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Staff looking at how to implement the new student assignment policy

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Next year's Wake County student reassignment plan is a work in progress with everything approved by the old school board under review with new suggestions coming in all the time.

During Tuesday's work session, Laura Evans, senior director of growth and planning, laid out to the board an explanation of the assignments being considered and the direction they're leaning toward. It will help to have your copy of the handout present.

The ensuing discussion showed how the thinking has changed to reflect the new student assignment policy. Multiple times, Evans talked about bringing students home, having them attend their neighborhood schools and moving the least number possible for stability.

The first thing you'll see on the handout is that actual enrollments are much lower for this year than projected back when the three-year plan was  developed in 2009 for Barwell Road, Hodge Road and Timber Drive elementary schools. Evans said the differences mean they may need to change how they populate the new Walnut Creek Elementary School in Southeast Raleigh.

Moving to the pages listing the changes suggested, the first 17 are all from the multi-year plan.

But you'll see that item 18 calls for looking at reducing applicants at Brooks Elementary School, a magnet School in North Raleigh.

Evans said that Brooks was added to the list at the request of Felecia Locklear, the school's principal, because an apartment complex in the school's base that had been abandoned a few years ago is now being rebuilt. Evans said Locklear is concerned that the new housing could crowd the school.

Evans said that items. 32-36 were suggestions they had heard from parents. She reiterated that all suggestions from parents, both in and out of the workshops, will be listed and reviewed.

Items 37-38 were suggested by Washington Elementary Principal Peggy Beasley-Rodgers because the school has lost of a lot of base students from the closure of the Walnut Terrace housing complex. Evans said that Beasley-Rodgers had requested that the base be expanded to get more kids who live by the school, located near downtown Raleigh, rather than to just accept more magnet applicants.

Item 39 is based on school board member Deborah Prickett raising concerns about Hilburn Elementary being underenrolled.

Item 40 is from parents whose kids would go to the new Walnut Creek Elementary.

Evans said one of their priorities is to make the least number of moves possible for stability.

Focusing on the Walnut Creek moves, Evans said they're definitely going to recommend some changes to what's now slated to go there. She started her review by looking at the schools slated to feed Walnut Creek.

Looking at Aversboro Elementary's base, she noted that two nodes are "a pretty good distance" from the school's Garner campus. Based on the new Policy 6200, she said "they want to do something" about sending those two nodes to a closer school, although it might not be Walnut Creek.

Looking at Barwell Road Elementary's base, she said they don't feel they need to reassign any students out of the school because enrollment is far below projections. Part of the reason is that 153 students in Barwell's base have transferred out because the school isn't meeting No Child Left Behind standards. Evans said those students would likely return if Barwell makes AYP because they'd lose transportation for their choice school.

If they're not going to reassign Barwell students, Evans said they'll have to look elsewhere to help populate Walnut Creek. For instance, she said they might reassign four Southeast Raleigh nodes out of the base for Farmington Woods Elementary in Cary, which is  overcrowded.

Hodge Road Elementary, which is also feeding to Walnut Creek, is still crowded and needs relief. Evans said they may now recommend reassigning some students to Knightdale Elementary.

Looking at Timber Drive Elementary's base, Evans said they might reassign some nodes that are bordering Walnut Creek's proposed base.

School board member John Tedesco asked Evans about making it possible for the nodes that live around Timber Drive to go to there. Tedesco can be heard whispering that Timber is crowded because of all the nodes who come from Southeast Raleigh. Evans said it would take several moves as part of the next multi-year plan to let those nodes go to Timber.

Evans said they're also hearing suggestions from some parents about having Walnut Creek open on a traditional calendar instead of a year-round calendar. If it opened on a traditional calendar, she said they could designate East Garner as the year-round application school for those people who don't want to leave. She didn't indicate whether she's recommend  a calender change.

Looking at items 10-11, Evans said that they're still going ahead with sending those nodes to Wilburn Elementary to "bring them home." She said that Wilburn Principal Jennifer Carnes said they can still handle the nodes even though they'll spend the first part of the 2011-12 school year at the modular campus on Spring Forest Road.

For item 12, Evans said the game plan has been to reassign four nodes from Davis Drive Middle to Salem Middle to provide a calendar match because they're also assigned to Laurel Park Elementary. She said they're hearing good feedback from parents about dropping the reassignment and instead making Salem the year-round calendar option.

For item 13, Evans said the plans calls for reassigning students to Knightdale High to open up more magnet seats at Millbrook High. She said they're revisiting it because one of the nodes actually goes to Durant Road  elementary or middle school. Evans said they had thought all the nodes came from River Bend Elementary.

For items 14-17, Evans said it had all been part of an effort to change traditional-calendar application nodes for several schools to free up more seats for magnet applicants at Smith Elementary. She said they're reexamining them and may not recommend the changes because Smith's base hasn't grown.

But with some of Smith's northern nodes touching Walnut Creek, Tedesco suggested that Evans consider moving them. School board chairman Ron Margiotta said that would be "logical."

Evans then moved to the discussion of potential changes to relieve schools that are expected to be at or above 112 percent of capacity next year.

For item 19, Evans noted that Cedar Fork Elementary is now capped. She also pointed out that 215 of the 865 students are traditional-calendar applicants, pushing out some of the base. She also said it would be "hard" to reassign students from the base because "it's their neighborhood school."

Evans said they'll discuss with the board which of the options to use: continue the cap, reassign students, change the number of application students or change the calendar. She said it's too late to add more modular units for next year.

For item 20, Evans said that "reassignment is the least desirable because it's not very stable." But she said it's something they might have to consider to relieve crowding at Dillard Drive Elementary. She said they may look at nodes along the boundaries of the school's base to see if there is space at neighboring schools.

For item 21, Evans said they can talk about reducing the number of magnet applicants at Douglas Elementary School in North Raleigh. She said the school had accepted a significant number of new applicants this year.

In the long term, Evans said they might want to reassign some of Douglas' nodes to a neighborhood school. She said that may be part of the next multi-year plan.

With time running out before Evans had to go to that evening's community workshop, she switched to taking requests from board members to discuss individual schools. Prickett asked about Leesville Road Middle School, which is item 30.

Evans said they've "already started to give some thought to this one" as she pointed to the Leesville satellite nodes in Southeast Raleigh that are near the proposed base for Walnut Creek. That's when the gasp came from the crowd and  an "oh my God" came from either the audience or the board table.

Evans said that "we want the middle school and the high school feeder pattern to be a neighborhood school" for Walnut Creek so "we can look right here as part of the solution to Leesville Middle crowding."

"I don't know that we can bring all of these children home or in the area, but we're certainly looking at it," Evans said.

Anne Sherron, a citizen member of the board's student assignment committee, shouted out from the audience "the middle and the elementary, " a reference to where they'd go if they were reassigned to Southeast Raleigh. She's raised concerns that this kind of move will take away magnet seats in Southeast Raleigh.

Evans said they're looking at which schools in the neighborhood have room.

Board member Carolyn Morrison asked if they could look at doing something for Carroll Middle School, which is projected to be at only 76.5 percent of capacity.

Margiotta asked Evans if there are any suggestions for reducing the population at Mills Park Elementary and if they're considering converting Highcroft Drive Elementary back to a traditional calendar.

Looking at the base area for Mills Park Elementary, Tedesco noted there are nodes inside the Raleigh Beltline near the RBC Center. Evans said they could look at them to give them a closer school, which Margiotta said would comply with the new assignment policy.

Board vice chairwoman Debra Goldman asked about item 34, Kitts Creek. Evans said parents want to go to a middle school closer to home. Evans said they have seats available at West Cary Middle.

Tedesco and Goldman also suggested having the Mills Park Middle nodes near the RBC Center go to East Cary Middle. Goldman said those kids would be "five minutes from East Cary." Evans said they'd look at it.

Tedesco then brought up Garner High to look at reducing crowding. He said he wants staff to make suggestions rather than him offer them. Evans said it was an "eye opener" all the things that Garner High Principal Drew Cook is doing to handle crowding.

Prickett closed things out by suggesting they look at helping York Elementary because it's underenrolled. She said people are talking about adding a classical magnet theme to York.

Evans said she got it and asked board members to e-mail her any additional suggestions. She'll be back before the full board next on Dec. 7 to present the revised 2011-12 student assignment plan.

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The four low performing schools

To be truly effective they all need to be traditional so that teacher can have proper training. The thought of wake county throwing money at schools and the teachers having to train and teach at the same time is obsurd! July 1 when the programs are slated to begin is when training should start and teachers not have to worry about juggling work and a vast amount of training. Walnut creek should stay y-r it's another large school that doesn't need to be underutilized.

It sounds like you have more

It sounds like you have more infomation about the program.  Can you share some of what you know?  Which 4 schools have been selected?

...

One year later and we're still talking about nodes. Thanks Goldman.

 

 

You need to thank JT/RM for

You need to thank JT/RM for trying to build the house without laying the foundation (consensus, definitions, policy, priority).   You can not blame them for neglecting project management 101 since they arrogantly thought they could ram their plans through using their majority and skip step 1 (the community input / requirements step).

I don't quite follow Anne

I don't quite follow Anne Sherron's concern about losing magnet seats. Is the number of seats going down at the schools she is concerned about? Or is it that base students will start getting magnet benefits (as opposed to applicant students)?

I think she's concerned that

I think she's concerned that there won't be as many magnet seats available for applicants. 

Correct, Jenman

I was there, I asked her.  She stated she was simply referencing parents' complaints about too few magnet seats for too many applicants already. She also joked she didn't mean to speak out and apologized to Evans for it.   I did not find her statement as shouting or disruptive, and she quickly realized what she had done, smiled, and gestured a "button her lip" motion to the board.

painter dude

So maybe you can ask her, if she manages to get elected to the board at a future date, can we count her flying loose and firing away at will with her enraged style of speaking out?

I tell you what, when she jumps up and yells "the rent's too dam_ high" THEN I'm on her side. Until then, she's not speaking for me.

FS -

I don't know her, I was simply in the room and inquired later.  She did not jump up and yell, she was not enraged, her dialogue with me during the break was intelligent, balanced and to the point, and I found her perspective enlightening. You slam her at any opportunity, or even none.  Just what is it you have against the woman? Do you know her?  She explained to me very concisely that the board must make a decision regarding magnet programs, seat quantities and locations before they move students into those schools.  Unintended consequences arise of they don't.  She did not present her thoughts as favoring magnets, or not, just the attention to the decision was an important first step. 

I assume, in most cases,

I assume, in most cases, base students would be mostly F&R. I wonder why increasing the number of F&R magnet students would trigger concern since this gives the disadvantaged a better shot at success.

Because there will be fewer

Because there will be fewer spots for the wealthier suburban applicants.  An argument that I've consistently heard from various magnet parents is that if we return more of the local kids to the magnets, that will decrease the magnet student percentage, which will in turn lower parent participation at the school.  The PTA is primarily magnet parents, & they provide support and programs to the school, including the low income base students.  Basically, the schools won't be as 'good' as they are today if there are fewer magnet families.

Not saying that is Sherron's argument.  Just one of the arguments that is often made.

do you think that is a valid

do you think that is a valid argument? what are the pros and cons of returning F&R kids to these magnet schools and returning applicants to the suburbs?

Do I think it's a valid

Do I think it's a valid argument?  It depends.  If WCPSS was to make Ligon school 80% base I could see that as a valid argument. 

I definitely think that some of the downtown/SE Raleigh magnets could have more local students returned to them.  I've always thought that magnets should not have lower than 40% F&R.  The old policy treated F&R students as a burden to be spread around and deemed that 40% F&R was the upper limit of a healthy school that would not only attract involved families but keep those same families from fleeing.  Frankly, if your school is getting extra programs that nobody else can have AND a dedicated force of magnet parents who are generally known to be very supportive and giving, then your school can handle at least 40% F&R.  It should be expected to.  [(Don't yell at me, TPG!  I'm making this argument using the philosophies behind the old diversity policy. ;-p ]

I started thinking of all the pros and cons, but it just got me thinking more about other issues.  I know I'm a broken record to anybody who has read my comments for the past couple of years, but this system is long overdue for a review of the magnet program as a whole.  Not just the individual schools, but the entire program.  Much has changed since the magnets were first introduced, and their function has changed over time.  Instead of just adjusting our magnet goals to fit what the magnets are actually doing, we need to decide up front what our goals are for the magnet program.  We have some that are keeping schools from being segregated, some that are all about 'bringing back the (middle to upper income) base', some are geared towards keeping property values and development stable, some are filling underutilized schools and many are fulfilling more than one of those roles.  Are all of these roles valid? 

We need to decide when a magnet program is warranted at a school and when we transition a school out of being a magnet.  We have limited resources, which are only going to get more limited.  Ideally the opportunities at magnets should be available to all students, but I know that we cannot afford to do that.   So how do we make sure that they are distributed as fairly as they can be? 

I'll stop rambling now.

You are right on Target

Jenman..The magnet program is getting lots of attention and $$$$ and the children who really benefit are really the ones that can well afford to send their kids to a private school ..I speak from experience as I have watched this system for 15 years and I have many many friends whose children attend magnet schools & they love it!  They are always telling me about the enriched benefits their kids get and I usually just look at them and wonder why they are not attending our neighborhood school?  I also wonder why they really do not say much about the ED, F&R, etc. children in their school..when I ask they say, oh yes they are there with my kids, they are together at lunch, some electives, pe and computers.  I then ask, but "what about french, contemporary arts, media/broadcast, advance math, advance LA, advance science", well, they just look at me with blank stares and stutter then start saying but we do help them.  I ask how, well we volunteer our time to help with reading.  I say, well that's great, but what about the consistency and development with these children and they tell they get special pullouts and other tutoring help..hmmm, okay I say to myself that is good for them, but that could be done at any school, just like in our days.  You seperated out by groups of learning, skills and abilities.

At one time, both my kids were accepted into Magnet (they are AG) and after being around some others who do attend, attending the hype of the program (they are very very good with their PR), but one re-occuring thought kept bugging me, those parents seemed pretty snobbish, exclusive and felt they deserved it, so I decided my kids would be better off close to home, because that is where they play, sometimes argue over rules of those games with their neighbor kids, are enriched and engage with our local community.  They know all types of cultures, old and young people, businesses, churches, and can relate to that on a daily basis.  As a world traveler I know they will actually do better in the long run with this type of schooling.

I have most definetly noticed a lack of community sense with my magnet friends children, because most of their day is spent away and they seem to be in a very tight small nit group. 

I too agree that these programs need to be looked at very closely and determine if we truly are helping the children that were meant to be helped, not just for show.  Remember, these magnet parents will fight to keep these great programs, they really are on the backs of the rest of us!

Take exception

As a magnet parent I agree with Jenman's view that the magnets needed to be revisited and on a regular basis.  However, I take exception to a number of your comments. 

I guess I could afford a private school if we gave up eating, cloths and transportation. Please do not assume that all suburban kid's parents can afford a private school.  Please also do not stereotype us to be snobbish, I find snobbish people all over - even in the neighborhood school. 

So why did we accept admission to a magnet school

1. Academic rigor. Example - at Ligon, nearly 80% of the 8th graders are Algebra I and higher.  My daughter is in this group and we wanted her around kids that valued achievement. Contrast this to many of the neighborhood schools - where academics is not a rigorous - which brings me to reason #2.

2. So what is the benefit to the base students ?  Creating an environment where achievement is an accepted norm. I think of the 8th grader who was failing math and this year through recommendation of his teacher was put into Algebra I (with the smart kids). The kid is flourishing.  When asked what has changed - he said he was afraid to ask questions last year for fear of his peer group.  It is widely documented that there are learning challenges in the AA community and academic achievement is viewed like when we made fun of the nerds back in the day.  Coming from a very poor background, I am thankful that athletics gave me the opportunity to see how other parts of society lived, jobs and opportunities. Opportunities that I would not have seen had I been isolated to my poor little section of town.  In addition to academics, my daughter is gifted in athletics. This year she played for her middle school team. Her school team consisted of some good players and many not so good players. We talked about what her role on the team would be for the season. She could have easily taken the route of being a ball hog and out there for herself. But this was not the path she chose. She worked with the under developed  players during the season and exhibited a tremendous amount of leadership. - She was able to share her skills and training with others to help them.   Could all of this be done had she been going to the neighborhood school - sure.  But then why do churches sponsor ministries to Mexico, Jamacia, Africa and other parts of the world when there is just as much a need just down the street.  

We actively support the magnet school we attend and for us it is our community. 

...

Thank you for that commentary. Without the magnet do-gooders, how in the world would we survive?

It's amazing that you can write that post and see absolutely nothing wrong with. You actually compared attending a magnet to ministry work in Africa. Geez.

 

 

Considering

Considering your priority is to get them out of your neighborhood school and back to where they belong - your comments are not surprising.  I will remember to tell my neighbor, whose kids went to a magnet and have aged out, that there is no point in continuing to volunteer and support the school.

 

"them?"

"them?" - who is them? That's exactly what I would be concerned that students would learn at the magnet programs - separate and unequal. I've heard some parents distraught over what their children have concluded based on the separate classes. Exactly that - an accepted and ingrained class system. The kids aren't stupid. BTW - Sideburn's school actually fought to keep a set of bussed in children. The kids had been there only a year and were just getting comfortable when they were slated to be bussed down the road to another suburban school - further away from home - not for their own benefit but because that second school needed their numbers. They lost that fight. The regurgitated propaganda doesn't help make you more convincing.

.

.

...

And again...

It is not just magnet parents that dedicate their time and efforts to volunteer at school. Us ordinary non-magnet parents do so as well. We just don't pat ourselves on the back so much.

Sideburns:  I guess you

Sideburns:  I guess you just proved Solon right - there are snobbish people everywhere, even in neighborhood schools.  There are many different forms of snobbery and your response is a fine example of one.  Just saying.

Solon: Thank you for your response.  I was biting my tongue to prevent saying what I wanted to say.

...

1. Attending a magnet is like doing ministry work in a foreign country.

2. Magnet children are needed to help the "under developed" who are base-assigned.

3. Magnet school kids value achievement more than neighborhood school kids.

If that doesn't read as snobbish....

Make

You consistently point to magnet parents as being snobs, elitist and there just for the taking and not giving back to the community.  While there are some that behave in this manner - the majority give to the school and all that attend.  

With regards to achievement -  why is it that the neighborhood schools lag in for example Algebra I placement. Why are middle schools in the Apex area near the bottom of the district in the number of students placed ?  Why is it that the Apex area high schools rank near the bottom in AP participation ?  The neighborhood school people complain about fairness and equity and yet the resources available are not used. These are facts.  

With regards to under-developed, you have completed twisted the use.  In no way did I say under developed who are base assigned.  It so happens my daughter has training in an area that many of her teammates do not have. I applaud her patience and leadership to take the effort to share her training with all of her teammates in an effort to make them better players. 

On the comment regarding ministry - local23, was making a point of supporting close to home as a reason to not participate in the magnet program.  That is his/her choice. And yet he/she was passing a judgement as it did not create the sense of community that he/she was looking for. I was simply, and apparently not very well,  pointing out that the comment is hypocritical since it is a favorite among many churches to have missions in places around the world, when we have high needs close to home. 

I have never questioned the dedication and support neighborhood school parents provide to their schools. I know first hand the tremendous effort that is provided financially and in volunteer hours.  Magnet parents provide the same dedication with a 40 minute drive each way.  We take pride in the school and all of the students. It is an incredible feeling to see a disadvantaged kid shine when given half a chance.  And yet it seems a day doesn't go by that the likes of you, red and woodstock  make disparaging comments directly at magnet parents.  As if magnets are solely responsible for all of the achievement and financial issues of the district.  Stop treating us like the enemy, there are many that make a significant contributions to the school and continue to do so even after their kids have moved on.  

I will never forget where I came from and if my family can help some kid(s) along the way, like I was helped, then it is all worth it.  If this makes me a snob - then I am guilty as charged.  

Something that I've been

Something that I've been thinking about. . . .  You have said before that you are not at Ligon for the electives.  You don't think they are all that different from the regular middle schools.  You're there for the academic rigor.  Yet I'm pretty sure that you've commented before that the regular middle school parents should be pushing for academic rigor at their own schools instead of having magnet envy. (I apologize if that wasn't you who expressed those sentiments.)  If you're not at Ligon for the electives, then why didn't you stay at your base school and demand academic rigor there? 
 
What I sense from a lot of magnet parents is the idea that "Thank God my kid got into a magnet and the rest of you who didn't get in need to fight for what you want (rigor, for lang, stability, etc) at your own schools.  Leave us out of it."  
 
I have never questioned the dedication and support neighborhood school parents provide to their schools. I know first hand the tremendous effort that is provided financially and in volunteer hours.  Magnet parents provide the same dedication with a 40 minute drive each way.  We take pride in the school and all of the students. It is an incredible feeling to see a disadvantaged kid shine when given half a chance.
 
While I do not doubt your dedication to your school, you choose to attend a school 40 minutes away because your children are getting more at that school.  Whether it is increased rigor or the special programs, you wouldn't be there without them.  You're not there out of the goodness of your heart.  I don't mean that to sound as harsh as it does and I mean it more as a general you.  It's all part of the marketing of the magnet programs.  It feels great to think that you're doing this wonderful, altruistic thing by sending your kids to a magnet.  But in all reality, your volunteer work down there isn't any more noble than anybody else's. There are disadvantaged kids and kids who need extra help at every school. 
 
 

Good questions

then why didn't you stay at your base school and demand academic rigor there?
 
Because the option to apply was available. That is not to say if my daughter did not get a spot at Ligon and she went to West Millbrook instead that we would not put all of our effort to West Millbrook.  As I may have mentioned before, we did not go to a magnet ES, we went to Leadmine - found the teachers and principal fabulous. We were very active a Leadmine.  My wife and I have made a decision to be involved in our child's education, no matter what the school.  Unfortunately there are those that believe this can only happen when there is proximity.
 
What I sense from a lot of magnet parents is the idea that "Thank God my kid got into a magnet and the rest of you who didn't get in need to fight for what you want (rigor, for lang, stability, etc) at your own schools.  Leave us out of it."  

As you know, there can be just as many issues at a magnet school as a neighborhood school.  Just because my kids go to magnet ms and hs does not mean we have hit the snooze button on education. Actually it is the opposite - on more than one ocassion my wife has suggested moving our kids back to the base school, the kids would look better gradewise and we would have less stress. Is it better to take an easier course and do well or a harder course and stretch yourself ? At this point in their lives, it does not hurt them to learn the value of hard work.

While I do not doubt your dedication to your school, you choose to attend a school 40 minutes away because your children are getting more at that school.  Whether it is increased rigor or the special programs, you wouldn't be there without them.  You're not there out of the goodness of your heart.  I don't mean that to sound as harsh as it does and I mean it more as a general you.  It's all part of the marketing of the magnet programs.  It feels great to think that you're doing this wonderful, altruistic thing by sending your kids to a magnet.  But in all reality, your volunteer work down there isn't any more noble than anybody else's. There are disadvantaged kids and kids who need extra help at every school
 
 
My point is we applied to a magnet because we could. We were accepted, the magnet is now our school. We will support the school and all of the students the best we can. (I keep saying all because it is all, as it seems such a difficult concept for many to grasp) I agree that the work magnet parents do to support the magnet school is no more noble than what the parents do to support the neighborhood school. My point  is that there seems to be a group that believes proximity to the school is an imperative to providing parental engagement and support for the school. Convenience does makes it easier, but it is not an imperative.
 
 

on more than one ocassion my

on more than one ocassion my wife has suggested moving our kids back to the base school, the kids would look better gradewise and we would have less stress. Is it better to take an easier course and do well or a harder course and stretch yourself ? At this point in their lives, it does not hurt them to learn the value of hard work.

Yet another snobbish comment. As a math tutor, who has tutored algebra, geometry, trig, calculus students at Enloe, Apex, Athens, Green Hope, Cary, etc., I can assure you that AP Calculus is no more difficult at Enloe than any other high school. The same can be said for AP Chemistry, AP Physics, etc.

And what makes you think that we suburban parents don't insist that our kids stretch themselves or learn the value of hard work?

We will support the school and all of the students the best we can. (I keep saying all because it is all, as it seems such a difficult concept for many to grasp)

No, the reason you keep saying all is because you believe that the rest of us only want to help some subset of the kids when we volunteer. Is it so hard to accept that when any parent volunteers in a school, be it a magnet or a suburban school, they are there to help all the kids in the school. And if that is the case, it's time to stop using the word all.

 

"As a math tutor, who has

"As a math tutor, who has tutored algebra, geometry, trig, calculus students at Enloe, Apex, Athens, Green Hope, Cary, etc., I can assure you that AP Calculus is no more difficult at Enloe than any other high school. The same can be said for AP Chemistry, AP Physics, etc."

There is an important difference between Calculus III offered at Enloe vs. that available at other high schools, however.

At Enloe, Calculus III is a WCPSS offered course.  At other schools, it is a distance learning course that comes with a pricetag of $708 plus the cost of the textbook, paid by the student's family.

Seriously?

At Enloe, Calculus III is a WCPSS offered course.  At other schools, it is a distance learning course that comes with a pricetag of $708
 
Seriously?   That's amazing - a full-time 12-credit hour schedule at Wake Tech is only about $900.  Who the heck is WCPSS letting offer the distance courses?

NC State University.

NC State University.

at what cost

My friend's daughter goes to Enloe.  However - my friend pulls no punches about it.  She's there for the superior offerings and education - and she makes no excuses about it.  

I like that - we can have a decent conversation because we are both being upfront with each other. (and no, we don't agree on a lot of things)

You go around and around and the closest you got is - 'we applied because we could'...   you forgot the 'AND because of all the offerings'.  Not diversity... Not to help base kids...  

Magnet parents know they are getting the lion's share of the resources, and it sure looks like you will do anything to protect that - at the expense of all the other kids in Wake County.  And we can't even have a decent conversation about it, because you won't admit what we all know.

side question

And why is WCPSS still marketing magnet programs given the demand for seats - here's hoping that's one of the first things to be cut.

Guilty as charged

If this makes me a snob - then I am guilty as charged.  

I have to agree with Sideburns here.

So we here in the burbs are incapable of giving back to the community? We don't volunteer for "all" the kids in our schools? We don't participate in food drives and clothing drives? We can't help the needy because we don't go to an inner city school? And you keep underlining all to try and differentiate yourself from us. Sure sounds snobbish to me.

And we don't value achievement here in the Apex area schools? We don't believe in academic rigor? We just want to go to a close school and limit the amount of homework our kids bring home? With all the problems associated with algebra placement over the years, you want to use that as your primary proof?

And you applaud your daughter's patience because she is athletically superior to her teammates? Are you equally as patient with those of us who you are "parentally" superior to? Sure sounds snobbish to me.

I coach middle school baseball. At my first parent meeting, and at my first practice, the first thing I say is that "We are a team. We are not a collection of individual players. No one on this team is superior to anyone else on this team. We will win as a team, and we will lose as a team." When I get a parent who thinks that there son is athletically superior to other kids on the team, I know that I've got a problem parent.

Look you're digging your own grave here. We're upset with magnet parents because they don't seem to understand that the benefits they receive are taken directly from us. Your academic rigor and course selection come directly at our expense. WCPSS has robbed Peter to pay Paul. I am Peter and you are Paul. And then you try to justifiy it by saying how much you give back to the community, as if we don't have a philanthropic bone in our body. Sure sounds snobbish to me.

Your academic rigor and

Your academic rigor and course selection come directly at our expense. WCPSS has robbed Peter to pay Paul. I am Peter and you are Paul.

Maybe the one elective they get is robbing but that they have to pay by driving across town to an under utilized building in a high crime area to relieve crowding in their suburban school seems like a fair trade.

Also, academic rigor does not need to cost anything.  Suburban parents just need to demand it but many here seem to want to eliminate the competition because they are so embarrassed by the poor showing of their own kids..  They should use magnets as examples of the level of teaching, amount of homework, difficulty of test, etc. they want in their suburban school.   What amazes me is that magnets show what suburban kids are capable of doing but suburban parents want to lower the bar instead of meeting the challenge.  One approach is to eliminate the competition so no comparison can be made on what is possible and how little is being asked of suburban kids.  Another approach is to increase the rigor in suburban schools using magnets as an example of what is possible simply by demanding more from kids.  I am thinking the suburban parents are lazy and value convenience and think of public school as day care and are afraid of rising to the challenge and afraid they spend a little less time at work or on vacation.

The Burbs

And you keep underlining all to try and differentiate yourself from us.
 
My experience in the burbs is many of us parents have to spend a lot more time and energy volunteering to help all the kids at our schools because we have a lot of kids whose parents can't get to the school very frequently because of distance. 
 

No way ... 90% of the kids

No way ... 90% of the kids live with in 6 miles of their school ... distance is not a major factor ... apathy is the issue .. suburban parents think of public school as day care to keep their kids out of trouble while they are at work.

Maybe Our School Is Unique...

We have MANY MANY kids from our schools that come much longer that 6 miles.  I guess you believe that, but I don't. 

User believes in the magic

User believes in the magic school bus.

....

"...suburban parents think of public school as day care to keep their kids out of trouble while they are at work."

Sadly, that is true. It was made very clear (at a GSIW forum, if I remember correctly) that (some) magnet parents like that their children ride the bus for long periods of time because it allows them to use it as daycare. That comment was made by a magnet school principal.

That is why non-magnet

That is why non-magnet parents need to transition from thinking of school as day care to demand more ... more homework, harder tests, etc.   Magnets show what kids are possible of attaining if asked ...non-magnet school are just too lazy and have gravitated to doing as little as possible because convenience is the primary driver not academic rigor ..

Simple solution

All magnet schools should be shut down. Every last one.

Then the snobs whose kids get in will be like the rest of us and we should be able to save all teaching jobs one more year!

I can see your answer to

I can see your answer to finding out kids have more potential is to try to hide the report.  I can not understand why there is so much concern about white affluent parents at base schools leaving the system to find a better education for their kids but so little concern about magnet parents doing the same.   Magnets allow us to fill under capacity schools using bribes instead of investing capital to build more schools.  Second, magnet kids show the potential non-magnet kids are capable when more is expected .   I guess it is human nature when confronted with a something better to try to destroy it or hide it than try to compete and exceed it.

...

So, if non-magnet schools have lazy parents who only want to use the school as daycare and don't demand academic rigor, why would you support busing low-income children long distances to attend those schools?

 

A Lot?

Curious what you consider a lot of kids.  Your wording is an elusive attempt to make it seem like it is a lot of parents that are affected by distance.  While your school might have a lot of kids whose parents can't get to the school, I imagine a very small percentage of them are due to distance.  Other than the magnet schools, most ES schools have well under 10% of their students coming from more than 10 miles.  A much smaller percentage (1-2%?) from more than 15 miles.

Now, lets look at the magnet schools.  If most of these schools were not magnets, the number of parent volunteers would be greatly reduced.  (Not blaming base parents, just pointing out that many have inflexible jobs and are unable to volunteer as easily).  Many of the magnet parents spend a lot of time and energy volunteering to help all the kids at the magnet schools.  (Notice I did not use the term "have to" because I don't see it as a burden.)

I don't dispute that parents volunteer at non-magnet schools in the burbs.  I just don't think some of the high-poverty schools would have that without their magnet program.  So you shouldn't discount the benefits of the magnet programs for the base population.

I'm Not Discounting Anything, Except...

that you imply you do things for all kids at Magnets.  Do you honestly think the parents like myself don't try to help all the kids in the burbs.  I have never seen a parent volunteer exclude anyone in regards to helping.   I don't understand why you continue to underline ALL.  I think all parents do what they can, some more some less!

Unfortunately

Unfortunately there is a generalization that all magnet parents do is suck resources out of the system for their selfish use, that magnets are really a school within a school and the base students do not realize any benefit from being in a magnet school.   The ALL is a reminder that like the neighborhood parents magnet parents support all of the students to be best of their ability. 

Facts

'With regards to achievement -  why is it that the neighborhood schools lag in for example Algebra I placement. Why are middle schools in the Apex area near the bottom of the district in the number of students placed ?  Why is it that the Apex area high schools rank near the bottom in AP participation ?  The neighborhood school people complain about fairness and equity and yet the resources available are not used. These are facts.'  

Well, we have learned all about how WCPSS was holding kids out of Algebra, for one. Hopefully that is on its way to being history. Is higher AP participation at magnet schools good if most kids do not even score a 3? Maybe fewer kids take the AP test at Apex, but get higher scores?

I think a clean slate is needed - just what are magnet schools doing for us?

Insight

I will offer some insight on the differences in thinking

Well, we have learned all about how WCPSS was holding kids out of Algebra, for one

 

Apex is predominately white and NED.  The whole thing about holding kids out of Algebra I is primarily directed towards minorities and ED.  So as an educated parent, do you not follow your child's progress and know what their placement should be ?  I can understand  the parent of an ED/Minority kid not knowing to challenge a placement. But it is no excuse for the others. 

 Is higher AP participation at magnet schools good if most kids do not even score a 3? Maybe fewer kids take the AP test at Apex, but get higher scores?

You see this is the main difference. The kids at Enloe push themselves. The basic unwritten rule is: if there is an honors course take honors over regular, if there is an AP offering take the AP offering - better to get a C in an AP class than an A in the basic class.  My daughter and her friends took AP statistics. She barely got a B and did not take the AP exam because she did not feel that she would do well enough to score a 3 and didn't want to waste the money.  However, she is glad she took the AP level class, it was more work and she learned alot more. As a result she is sailing through her college statistics class.  If she were at say Apex where a small number of kids take AP classes, she may not have had the courage to stretch herself.  The peer pressure of academic competition at Enloe is wide spread. This cannot be said of  other high schools. There are pockets, yes but it is not a culture. And this is what we are talking about - devleoping a culture of high academic expectations.

 

"The peer pressure of

"The peer pressure of academic competition at Enloe is wide spread. This cannot be said of  other high schools. There are pockets, yes but it is not a culture. And this is what we are talking about - devleoping a culture of high academic expectations."

Interesting.

This sounds reminiscent of the argument that was given when our neighborhood was reassigned from a school in our community to Dillard Drive Elementary about 10 years ago.   Our "type" was needed in that school because it was reaching the tipping point with too many F&R kids in it.  They needed families of "our type" to set the example of having high academic expectations for the other kids there.

The only difference is that our high achieving kids were specifically denied the opportunity to attend magnet schools themselves, as they had been selected to be the high achievement "seed" for a school outside our community.  They were denied the ability to stay in a school in our community, AND the ability to attend a magnet.

Who chooses who gets to be in a high achievement environment, and who is forced to stay behind and get to be the good example for others to follow?  (For that matter, did anyone ever even attempt to look at the data to see if this "seed" of achieving kids actually had a positive effect on the other kids, or a negative effect on those kids?)  Let's don't forget that geography has played a major part in the decision ---- it's a lot easier to make the choice to go to a magnet that's within 5 miles of your home than one thats 20 miles away.  And, as you tend to learn once you're already well into the system, if you don't make the decision --- and investment of you your family's time --- early on, you greatly decrease your child's chances of being selected for a magnet slot in higher grades.

Please don't forget that the vast majority of the schools in the county are strictly forbidden to group by ability levels, which puts a major damper on the ability to impose rigor and create a culture of high achievement.  In high schools, we are finally given the ability to ability group by selecting higher level courses, but this option is forbidden in the lower grades.  And despite the protests of others that the problem is with complacent parents who don't storm the doors of the schools and insist on it, a parent has little option when they insist on it only to be told that it is a system-imposed policy.

...

"I can understand the parent of an ED/Minority kid not knowing to challenge a placement. But it is no excuse for the others."

How so? Can you enlighten us more on this comment?

I'm frustrated and angered

I'm frustrated and angered by magnet parents who proclaim "We chose our magnet school for the academic rigor, not convenience", with the implication that parents who did not make the same "choice" obviously didn't value academic rigor and just wanted their kids in a close by school so they could be home in time to watch the soaps.

Don't forget that outside two AG magnet elementary schools, two AG magnet middle schools, and a magnet high school, the other schools were FORBIDDEN to group kids by academic ability, which severely hampers their ability to enforce academic rigor.  It has been a frustration throughout my children's school career.  I have expressed to teachers and school administration about how little substantitve homework was given --- and was told that they couldn't push too much on the homework, as not all kids could (or would) handle the place.  Additionally, it's pretty much a "Duh" conclusion that there will be a higher percentage of children taking high level courses at a school that is specifically targeted to attract high performing children.  Comparing a school chosen from applicants to a specific program to a traditional school is like playing a CASL Challenge team against a rec-league team. 

Then there's the implication that I'm not as good a parent as you, because I didn't move heaven and earth to get my child into a magnet.  The fact is, we're a dual income family, and the AG magnet schools are about 20 miles east of our home, and both my husband and I worked about 15 to 20 miles northwest of our home while my kids were in elementary and middle school.  Providing daily transportation to and from school would not have been possible without one or the other of us giving up our jobs. 

And I'm sorry, even if I did have children in a magnet school, I would not find it acceptable to have other schools in the county intentionally weakened in order to build up the magnet schools.  Our county school system exists to educate all the schools in the county, not to serve the magnet program.

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About the blogger

T. Keung Hui covers Wake schools.
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