WakeEd

The WakeEd blog is devoted to discussing and answering questions about the major issues facing the Wake County school system. How much will the new Democratic majority on the school board do to undo the changes made by Republicans since 2009? Will the new student assignment plan be a hybrid of the last two models or primarily be a return to the use of busing for diversity? Who will replace Tony Tata as the new superintendent of the state's largest district? How will voters react to a likely request in 2013 to borrow potentially more than $1 billion to build and renovate schools?

WakeEd is maintained by The News & Observer's Wake schools reporter, T. Keung Hui. While Keung posts information and analysis on the issues, keep us posted on your suggestions, questions, tips and what you're doing to cope with the changes in Wake's schools.

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Wake County parents raising concerns about proposed bell schedule changes

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Wake County parents are venting their frustration about the bell schedule proposal in the school system's online survey.

As noted in today's article, a number of the more than 6,200 responses to the survey have complained that the time changes would result in higher costs for before- and after-school care. Parents talked about how they have incorporated the current schedule into their tight work schedules.

"I do NOT want to lose my job over having to change my hours nor do I want to pay money for before AND afterschool care," said Nicole Hardy in the survey about the change at Sycamore Creek Elementary "50 minutes of change is TOO much."

Some parents said that even a 10-minute change in time could require them to have to pay for before school care.

A number of comments pointed to research about teens needing more sleep to question changes that would put several high schools on an earlier 7:25 a.m. start time.

"It has been proven that teenagers need more sleep," said Reed Parks on the change to Broughton High. "In  particular they need sleep in the mornings. Why would we put any child in a position not to have their best shot at a productive school day. This is crazy to me."

Some commenters blamed the changes on the new student assignment plan.

"We most wholeheartedly oppose this proposal - this idea only 'saves' money because of the impact of the 'choice' plan - had it not been for the absurd cost of the recent (and unnecessary) "choice" plan (the numerous bus route changes required for it, and the inefficiency of facility use that it creates) this draconian "savings" effort (and its impact on the entire community) would be simply unnecessary," said Nathan Rudy about the change to Adams Elementary.

Superintendent Tony Tata denied during his press conference on Friday that they were proposing the changes because of the plan. He said that Wake's efficiency rating wad dropping under the old plan so changes in bus routing would have been needed regardless of what plan was used.

"It’s got nothing to do with the assignment plan," Tata said. "It’s got everything to do with maintaining our efficiency rating on transportation and trying to be more efficient."

While in the minority among the responses, the proposed bell schedule changes got praise too.

"Thank you for trying to create a more efficient bus schedule that will save us money," said Sherri Pinkham commenting about the changes at River Bend Elementary.

Click here to view all the comments.

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Pre-Bond Hysteria

I believe the administration has a great gameplan.  Squawk and flap about needing to save money on buses, threaten to change start times and get parents tore all to pieces, then don't change any start times but tell the public that you must have a new bond if you want to keep things the way they are with start times.  It's such a good plan that Tata will have even the staunchest Republicans begging for a tax increase.

bond

The only problem with that scenario is that bond money is only for the capital budget, and the money they save from the start time changes would be applied to the operating budget.

assignment plan consequence

This is yet another consequence of the assignment plan.  Although they won't say it transportation costs go up in new plan and they now have to do this to "save" money.  First we have kids forced into feeder patterns that send them to middle and high schools further away and siblings won't be able to go to same middle/high school campuses and now this with the bell changes.  Apparently this "choice" plan that was rushed by the previous board isn't so "great" after all.  We are just beginning to see the consequences.  Just wait until real estate values start to fall....

Have You Checked The Numbers Lately...

When I checked the available seats, Wakefield Middle School had 67 seats available with only 5 people choosing it as their first choice.  West Millbrook Middle School had less than 5 seats available with 6 people choosing it.  I know there are no guarantees, but it seems to me you would have a pretty good shot at getting into Wakefield!

just looked at numbers

and I show total 48 seats available at WMMS (27 on feeder path to MHS, 21 on feeder path to Sanderson) and only 19/8 first choice apps...

wonder why your numbers show so different?

This has been...

mentioned on this forum before. It appears there is some quota that is being enforced based on the feeder pattern your are in or select.

Available Seats based on your grade

The numbers you see are based on your child's grade, not the whole school.  This is why two people may see different numbers.

Thanks for the Explanation!

That was indeed confusing.  Is there anyway to see what the numbers are at all schools? 

Interesting...

Interesting indeed......I went through the assignment link on the WCPSS website.  Where did you get your numbers?    I just happen to have both WMMS and WMS as choices for my children. 

this is crazy.  I wonder

this is crazy.  I wonder how many seats WMMS really has?  Before the software glitch email I took a screen shot when I applied at WMMS showed 70 seats available.  Now I see 27/21 depending on feeder and you see 5?

I don't get it!!

WMMS Mystery

I also saw what you saw with the number changes for WMMS and immediately notified growth management.  I received an email last week that they're still looking into what happened to the original 70 seats.  I have all three elementary schools that feed WMMS on my choice list so I would think that I would be able to see all available seats.

To those interested in Carroll I know that there are at least 10 students from my daughter's elementary school that are applying elsewhere because we are assigned to Carroll with no transportation next year.

same...

us too.  WMMS is our first choice for rising 6th grader, so I've been paying attention to those numbers!  :)  I just logged in and looked at what they were at today.

Wakefield is not a proximate choice for us at all - just Durant, WMMS (twice, two separate feeder patterns) and Carroll.  Durant has more first choice requests than they have seats as of today in my view. Same with Carroll.

So Kevin is still ignoring you guys

What a leader he isn't.

what is annoying and also

what is annoying and also questionable is that our HS start/end times are NOT changing and yet the MS and ES are.  Our buses have always run between the three schools, and (for the most part-barring accidents like today on 440) are on time and efficient.

 So WHY the change?  it makes no sense other than as a disruption to a schedule that was working on a tiered system for years.  stupid.

"I do NOT want to lose my job..."

"I do NOT want to lose my job over having to change my hours nor do I want to pay money for before AND afterschool care,"

I do not want to lose teacher jobs either.  

Even a 10 minute change will be an adjustment for my family, but it is worth it if we can save teachers.   We are facing a $40 million dollar hole this year and the General Assembly and County Commission do not seem inclined to help. 

I appreciate WCPSS for asking parents for input so they can anticipate the pain points and perhaps even adjust the schedule but, in the end, they will have to do what is best to save teachers.  

To those who continue to (falsely) link this to the new assignment plan, I still would rather have a say in where my child goes to school over an adjusted bell schedule that we apparently needed anyway. 

I felt the same way when we changed to year round....

I did have to resign from my job because of the schedule.  Any change the school system makes will always affect some and not others.  It's just part of the deal when your dealing with such a large system.

bus routes

I wonder if the administration is being completely upfront about the implications of the change in transportation and school start times. In the past there have been schools with the 8-ish start times so that there can be busses that do three runs in the morning and afternoon.  Now they want to change to two start times, meaning that each bus can only run two routes, yet they can do this with fewer busses? The only thing that I can think of that would make this work is if lots of routes were eliminated, making bus runs much longer, and putting more kids on each bus. I haven't seen any administrator admit to that, but how else would this actually work? This year my youngest's bus route was changed substantially when they combined two routes into one. His bus ride almost doubled in length, and he is now catching the bus 20 minutes earlier in the morning than in the past. People are assuming that a 10 minute change in start time means their bus will arrive 10 minutes later, but I wonder if that is really true.

Not quite....

Under the new plan, there are still, basically, three different start times: ~7:25ish, ~8:25sh and ~9:25ish.   There seem to be a few things driving this:  (1) by re-arranging start times, there were probably some buses which, before, could only do two schools but can now do three, (2) the schedule probably makes it more likely that the bus driver will get to his/her stops on time.

Change for the sake of change?

There is one proposed scenario where Leadmine Elementary would move from 8:30 to 9:25 and meanwhile Lynn Rd Elementary, just two miles away, would change from 9:15 to 8:30.  If the transportation department needs one elementary school in this area to start at 8:30 and another to start at 9:25 why not leave both of these schools alone?

Why are names included?!?!?

Why include names to the responses?  This will truly anger more parents and there will be a backlash on future surveys!!!!!

It will not anger more than a handful

Most parents are as clueless and complacent as a pair of socks.

You're delusional to think you will ever respond to a survey, in this way, for this school system, and not have your info collected, sorted, analyzed and blasted out for the world to see.

I hear there's actually a master list now that you are part of it when you respond to these things and it's divided into 2 sides.

Those who are with them and those who aren't.

Thanks for a...

bunch of FUD. What are you so scared of? Read Bob's post below for the right answer.

Well..

When you fill out the form, the bottom says: 

All information submitted becomes a public record, as defined in the NC General Statutes, Chapter 132, and may be released to third parties.

The district doesn't really have a choice.

You're right

But it may as well bluntly say that "Your name and response will be shared on the Internet."

 

BTW, I must have responded too late as my name was not in the doc.

Well...

It wasn't the school district who shared it on the internet -- it was the News & Observer.  Keung just asked for it from the district.

I'm with you -- I had responded early, got some bizarre message, so then responded again yesterday when I saw that my name wasn't in the list.

Confidentiality

I don't understand why this survey asked for the first and last names of the students.

And I really don't understand why WCPSS is including this information in the link that shows the comments.  It doesn't add any value, and seems like a really bad idea.

Changed...

Currently, it asks for the parent's name.

resisting change

Funny to hear all the complaints about how disruptive the changes will be for a bell change!  Yes, it's a big darn deal to a lot of families, and they will deal with it just like all the families who hate their current bell schedules have dealt with it. Our bell schedule changed with every reassignment. Being reassigned or forced onto YR or forced to change tracks is a bigger hardship, often with bigger expenses involved for the families affected.

I want to see bell schedule tied to enrollment.  Under-enrolled schools could use their convenient 8:00 or 8:30 bell times as a selling point. Most of the high enrollment schools in Western Wake already have the way early/way late times with two hours between middle school and elementary start times. If it's a hardship if others, it's a hardship for us too.

it's only 10 minutes!

And, if traveling by bus, a student's arrival home may change by 10 minutes next year without ANY changes to the bell schedule. Routes change every year...the bus arrival time at school in the afternoon can change every year (as it is dependent on it's previous route). I am really tired of the "ME" mentality of families in this county. I am especially tired of the loudest complainers who are fiscal conservatives...so being fiscally responsible isn't for you if it MIGHT alter your schedule by 10 minutes?? A schedule change seems to be just OK for families  when their children go from elementary to middle school. And that is usually a big change in terms of start times. If you can deal with it then, why can't you deal with a 10 minute change next year. (I do realize some schools have a bigger time shift on the table, but for them, see the argurment regarding going from elementary to middle school).

I am fiscally responsible

I am fiscally responsible and believe we as a county need to do what we can to save the school money but this change, as it is presented right now, will cost some families more money for before school care that they don't currently need. Yes, the bus schedules can change at any time and necessitate this same result and I'm sure there would be people negatively impacted then.

That doesn't mean that the change shouldn't be made, but really in all fairness, people were asked as part of a survey what the impact would be and they responded. And now they're being called selfish and fiscally irresponsible.

And the time change from elementary to middle school doesn't have the same impact on families financially - since school is earlier, before school care isn't an issue.

it seems to be more about you

Yes, you are being selfish. Drop your kids off at a school bus stop that is earlier in the route if you need your kids picked up by 8:30. Are your kids the ONLY ones at their stop? If not, a ask a parent of another kid to take yours to the bus stop. Ask your boss if you can arrive/depart 10 minutes later. But do these only IF you are 100% CERTAIN your stop is picked up later. You are making major assumptions about many variables. Would you be complaining if there were no change in the bell schedule and your stop was changed next year in the route to make it the last/latest one to be picked up???

I am not complaining, I am

I am not complaining, I am sharing concerns because a survey asked for them. And I would still share concerns even if I wasn't impacted because of others who are. Just like I did when MYR was instituted and had no impact on me but did negatively affect other families.

If you would read what I have written, you will see that I have said over and over that I support any change that benefits the system as a whole. That doesn't negate my concerns or anyone else's, and AGAIN, people were asked by a survey what the impact would be on them and they responded.

Whether I've explored other options in the event of a change is none of your business other than to say yes, I have and I will continue to do so. I don't know where you get off calling me selfish - you don't know me, you don't know all the details of my situation, and I have been nothing but respectful toward differing opinions on this board, including yours. Frankly, calling me selfish says more about you than about me.

All About Me

As usual, if it isn't convenient for "me", it isn't a good idea.  This is a big money-saver.  Funny how families from the high schools that will have to start earlier complain that their teenagers need more sleep--I guess it's all about "their" teens since all other county high schools are already on the earlier bell schedule!  You will NEVER please everyone.  Do what's best for the system! 

The savings is a a big question

the savings is based on this year's bus route assignments, Tata's crew cannot predict where the routes will be or what it will cost next year with the new assignment plan and the several thousand new students. 

A 10 million savings projected for next year, based on what they have now?  Don't bet on it !   How is it they can tell us what they will be supposedly saving, but they can never tell us what it will cost (the new assignment plan, the recurring program expenses, etc)?

You're right, it is a

You're right, it is a money-saver. A money-saver for the county that will cost my family (and many others) more money. We were surveyed asking what the impact of the bell change would be and people are sharing that. I think they need to do what's best for the system but I am troubled that once again parents are attacking one another's motives and concerns. I think there is a way to acknowledge that this will have a negative impact on some families while supporting the plan to move forward because of the good for the system as a whole.

Interesting...

You can tell where the organized opposition came from -- just sort by school code.  School 494 (Middle Creek Elementary) has a bunch of identical comments, for example.

It seems to me that many people are really not seeing the situation clearly -- there are plenty of families at other schools on the new schedules already and seem to be making it work, so the "I can't make it work for my family" argument seems a bit exaggerated.  Probably the better statement is "I haven't yet figured out how to make it work for my family."

Have you considered?

Bob (et al.):

Have you considered that the current bell schedule may already be a burden that some families are just barely making work by the skin of their teeth?  Change is often accepted or tolerated by the masses because most are not dramatically affected.  However, change like this, any change, will dramatically affect those on the margin, those already on the edge.  Is it ok to be 10 minutes late for a "traffic jam" every now and then? Yes.  Is it ok to be 10 minutes late every day....NO. 

I have an idea.  If there truly is NO savings to be found anywhere in the system.  If there is truly NO waste in any nook or cranny of WCPSS then just raise my taxes already!  Yes, we will vote your sorry butts out of office from the state through the county levels and hopefully fire 1/2 of you sorry, lazy "administrators" who wouldn't know a hard days work from a day at Disney World.  Afterall, you are just "public servants" and you should at some point go and find a real job anyway.  If the current bunch of loosers at the state and county levels can't find any thing to cut to pay for our schools, I think its time to get a whole new bunch in there to take a look. 

Just my rant for the week.

Yeah...

I agree that the current schedules are not optimal for every family.  I can't tell you how many that is.  I know that I don't hear any complaining about it from other people at our school.  It may be that we're all just used to it. 

Personally, I would prefer to see elementary schools starting at 7:45 and high schools starting at 9:25.  That would certainly solve all the problems with "but, I need before-school care."  However, then a different set of people would start complaining. 

As to your last paragraph, there is certainly still some waste in WCPSS.  Heck, if you work in an organization greater than a few people, I can guarantee that it has waste also.  But, at some point, the cost of rooting out the waste exceeds the actual waste itself. So, my standard is not "I'll wait until you get rid of all the waste," because that's about equivalent to "I'll wait until we get snow in July."  Instead, I'm concerned about overall efficiency and rooting out obvious waste.

As to the 1/2 of administrators, I don't think that's fair. The Broad Academy audit said that the central office was probably stretched too thin, and then Tata cut it even further.  

When I said 1/2 the

When I said 1/2 the "administrators", I was really thinking more about 1/2 the bureaucrats at the state level.  I wasn't very clear but after all, it was really just a rant anyway.  The administrators at WCPSS may actually be pawns in this case as I describe below...

The overall point that I was trying to make is that these politicians seem to just continue to place more and more burdens on families through these "stealth" policy changes instead of just having the courage to admit they suck and can't find anywhere else to cut (speaking of state and fed level now).  They refuse to do anything difficult, i.e. either cut some special program for somebody or raise taxes.  Changing bell schedules is nothing more than a temporary band aide that simply doesn't solve the overall problem that the feds and the state gov'ts are spending too much money on stuff they shouldn't be spending anything on.  The politicians refuse to risk their jobs as "public servants" by making the hard choices.  They'd rather pass the burden on the administrators and Tata at WCPSS to figure out some ridiculous plan save a few bucks which does nothing more than place the actual burden on families.  We, as citizens, just keep being to stupid to figure it out.  Oh..please please don't raise my payroll taxes by 2%, while at the same time....Oh...please please don't cut my SS and Medicare benefits which that money pays for....While at the same time Obama tries to convince us his budget is "lowering the deficit" while it adds another 10T in 10 years to the debt.  We are just so stupid. 

I have figured out how to

I have figured out how to make it work for my family - pay an additional $100 per month for before school care because while we can be late for the occasional traffic jam/accident, the agencies that we work for will not allow us to come in after 9 as a daily schedule. That's just the way it is. $100 may not seem like a lot per month but when you have a household that hasn't seen a raise in four years, it does hurt. It's a small hit though compared to families with two or three kids in elementary school who may now have to come up with $200 or $300 a month to pay for a minimal amount of before school care.

So while I agree that the greater good is what the decision of the board should ultimately be based on, I don't think it's very nice to discount - or even disparage - the very real impact this will have on some families. The school system surveyed parents to find out what their concerns are and these parents are simply sharing them.

And I didn't know there was an organized response. I live nowhere near Middle Creek and I completed the survey with my concerns.

organized response

Name and responses are revealed....

Sounds like...

we have some amazing parents in Wake County. A ten minute change affects their daily schedule so much? That's one tight daily schedule. Hope these people never get stuck in a traffic jam or have a flat tire.

Also, one would hope all the ones against the schedule changes are democrats and all the ones for it are the family-values republicans.

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About the blogger

T. Keung Hui covers Wake schools.
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