WakeEd

The WakeEd blog is devoted to discussing and answering questions about the major issues facing the Wake County school system. How much will the new Democratic majority on the school board do to undo the changes made by Republicans since 2009? Will the new student assignment plan be a hybrid of the last two models or primarily be a return to the use of busing for diversity? Who will replace Tony Tata as the new superintendent of the state's largest district? How will voters react to a likely request in 2013 to borrow potentially more than $1 billion to build and renovate schools?

WakeEd is maintained by The News & Observer's Wake schools reporter, T. Keung Hui. While Keung posts information and analysis on the issues, keep us posted on your suggestions, questions, tips and what you're doing to cope with the changes in Wake's schools.

Choose a blog

Wake County school board member Jim Martin warning of unintended consequences of new feeder patterns

Bookmark and Share

The potential impact of the feeder patterns on school demographics is one reason members of the Democratic majority on the Wake County school board are raising concerns about the new student assignment plan.

As noted in today's article, Democratic school board member Jim Martin cited his concerns about Carnage Middle School as an example of how the feeders can change a school. Martin said he's familiar with Carnage because his son is a magnet student there.

The particular issue at Carnage is that Walnut Creek Elementary will feed into the school starting in the 2012-13 school year. With Walnut Creek being such a large part of the feeder, he said it could hurt Carnage's Gifted and Talented/AG Basics program.

The four AG/GT magnet schools are the only ones in Wake allowed to have AG students grouped together for reading and math. At the other schools, AG students are only in homogeneous courses for pullout enrichment activities.

“You’re frankly going to change the demographics of the school dramatically," Martin said during Tuesday's board work session. "Not that there aren’t AG/GT kids at Walnut Creek, but the percentage is not high."

Martin said it appeared the new plan didn't include target percentages for the magnet secondary schools like they exist for the magnet elementary schools.

James Overman, head of the student assignment task force, said they decided to start at the magnet elementary schools and phase it in over time with the new kindergarten class into the magnet secondary schools. But he said they're still providing access for magnet and proximity students at the secondary schools.

"It doesn’t resolve the issue that you're drastically changing the demographics at some schools, particularly the middle and high schools,” Martin said.

Carnage came up again during the work session as the board discussed whether it needed to have a rubric in place before the plan goes into effect on what it impact it will have on schools.

"I don’t want us to change a school by unintended consequences," Martin said. "If a school’s demographic, culture, whatever is going to change, I want it to be changed because we decided that’s an important thing — and not just we but the community at the school, everybody — they need to be involved in the decision as to what the school is going to change to.

I don’t think we want to change the nature of a school by oh the feeder pattern happened to cause that. Oops we really didn’t mean it.”

Looking specifically at Carnage, Martin said that if you talk to people there they'll say that you need roughly a 50 percent AG population to have a sufficient AG/GT program. But he said that’s most likely not going to be the case as the feeder pattern stands today.

Martin said that kind of impact on Carnage should be part of any rubric.

“Are we really willing to say that we want Carnage to change the nature of being one of our two AG/GT middle schools?" Martin said. "I’m not willing to go there. So how that rolls out and takes effect I don’t know, but I think we do need to look very carefully at what I’m going to call the unintended consequences of whatever assignment plan moving forward."

Republican school board member John Tedesco said that any change at Carnage would take place over time. But Martin said it's going to begin happening this fall.

Republican school board member Debra Goldman questioned the need to have a percentage of gifted and talented students at a GT magnet. She pointed to how acceptance into GT magnets is not based on scores but is "more of a lottery type system."

Goldman said the premise of GT schools is that all students have gifts and talents.

Martin responded that AG/GT magnet schools are different than the regular GT magnets. He said students need to be AG identified to apply for the AG/GT magnets. 

Martin added that a review of the criteria for magnets should be looked at as part of the next magnet review.

Deputy Superintendent Cathy Moore said that the magnet review is at the top of the list for things she wants Beth Cochran, the new senior director of magnet programs, to work on.

Martin said he also had to respond to Goldman's comments about all students being gifted.

"As to your point though that all students are gifted and talented, in one respect I will not disagree with you," Martin said. "But we would never tell our football coaches everybody can play varsity. Nobody would do that and I think we have to recognize that we can’t do that in the academic sphere either."

1325767280 Wake County school board member Jim Martin warning of unintended consequences of new feeder patterns The News and Observer Copyright 2011 The News and Observer . All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Comments

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

interesting paper by the co-author of the cogat, Dr David Lohman

Identifying Academically Talented Minority Students

http://faculty.education.uiowa.edu/dlohman/pdf/Identifying_Academically_Talented.pdf

Poor and minority children in the U.S. are underrepresented in programs for academically talented students (Donovan & Cross, 2002). Attempts to increase the representation of these students, however, has been made difficult by recurring misconceptions about the nature of academic giftedness, the interpretation of measures of ability and achievement commonly used to identify gifted students, and the kinds of the educational programs that have developed to serve gifted students. I first discuss some of the misconceptions about giftedness that have thwarted efforts to identify academically talented minority students. Chief among these is the fallacy that intelligence tests can be constructed that measure innate ability. I then present an alternative model for identifying academically talented students that is grounded in modern theories of aptitude.

I certainly agree that CogAT

I certainly agree that CogAT is a daft way to assess students for AG services. But, not having read the article, I wonder what the authors' intent was in formulating CogAT in the first place. And now he talks of an alternative model? Odd.

This is the heart of our problem

Jim spoke about the decay of AIG at Carnage if too many WCES children feed into that school. WCES is majority minority, and while there are likely MANY AIG qualified children, they are not identified as such. That means their talents are not nurtured and they are seen as a LIABILITY to an elite magnet like Carnage.

How about this Jim - what if we have a full 9 days of AIG testing at WCES like they do at Leesville ES? What if we test, retest and retest again until we have a critical mass of AIG identified 3rd grade children at WCES? Will WCES get more AIG resources just like LRES? Or will they still be considered a liability? They will still be Black, they will still be from lower middle class neighborhoods, but then they will be AIG.

Does anyone see this as blatant racism or is it just me? Maybe someone needs to pull the AIG demographic breakdown report for this damn BOE, maybe they need to see on paper how we deny children access to AIG enrichment.

Lets just keep on keeping on - the problem is demography. The problem is the children. It is not us..... it is them and their skin color and the size of their home and the amount of money in their parent's bank account and the number of letters after their mom or dad's name. Jim is clearly a better parent because he has letters after his name. I am too, because I have those glorious letters. We are so superior, and those others are less, just less.

Just curious... how does

Just curious... how does WCPSS deny AIG services to qualified students on a scale you seem to suggest?

not on purpose

I doubt snordone is suggesting that there is a conspiracy to deny WCES kids AIG services, but rather the way that AIG testing is done is inherintly biased against some types of kids. This is an ongoing problem all over the country. In the end AIG testing at third grade is best at pulling out kids who are mature enough to handle the testing, and think in a way that the tests pick up on as gifted.

I agree with your

I agree with your assessment.

All kids are given the CogAts in 3rd grade.  If you score higher than 75% (I may have that figure wrong), then you are 'invited' to take the ITBS (Iowa Test of Basic Skills).   A letter goes home to the parents--they must give permission for their kids to take the ITBS.  If the kids score 95% or above (again, I could have that number wrong), then they are ID'ed as AG. 

What if the parents don't understand the importance of this designation?  What if they don't understand the letter, period?  What if the parent just doesn't care?  That shouldn't impact a student's ID.  I brought this up at a meeting and was told that they are working on ways to better ID disadvantaged kids.  Not sure what they are doing.

another step

With my kids, the parents were also given an assessment to fill out as part of the evaluation -- what if parents don't fill that out for some reason. Also, at our school it is also possible to get kids who are on the bubble reevaluated in 4th or 5th grade if they don't get identified in 3rd grade, but the parent must ask for it. If parents don't know about this, then kids get missed that way too.

I realize you are only

I realize you are only listing ways things could go wrong for any student and not necessarily implying how things could go wrong for only one section of society. Snordone's post however appears to imply a systematic form of discrimination in providing AG services. If true, it is troubling and I hope the new BOE addresses the problem.

Also

I understand that, although this is how the procedure is explained to parents, the actual practice may differ.  For instance, some children who do not meet the qualifications are accepted and at least one school administered a third test.  I have also heard different cutoff scores for the ITBS.  In addition, students who are tested privately may be accepted outside the stated procedures.  Add to that the question of how "very strong", "strong" and "mild" designations are determined and the result is a process that is not as transparent as it first appears.

requirement

Is WCPSS required to provide bussing though? Being eligible for bussing is one thing, but my understanding is that WCPSS is not required to offer bussing by state law. I wonder if Anne Majestic has weighed in on this question.

OT: Will the buses pay tolls on 540?

Does anyone know if buses are exempt from the tolls on 540, scheduled to open in August? If we delay the plan over this feeder schools issue and my kid ends up at Panther Creek instead of a more proximate school, I'm trying to calculate how much that will cost me to pay tolls to get to Panther Creek versus what cost in gas, mileage and time to go the long way.  Just made me wonder if WCPSS is buying transponders for the bus fleet. Kids coming from Briar Creek take 540 to PCHS, and the existing road is going toll. Also, the toll road opens to Apex, and lots of Apex kids get bused to PCHS too. Any guesses what this will cost?

Another OT: where can I find a list of regional achievement sch

If anyone knows where I can see a list of the regional or achievement schools that might get the set asides, I'd love to see it. Thanks!

I'll have the list up as

I'll have the list up as part of a blog post running Monday morning.

It used to be on the plan

It used to be on the plan website but I can't find it now.  Maybe somebody else can find it. 

Yep, I know, but now the appendices are not there.

Thank you for looking, though.

One thing you can do is look

One thing you can do is look up the schools for your address and you can at least find out which of your schools are RCs. 

I have a copy of that list somewhere.  I'll see if I can find it.  You could also try the archived site.  I have no idea if it's on there but I guess it's worth a shot.  http://proposal-archive.wcpss.net/

Keung posted middle & high available seats

Just in case people didn't notice, K just posted the available seats for middle and high schools.  It's at the bottom of the 'handouts' post.

No seats

What happens if a family moves into a home and there are no seats available at the schools listed as "choice" for their address?  Neither of the high schools on my list have any seats for 10-12 grade students.  Of our two middle school choices only one has seats and it doesn't have many that are available.  Sounds like there are some nodes that need more than two MS and two HS choices because our only choices are already full.  I thought that the plan guaranteed a student a seat, with transportation, at one of the schools on the choice list. 

just like the old magnet lottery

I think what is happening as more numbers become available, and we all have time to absorb the implications of the assignment plan, it is becoming clear that in many ways the proximity lottery is very similar to the old magnet lottery writ large. Because most desireable schools and those in highly populated areas are basically full or overenrolled for the foreseeable future, people will be lucky to get in with a Kindergartener, and it will be like getting hit by a bolt of lightening to get in many schools after Kindergarten. Sure parents can choose all they want, but like the magnet lottery, there are going to be many options that will exist on paper only.

Until we get through the entire assignment process, though, we can really only speculate about what will happen and how difficult it will really be to get into some of these schools. It's just hard to know how many of these available seat numbers are accurate.

I agree, and I think it will

I agree, and I think it will really be worse these first few years as the kids age out.  If you look at how many schools are already overcrowded and the fact that you're grandfathered in at your school, there just isn't going to be room for kids in the non-entry grades until we've cycled through several years. 

Good point

but, I think in the more crowded areas with generally stable residential populations, non-entry points will always be full because once there is a full complement of 6th graders (for instance), you will never have that many openings in 7th and 8th grades.

You're right as well. 

You're right as well.  There will probably be few openings in those cases.

I am really curious about what's going to happen with some of our more overcrowded schools in this plan. For instance, I've mentioned elsewhere that we are applying for Wakefield High because Millbrook (our assigned school) has no comp sci classes.  There are 0 seats available at WHS, but surely there will be kids assigned to WHS who end up applying to other schools.  That should open up spots. Or will it?

I have no idea of the correct numbers, just throwing some samples out.  Let's say there are 600 rising 9th graders at WHS (or any other high school), but the capacity is only 500.  75 kids assigned to WHS apply for other schools and are accepted.  Even with 75 kids leaving WHS, they are still 25 seats over capacity which would still leave 0 seats available.

Are they going to gradually transition the capacity numbers these first few years?  Or will they jump right away to the lower number? 

I'm wondering the same

I'm wondering the same thing.  I started looking at the nodes in my neighborhood to see what kind of capacity there is for newcomers.  In my node, there are no 4th grade seats next year in any of the 6 elem schools on our list.  So then what happens?  They find another school with a seat for that child?  Will they offer transportation? 

From what I understand, they are not going to offer full transportation to all of the schools on our lists.  Some might only be express service and I'm not sure if there will be any with no bus service.  So if the schools on your list with transportation are full, is it possible that you could get your 3rd, 4th, or 5th choice without transportation or only express?  I would hope not, but we haven't seen the full plan to know yet.

No guarantee of a seat at a school on your choice list

I inquired today of the student assignment office as to whether I am  guaranteed a 6th grade seat at one of the two middle schools on my choice list and I was told "no".  So, I have an assignment to a middle school outside of my choice list with no transportation and no guarantee of getting an assignment with a bus.  Sounds illegal to me.

I don't know if it's illegal, but it definitely goes against the

 

spirit of the general statutes.

WCPSS should provide transportation to the school they "assign" you to.  That's written in the NC General Statutes.  

The legal key is that if they assign you to a school that you did not "choose", then they should provide transportation. I don't think they can tell you, we're assigning you to middle school x and by the way, we won't give you transportation.  

Transportation

So far I have an assignment slip where WCPSS "assigned" me to a school with no transportation.  I definitely plan to apply during the choice window but my choice list only has two middle schools and neither has many seats available for 6th graders and the student assignment department was very clear that there's no guarantee I'll get a seat.  I wish priority would be given to families that have assignments with no transportation to allow them into schools closer to home where transportation is scheduled to be provided.

I agree that they should

I agree that they should look at giving priority to those who are in feeder patterns that provide no transportation.  It's WCPSS who gave parents 'odious' traditional options in the first place, many of which were far from home and not logical.  After a few years this will be less of a problem so they could eventually phase it out.
 

Hmm

That just doesn't sound right.  What happens if you move into the district mid-year?  Does the district assign you to a magnet school with free space? 

Wow, we are in the same

Wow, we are in the same situation -- assigned to a middle school without transportation -- and Laura Evans told me that I need to enter the choice process to select a middle school on my list "if transportation is something (I) need." She didn't qualify her statement at all -- nothing about capacity constraints for students trying to get to a school on their list. So,based on the info you received, it sounds like the plan designers did not take this group of students into account. Did they actually assume transportation is not important to us and we would stay in our assigned school without transportation or is this just an oversight? I'm still waiting to see how many students fall in this group -- I don't remember seeing it in the handouts from Tuesday's meeting.

No guarantee of a seat with transportation

Ms. Evans is the same one who told me there was no guarantee I could geat a seat at one of the middle schools (I only have two) from my choice list.  She suggested that I apply and "wait and see" if space is available or not.  She did say that I could file an appeal in May after the assignment process if the lack of transportation caused a hardship for me. 

I've been emailing the entire board (old and new) as well as Mr. Tata since October of 2011 asking that they look at changes to the plan so that opt out families can be guaranteed seats, with transportation, within the "choice" options listed for their addresses.  At our North Raleigh school 15% of current 5th graders are impacted.

So...

I think she's wrong.

NCGS 115C-246(b): Unless road or other conditions make it inadvisable, public school buses shall be routed on state‑maintained highways, municipal streets, or other streets with publicly dedicated right‑of‑way. The local board of education shall not be responsible for damage to the roadway. Each public school bus shall be routed so that the bus passes within one mile of the residence of each pupil assigned to that bus. A pupil who lives one and one‑half miles or more from the school to which the pupil is assigned shall be eligible for school bus transportation. (emphasis added)

I'm no education law expert, but that seems pretty clear to me.

Out of curiousity, which school?

So...

Thank you Bob!  I felt sure that transporation should be a basic requirement.  The school is definitely >1.5 miles from my house as it would take me 30 minutes one way to get there.  It would be much more cost effective for MYR opt out students to feed back into schools from the choice list of their addresses, and not the feeder school of the more distant MYR opt out schools. 

That highlighted sentence is

That highlighted sentence is interesting.  It was one thing when people were assigned to a base school and applied for magnets without transportation.  If transportation was crucial to them, they had their base school as well as the cal option if they got in.  But at least both of those were guaranteed transportation.

Now what happens if you rank your schools according to which ones have neighborhood buses but don't get in?  Can they force you to attend a school with no transportation if you originally asked for one with?  I can see if you rank a school as number 1 knowing that it has no bus, but can they deny you bus services?

Not having bus service is a big deal.

Yeah...

Big difference between opting out of transportation and being completely denied transportation.  

That's why I think somebody's not understanding the plan right.  This is just too basic of a thing for the district to miss. 

Aren't they providing transportation to all of your choice schools?   The only question is really how close the bus stop is -- state law just requires it to be within a mile of your home.

I thought they said that it

I thought they said that it wouldn't necessarily be neighborhood busing for all of your choices.  Express buses might be used and those are currently more than a mile from most people's homes. 

I think this came in the discussions about transportation costs, but I don't think anything offical has come out yet about transportation services.

If I'm reading the

If I'm reading the handout from Tuesday's meeting correctly, staff are aware that the plan does NOT provide transportation to some middle and high school students who are currently in a base school that is not on their choice list. Page 6 of the handout with BOE member questions to staff clearly spells out that some students, if they choose to grandfather at their current base middle or high school, will not get transportation -- 613 middle schoolers and 569 high schoolers will not get transportation. Now, this is not our situation since we are not at our base school (we are at our YR option not on our choice list). So, there is some other group of students who are currently at their calendar option school who are "pre-assigned" to a school not on the choice list without transportation and no guarentee of a seat in a "choice" school with transportation -- would be nice to know the number of students in this group. 

You're describing the problem...

My impression of the above law is that the district cannot assign students to a school that's more than 1.5 miles from home unless (i) it also provides transportation or (ii) the family chooses to provide its own transportation.  If you choose to grandfather, then you're choosing to provide transportation.

no guarentee of a seat in a "choice" school with transportation

This is the part that doesn't sound right.  If that's really what the district is doing, then I think it's illegal**.  But, since I think the district wouldn't purposively do something blatently illegal, I conclude that it's not what the district is doing.

(**Not an education law expert.  I do hope they've consulted Majestic on this.)

Interesting.  This could

Interesting.  This could really have an impact on home sales if there are no seats in the schools available to a node.  Unreal.  I certainly hope that you get into one of your middle schools with transportation. 

It will most certainly

It will most certainly impact RE sales. But then again, there will be winners and losers since previously prime properties are no longer having a lock on neighborhood schools.

It will take care of any future growth problems

because now there won't be any if the realtors are truthful. I count 16 or more schools that have ZERO SEATS for rising 6th graders.

This will be more than interesting, it will be a down right crisis in just a few months for the Martin/Evans Fibb Show!

*** WARNING TO THOSE CONSIDERING MOVING TO WAKE COUNTY:

DON'T BOTHER!  We have no room for many of your kids and in just 10 days the circus comes back to town as parents start ranking choices for schools that have ZERO SEATS!

That is IF the Martin/Evans Fibb Show doesn't derail the new plan!

what if people don't choose 4

I'm wondering what they will do if people choose only a few schools and don't get into any of them. If I was a savvy Kindergarten parent, and there were really only one or two schools I was interested in, no matter how crowded, I would just choose those. Could people end up without a school assignment?

I don't have time to look it

I don't have time to look it up right now, but I'm pretty sure they talk about this somewhere in the plan.  If you don't rank all of them, they select for you if the your top ones are full.  I don't think there will be anybody without an assignment.  My guess is that they'd put those kids in the school that needs bodies the most.

If I remember correctly,

If I remember correctly, kindergarten parents need to rank all the options in order to be given one of their choices, even if it turns out to be their third of forth choice. Those who already have a school, only need to list the number of choices they actually want to attend more than their current assignment.

I thought choice lists had to include schools with available seats. The district can't guarantee anyone that their most proximate schools will have seats, but I think they have to show schools (or really a school) with seats on the choice list, otherwise some students would have no assignment.

Do the choice lists include transportation information. I know the sample lists don't. Parents need to know the level of transportation each choice comes with in order to make an informed decision.

During the magnet selection

During the magnet selection process I could see our transportation options for each school (express or neighborhood). However when I asked Student Assignment about specifics (e.g.route, number of stops, time/length) I was told that those details would be worked out after assignment.

When we make our choices in

When we make our choices in mid Jan, we will know the transportation choices. 

That's exactly what has

That's exactly what has happened in NYC.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/08/nyregion/in-applying-for-high-school-some-8th-graders-find-a-maze.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

Interesting article.  It is

Interesting article.  It is a lot different there though, in that the schools are taking kids based on test scores and the like.  Also, they have a much wider range of schools to choose from. 

I don't think that anybody will be left without an assignment.  You'll get an assignment but you may not like it.

They haven't made it clear what they are going to do to newcomers who move here & all of their node's schools are full.  They will be put someplace that has room, but we don't know what kind of transportation, if any, they will get.  I don't know how often that will happen, but my node has no 4th grade seats for next year (as of right now).  Of our two high schools, one has 0 seats for 9th graders and the other has 0 seats for 10-12.  Of course, these numbers are very preliminary at this point since we have no idea yet of how many kids have applied for and will get into the magnets, nor how many will apply for other base schools. 

that's what made me think about it

Yes, I've read articles like the one you posted before too. That's what made me start thinking about it here.

Carnage clarification

Carnage is both an AG and GT application school, plus has base students. It shows up as two separate options on the magnet application. If you are AG identified you apply for the AG program, otherwise you apply for GT.

Also, only students identified as strong or very strong take the core subject(s) (math (plus science) and/or language arts (plus social studies)) in which they are identified as such in a separate classroom with only other AG kids. Moderate identified are in mixed class with about 50/50 moderate AG/non-AG.

On the tour some classrooms we looked in were racially mixed but saw a number of them that were almost all White and Asian in the room and almost all Black and Hispanic in others. In one class appeared to me to be zero Black students. But hey, they see a sea of each others faces in the cafeteria, so that's a great model of diversity right? One applicant parent on the tour asked if there was an SRO officer in the hall because it has more diverse students. I'm sure she will fit right in.

Whether you are touring a

Whether you are touring a magnet/ non-magnet, you wouldn't find too many Blacks and Hispanics in AG classes.

Cars View All
Find a Car
Go
Jobs View All
Find a Job
Go
Homes View All
Find a Home
Go

Want to post a comment?

In order to join the conversation, you must be a member of newsobserver.com. Click here to register or to log in.

About the blogger

T. Keung Hui covers Wake schools.
Advertisements