisit the decisions made and not made during the first round of review, which they did not. Its a good thing too. Back then, Tedesco was a magnet hater, and Goldman was visiting and defending Enloe. Imagine the additional damage they could have done to the magnet program back then had their concentration not been on strict neighborhood schools.
PS Sideburns
Wed, 01/25/2012 - 22:29 — valsparI agree - the R board would have screwed that up too, drawing even more scrutiny and ridicule from the community.
...
Thu, 01/26/2012 - 08:20 — SideburnsThanks for making my point. You prejudged and ridiculed everything the old Board discussed. The mere mention of the magnet system sent all of you into a tizzy.