The Wake County school diversity fight will be the focus of today's State of Things show on WUNC.
Supporters of the old diversity policy will make up the majority of guests on today's show. Host Frank Stasio will talk with the Rev. Nancy Petty, senior pastor of Pullen Memorial Baptist Church; Gerald Grant, author of ""Hope and Despair in the American City: Why There Are No Bad Schools in Raleigh;" and Marie Garlock, a former Wake student who was among those arrested at the July 20 school board meeting.
On the other side, Terry Stoops, director of education studies for the conservative John Locke Foundation, will also be on the show.
The show airs live locally at noon on 91.5 FM and is streamed live online. You can call in at 877-962-9862.
Click here to listen live online
If you miss it, it will be rebroadcast at 9 p.m. Plus, they should be posting the podcast later today.
UPDATE
Stasio said none of the members of the school board majority accepted invitations to appear today. He also said they were unable to get on the show families who disagreed with the policy.
Click here to download the podcast.
Here are a few excerpts from today's show:
Gerald Grant and the Rev. Nancy Petty defended the academic and social benefits of diversity from interacting with different groups of people. Petty said that education goes far beyond the test scores.
"A child is not receiving the best education that they can receive if they're sitting in a classroom with other students who look exactly like they look, think exactly like they think, live in exactly the same neighborhood that they live in," Petty said. "That's not the best quality education we can provide for our children. As Dr. Grant has said, it's not just about what happens in the classroom in terms of student achievement. Yes, student achievement is vital, but what we're trying to do is to nurture and train and teach responsible citizens to live in this world."
Stoops found himself under the gun repeatedly by Stasio.
"Aren't we required to fix the social engineering horror of Jim Crow with a social engineering project?" Stasio asked Stoops.
"When it comes to education I think that the approach, rather than Raleigh choosing where these students go, a Central Office in Raleigh using algorithms, is to let the parents choose themselves the schools that best meet the needs of their individual children rather than taking huge swathes of students who fit a certain category and move them to a school with students who fit another category," Stoops responded.
Petty found herself facing tough questions from blog regular Joe Ciulla. He called in to question Petty about the old 54.2 percent graduation rate for low-income students.
"Was it okay to have failure of these students as long as they failed in a diverse environment?" said Ciulla, a leader of the Wake Schools Community Alliance.
Petty responded that ending the diversity policy will resegregate schools, which she said isn't the answer.
"Why take away diversity as one of the key components of fair equitable schools to address these other issues?" Petty said.
Earlier in the show, Garlock talked about having gone to Carnage Middle and Enloe High, where she was student body president. She said she had entered the magnet program after having not received enough offerings for academically gifted opportunities.
"I did have the opportunity to those more excellent classrooms and even more excellent teachers because those teachers were being given resources and these schools were mindfully made to give opportunities to every child who walks in the door," she said of the magnet program.
Comments
high school schedules
Mon, 08/16/2010 - 11:46 — turnerk1Most school systems in NC use the block schedule. In fact, Wake was one of the last school systems to implement it. The explanation at the time was just as some have said -- it allows struggling students to take the same class multiple times with the hope this will help them graduate.
The question I've never seen addressed, though, is whether the block schedule actually DOES help kids graduate. There is a lot of evidence that simply having a failing student take the same class over again does absolutely nothing to help them pass. In fact the frustration and alienation caused by repeatedly failing causes kids to drop out. Failing students need to have the material presented to them in a new way with a lot of support and it is the support that is lacking in schools. I really don't think any assignment policy or class schedule has much to do either way with graduation rates. I think the reason the graduation rate has declined recently is because the programs that helped struggling students succeed in school from Kindergarten on up have been gutted and lots more kids need the few resources we still have.
I have high hopes for the some of the ad hoc committees, but until I see money behind these ideas, I'm skeptical. For instance, I think the new suspension policy is a great step forward. But as the administrator warned at the time of the vote, money needs to be allocated to provide more alternative school options and programs for problem kids for there to be a real impact on kids who now won't be suspended all year, but still have issues that must be resolved. Are they going to find that money? And if they do find the money what will be cut to provide it?
Thanks
Mon, 08/16/2010 - 12:32 — Bob_Sconcefor that background...
I'm definitely not a block-schedule fan. First, it impacts AP courses too heavily -- fall courses have 5 months between the course and the test, and spring courses haven't covered 1/2 the material when the test happens. Second, it breaks continuity of courses that need it -- you cannot have an 8-month break between, say, two years of French or Pre-Calculus and Calculus without losing a lot of ground.
(magnetparent -- you've made the case that the modified calendar works better. From your description I agree, but that doesn't address the first issue.)
Well, on your first point,
Mon, 08/16/2010 - 12:57 — magnetParentWell, on your first point, consider this...
Enloe is on the traditional calendar. School does not start until Aug. 25. Sure they have year-long AP courses, but the exam is still May 7 and with the late start of the calendar the teaching time is still truncated (even more so because of the late start).
My argument has not really been that the modified calendar works better, but that the earlier first day of school works better. I do like the modified calendar for a number of reasons, but in the case of AP courses, it is only a benefit because the modified calendar starts on July 25. If the traditional calendar started in early August, block schedule or not, the same amount of teaching time is available for the AP courses.
So...
Mon, 08/16/2010 - 14:09 — Bob_SconceI agree that the calendaring law is an abomination. I was never a fan of the ever-earlier start to the school year, but school calendars are properly in the purview of school boards, regardless of the feelings of beach towns. (I also wasn't particularly fond of the WakeCares lawsuit. While I disagreed with the board's decision to create MYR schools, I also thought that it should have the ability to do so.)
I agree that the May 7 exam date still isn't ideal -- when I took AP classes, we still had a few weeks at the end of the year after the exam. But, that time was a much smaller portion of the class than when the entire class is in the 2nd semester.
There are 154 days in the
Mon, 08/16/2010 - 14:34 — magnetParentThere are 154 days in the Enloe calendar before the AP exams. There are 75 days in the SRHS second semester before the AP exams. Adjusting 2:1, there are a 150 equivalent teaching days in SRHS calendar. So, there is about 1 weeks difference.
If the traditional calenders on the block schedule had the last day of school on May 31 like it used to be (pre SOS) it would match up with the SRHS second semester numbers (which also ends by about May 31). So were talking about 1 week.
SOS
Mon, 08/16/2010 - 16:36 — Bob_SconceSave Our Summers? The folks who lobbied for the calendaring law?
I agree that the schedule would help with the second semester issue. Doesn't help with the first semester 4-month-wait-before-exam problem.
True. Which is probably
Mon, 08/16/2010 - 16:41 — magnetParentTrue. Which is probably why SRHS has most of its AP courses in the Spring or year long. A quick check and I see a couple in the fall - AP English for example. Some subject areas like that probably do not have an issue with "forgetting" what they learned.
Wake wins again 58 to 42
Sat, 08/14/2010 - 08:58 — user123454-Year Cohort Graduation Rate Report - 2006-07 Entering 9th Graders Graduating in 2009-10 or Earlier
All
Male
Female
AI
Asian
Black
Hisp
MR
White
ED
LEP
SwDis
Wake Better
Wake Worse
Wake
139599
78.4
73.8
83.1
>95
91.3
64.2
54.5
76.4
89.5
59.7
36.9
57.3
CMS
133584
69.9
64.4
75.6
63.8
76.4
61.5
54.6
72
84.9
59.8
43.9
43.2
10
2
Guilford
71294
80.7
76.6
85.1
65.2
81.4
75.5
68.5
76.3
88.1
77.5
61.3
67.8
4
8
Cumberland
52132
75.1
70.4
79.7
73.4
87.1
73.7
73
71.8
77.2
69.4
47.6
55
8
4
Forsyth
51838
73.6
69.3
78.1
57.1
90.5
68.6
55.5
70.9
81.4
62.7
38.8
55.2
4
8
Union
38549
84.2
79.6
88.8
90
>95
76.2
75.1
69.5
87.5
74.5
57.9
63.9
4
8
Durham
31028
69.8
62.8
76.9
50
91.1
63.1
58.3
68.4
87.4
63.3
51.2
50.7
10
2
State
74.2
69.6
78.9
67.9
85.2
66.9
61.4
71.2
79.6
66.3
48.3
57.5
9
3
49
35
58%
42%
You might want to check your
Sun, 08/15/2010 - 06:39 — jeffrey1You might want to check your conclusions again. I count 9 percentages that should have been in bold but are not. I also see mistakes in the Wake-Better / Wake-Worse columns for the CMS, Union, and State rows. That should result in a total of 45 (54%) for Wake-Better, and 39 (46%) for Wake-Worse.
I also think your methodology is in error. It appears that your intentions are to compare Wake to other large districts in the state. It is not correct to include the last row (State) in the final totals, since the test results of the districts you listed are also included in the test results of the State. Essentially, you are counting the results of the districts you listed twice, and all the other districts in the state just once. That will skew your results. You should eliminate the State row, which would then result in a total of 38 (52.8%) for Wake-Better, and 34 (47.2%) for Wake-Worse. So Wake does "win," but by a smaller percentage.
Incidentally, if your intention was to compare Wake to the state, it would have been acceptable to list the results of every district in the state and total them.
It would also have been acceptable to compare the results in Wake directly to the state totals, but you would have to come up with a method for excluding the Wake results from the State results.
My intent was to put an end
Sun, 08/15/2010 - 10:00 — user12345My intent was to put an end to the cherry picking of numbers cited in isolation ... there are posts how WCPSS sucks because black did better in one of the other 150 counties or Pacific Islanders did better in another county ... it is as if people are looking for ways to tear the system down by constantly looking for weakness across the state ... looking for some small towns somewhere in the US who have some better score on anything (ED, LEP, Pacific Islanders with disabilities with migrant parents in Mason, OH have a higher graduation rate than Wake's 10 kids) ....each time the person jumps from EOG to EOC to graduation rates looking for a weakness to crow about... so, I wanted to start from the top in enrollment for EOG/EOC/Graduation metric and work my way down until I got tired ... I could do the next ten on the list and get the same results ... I noticed you picked the area where Wake has the weakest showing and ignored the EOG / EOC tables. Doesn't it interest you that Wake students score better than other counties on the state administered tests yet graduate at a lower rate? Could that mean that other counties have lower graduation standards that get more kids a diploma? So, is graduation rate the right measurement? And why do opponents concentrate on Black when Hispanics and LEP have poor such showing? Graduation rate can be manipulated unlike the EOG/EOC scores to ensure success on a school and county level. Also, could the bigger opportunity in this area for jobs for unskilled workers be an incentive to quit early in Wake compared to places? Maybe this area's disporportional emphasis on college prep hurts kids whose future is in vocational training that is embraced by rural counties. So, I am not convinced that graduation rate is the end all to be all to measure success and may be the weakest one compared to EOC/EOG that are state administered.
Mischaracterizing
Sun, 08/15/2010 - 11:15 — Bob_SconceI'm the one who made the 'sucking' comment, and I made it in connection with WCPSS getting a 67% rating from the Great Schools website. I was annoyed about how everybody was using that score as some sort of evidence of Wake's quality. It is nothing of the sort -- a 67% in school is an F. The same Great School survey that gave Wake a 67% gave a lot of other districts scores in the 90s. (Note: it only scored a few dozen districts, so we have no real idea how many districts would have scored higher than WCPSS.) It had nothing to with graduation rates among African-Americans or ED students. THAT discussion compared ED graduation rates in Wake County with rates across the state and determined (1) Wake County is below average in its ED graduation rate, and (2) there are a number of NC districts that do significantly better than Wake County. (I recognize that those two statements effectively say the same thing.)
Nevertheless, you raise some interesting questions.
Bob, I don't fault you and
Sun, 08/15/2010 - 15:06 — user12345Bob, I don't fault you and really admire you and learn a lot from your posts but in general, since the election, the "WCPSS suck" attitude has been a political ploy to degrade the school system to facilitate / drive regime change in my mind. It is a common politicial ploy to tear down the existing system to provide a reason to vote someone new in .... sometime soon "they" will need to change course and try to show progress for the newbies ... otherwise, continuing the "suck" campaign will scar their candidates as they start to become the new "status quo" without academic improvement ... I agree that having WCPSS be 67%, "adequate", "sufficient" system is sad. I keep looking for places that have the roster of players (F&R, Black, LEP) we have and does better. As I pointed out many times having a team of all white, affluent students guarantees being a top school / system ... but that is not WCPSS roster ..... You think that public organizations like WCPSS can be more and I think success is just being better than average for a public institution ... only time will tell who is right ...
For example, when I look at the Leandro Ruling ... "sufficient" is the key word for a "sound public education" ... is sufficient 67%?
Well...
Sun, 08/15/2010 - 16:33 — Bob_SconceI don't think that Wake County has a Leandro problem -- the ruling requires every student to have access to a sound basic education, not that each child will take advantage of that. It's possible for the great schools number to be 67%, and for that still to be true. (Since the Great Schools methodology isn't exactly clear, there's no real way to correlate the two.)
After I made the original "sucking" comment, I retracted it -- I agree that it's not a particularly helpful way of thinking about the district's performance. I'm just very annoyed at the sense of complacency that necessarily goes along with all this undue public praise.
When my kids fail at something, I don't lie to them and tell them that they did great. Instead, we talk about what went right, what went wrong, and how we're going to work to improve for next time. Then, when they do actually start exceling, they know that they've truly earned the praise they get. Similarly, I feel like the education establishment has been slapping WCPSS on the back for what is, essentially, a mediocre performance. And that disgusts me.
After I made the original
Sun, 08/15/2010 - 21:43 — user12345After I made the original "sucking" comment, I retracted it -- I agree that it's not a particularly helpful way of thinking about the district's performance. I'm just very annoyed at the sense of complacency that necessarily goes along with all this undue public praise.
All this discussion reminds me of a remote field hospital on the front lines of a war. Some remote administrator in Washington is asking why they can save 67% of their patients while Wake Med. saves 98%. And the field doctors are thinking if we had the medicine and supplies Wake Med has and our patients were not so badly shot up, we could be 98% too.
Personally, I think there are enough “arm chair teachers”. My wife will often come home crying after listening to one of the local radio stations where conservative guests complain about the school system without knowing much about them. They spout some, “if I was a teacher, I would blah, blah, blah” usual revolving around some reward / punishment scheme that does not work on hard-core failure types, or using some resource that is not available to teachers here because of the conservative's tight fisted funding.
So, I think there are more than enough people telling teachers, schools, and administrators what a poor job they are doing. From my wife’s reaction, I do not think the comments are motivational. So, if the school system gets a “freebee” where someone thinks that are doing well, I say let is slide.
When my kids fail at something, I don't lie to them and tell them that they did great. Instead, we talk about what went right, what went wrong, and how we're going to work to improve for next time. Then, when they do actually start excelling, they know that they've truly earned the praise they get. Similarly, I feel like the education establishment has been slapping WCPSS on the back for what is, essentially, a mediocre performance. And that disgusts me.
I am guessing that a lot of people model their vision of school on a parent - child relation like you. Where you tell the teachers what a poor job they are doing and they want to "improve next time" so they can feel like they truly earned your praise. I think most schools are not like what you grew up with, most kids are not like yours and most teachers do not respond well to the that kind of motivation.
That's a problem....
Mon, 08/16/2010 - 06:12 — Bob_SconceWhen I criticize the Generals and their war strategy, I'm not trying to criticize the soldiers on the front line, who are typically doing the best they can with the situation. It has to be possible to go after one, but not the other.
Not sure what all the
Sun, 08/15/2010 - 10:23 — jeffrey1Not sure what all the rambling is about.
While I definitely have strong opinions, I was not arguing with any point you were trying to make. I was simply tring to point out that you clearly made mistakes in your analysis (counting errors and methodology errors).
Data is a great thing, but put it in the hands of people who don't know how to use it, and it becomes misinformation.
Understood and point(s)
Sun, 08/15/2010 - 11:01 — user12345Understood and point(s) taken. Fortunately, the conclusion that WCPSS wins on EOG / EOC / Graduation rates for most subgroups compare to the next largest school system in the state stands.
"Cutting classes means
Sat, 08/14/2010 - 08:49 — danofnc"Cutting classes means either students take fewer classes or there are more kids in each class."
Wrong. That's just wrong.
If a school doesn't offer AP Spanish, do those kids end up in the Spanish class they had to take before AP Spanish? No....they take something else that may not even be a foreign language. If a school doesn't offer AP Statistics, then a kid isn't going to sign up for Alegbra II again in the place of it.
Maybe they take a drama class, or some other class to explore an interest.
The AP in front of the class matters because when you put the AP in front of it you are focusing on a certain group of kids. That group of kids doesn't usually need any extra help to graduate. If you get rid of the AP class, then maybe poor Susie (after her dance class) has to go to college as a freshman instead of a sophomore.
If improved graduation rates are the goal, the way to do it is to focus on teaching the kids who are going to struggle to graduate. You don't do that by offering 26 AP classes that are taken by 558 unique kids (Wakefield High School, 2008-09). You do that by lowering the class sizes in the classes that those kids who may not graduate are sitting in so that they get more attention.
Clarification please
Sun, 08/15/2010 - 07:01 — jeffrey1You do that by lowering the class sizes in the classes that those kids who may not graduate are sitting in so that they get more attention.
The only way around adding additional teachers is to ask those kids who are no longer taking AP classes to take classes that already existed prior to cutting the AP classes, thereby increasing the class sizes in whatever subject they elect to take. And doesn't that get us right back to the point of a larger class size which, as you say, causes some kids to fail.
If you lower class sizes in basic math classes, something has to give, no? Either you hire additional teachers, or you increase the class size in other subject areas. Which alternative do you favor?
I have a hard time believing
Sun, 08/15/2010 - 08:00 — danofncI have a hard time believing that every single class in every single HS is packed to capacity.
But, since I don't know for sure that they are not, I will say that I don't care a bit if a few elective classes have bigger class sizes. The AP kids that you are so concerned about are the kids who should have no trouble getting through a class with less individual support.
In 09-10, almost 1000 ED kids failed to graduate. There is no way to know how many were in class and failed and how many dropped out to go work or whatever else. I don't think there's much that can be done about dropouts. There are as many reasons for dropping out as there are dropouts. But, if some are dropping out because they get lost in class and can't catch up, smaller class sizes could help.
Basically, I just get tired of the hypocrisy. Something bad happens (54.2% ED grad rate), and it's because of failed policies and poor leadership. Something good happens (improved test scores), and instead of giving credit to the policies and policy-makers, it's only because of the hard work of teachers and students.
If the policies and leadership had a hand in the failure, then they had a hand in the success. If the teachers' and students' work produced the success, then it (or the lack of it) produced the failure. I know for a fact that you have said that you would never credit PLT's for the improvement in test scores, after which I think you named several other possible reasons for the improvement. But, when you are given several possible reasons for 54.2%, do you accept them? Isn't it the same concept? Bad economic times and exploding populations of ESL and LEP kids contributed to the ED grad rate's fall, but I've never seen you admit it.
Why the attitude - I was
Sun, 08/15/2010 - 11:00 — jeffrey1Why the attitude - I was simply asking you for a clarification of your position. I was under the impression that you believed that all we had to do was eliminate a few AP classes, lower the class size for basic classes needed to graduate, and we could improve graduation, without any additional funding.
It seemed to me that there were only two ways to accomplish that. Either:
I think you answered option #2, because of your statement:
I will say that I don't care a bit if a few elective classes have bigger class sizes
I know for a fact that you have said that you would never credit PLT's for the improvement in test scores
Not True. I don't think you can locate anywhere that I made such a statement. My issue with PLTs has always been with scheduling them during regular school hours.
I will just say that I have
Sun, 08/15/2010 - 17:14 — danofncI will just say that I have a hard time asking anyone to make sacrifices for the "good of the community." I like the idea of smaller class sizes of some basic courses, but not at the expense of eliminating AP classes. I would prefer to fund additional teachers.
Argh
Sat, 08/14/2010 - 12:00 — Bob_SconceSo, your original proposition was that a school with few AP eligible students is able to focus more on teaching the basics -- you asserted that by not having AP classes, the average math class size would shrink and students would do better. [Incidentally, if true, that would be a great justification for high-poverty schools.] You have now changed that fact pattern to one where you do have AP eligible students, but you just don't teach any AP classes and push those AP students into other classes:
Maybe they take a drama class, or some other class to explore an interest.
OK, so now the math department has fewer students to teach. But, now the drama department has more! Where are you going to find the spare drama teacher to teach all these kids who would otherwise be taking AP stats or AP calculus or whatever? Or are you just going to say "great. We'll have a 100-student drama class"?
As to your Wakefield numbers, those 26 AP classes are only offered if there's enough interest, so it's an inflated number. But, let's pretend that all 26 classes are offered every year. If, on average, students took 2 AP classes, that's an average class size of 43 students. Sounds pretty good to me.
In 08-09, those 558 students
Sat, 08/14/2010 - 13:18 — danofncIn 08-09, those 558 students in those 26 classes were responsible for 1238 enrollments. That's an average of 2.2 AP classes per student. If the classes hadn't been offered, I'd imagine the table I am looking at would reflect that fact. Plus, "classes offered" doesn't mean it's only offered at one particular time. It's very possible that some of the more popular AP classes are offered at more than one time. I'm quite certain that there aren't 43 kids in any AP class.
My original proposition, as you call it, was stated to show how Guilford County could do better than Wake with its ED grad rate. Its resources aren't thinned by numerous AP offerings. I think I said something along the lines of "no district can be all things to all people". Wake has finite resources, so if you want to focus on the ED grad rate, something has to give. I proposed that "the something" could be AP classes. GCS' basic math classes are 3 or 4 students smaller than Wake's (except Geometry), and smaller class sizes make a difference.
The "take away a few AP's" suggestion was intended to show what people would be pushing if they really wanted to impact the ED grad rate. If you want us to perform like Guilford, then we need to focus like Guilford.
The "would be" AP kids would spread to a multitude of other classes, I doubt very seriously that they'd all take drama. Besides....I don't think it's a big deal if drama and band classes are larger if it means that we end up with smaller core classes.
Unless the available funds increase, then Wake will have to make some hard decisions if they want to really change the ED grad rate significantly.
Dan, you may not have HS age
Sat, 08/14/2010 - 13:46 — DrActualFactualDan, you may not have HS age students but they make you audition for band which is a year-long course. If you have Jr.s and Sr.s that are not able to take the AP courses that were planned out on the 4-year master plan that you map out in 8th grade for HS purposes they can't just "drop into" a band course because they will have missed the instruction of the 9th and 10th grade years. Our HS is at 2300 students and my kids have experienced class sizes of 40 students since 7th/8th grade and up. Gov. Purdue wants smart boards in classes so kids can learn computer skills yet at our HS there were 40 students and 30 computers so kids were "encouraged" to take a different course. This does not make them computer literate in a computerized world. (BTW I'm talking basic, beginning computer apps courses.) If you are going to suggest we rape the AP curriculum at least dump the kids into a class that might provide them a skill for college or life after HS. Many, MANY of the classrooms are full and with budget cuts will be more packed this year for MS/HS levels. Besides, at least adding computers could translate into media centers where AP kids could take online instruction with perhaps a certified teacher to answer questions and provide guidance as needed. (FYI--they usually try to dump kids into life skills course or sports medicine, etc.; also, kids have to provide their own instrument for band.)
band background info
Sat, 08/14/2010 - 20:00 — prescott2Just for background, most band classes in high school only audition for placement in the band- whether marching or symphonic or which section or chair. At least at Wakefield no one has every been turned away from band. And they are permitted to re-enter band as upperclassmen after having explored other options too. Many if not most students own their own instruments but the school does offer a limited number of school owned instruments that can be checked out. Percussion equipment is largely school owned, as are sousas and mellos for example. Band is a full year course load and Wakefield's Band students have consistently out-performed the averages in terms of producing academic excellence, numbers of AP's taken etc. Band students do average 8-12 AP classes including AP Music Theory. They just need to be very focused in their course selection. The overcrowding and budget cuts at Wakefield have made this very challenging in the past 2 years but it is still possible. What band kids give up are the opportunity to explore many of the other electives available. There are multiple sections of AP classes. ie. at least 3 AP English, US Hist and Calc. Some AP's do have student populations in the high 30's, but others like AP physics may have fewer than 20.
Possible but not probable
Sat, 08/14/2010 - 23:36 — Solon77It is not impossible but not probable that someone can take 8-12 AP classes. First of all Wakefield is on a block schedule which means only 4 classes per half year. AP classes are only offered in the fall as the AP test are in April and students would not have completed the course had it been offered in the spring. Freshman, unless highly advanced and taking AP Calculus, would not take an AP class. This leaves 3 halfs at 4 classes a half - so at most they can take 12 in the remaining 3 years - assuming they take AP Calculus as a sophomore and every single class would be an AP class. Are you sure you are not mixing Honors courses with AP courses ?
AP's + Band
Sun, 08/15/2010 - 21:39 — prescott2There are many AP's taught in the spring and on the block. AP Stats, Environ, English III, IV, Calc BC, Biology, to name just a few. Also many Wakefield students that I know have taken online AP classes such as AP Art, or AP foreign language, and even Calc III. My kid graduated with 10 AP's- scoring 4's and 5's , and did band all four years. They were all taken as regular classes, not online. She was not unique and I know students who started AP work sophomore year and graduated with 10-12 AP's as a result. Wakefield encourages this now. You are right that AP tests take place in the spring but course work is completed well before that. The bigger challenge is retaining the fall AP info for a test that occurs several months later. Besides taking online AP classes, it is also possible to sit for an AP exam never having taking the course and with only self-study. High School students today are amazing graduating with 5.6 and higher GPA's and still participating in extracurriculars.
So
Sun, 08/15/2010 - 21:50 — Solon77So are you saying the block schedule allows the taking of more AP classes - possibly 4 in the fall and 4 in the spring vs a traditional schedule that only has 7 class periods. I was under the impression from block schedule parents that their kids could only take AP classes in the fall.
"AP classes are only offered
Sun, 08/15/2010 - 14:13 — Apexter"AP classes are only offered in the fall as the AP test are in April and students would not have completed the course had it been offered in the spring."
That's not true of all schools. My son had AP Calculus BC and AP English last spring. I believe that AP Environmental science was also offered in the spring, and there could have been others as well. The tests were in the first-second week of May, and results were report in late July.
Due to the scheduling of tests --- which is done on a national level, and has no leeway whatsoever in scheduling ---- the block schedule is a huge disadvantage to the AP students. If they take an AP class in the fall, they have to take the exam more than 4 months after they covered the material; if they take it in the spring, they're taking the exam when they've only covered about 3/4 of the material. The AP students have already "taken one for the team" by being forced into block scheduling which is disadvantageous to them.
FYI - AP Exams are in the
Sun, 08/15/2010 - 07:54 — magnetParentFYI - AP Exams are in the beginning of May. Also, the modified calendar with the block schedule works very well with AP courses. SRHS has plenty of Spring semester AP courses offered. (I counted 13 this year)
Thanks for corection
Sun, 08/15/2010 - 14:05 — Solon77Thanks for the correction. With the exception of Enloe and Southeast - all other HS are on the block schedule and it is nearly impossible for a student on a traditional block schedule to take 12 AP classes.
solon
Sun, 08/15/2010 - 21:51 — prescott2Solon,
The block does not prohibit students from taking a large number of AP's. But is does make it a stressful, focused program. No time to explore many non AP electives to any extent. Students must be academically oriented. They need to enter HS with Algebra 1 under their belts and they need to be ready to explore online or self-study AP options. The real question 8th grade parents need to be able to answer is 1) does my kid really need that many AP's for the schools they are competing to attend and 2) is this level of work really what the kid wants. If so, then start by sophomore year and go for it!
Thanks...
Sun, 08/15/2010 - 22:10 — JSBinNC:) And - to have algebra 1 done prior to HS means you gotta be on some specific math track in 6th grade - right? Because that is the year after next for us so in order to really have the options in our court - this is why I am trying to work backwards from understanding the HS schedule and impacts / etc - either way, either calendar!
We need to be on the math track that allows Algebra in MS. My son tested AG in reading and math this past spring with those tests they gave him - so I am assuming that helps. (?)
End of fourth grade
Mon, 08/16/2010 - 08:01 — lferreriIf I am calculating correctly, your son is going into fourth grade this year. According to the Revised Math Placement Criteria, he can qualify (if he gets a teacher recommendation) in two years for 6th Grade Advanced Math based on getting a standard score of 354 or higher on the EOG at the end of 4th grade. (This is a fourth grade score because the 5th grade score isn't available when placements are made I have been told.) I don't know if parents get the standard score or just the level for the EOG. If I were in your position, I would make sure to get the EOG standard score and start keeping an eye on things. We were told by the principal (years ago so I don't know if this is still true) that some schools start informal tracking in fourth grade. As an AG student, your son probably has a better chance, but the wide variation in placement between middle schools indicates that you can't count on anything. If you have any placement problems, you might want to ask for your son's EVAAS prediction at the end of fifth grade. Right now, I understand, this is not given to parents.
WOW...
Mon, 08/16/2010 - 10:39 — JSBinNCTHANK YOU. You are correct - he starts 4th next week. This year, we did get the score sheet from our school for the 3rd grade EOG - it was a separate thing sent with the report card - I'll have to pull it out. This is awesome info to have.
Some MS
Sun, 08/15/2010 - 22:19 — Solon77Some MS are better than others for math placement and you would be surprised. EVAAS should be fully implemented by the time your son heads off to 6th grade. Just remember, as a parent you have a strong voice - do not be shy about using it if you do not believe the placement is right.
EVAAS should be fully
Sun, 08/15/2010 - 22:28 — jenmanEVAAS should be fully implemented by the time your son heads off to 6th grade.
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Well, it should be and several of us are pushing for it, but so far WCPSS has been very very slow to act. We're getting resistance from some key people and it's quite sad.
Thanks Jen and Solon - we
Mon, 08/16/2010 - 00:07 — JSBinNCThanks Jen and Solon - we will definitely be advocating for whatever makes sense for the kids when the time comes.
Dismayed as well
Sun, 08/15/2010 - 22:39 — Solon77I am dismayed as well. My experience has been teachers always pushing my kids and all of the kids in the class. So to see other teachers and whole schools not promoting students is very disturbing.
Thanks for the insight
Sun, 08/15/2010 - 21:56 — Solon77Thanks for the insight and good luck to your kid as they head off to college next week.
I don't think that the block
Sun, 08/15/2010 - 15:48 — magnetParentI don't think that the block schedule is the real issue. It's the calendar start/stop dates. Sadly, it would have worked fine if the SOS (Save Our Summers) campaign didn't disrupt things. I remember the impact on high schools regarding AP exams and college courses was discussed. But, we got a nice long summer :-/
No -- the issue IS the block schedule.
Mon, 08/16/2010 - 20:42 — Apexter"I don't think that the block schedule is the real issue. It's the calendar start/stop dates. Sadly, it would have worked fine if the SOS (Save Our Summers) campaign didn't disrupt things."
I disagree with your assessment. If your child is in Enloe, which has not been forced onto the block schedule, then the earlier calendar laws which would have had a school year ending at around Memorial Day instead of June 10 might give 5 - 10 extra instruction days before the AP exam in early May.
On the block schedule, if you're taking the course in the spring semester, I think those extra 5-10 days would be helpful. However, if you're taking your AP class in the fall semester, then you would end up having completed your class before Christmas, and then taking the AP exam 4.5 months later, as compared to the current situation when you've finished up the first semester and taken your final (class) exam in January. It's still a long 4 months to the AP exam, but at least your mind is still in academic mode all along, and didn't turn off the subject matter entirely over Christmas break.
Regardless of the calendar law, block scheduling forces the student into either taking the exam 4 months after completing the course, or taking it before completing much of the material. I think those handicaps trump the shift in 5 - 10 instructional days.
And...
Mon, 08/16/2010 - 21:28 — Bob_SconceUnfortunately, there's nothing the district can do about the calendaring law that requires them to end so late. there is something it can do about the block schedule, though.
No, it's the block schedule.
Sun, 08/15/2010 - 19:34 — loriacNo, it's the block schedule. Enloe manages just fine on the regular calendar. Sorry, the modified calendar only works for some. August is a big family vacation month- I was very glad to be able to do that vacation this year (after we missed it last year due to the modified YR schedule).
Sounds to me that your
Sun, 08/15/2010 - 19:44 — magnetParentSounds to me that your family vacation is more important to you than your childs academics. Your perogative. Any reason you could not schedule your vacation around the calendar? Even in the beginning of August? Your excuse is lame.
So...
Mon, 08/16/2010 - 21:41 — Bob_SconceThe rest of the world is organized around a traditional calendar, and you give up a lot if you're not on it. Sure, there's summer vacation. But, there's also summer abroad, summer camp, summer school, summer-at-sea, being a summer counselor, summer reunions and summer jobs. The drive-in is only open during the week in the summer, and the YMCA pool is only open in the summer. Moving into WCPSS in the summer is problematic -- if you move into the wrong area, you may fnd that your kid has already missed 5 weeks of school (which, after all, is why people wait until the summer to move.) The tax-free holiday a few weeks ago actually happened after the start of the year-round school year. Heck, last year, the GA didn't even have its budget set until after the year-round start. The year-round calendar is a misfit in the world.
I will agree that some people will find advantage in the modified calendar or year-round calendar. But, for the rest of us, please recognize that it isn't just about "Oh. What week should we take the kids to Disneyworld?'
[And, before anybody brings up the "our school schedule is a remnant from the time everybody worked on a farm" chestnut, it's false -- agriculture's busy times are generally spring and fall. NC schools used to have summer and winter sessions. The summer vacation evolved as a coordination mechanism to allow everybody to have approximately the same time off.]
When you say "world" you
Tue, 08/17/2010 - 08:39 — danofncWhen you say "world" you mean "United States", right?
Some of your summer things are fair points, and some of them are reaches. "The drive in?" Really? The pool is usually open until 7 or 8 at least. All HS are traditional except SER, so you have time to do most of the other things.
A quick google search of summer abroad programs seems to suggest that they last from 1 to 8 weeks. I have a hard time believing you couldn't find one that would fit a modified calendar. I'm sure there are some that are longer, but there is only SERHS where that would matter.
I've never dealt with the block schedule, but I think there are some pluses to it. For one, I think I'd like the idea of having homework in 4 subjects nightly better than 7 (especially if I was taking 3-5 AP classes). The extra class each year has benefits across the academic spectrum. The brighter kids get to take more classes (more AP's, etc.), while the less bright (or less motivated) get a chance to redo some classes if they fail.
For the AP kids, sure it can be tough to take the exam after a few month break from the class. But, don't they get a GPA boost from taking the AP class?
Ahh the Head/Millberg/Tart mentality
Mon, 08/16/2010 - 07:37 — g88ky07is still alive and well with some I see.
Whatever
Mon, 08/16/2010 - 08:29 — magnetParentNo idea what you are talking about. Feel free to elaborate.