Will the Wake County school board compromise on the final version of a new middle school math placement policy to go beyond the 5-4 majority that passed it last week?
The Democratic school board members who all voted no said they want to approve a new policy. But they raised concerns that using a 70 percent or higher EVAAS probability of success was too low a cut line. They also said they want to allow teachers to still use professional judgment when they feel a student isn't ready for pre-algebra or Algebra I.
Will the Republican board members who all voted yes compromise on those points to get broader support or stick substantially with what's now in the policy?
Let's start with this handout presented at last week's school board meeting.
Nancy Baenan of Data and Accountability, formerly called Evaluation and Research, was asked by the board to look at some research questions. In particular, school board member Kevin Hill asked about the performance of the Wake students who were in the 70-79 percent probability range.
Of the 98 Wake students placed between 70-79 percent probability, 51 percent scored a Level III or IV to pass the Algebra I end-of-course exam.
Of the 247 Wake students placed with 80-89 percent probability of success, 73 percent passed the Algebra I EOC.
The passing rate rose to 97 percent for the 3,666 students placed who had a 90 to 99 percent EVAAS probability predictor.
Another Wake report looked at 31 Wake students who scored a Level II on the seventh-grade math end-of-grade exam but were placed in Algebra I in eighth-grade for the 2010-11 school year because they had an EVAAS probability of 70 to 79 percent. Fifteen students passed the Algebra I EOC with 14 failing. Two students didn't have an EOC score.
School board vice chairman John Tedesco downplayed the data on the 70 to 79 percent probability students as only representing a small group.
But the Democratic board members repeatedly focused on how only half the 70 to 79 percent probability students were passing.
"I don’t want to set people up for failure," said school board member Carolyn Morrison.
Morrison questioned whether the students who passed did so because they got extra help, which she said would have made it expensive for Wake. She questioned whether that funding for extra support would still exist.
Morrison said the new common core of standards doesn't have students taking Algebra I in eighth-grade. But staff responded that the common course does say that students who are ready for Algebra I are encouraged to take it in eighth-grade.
Hill said he was "hearing from quite a few middle school principals and teachers" about rerostering of courses in which students were dropping out of pre-Algebra after the start of the school year.
Morrison asked why they were only using EVAAS for Algebra I and not other courses like English. Superintendent Tony Tata responded that they only had the EVAAS information for math, which he said offered "some degree of reliability."
Tata was questioned why the policy eliminates the use of professional judgment by teachers to keep students out of pre-algebra and Algebra I. Teachers can only use it to place a student in a harder math course who doesn't meet the 70 percent EVAAS threshold.
"As much as possible, we're trying to remove the bias from the system," Tata said. "What the data shows us is there was bias in the system. It was mostly economically disadvantaged students who were not being placed who were being predicted for success."
Tedesco stressed how important Algebra I in eighth-grade is as a gatekeeper to other courses that help prepare students for college.
"This is not for placement for Algebra’s sake," Tedesco said. "This is for placement for the rest of a student’s life."
Tedesco said the old system resulted in schools not using objective criteria to keep students out of Algebra I in eighth-grade.
School board member Keith Sutton asked "why are we still setting the bar so low" at 70 percent. Tedesco responded that he wanted to give those students an opportunity to succeed.
Let's jump ahead now from the work session to the regular meeting, where some speakers raised concerns about the new math policy.
Bill Muench, a seventh-grade math teacher at Lufkin Road Middle School, congratulated the board for the new policy, saying Wake has been holding back students who would do well in Algebra I in eighth-grade.
But Muench said the EVAAS-based guidelines they're now using have placed a lot of students "who will never ever pass Algebra." He said using 85 percent as the floor is "probably more reasonable." He said getting Ds in Algebra will 'kill them in the future" when students get to high school.
Muench drew light applause from the crowd, which was comprised as usual by mostly supporters of the old diversity policy.
Wake County school board candidate Jim Martin stepped up to the microphone saying that just passing isn't good enough. He's spoken about his concerns about using EVAAS for math placement at several board meetings.
Martin showed the results of N.C. State's chemistry placement exam, where 20 of the 36 questions are Algebra based. He said students on average get 18.6 questions right. For those who don't know, Martin is a chemistry professor at N.C. State.
"If you have children, students who are getting through Algebra with barely the ability to pass it at an EOC level of three, you are discriminating against them because they are not going to be capable to continue into their advanced courses," Martin said.
Martin said it's "reprehensible" to use racial or socioeconomic demographics to keep students out of any course, not just math.
But Martin said Wake's problem isn't that they can't get students into the right tracks. He said the problem is Wake's tracking system is too rigid and needs to be softened.
"Let's address the tracks instead of trying to force people early," Martin said. "Any of our students who can just pass basic Algebra I, we are doing a disservice. If we can get them into Honors Algebra in the eighth-grade, fine.
I would rather every student get into the honors courses rather than trying to rush them and put trophies on our belt to say we got enough students into Algebra."
Martin also drew light applause from the crowd.
Let's move to the discussion that took place at the board table during the regular meeting.
Ron Margiotta used his authority as school board chairman to get the new policy added to the agenda as an action item for first reading. The Democratic members then restated their concerns about the policy.
"As mentioned in the work session, having talked with teachers and principals, looking at the data that was presented, particularly on those students in the EOC Level I and II based on the EVAAS predictor model were 49 percent, or I think as we heard it’s a tossup," Hill said. "I want to be certain that in our attempt to help students, we don’t hurt students. So I have serious concerns about the 70 percent cut line."
Morrison questioned why the board was in "such a hurry" to approve the policy now that the school year has already started. She said they need to study the policy "a little bit more."
Staff said the new policy, if passed, would go into effect for the 2012-13 school year.
Tedesco said they needed to act now, as he pointed to the experiences over the past two years when EVAAS was only used as guidelines and not policy for placement.
"There is a serious division among our middle schools in how they’re implementing this," Tedesco said. "There are those who are implementing it with fidelity — and its guidelines so it’s not policy as we were told routinely by several middle schools that it was guidelines — so those who implemented it with fidelity saw phenomenal success and there are those who have just to some extent practically ignored the guidelines and kind of just went on business as usual.
At this point it’s now prudent to get the system all on the same page and all on track together, and in addition doing this now gives the staff the time they need to work on a lot of pieces of implementation with this.”
Tedesco said staff can use the next year on educating the "stakeholders," i.e. parents. He said they can also educate the staff about the policy and the support they'll need. He said staff can also work on aligning the resources needed at the middle schools.
Tedesco said they can also use the time to develop a compacted math course in fifth-grade that would cover fifth- and sixth-grade math beginning in the 2012-13 school year. This means sixth-graders could take advanced math, which is essentially the regular seventh-grade math course. Then they'd go to pre-algebra in seventh-grade and Algebra I in eighth-grade.
Another benefit of passing the policy now, according to Tedesco, is that staff can work with high school principals to help plan for the additional students that will come into advanced math courses. He said some principals are already doing that planning.
Morrison again questioned why they were only doing this for math and not English, saying she hasn't been asked to solve an algebraic equation since 9th- or 10th-grade.
Morrison, who was a classroom teacher early in her career, also touched on the teacher professional judgment issue.
“Since teachers won’t be allowed to make reasoned decisions concerning Algebra placement, will we apply this policy to other courses as well?" Morrison said. "I have real concerns about kind of tying the teachers' hands, in my opinion. I respect the teachers so much. I think we need to give them all the support they can have.”
Hill said he wants to make sure his questions are answered before the second reading. He said he wants information on rerostering caused by seventh-graders pulling out of pre-algebra because the work is too difficult. He said he also wants to know if there is any longitudinal data on students who take Algebra I in the eighth-grade in terms of how far they progress in taking math.
Board member Anne McLaurin said she wants an update on statewide Algebra I placement data to see how Wake compares. The handout only has N.C. data for 2007-08.
McLaurin also echoed Morrison's concerns about the restrictions on teacher judgment.
"I am concerned if there is a belief that people think that teachers are restricting placement in Algebra," McLaurin said. "But I also think there are ways to approach placement if a teacher is concerned, like including the principal or including the area superintendent or someone else, because it does look like in the 70 to 80 percent there really are a number of kids that are going to get very challenged and perhaps give up math.
And that is not what your intention is, I’m sure. So I would think that if there was some way to include a teacher recommendation without making that the only criteria of placing them."
Sutton suggested they "look at some sort of compromise on that 70 percent cut line so that we can have consensus agreement around the table on this policy." He said he also wants more information on how support would be provided to schools to implement the new policy.
"I support the intent of this policy and I don’t think I have to go very far out on a limb to say that everybody around the table I’m sure probably supports the intent of this policy," Sutton said.
Then you had the 5-4 party line vote with Hill saying he hopes to vote yes on the second reading. Even as Margiotta cast the vote to break the tie, he said he expects adjustments to be made for the second reading. He said he'd like to get everybody on board for this policy.
Let's jump ahead to Friday's press conference in which Tata spoke out strongly for the new policy. He said the policy was passed on first reading “in part to correct historic underrepresentation of disadvantaged and minority students in advanced math classes.”
In addition to Algebra, Tata said staff is identifying several other "key pivot points" along K-12 to help make students ready for college.
"It is the core belief of this school system that all children, regardless of socioeconomic circumstances, can be high-achieving students, and what the data shows is that we were not placing about 50 percent of qualified students in pre-algebra or Algebra I soon enough, or at all," Tata said. "Where necessary, we will use data to put our core beliefs into practice and help all students. That is our charge.
And of course we value the experience and professionalism and judgment of our math teachers, and I know they’re working hard to ensure that all students are successful, and I thank them for their input on this important issue."
Later on in the press conference, I asked Tata about the concerns raised that using a 70 percent cutoff could set students up for failure.
Tata noted that the data only looked at 98 students. But he said he might recommend that parents of students who have a 70 to 75 percent probability meet with school staff and the principal to discuss placement. (Tedesco said he might support that idea.)
But Tata rejected the idea that it's discriminatory to place those students who are between 70 to 79 percent probability of success.
“We know we’re setting them up for failure if we don’t put them into Algebra," Tata said. "That’s a fact. All the research nationwide shows that the sooner you take Algebra I and make a C or better, the more likely you are to go to college. That is an indisputable fact around the nation.
We know that one pathway to failure is the pathway where we choose not to look at this data and move students into Algebra I. It is for some people perhaps riskier to try to encourage students or place students into Algebra if their indicator is in the 70th percent range. But I would rather take the risk of that student succeeding than betting that student can not succeed.”
CORRECTED TO SAY 20 OF THE 36 QUESTIONS ON NC STATE'S CHEM PLACEMENT EXAM DEAL WITH ALGEBRA

Comments
Rerostering only measures
Tue, 09/13/2011 - 01:09 — LongtimeLurkerRerostering only measures how many kids were pushed out by teachers who did not want them placed in the first place. Saying it measures kids who found the class too difficult assumes there is no bias against what the schools are now actively calling "the EVAAS"kids.
I once heard an 8th grade Algebra teacher in Wake county say with some satisfaction she had convinced every single child who was in on a waiver rather than a teacher recomendation to move down to a lower class in the first few weeks.
Rerostering means nothing.
Stay focused! No teacher judgement!
Tue, 09/13/2011 - 00:47 — LongtimeLurkerAll well to debate the 70-79% range. They definitely are tipping their hand there. Even Holdzkom's bogus report last year said hundreds of kids in the 70 - 79% range took Algebra last year. And again, what was the successs rate at East Garner? These are the same people who never wanted to let these kids in at all. Now they want to deal.
But stay MORE focused on the request to reinsert teacher judgement. That is where we win or lose the entire war! If there was not HUNDREDS of black kids in the 90-99% range kept out of 8th grade Algebra by teacher judgement in Wake county last year, I will shut up and never post again. That number will be closer to 500 than 100 - the best and brightest minorities were kept out last year by teacher judgement. I guarantee it.
What is the number? And why will no one tell us? That number proves why we cannot have teacher judgement allowed to move kids down when EVASS says they will succeed. That number will shut up all opposition - what is it?
No teacher judgement to move kids down - that is the most important thing.
Still going too low?
Mon, 09/12/2011 - 12:08 — Bob_SconceBased on the presentation, fully 76% of the students with scores between 90 & 99 got IV's on the Algebra I test.
It seems to me that this is a missed opportunity -- shouldn't these students be in some sort of 8th Grade Algebra I+ class?
Good point
Tue, 09/13/2011 - 10:05 — NWRaleighMomWhat opportunities do advanced kids have in other districts (or in Wake's magnet schools)?
"Morrison again questioned
Mon, 09/12/2011 - 09:33 — shearertw"Morrison again questioned why they were only doing this for math and not English, saying she hasn't been asked to solve an algebraic equation since 9th- or 10th-grade."
Ms. Morrison,
I respect your narrow view of the world...however, as someone who is asked to solve algebraic equations on a daily basis in a technology based field I must strongly disagree with your premise that English placement is even remotely equivalent to math placement at this time. I hate to tell you, but we don't need any more English majors in the US. We don't need more people graduating from college with only the ability to quote Shakespeare and write a nice essay. We are short on scientist, engineers and tech savvy skilled workers. In general, these people need strong math skills. It's not that we don't need workers to be able to read and write proper English, but the basic level of English placement seems to be doing just fine.
I’ve said this here several times and Sup. Tata seems to share this view. Failure is not in trying and falling short, but not trying at all.
Can these kids not retake Algebra I if they do not do well the first time around? Are the lib/dem BOE members just really concerned about “test scores” and how the school system will be viewed from afar? Don’t the parents still have a choice of whether or not their kids take Algebra I or not? Aren’t the parents the real authority on whether it’s a good idea for their kid to accept this challenge/opportunity? Can’t the parents set up their own meeting with the teachers/principal and get their opinion?
This discussion is only about the default placement, not the ultimate placement. Clearly the dem/lib position is that the default should be to hold kids back (particularly ED kids) while the conservative/rep position is to give kids a chance at success. That’s what makes this debate so interesting…
Logical structure
Wed, 09/14/2011 - 02:37 — SDR256Oh stop. Some of us learn logical structure through language and some of us learn logical structure through mathematics (or related sciences). Neither approach is better or worse. You are betraying your lack of education to suggest otherwise. The important point for a child is for them to have opened to them a world which was previously unstructured and is then now structured. For some this happens through language and from some through mathematics. Who would ever conceive to shut off either door?
Respectfully disagree. I am
Mon, 09/12/2011 - 23:55 — jeffrey1Respectfully disagree. I am a high school math tutor, and have alwasys worked in technology, but we need our kids to be able to write. Whether it's a "nice essay," or the user manual for a complex piece of software, mankind needs to be able to communicate ideas to one another. We have all probably met some people who are brilliant in their respective fields, but lack the ability to write a coherent sentence.
I use to interview college graduates for technical positions in a company I worked for. We considered their communication skills as much as, if not more than, their technological skills.
I'm not sure we're as far
Tue, 09/13/2011 - 07:58 — shearertwI'm not sure we're as far apart as you think so let me clarify.
I didn't say being able to communicate wasn't important, just that placement in advanced English classes is not the issue of the day compared with advanced math placement (that's what Morrison was suggesting). It seems to me that the "basic" or "regular" English track we currently have for students is not what is holding them up from future success, like that of the math placement. Also, I still stand by my statement that we need less people majoring in English, literature, philosophy, etc graduating from college. Good communication skills, definitely....but you don't need to be an English major to get that.
OK, I can agree with
Tue, 09/13/2011 - 18:43 — jeffrey1OK, I can agree with that.
But if you've ever been frustrated with getting some piece of software to work as advertised, you can appreciate that we still have a long way to go in teaching our kids good communicaton skills.
The real questions....
Mon, 09/12/2011 - 09:15 — Bob_SconceOut of the students in the 70-79 range, how many:
(1) Were successful, but their 7th grade teachers recommended AGAINST placing in Algebra?
(2) Were not successful, but their 7th grade teachers recommended IN FAVOR of placing in Algebra?
If the board minority wants to add teacher recommendations back into the equation, shouldn't they have some evidence showing that the recommendations would have improved the situation?
And, as long as I'm listing questions:
(3) What were the classroom grades of those students who performed at level II?
This answer would give you an idea of whether the students were successful, despite what the EOCs said.
Completely agree with the
Mon, 09/12/2011 - 09:52 — mnordbergCompletely agree with the the additional questions 1) & 2) as it would give a better understanding of how well teachers are doing in recommendations. Your third question is a very interesting one in that it goes to 2 bigger questions
1. What is the correlation of student grades and end of year tests? Do classroom A's equate to higher test scores and likewise down the line
2. Are the tests an accurate representation of student performance and do they really represent what students need in terms of a minimal level of Algebra knowledge for other classes.
I think the discussion is valuable in a more subjective subject like math where there is a right and wrong answer to if students know Algebra before moving on to using EVAAS to place students in other areas.
I think in the end the 70% should be pushed up to 75% or 80% at least to get students in a position to pass and then those students in the 65-75/80% classes could be grouped together in classes for another year to make them ready to be successful.
Why are we aiming to have
Mon, 09/12/2011 - 10:12 — shearertwWhy are we aiming to have everyone be "successful" all the time?
If everyone is passing, then no one is being challenged. What ever happened to having your classroom grades look like a bell curve? It seems we're afraid of having anyone fall on the left side of that curve. What, exactly, is wrong with challenging a kid and having them come up short? Are we afraid we might have to actually take the time and teach someone...work with them? I'm guessing the kids in the 90% range aren't challenged at all by Algebra I and need very little help. So some kids in the 70% range need some extra help....isn't that what a teacher does.....teach?
I simply do not understand this fear of challenging people to go above "expectations". Every child we don't give that opportunity to that good have risen to the challenge is a real travesty. It's shameful to miss those opportunities.
This data still convinces me
Mon, 09/12/2011 - 11:35 — DrActualFactualThis data still convinces me it is worth giving the kids the chance. The handouts provide info on page 3 that (when looking at notes 1 and 3) 96% passed the course and 93.5 passed the test...nearly all passed. In the conclusion we are told that the students that had the lowest scores in the beginning (didn't necessarily experience a lot of growth) but they finished. And yes, they may not become proficient over time but I also doubt they will be math majors. They can, however, get on the college track and have other opportunities. As a side argument, the Khan academy and WCPSS' Success Series may help them out along the way (I never knew they existed until a few weeks ago and that could have helped some of the students I know) so perhaps this will be a very helpful resource for future students. I'd still rather see the system give the opportunity with a "cushion" to catch those that don't succeed then never providing opportunities.
Question
Mon, 09/12/2011 - 13:24 — Dove314What are the longer term projected pass rates for subsequent HS math courses beyond Algebra 1 for those who make a D in Algebra 1? Is it safe to assume that those made a D level OR the lower pass score on EOC's will adequately pass subsequent subjects? I know EVAAS had some overall predicted longer term success rates but was data provided on the specific subgroup mentioned here -- those in the 70-79% predicted success level who struggled in Algebra 1?
Good question....
Mon, 09/12/2011 - 14:05 — Bob_SconceBut, you have to be careful about what you compare against -- let's say they got a D in Algebra I; what grade would they have gotten if they had taken the alternative class, and what would their outcome have been then?
Kevin Hill keeps telling us
Mon, 09/12/2011 - 11:30 — NoRalNerdKevin Hill keeps telling us that his mantra is "Expect the best!"
Evidently, this is only true if we're assured of success. If there's a risk of failure, let's not take that chance at all.
Perhaps the mantra should be "Expect the best, so long as it's guaranteed. Otherwise, you should plan to dig ditches. Better hit the gym!"
I heard a powerful speaker
Tue, 09/13/2011 - 00:59 — LongtimeLurkerI heard a powerful speaker on this topic a few years ago.
He said "these kids have the right to fail."
That right to fail when given equal opportunity outweighs all the protective compassion that supposed liberals are gushing about when they are finding convenient ways to deny the opportunity to pass through the gateway and even TRY.
Its all too convenient that supposed compassion withdraws the opportunity to succeed or fail on one's own efforts.