Is a K-8 school conversion the answer to Hilburn Drive Elementary's underenrollment and the lack of capacity for northwest Raleigh middle schools?
As noted in today's article by Chelsea Kellner, Wake Count Superintendent Tony Tata will present a plan to the school board on Tuesday to convert Hilburn to a K-8 campus for the 2012-13 school year. It would be the first combined elementary and middle school in Wake since before the 1976 merger.
“This is an idea that would save money and be very value-added to this community,” Tata told Hilburn parents at a meeting at the school on Wednesday.
The conversion would allow Wake to at least temporarily hold off on plans for building a small middle school off Leesville Church Road. Instead, Wake could use the unspent bond money to build a bigger high school in Apex than the one proposed for Cary.
The Hilburn conversion would answer the need for middle school seats in northwest Raleigh, where crowding has been aggravated by Leesville Road Middle's conversion back to a traditional calendar.
But it wouldn't help with efforts to add more year-round middle school seats in that part of the county.
The proposal drew some concerns from Hilburn parents, such as holding middle school and elementary school students under one roof and what kind of middle school programs would be offered.
“I’m still skeptical on how they could truly keep the younger children from being negatively influenced by older students,” said Rodney Marcum, whose third-grade daughter attends Hilburn.
Other parents wanted to make sure the school would have the same extracurricular and academic opportunities as larger conventional middle schools. Tata assured them that staff would work to make the school equal.
The proposed change is the latest chapter in efforts to help fill Hilburn, which got a STEM program from Tata to lure families to the school. Some school board members had talked about turning Hilburn into a sixth-grade center.
UPDATE
Tata said at today's news conference that he'll present the Hilburn conversion to the school board on Tuesday as part of a series of revisions to the draft 2012-13 student assignment plan.
Tata said he'll want to see Tuesday if the conversion will at least get initial approval since it will impact the rest of the student assignment plan.
Tata said he'd like to use the Hilburn conversion as a pilot to test the feasibility of other K-8 schools in the district. He said it could save construction dollars at a time when money is tight.
Comments
Wow...
Tue, 09/06/2011 - 15:02 — letsgetalongWow... a lot of opinions on this topic.
I am a Hilburn parent and was there at the meeting where Tata proposed this idea.
First, to set the record straight (at least the way I understood it)... the meeting was not meant to be secretive-- in fact representatives from the media outlets were present and the Hilburn PTA did all they could to "advertise" it. The meeting was intended for Mr. Tata to get a feel for whether Hilburn parents thought the idea was feasible. Remember, this was the first week of school, and Mr. Tata wanted to get feedback on the idea as soon as he could. All but a handful present were in favor.
Second, the reason behind the idea... Mr. Tata was very clear. It came to him as a brainstorm-- he had two problems: 1) underenrollment at Hilburn, and 2) projected overenrollment at Leesville Middle. There is $36M set aside in construction money for a new Middle that would be built to accomodate the projected 350 student overenrollment at LRMS. Why not save that money in this time of economic uncertainty and solve both issues at once? Then Mr. Tata went about researching the idea: 1) do a feasibility study including cost estimates, etc, 2) research K-8 effectiveness, etc 3) get feedback from Hilburn parents, 4) etc... (I know there was more, but can't remember any other details). There was no pretense that the idea came as anything other than a solution to the facilities issues. Then came the good news... the K-8 methodology has actually been shown to improve academic results. (**Note, this is my interpretation of his comments, I am not professing to speak on his behalf.)
And the last thing I'd like to make sure is clear is regarding from where the students would come. This has not yet been decided (remember, last week's meeting was just to feel out feasibility-- the details are yet to be determined), but Mr. Tata mentioned two main ideas. First, let the classes build cumulatively like they did at Heritage High-- that is, the first year have only K-6, the second year K-7, etc. The Hilburn 5th graders would move on up, so to speak. The other option would be to open the enrollment to application. I believe the new choice assignment program would allow students in the immediate area to attend the school without application, but the school may be open to applications as well. None of this has been decided.
I can tell you as a Hilburn parent, that I am ALL FOR this K-8 idea. Our school has endured the last few years, watching literally half of its population go to either Sycamore Creek or Leesville, and leave us behind with staffing issues galore. Thank goodness Mr. Tata came in and saw the issues we were dealing with!
And a note on STEM: the idea was that it would make Hilburn a more attractive choice for local families and perhaps fewer would opt for Sycamore or Leesville, but alas it has not happened. Last year Hilburn's enrollment was just over 500 (already severely underenrolled), this year it is 350. This is primarily due to the opening of Walnut Creek ES and the moving of students there, but there has not been the move for local families to enroll at Hilburn as Tata had hoped.
By the way... Hilburn has provided nothing short of an exceptional educational experience for my children.
K thru 8
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 13:45 — Dove314Isn't the real issue, why only Hilburn and why now? As some of the references mentioned below have noted, a K thru 8 school could work and has worked well elsewhere. But, given K thru 8 together is a viable and potentially advantageous program, shouldn't there be a comprehensive plan to phase K thru 8 programs in at various points around WCPSS (to provide that choice throughout WCPSS) rather than singling out one (and only one) school in WCPSS to be a K thru 8 school, not because anyone had brought forward data suggesting it could lead to improvements in achievement but rather as a means to solve an underenrollment and facilities management problem?
didn't you read? Tata said
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 14:42 — AngelaWdidn't you read?
you certainly sound like you
Tue, 09/06/2011 - 11:00 — jeannie84Angela: you certainly sound like you were at that exclusive meeting (you seem to have all the answers), but aren't your kids at Leesville? I guess invitations were distributed based on "who you know"
wow, some anonymous
Tue, 09/06/2011 - 12:24 — AngelaWwow, some anonymous blogger/stalker seems to know all about me and my kids (how dare you) but won't even admit to having kids in the system or not.
not worth my time or effort
wow, some anonymous
Tue, 09/06/2011 - 12:24 — AngelaWwow, some anonymous blogger/stalker seems to know all about me and my kids (how dare you) but won't even admit to having kids in the system or not.
not worth my time or effort
Can read just fine, thanks!
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 18:03 — Dove314You said it, not me -- "could save construction dollars at a time when money is tight" NOT "we present the following litany of evidence highlighting the superior student achievement performances noted using a K thru 8 model rather than the current standard ES and MS models" and "we propose consideration of where the best options are to pilot such a program in WCPSS" with consideration of many schools in a transparent fashion. Not to mention, there was no presentation about K thru 8 models in general at the EDSATF or to the BoE as a whole until there was a concurrent plan to convert Hilburn.
Note -- not sayng it couldn't be a great program, just saying this is about the most ham-handed way to even "pilot" such an option which is likely to generate the most controversy and negative initial reactions.
Thank you Dove
Mon, 09/05/2011 - 14:39 — valsparThank you, Dove. I knew I could count on you to get it - just as my post showed - the Hilburn proposal is not completely thought through. It is a decision based on one angle, facility utilization. While others here have taken it upon themselves here to show where k-8 worked, did Tata? He could have just as easily made Hilburn a preschool or any kind of specialized grouping school for that quadrant of the county, citing facility utilization. Facility utilization should not be the driving force in the Hilburn decision. The choice model will fill Hilburn up from Leesville being full. Carroll has plenty of room for Leesville overflow.
wow, y'all are just dead set
Mon, 09/05/2011 - 14:54 — AngelaWwow, y'all are just dead set against choices, aren't you?
No, No, and again, No.
Mon, 09/05/2011 - 18:16 — Dove314I think choices have a lot of merit. I'm a fan of choice in school programs being available. I seriously dislike the idea of identical Stepford cookie cutter programs in place at each of the ES, MS, and HS levels as I don't think that works for kids given they learn in different ways.
"Dead set against choices" isn't what I said. What I actually said was that a K thru 8 program could be a good choice. My argument has nothing to do with a K thru 8 program being a potential viable and valuable choice which could have benefits on student achievement. My argument is completely with how this idea has been presented and why. To specifically reiterate, this was a poor way to introduce this choice option. It actually seems too similar to the way the Year Round argument was initially made -- best use of facilities, etc.; so close, in fact, that the argument may well lead those at the school or who might have had an interest in the program to see a K thru 8 program as forced upon them rather than any sort of choice at all. And, unless presented carefully, since it wasn't initially part of the STEM program, it could actually hurt the STEM program adoption by parents and children as well, especially those who like the STEM program but may not want their child locked in to attending a K thru 8 for middle school.
Also, to adopt the program would complicate any studies of the effects of the STEM program on student achievement and it would be absolutely hopeless to determine whether any beneficial effects for the MS students was due to the K thru 8 program. If data driven decisions are needed to determine best options for student achievement, this is just not the best way to introduce the program. There should be at least one school somewhere in WCPSS which is piloting JUST a K thru 8 option to have the proper comparitive population. No matter how hard you try to make this about opposing choices, please just stop and ponder all of the arguments you've tried to make about a need to focus on student achievement and putting it first. If you really want a K thru 8 program to be a real, viable, and long term successful choice, then it needs to be done properly and with a specific goal of improving student achievement. This means such a program needs a proper plan and metrics for what constitutes success and ways to identify problems which can, over the next many years, really provide the evidence to showcase a program's benefits and/or highlight improvements needed to optimize the program to benefit the most students possible. If nothing else has been learned from the MYR debacle and fall out along with the divide on magnet programs, shouldn't we have learned that you shouldn't make program decisions on the basis of facilities management? That instead, program decisions should be made with a primary focus on student acheivement?
k-8 program DO work, see
Mon, 09/05/2011 - 18:32 — AngelaWk-8 program DO work, see Chatham county for a local comparision, check throughout the US for others.
Hilburn was already showing student achievement, view their test scores, so why would adding MS grades not work? why won't STEM work?
and the families that were present were all for it by a show of hands, so we need to start somewhere. how long do we "study" things before we lose a whole other population of children? I think Tata made the right call, IMHO and you don't; so write HIM, not the blogs. Arguing your "case" here is rather pointless, don't you think?
really?
Mon, 09/05/2011 - 20:30 — EBDarcySo suddenly facts and data don't mean anything? The small number of people there certainly can't be seen to be representative of the huge number of families who might be affected.
I have no problem with k-8 schools - I attended forut different ones growing up - but they aren't promoting this as a way to boost achievement. It's all about capacity and utilization.
Win-Win
Mon, 09/05/2011 - 23:15 — trekkeroneDon't you think Tata and staff wouldn't have even suggested the K-8 idea if it didn't already have well-documented achievement benefits as well as those addressing capacity? These people are not rookies on the field by any means.
huge WHO?
Mon, 09/05/2011 - 21:18 — AngelaWmight be "affected' how? what part of APPLICATION are you not understanding?
STEM is not about achievment?
A STEM program, increased
Mon, 09/05/2011 - 20:41 — woodstockA STEM program, increased resources, and access to an early college program are not about achievement? Hmm, please explain your indefensible position.
If
Mon, 09/05/2011 - 18:47 — Dove314If your statement of "Arguing your "case" here is rather pointless, don't you think?" were truly followed by everyone posting here, then there would be no posts. Until that time, then this forum is nothing but discussions of topics that are all rather pointless in terms of changing anything about WCPSS unless, of course, BGen Tata, BoE members, and WCPSS staff read a post here or there and make the occasional note of something. Or, where this forum is used for campaign purposes. When you make the same point to all posters here on multiple topics, then perhaps your point is worth considering. Until then, we can all continue the seemingly pointless and sometimes endlessly repetitive discussions here under Keung's watch.
"When you make the same
Mon, 09/05/2011 - 19:11 — AngelaW(and ironically that was the only point you addressed...nothing about the fact that k-8 is successful other places or that fact that the Hilburn families to whom this was presented were ok with it.)
Hmm...
Tue, 09/06/2011 - 07:52 — Dove314It is interesting that you were at the presentation to note the reactions of all there since only those with children at Hilburn and WCPSS staff attended. That aside, Keung's article mentions that not all Hilburn parents are "ok with it" including quotes from some.
As for the rest, I've already repeated the points addressing your other comments sufficiently and you have repeatedly ignored them. There is no point to repeating them yet again to have you ignore them yet again.
It is interesting to note that the discussion here shifts to 100% of acceptance of research done else where or even just "because they've used this program elsewhere" on this particlar subject of K thru 8 programs in contrast to other topics where some of the same posters have been absolutely adamant that only research done in WCPSS with the particular student population here in Wake for a given program was valid due to the unique characteristics of the WCPSS population (very large size, large geographic area, distribution of FRL, etc).
valid points
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 14:34 — Athey01but I have another question... where are these students coming from to fill this school? Since LES and LMS are within one mile of Hilburn, isn't Hilburn part of the Leesville community?
If neighhborhood school (a a little choice, too) is the goal, I would be interested where these students are going to come from.
of course it is
Mon, 09/05/2011 - 20:38 — EBDarcyHilburn and Sycamore Creek, and under the new plan Brier Creek, feed into LRMS and LRHS. Thta's why it's wrong that they were excluded from the conversation.
Where are they coming from ?
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 19:48 — Solon77Significant growth west of Leesville will shortly cause over crowding. As there is no place to build West of Leesville the move to convert Hilburn and thrown in a few extra electives is a way to get parents East of Leesville to voluntarily select Hilburn over Leesville allowing the kids west of Leesville their 1st choice and avoid upsetting a whole bunch of parents.
Interestingly the program equity police are quiet on this - adding resources to a school that very few in the county have access to. Don't get me wrong, I think it is great Hilburn is getting all of these extra resources - but what about the other resource starved schools, when do they get theses added riches.
it's a great way to fill
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 21:31 — AngelaWit's a great way to fill under-enrolled rim schools since so many have been denied access to magnets.
In other words
Mon, 09/05/2011 - 08:34 — Solon77In other words people not happy with their neighborhood school. I guess proximity is not such a priority.
in other words, no, not
Mon, 09/05/2011 - 09:07 — AngelaWin other words, no, not always...it's about choice.period.
current Hilburn families and
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 14:41 — AngelaWcurrent Hilburn families and applications....
Another idea for Hilburn
Fri, 09/02/2011 - 17:12 — valsparSince Tata's thinking outside the box, here's one. Use the Hilburn space for preK only, while phasing out the elementary school grade by grade. 20+ schools (guessing) that need it will get additional classroom space when the PreK leaves. Leave PreK at the schools that do not need the space. And, the choice plan should alleviate Leesville's overcrowding, year by year. Smart Start, More at Four, and Title 1 funding. Anyone?
Brilliant Idea, valspar
Fri, 09/02/2011 - 23:36 — trekkeroneWho cares if the preK kids have siblings at other schools, which would be a hardship on the kids and their parents? Who cares how long the bus ride is for them to get home? Probably one of the dumbest ideas I've read on here yet! And you VOTE. Great.
You missed the point
Sat, 09/03/2011 - 20:11 — valsparOf course its a stupid idea, and based absolutely upon no academic research. Tata's idea to make Hilburn a K-8 is based upon facility utilization - ONLY. Hey - so was mine. It is the best solution for student achievement? Who knows - student achievement was not considered. I bet not inconveniencing the Leesville area was, which is where the overflow is. Tata's thinking of putting K with 8th? I'd prefer research done on the achievement affects of a K-8 vs a 6-8 on the 6, 7 and 8th graders, not to mention the K-5, and how this impacted children once in high school. Get it now? Decisions after research, not knee jerk student assignment plans.
What's stupid is your
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 09:18 — woodstockWhat's stupid is your knee-jerk naysayer mentality. K-8 is not new, the concept was and is used routinely throughout the country -- and the world for that matter -- in including very high performing private schools and academies; so mountains of data exist on effectiveness. However, the plan, if you read the article, is not just about having a K-8 school, but to make it an attractive choice for students and families by offering a STEM program and providing a pipeline to an early college option.
There are thousands of K-8
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 12:39 — jeffrey1I'd prefer research done on the achievement affects of a K-8 vs a 6-8 on the 6, 7 and 8th graders, not to mention the K-5, and how this impacted children once in high school.
Google is your friend: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=K-8+school+benefits
There are thousands of K-8 schools all over the country. In fact, it appears there is a trend in many areas to move away from ES/MS, and towards K-8 schools, because of studies that show better achievement, less discipline problems, more self-esteem, and other benefits of K-8 schools. A small sampling:
From Chatham County:
Six of eight schools in Chatham County (out of 16 schools in total) with performance composite scores above 80% on last school year’s testing were K-8. Six of seven schools that were NC Schools of Distinction for last year were K-8. Four of five schools that met federal Average Yearly Progress were K-8.
From New York City:
A new study that analyzes New York City public schools’ achievement data reveals that test scores of students who enter stand-alone middle schools experience significant drops in their math and English scores on standardized tests compared to their K-8 counterparts.
From Cleveland:
Less than one year after signing on as chief executive officer of the Cleveland schools, Barbara Byrd-Bennett came to the conclusion that the district's 25 middle schools were failing. Overall, test scores plummeted once students reached 6th grade and absence and suspension rates soared... Her solution was this: Begin phasing out middle schools and replace them with K-8 elementary schools...Since the 1999-2000 school year, 21 Cleveland schools have been reconfigured or are in the process of being reconfigured to accommodate kindergarten through 8th grade. The results have been significant, with 6th graders in K-8 schools posting better attendance and higher standardized test scores than their peers in middle school. Down the road, predicts Byrd-Bennett, "We'll basically be a K-8 district."
Interesting but why
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 19:26 — Solon77Interesting but why are the results better ? It would be like saying we should abandon the current school model and go to 100% charter schools because charters schools have higher test scores.
Reports from one study: K-8
Sun, 09/04/2011 - 21:39 — jeffrey1Reports from one study:
Transition to 9th grade
Mon, 09/05/2011 - 08:36 — Solon77Transition to 9th grade is also problematic for many students. Why not carry this one more step and have a mega school K-12. Wouldn't the same apply.
Eh...
Mon, 09/05/2011 - 09:25 — Bob_SconceI think that once you get to high school, economies of scale demands a large student body, which you can't get with just the graduates of a single elementary school. A school like what you proposed wouldn't be able to offer many courses in the high school, at least not efficiently.
Tata proposes combined elementary, middle school
Fri, 09/02/2011 - 22:13 — AngelaWThis year, Hilburn Elementary became a STEM school focusing on science, technology, engineering and mathematics to help attract students
http://www.wral.com/news/education/wake_county_schools/story/10082500/
One school for all the pre-K
Fri, 09/02/2011 - 17:36 — danofncOne school for all the pre-K kids to be bused to from around the county?
I can't imagine anyone would have a problem with that....after all, they're four years old.
:-/
You are right, Dan
Fri, 09/02/2011 - 22:06 — valsparIts an awful idea, but not just for the busing.
Could we consider balancing elementary schools?
Fri, 09/02/2011 - 09:14 — sixpointzeroInteresting that they are considering this path, given that Leesville Elem. (a mere 2 miles away) currently has about 900 students and two full grade levels outside in modular classrooms. Shifting some students from Leesville to Hilburn would still maintain that "neighborhood" quality that the population desires, wouldn't force parents to change calendar options (both are traditional), and would go a long way to solve population concerns at both schools.
Also, I'm not a parent, but I would have concerns about younger children riding the bus with middle schoolers. I don't believe that it would ever be appropriate for first graders to share a bus on a regular basis with seventh graders. I'm sure they would claim that the students would be separated while in the building, but I think it's highly unlikely they would develop separate busing schemes.
I agree
Fri, 09/02/2011 - 11:49 — Athey01However, it appears Leesville parents do not want their children going to Hilburn, under any circumstances. I think making Hilburn a sixth grade center who be a good compromise.
What is it with you people?
Tue, 09/06/2011 - 15:27 — woodstockWhat is it with you people? What is it about choice that gets you all so confused. You act like North Korean immigants who walk into a Harris Teeter for the first time.
Correct
Tue, 09/06/2011 - 15:12 — letsgetalongCorrect... mention any reassignment of LRES students and the VERY LARGE Leesville community starts to scream. Understandably so... it is not uncommon to hear parents relate that their now middle-school children were reassigned 4+ times in their elementary school tenure. Then came the removal of year-round. I'm not a parent there, but the way I understand it LRES parents wants some stability for a change.
generalization
Tue, 09/06/2011 - 20:08 — EBDarcyThat might be true at other schools but I don't think that's the case at Leesville ES. Most of the families I know there have never been reassigned.
We all want stability
Tue, 09/06/2011 - 15:31 — FSandYOUWe've been waiting on it for years. When does it arrive, does anyone know?
yes, but
Fri, 09/02/2011 - 09:17 — EBDarcyThat is the obvious answer to LRES's problem. But Prickett's Leesville supporters won't like it...they don't want their children reassigned.
It would do nothing to alleviate the overcrowding at LRMS.
Eh...
Fri, 09/02/2011 - 09:41 — Bob_SconceThere's a new student assignment plan coming out which is supposed to eliminate mandatory reassignments. The current plan is to have it in place by next year. It seems to me that the new plan should deal with this situation, and we shouldn't be looking to old-plan solutions.
Who wants their kids reassigned or not no longer matters
Fri, 09/02/2011 - 09:35 — FSandYOUWith next year's massive reassignment they can mix the Leesville issue right in with the rest and call it part of the plan. Problem solved.
Yes, it will just be a
Fri, 09/02/2011 - 11:32 — DrActualFactualYes, it will just be a matter of whether you want to refer to your new school as choice #1,2,3or4. At least they may be injecting Some academic/curriculum offerings into the system to sweeten the deal, but in the end it is still a Controlled choice plan. That reminds me, where is the transparency to the weighted algorithms--seems WEP said we'd get to see those. Ahh yes, Ms. Abigail Thernstrom (esteemed author and Harvard Professor) was right; controlled choice assignment plans haven't been on the table for at least two decades and if we select it, Mr. Alves will indeed be laughing his way to the bank. Mayor Meeker, WEP, Raleigh COC didn't do Wake any favors and unless this can be tweaked into some soft-sided version of controlled choice, if implemented poorly it will be worse than MYR/conversion scenario. I sure hope the BOE members read her book "No Excuses."
Laughing his way to the bank
Sat, 09/03/2011 - 09:32 — Solon77The only difference between the Alves plan and the JT plan are the size of the zones and at the end the Alves plan offers a better chance of attending your neighborhood school. JTs zone lines were splitting neighborhoods and would have prohibited many from going to their proximate school.
Tweaked into some soft-sided version - what do you mean ? Do you have a proposal ?
Seems like they are trying
Fri, 09/02/2011 - 07:36 — mnordbergSeems like they are trying to take a lemon and make lemonaid but at some point push comes to shove and you can't put any more lipstick on a pig. Maybe it is time to close the school and then make it into something else that makes more sense. They better get better at this do something with the school when nobody wants to go there with the so called 'choice plan' as that will become the way other schools will become. Also, I find it odd that they are worried about underenrollment, up to this point the school board controls assignment in about 95% of the cases so they are the ones that made it underenrolled, not some parent choice.
And the interesting thing about this school is that it is a neighborhood school. The students assigned to the school are from nodes that are all contiguous and surround the school. What happened to the 90% of people wanting to go to their neighborhood school? Maybe we should just ignore that.
What about an idea to
Fri, 09/02/2011 - 09:08 — woodstockWhat about an idea to provide an appealing STEM program, addressing middle school capacity and saving money is "lipstick?" What is the downside to this?