Three Triangle academics weighed in Wednesday with data they say shows the Wake County school system could have problems if it scraps the diversity policy.
As noted in today's article by Thomas Goldsmith, research was presented at the Great Schools in Wake Coalition press briefing showing that high-poverty schools statewide tend to have lower quality teachers. Those schools have the highest percentage of teachers with less than three years' experience, with lower teacher test scores and with degrees from lower-quality colleges.
"By every measure, high-poverty schools have teachers (and also principals) with weaker credentials than other schools," said Helen Ladd, a Duke University professor of public policy studies and economics.
The research presented was largely looking at statewide and national data rather than specifically on Wake County. It didn't appear there was research presented specifically looking at the impact of the diversity policy on low-income students.
Kathleen Brown, head of the educational leadership area at the UNC School of Education, and the other academics who spoke Wednesday conceded that Wake has significant problems under the diversity policy. Notably, there's a persistent achievement gap between students from better-off families and those from lower-income and minority groups.
Comments
No, I am not in favor of segregating schools!!!!!!
Fri, 03/19/2010 - 11:39 — louiselee44But I do find this interesting:
Legislators are very interested in schools such as Carter Community Charter School in Durham. The principal, Mr. Taylor, " noted that Carter's all-minority student body had done well in state end-of-grade tests in the 2008-09 school year, with 64 percent performing at or above grade level in reading and nearly 83 percent in math." Read the article:
http://heraldsun.com/printer_friendly/6651316
Also, "An essential component to Carter Community's performance is parental involvement; parents have logged over 1,000 hours of volunteer time and will monitor and teach classes when teachers are otherwise engaged."
So the 40% figure is not magic as far as student achievement goes...Who knows, maybe parental involvement will increase in Wake's community schools. Wouldn't it be great if this new plan does indeed turn out to be beneficial to our students - then we'll all be smiling...right?
The Problem Is That
Sat, 03/20/2010 - 09:42 — chaboard...there's good reason to believe that the kids siloed into the high poverty neighborhood schools will be at schols with a lot LESS parental involvement than the ones they currenly go to.
New research
Sat, 03/20/2010 - 01:49 — SDR256Thank you Louise for posting another hopeful example. I'm sorry that you have to declare - like with a warning sign - that you are not a racist. There are many of us who have taken the arrows for that in the efforts to do the right thing for the children of this county.
The key thing that I would like to point out is that, yes, we need to continue to study hopeful models for what some would call 'at risk' groups of children. However, I have become riveted by some new data that shows that by simply matching children with appropriate programs incredible things happen. By NOT giving 85% of AG poor and minority children REMEDIAL programs, as we do now, by giving children appropriately rigorous programs - national studies show that the achievement gap disappears.
Excuse me for emphasizing here a bit Louise, I know you will not take it personally. By giving children appropriately rigorous programs - national studies show that the achievement gap disappears.
But of course that would mean that we would have to stop stop labeling children and stop thinking of poor children as less able to learn. But, you know, whatever, there is so much real estate at risk.
If you are right, what's
Fri, 03/19/2010 - 12:39 — carson79If you are right, what's going on at Barwell?
Have you visited there? Talked to the principal about the challenges?
Carson
Fri, 03/19/2010 - 13:46 — louiselee44The only thing you could mean as far as my being "right" goes, is my opinion that 40% is not a magic number. Do you think it is?
I was only sharing something that I thought was interesting - didn't give an opinion about it. Please don't always assume that I have some hidden agenda, meaning, or ulterior motive when I post things. I really do try to be respectful and fair. Thanks...
No, I don't think I have
Fri, 03/19/2010 - 14:13 — carson79No, I don't think I have ever said that 40% is a magic number - and neither does WCPSS since they have just reviewed hte schools performance that go other this % - not shut them down or redistributed everyone.
Great!
Fri, 03/19/2010 - 16:06 — louiselee44Then we agree!
That school is a success
Fri, 03/19/2010 - 12:07 — danofncThat school is a success story.....but it also only has 220 students.
As a charter school, it probably doesn't have to provide transportation, which means parents who apply are likely to be more able to volunteer. It also means that your 40% comparison is meaningless, because "minority" in this example and F&R numbers used in Wake are based on different criteria.
Also, there is basically one class per grade level, and those classes average about 15 kids per class.
I think one can choose to
Fri, 03/19/2010 - 12:37 — red_balloonI think one can choose to look at what might apply to WCPSS. Or not.
I don't think anyone argues
Fri, 03/19/2010 - 15:22 — danofncI don't think anyone argues that small classes and involved parents make a ton of difference.
I just don't think it's a realistic model for a 140,000 student school system.
Doesn't have to be...
Fri, 03/19/2010 - 16:10 — Bob_SconceThere's no reason that this model can't be a solution for part of the 140,000 students. There's no single solution that will educate them all.
It already is, isn't it?
Fri, 03/19/2010 - 16:38 — danofncIt already is, isn't it? Doesn't Raleigh have a charter school?
Several...
Fri, 03/19/2010 - 17:08 — Bob_SconceIIRC, we have something like 12 charter schools. I'm not aware that any of them are following the same model that this Durham charter school is. Perhaps if the GA would allow for more charters, somebody could create one here.
Are you talking about
Fri, 03/19/2010 - 16:44 — jenmanAre you talking about KIPP? There's no KIPP in Wake. There's one in Gaston Cty (I think that's the county--I'm drawing a blank for some reason) and I think there's talk of one in Durham. But no plans for Wake.
"An essential component to
Fri, 03/19/2010 - 12:00 — user12345I think no one will disagree with you that if parents are fully engaged in their children's lives that it makes a difference ... that was shown with KIPP where parents have to sign a contract ...
I am not sure why you think a community model will make a difference. The lowest performing school in the county is Barwell where 95% of the kids live within 2 miles of the school. Overall, 90% of the kids go to their neighborhood school (<=5 miles) today. The other 10% are scheduled to be sent back to lower performing schools. So,while parental participation is wonderful, doing away with diversity won't make a difference. Truthfully, lower growth due to the economy will have a greater effect on stability.
I was only sharing something
Fri, 03/19/2010 - 13:48 — louiselee44that I thought was interesting - not trying to set up an argument, I promise. It's hard not to get paranoid about people reading something into every word typed.
In fact, I made sure to be careful in how I worded this post. I only said,"...IF this new plan does indeed turn out to be beneficial ..."
My opinion that 40% is not a magic number still stands.
No arguement ... and very
Fri, 03/19/2010 - 14:34 — user12345No arguement ... and very interesting ... it confirms that parental support is very important ... the question is how to encourage that to the scale of 150k kids. As with the KIPP program even most supportive parents might not sign a contact, have their kids wear uniforms, have them at school until 5pm and on Saturdays .... on the 40% ...a previous discussion was talking about the idea that 60% is the new 40% ... 30 year ago when I moved here there were few poor people but as the years have gone on, the area has attracted a lot of people looking for work ... many with meager resources and marginal skills .... ultimately, once you get too many poor kids in a school it reduces diversity of ability / offering ... so, if most of the school is taking remedial classes, it leaves few options for bright kids ... you can see that play out at Knightdale and Garner HS where participation in AP classes is very low so if you are a bright kid going to those schools your opportunity is limited compared to if you attended Wakefield.
What stands for me is that moving kids will not have any educational effect ... hiring a new lawyer, relocating a HS, moving back and forth from YR to Traditional calendar has not effect on eduction ... I am waiting for the eduction actions that will improved the schools such as vocational schools, rehire TAs, after school tutoring, AP class equity, expansion of language offerings, etc. Those things will make a difference.
a previous discussion was
Fri, 03/19/2010 - 14:37 — jenmana previous discussion was talking about the idea that 60% is the new 40% ..
I agree ... the important
Fri, 03/19/2010 - 17:36 — user12345I agree ... the important element is the desire not to create schools packed with poor kids ... so 60% is better than 100% ... as I told woody, if people don't like income use % graduation, %pass EOC/EOG, % in AP, they all correlate with income and ultimately will deliver the additional resources to the same schools.
WSCA meeting location change
Fri, 03/19/2010 - 11:14 — jenmanWSCA meeting change! We found out today that K&S Cafeteria is closing their Raleigh location next week. So this month's WSCA meeting is going to be held at their Cary location instead. Time and date are the same:
Wednesday, March 24 6-8pm
K&S Cafeteria
South Hills Mall
1177 Buck Jones Road
(919/462-8404)
Come join us for dinner and conversation!
Kathleen Brown, head of the
Thu, 03/18/2010 - 18:21 — jenmanKathleen Brown, head of the educational leadership area at the UNC School of Education, and the other academics who spoke Wednesday conceded that Wake has significant problems under the diversity policy. Notably, there's a persistent achievement gap between students from better-off families and those from lower-income and minority groups.
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OT, but has anybody heard what significant problems these groups admit exist? Besides the generic achievement gap? What do they consider to be flaws in the system? Curious because this is the same sort of BS we've been hearing for years. "Yes, we realize there are problems but nah, we're not really going to do anything about it."
What solutions do these groups have? Do they really recognize the issues or is this just a pat on the head?
They are the last minute
Thu, 03/18/2010 - 18:31 — DrActualFactualThey are the last minute distraction thrown in out of desperation by the opposition. Ms. Brown with her social justice background--did she see the Public Policy Poll that indicated no support for forced busing in the AA community? Makes you wonder if she is helping them or herself. As Miss V says, follow the money. She is just another among the UNC group that wants to study us but live the high life in Chapel Hill. Try your ideas on Carrboro for a change, we're done.
So UNC's no good, huh? What
Thu, 03/18/2010 - 19:06 — tipsRGSo UNC's no good, huh? What about the "arguments" from this smug blowhard at the Carolina Review: "The costs of this policy are enormous. There is the outright monetary cost of having to pay for the extra fuel for the buses and extra drivers." and "The four to six hours he spends on the bus every day to satisfy some guilt-ridden liberal’s feel-good diversity policy." Is this dude living the high life in Chapel Hill?
Also, a die-hard conservative saying "follow the money" is too hilarious for words.
As a student at UNC, the
Thu, 03/18/2010 - 21:00 — Tony_LucasAs a student at UNC, the Carolina Review is something that many of us read for laughs because some of the articles in the magazine are absurd. They actually had an article about why you shouldn't recycle because it's bad for the environment. I doubt that any real research was done for the Wake County article.
Huh?
Thu, 03/18/2010 - 19:50 — Bob_SconceI don't understand why that's funny. I'm fairly conservative and believe that you can often find who pushed a policy by who wins under the policy. Bootleggers and Baptists applies to a lot more than just alcohol.
I do believe we are.h
Thu, 03/18/2010 - 19:05 — Dove314By virtue of the attitude displayed, I do believe we are.
BS? Uh, did you mean to
Thu, 03/18/2010 - 18:39 — carson79BS? nice language..
And I would ask these same good questions you have :
What solutions do these groups have? Do they really recognize the issues or is this just a pat on the head?
of the new Board - I have seen ZERO evidence that they have anywhere near the knowledge they should have to do the job. Prickett and Malone did not even have a comment about the resolution that sure smells a lot like "policy."
and these Educatoin School folks are not writing our policies - I find it extremely discouraging that you are calling their comments "BS" and questioning them critically but have FAILED completely to use this treatment on the ones who are actually deciding for ALL of us!!
Hypocrite.
I think you've actually used
Thu, 03/18/2010 - 19:51 — jenmanI think you've actually used the term BS on here before. I don't find it offensive.
I'm beyond discouraged
Thu, 03/18/2010 - 19:03 — Dove314By the same thing.
The double standard is becoming very clear to me at this point.
Keung
Thu, 03/18/2010 - 13:46 — louiselee44Off topic, but have you informed parents of the AG survey that is on the WCPSS website until April 2nd? You probably have and I just missed it, but if not, could you please mention it in a post??!!
Thanks!
Louise, where is it?
Thu, 03/18/2010 - 14:21 — NWRaleighMomLouise, where is it?
Click on Morning Announcments
Thu, 03/18/2010 - 14:28 — MomknowsbestClick on Morning Announcements and it will be under Recent Entries.
Thanks! So, the program is
Thu, 03/18/2010 - 14:34 — NWRaleighMomThanks! So, the program is going to change. This is a welcome news.
I actually haven't seen it.
Thu, 03/18/2010 - 14:18 — KeungHui (author)I actually haven't seen it. It doesn't appear to be on the home page so I'll have to hunt around to find it.
link
Thu, 03/18/2010 - 20:41 — red_balloon...http://www.wcpss.net/announcements/archives/2010/03/ag_parent_surve.html
There are two links on that page, one for ES and one for MS. While searching, I came across a similar link from 2007. I guess they do these surveys periodically.
See a couple of posts up to see where to find the AG survey
Thu, 03/18/2010 - 14:59 — louiselee44I actually found out from a WakePAGE yahoo email. Keung, out of fairness to these parents, could you please push for this to be publicized in the N&O - or at the very least, put up a short post about it? Thanks...
P.S. - any AG parent who is not familiar with WakePAGE needs to "google it" and check it out!
Louise, thanks! just found
Thu, 03/18/2010 - 15:04 — AngelaWLouise, thanks! just found out my ES will be sending out letters to parents of AG students with info about the link, the understanding through WCPSS was that it didn't go "live" until the 23rd. (although I was able to fill it out already)
you're welcome!
Thu, 03/18/2010 - 15:07 — louiselee44Looks like they posted it yesterday.
I just did it
Thu, 03/18/2010 - 13:55 — MomknowsbestSaw the survey while checking up on something else. I wonder whether if they will alert all AG parents, doubt it though.
I hadn't heard anything
Thu, 03/18/2010 - 14:06 — jenmanI hadn't heard anything about this until Louise posted the info. Did you notice that the focus groups are meeting next week? I definitely haven't seen any news about that. One meeting is during the BOE meeting and the other is on Thursday afternoon.
Yes, at 4pm both days, Carroll and Joyner
Thu, 03/18/2010 - 14:15 — MomknowsbestDid not pick a date as 4pm is not a good time. Also they should pick several venues, one in each district to be fair. Oh well, at least I got my 2 cents in.
comparing
Thu, 03/18/2010 - 11:19 — Janeknowsbest"It would literally mean that the comparison of magnets with high FRL to base schools with high FRL are meaningless wouldn't it? "
Aren't those comparisons of limited value since they assume that all kids who qualify for F&R are the same? It's very possible that an ED child from SE Raleigh is coming to school with a whole different set of challenges than say a ED child who lives in Eastern Wake or in Garner
That is the question.
Thu, 03/18/2010 - 13:25 — Dove314I thought I had understood from information Eric B. has shared comparing scores and statistics from various schools by their FRL status, that base schools with a high %FRL were outperforming magnet schools with a higher %FRL; and districts using neighborhood assignments with a like %FRL were outperforming WCPSS with the current assignment model.
But what Woodstock seems to be suggesting is that FRL is so misused by parents/children that the measure is not valid, instead representing an unknown mix of SES and thus cannot be used to compare results from base versus magnet or district to district and thus we have no real data upon which to make conclusions.
I'm actually perplexed as to how to interpret.
Of course you are perplexed.
Thu, 03/18/2010 - 14:01 — woodstockOf course you are perplexed. Everyone should be perplexed as to why Wake County assigns students and sets policy based on fictitious F&R numbers ...or that they would even use them as a basis for decisions if they were accurate. If Wake had not been assigning meaning to the F&R status for the past decade and made it part of our lexicon, if someone suggested that this would now be used as a measure of school diversity, we'd all be laughing at them wondering what they were smoking.
That's not true. If the
Thu, 03/18/2010 - 14:10 — danofncThat's not true.
If the F&R kids were still the ones considered ED, and the gap between ED and NED was still as great, I'd hope that all these people concerned about "every child" would be wondering how to help them catch up.
The gap between ED and NED suggests that there is some meaning there, whether you want to admit it or not.
I suppose it's a lot easier to place blame, though.
Okay then, an ED kid is
Thu, 03/18/2010 - 14:18 — woodstockOkay then, an ED kid is identified. Tell me specifically what WCPSS does now to address that fact educationally other than target him or her as low-achieving?
The same question applies to the new board. What's the plan?
Thu, 03/18/2010 - 14:53 — prescott2The same question has been posed to the new board and the silence is deafening. Surely busing ED back is not the solution. What's the plan? How will it be funded? What are the expected results? In what timeframe? You started this revolution- didn't you think it through beyond rallying angry voters to the polls? I've aske you and WCSA this question over a year ago - multiple times- have yet to hear about a specifc education plan.
Take the earplugs out. Have
Fri, 03/19/2010 - 07:42 — woodstockTake the earplugs out. Have you heard nothing about the 9-15 month planning period with community input, community assignment zones, bringing in business and community resources, afterschool programs, etc?
Plan
Thu, 03/18/2010 - 23:19 — SDR256Are you saying that you would rather have had this board devise a plan without community input? That, from what I understand IS the plan - to spend the next 9 - 15 months working this out in public with the public. As posted by klanders on a separate thread, removing the SES label is one of the aspects of the plan to improve student achievement. Students are currently being damaged by the at-risk modeling/labeling dependent/class based system. There is signficant evidence that by simply matching children with programs that are level appropriate, instead of remediating perfectly capable students only because they have the 'wrong' SES label, that the achievement gap will shrink, if not disappear. Come on Wednesday - K&S Cafeteria in Raleigh 6 - 8 pm if you want to talk about it.
What community input?
Thu, 03/18/2010 - 23:32 — Dove314They've already decided what they are doing, picked a committee that will support their plans, and insured the community has no vote anyway.
They ignore any questions, requests for discussion, and disagreement from their fellow minority board members and anyone else who dares to question them.
And they flex their political muscle at every turn to insure there is a constant reminder that the new majority is running the show.