Will a new school district analysis of how far students live from school quiet criticism over the busing program?
As noted in today's article, the new report found that 86 percent of students are assigned to schools within 5 miles of their home and it's up to 99 percent when you increase the distance to 10 miles from home.
Supporters of the district are hailing the report as proof that busing complaints are overstated.
"The vast majority of the county goes to schools near where they live, which is an admirable accomplishment for our school system," said Ann Denlinger, president of the Wake Education Partnership.
You can expect this report to be cited plenty of times between now and the school board elections in October. Some school board members, notably Horace Tart, have been citing preliminary figures from the report, particularly that 90 percent of elementary students are assigned to schools within five miles of home.
Critics are faulting the methodology of the report. They're taking aim at how Wake used straight-line distance for the calculations.
“It is deceitful of WCPSS to make these claims to the public,” said Allison Backhouse, a member of the steering committee of the Wake Schools Community Alliance. “Buses don't travel in straight-line distances and neither do the children who spend hours on them.”
Asst. Supt. Chuck Dulaney, a co-author of the study, said they used straight-line distance to get an "apples to apples comparison" across the district. This use of "as the crow flies" reckoning does present a shorter distance than if you used travel distance.
But Dulaney said the problem with using travel distance is that it's variable. It can change based on the route you're taking.
According to the report, based on 2006-07 data, the longest straight-line distance for a base school assignment is 14 miles. But 28 students travel farther for special-ed services.
One of the questions I'm hearing is why 2006-07 was used and not a later year. Dulaney said work had begun on the study a couple of years ago but hadn't been completed due to other projects.
Dulaney said they decided to finish the work that had already begun on the 2006-07 data. He said they next plan to check in 2009-10, which would continue a pattern of three-year intervals in the data that began with the 2003-04 school year.
Click here for the report summary. Click here for a site showing school-by-school data.
(The blog will be on a break next week.)
Comments
within 5 miles?
Wed, 06/24/2009 - 16:00 — ronniepunkinI measured Wake County on a map - it is only about 25 miles wide (W-E) at the widest point and approximately 25 miles long (N-S). If you use straight line distances from a school, it's no wonder 99% are within 10 miles. Wake county has a lot of schools, if you use a 10 mile radius, I'm surprised any child is outside it. But bus routes are much longer. That's what should be used - the bus route the child takes to school.
Kicker
Mon, 06/22/2009 - 14:42 — Bob_SconceSo, a big kicker for me here was that the report excluded the students who travel the longest -- those in magnet schools, as if the student assignment policy didn't affect these students. In fact, though, that policy determines the locations of the magnet schools. Heck, in recent years, the school board has shut down several magnet programs in more suburban areas (the program at Wake Forest Elementary is an example.) A different assignment policy would certainly reduce the distances that these students travel.
The earliest bus pickup in Wake County is 5:30 a.m., for a close to two-hour one-way bus trip. It's utterly shameful for the abuse of these students to be discounted in the district's attempt to persuade voters that all is well.
layovers
Sat, 06/27/2009 - 23:34 — klanders65I know of kids who have layovers. They catch a bus at some unheard of hour, like 6 a.m. or earlier, then are taken to a school they don't go to and dropped off. They wait there for half an hour and then are picked up by another bus to go to their school.
They use schools as hubs, like Atlanta. The kids sit and have layovers. The whole trip takes close to 2 hours. I'd have to look on a map to see how far they were from their school. They lived up in North Raleigh near 540 on Six Forks and were going to Enloe.
Kids from southeastern Wake
Sun, 06/28/2009 - 10:15 — SouthEastWakeMomKids from southeastern Wake who go to Centennial MS travel via SE Raleigh HS complete with layover. It's about a 90 minute bus trip each way not accounting for the travel time by car from home to the "express" bus stop. Needless to say, most parents drive and/or carpool their children directly to the school.
Please contact me--we want to help!
Thu, 07/23/2009 - 13:55 — fixwakeschoolsnowwsca09@gmail.com
Using the data from 06-07
Mon, 06/22/2009 - 12:48 — jenmanUsing the data from 06-07 doesn't account for the recent moves to reassign low income kids out of downtown to far away 'suburban' schools. Starting with the 07-08 school year, the Washington Terrace nodes were moved from Joyner (3 miles from home) to Leesville (12 miles). I think that this school year was the year that the low income kids at Underwood were moved to Green Hope (18 miles from home). There were many other moves like this, but those were two that I distinctly remember.
Also, Chuck D claimed that the current 3 year assignment plan was all about 'peer continuity'. That was just a smokescreen to justify the reassignment of low income nodes from downtown out to Green Hope High and some of the middle schools out that way. The argument was: Since the elem kids were already sent to GHE, it only makes sense for peer continuity that they go to middle and high school with all of their peers.
If it was all about peer continuity then they wouldn't have reassigned less than 20% of Wakefield MS students to Heritage HS while the remaining 80+% of their peers move on to Wakefield HS. There are many other instances like this where peer continuity was broken when it suited Chuck's purposes.
I am glad this is behind us
Mon, 06/22/2009 - 11:49 — user1234"As noted in today's article, the new report found that 86 percent of students are assigned to schools within 5 miles of their home and it's up to 99 percent when you increase the distance to 10 miles from home."
Yeah I know if they turned right and went through the back of the neighborhood it added 0.43 miles to their claim and they should account for the time to walk up four step on the bus which adds 20 more seconds.
This is a dead issue for most of the public who see most parent driving their kids to school anyway.
missing the point
Mon, 06/22/2009 - 11:54 — loriacOnce again you completely miss the point.
If Mr. Dulaney and team are using this report to show that parents should have not arguments about assignments, it should at least be realistic. He implies with this report that everything is hunky dory, everyone is going to a nearby school when we KNOW that is not the case.
This is 3 year old data based on 'as the crow flies' distances... looks good in a newspaper headline, but scratch the surface oh so little, and the REAL truth comes out.
Nice try, but you sound as misinformed as Mr. Dulaney, and it's insulting how you all try to portray this data.
"This study is interesting
Mon, 06/22/2009 - 12:08 — user1234"This study is interesting but meaningless - yes, we are within a 5 mile straigjhtline distance to our assigned elementary school. But the study doesn't show that there are 3 closer schools, one being 1 mile away with 400 empty seats. "
It sounds like you have your heart set on a particular school and that is your real issue. Sounds like they made a mistake building so many schools so close to each other and they should close the one with 400 open seats now to save money and distribute the kids to the other two schools.
stop
Mon, 06/22/2009 - 13:33 — loriacI think WCPSS should stop publishing misleading reports.
"But Dulaney said the
Mon, 06/22/2009 - 11:05 — shearertw"But Dulaney said the problem with using travel distance is that it's variable. It can change based on the route you're taking."
Aren't bus drivers assigned specific routes? Do they not log the number of miles they drive?
Operations Research
Sat, 06/27/2009 - 23:39 — klanders65There is a whole branch of mathematics for this kind of problem. You can bet that UPS uses it, and their airlines, and anyone else who has to deliver things from where they are to certain places. Of course routes are variable. You put that into the equation. Computer programs are set up to figure the best routes. You don't have to do it by hand. I doubt that Wake Co understands any of this. They probably lay out lists and try to hand schedule the bus routes.
Its easy to understand
Sat, 06/20/2009 - 08:44 — srhudson06Wake county will manipulate the numbers to say whatever they want. Using "crow flies" distances and years old data just shows how truly desperate they are to cover up the fact they are wasting MILLIONS on a busing policy that doesn't work. They know that way too many people won't look past the headline and will believe what they are told. These people have got to go.
Oh, I like how you think
Sat, 06/20/2009 - 22:51 — SDR256Oh, I like how you think shudson. Ya wanna join the group that is trying to change all this? Please log on to www.wakesca.org. Come to a coffee clutch near you and hear what other parents are saying. WSCA is looking for candidates who are willing to listen to new ideas. Our neighborhood chapters are a way to send your message to your candidate, whichever district you're in.
Why?
Sat, 06/20/2009 - 08:35 — Bob_Sconce"Dulaney said they decided to finish the work that had already begun on the 2006-07 data."
So, the district is in the middle of a budget crisis and the administration decides to spend its time finishing off this partial 2-year-old study they have floating around?
It sounds to me like the administration is trying to meddle in this year's school board race. I wonder why?
What business gets away with
Sat, 06/20/2009 - 22:55 — SDR256What business gets away with using 3 year old data as proof or motivation for any direction - old or new? PFFTTHT!
Bus Ride
Sat, 06/20/2009 - 08:05 — michigan2I can't believe they wasted money on a study. All you need to do to see the length of the bus rides is to get a bus schedule made by the transportation dept. We got ours at Laurel Park elementary on Thursday. We live 2.2 miles from the school. School starts at 9:05 but my childrens bus stop time is listed at 7:55 am. I asked the tranportation representative will my child be on the bus for an hour. She said maybe. The school building doesn't even open until 8:45. Not to worry they will just sit in the hot bus outside the building until it opens if they arrive early. She also assured me that come August when traditional school starts there is no way the bus will be at school to pick my children up at 3:45 when their day ends. While I appreciate bus service, I find these ride times unacceptable. We made the choice to switch to Laurel Park because our base school is turning traditional. We will have middle school and elementary children at the same time and our neighborhood middle school is year round. We didn't want to juggle two different schedules. Had I known how absurd the bus times would be we would have made a different choice. You are going to have five year olds gone from 7:55 to 4:30 spending almost two hours on a bus. You don't need a study to tell you that this is happening it is printed out neatly for you by the Apex Department of transportation. I would like to know who makes up these bus times and what logic is involved. Our bus route is only for our neighborhood. How can it possibly take them an hour?
Burns provides an update on
Fri, 06/19/2009 - 18:02 — AngelaWBurns provides an update on local funding following the adoption of the county budget, and discusses some of the potential changes in the classroom after the state government completes its work, in this week's Journal. Watch Journal...
http://www.wcpss.net/announcements/archives/2009/06/june_19_superin.html
School-by-school data
Fri, 06/19/2009 - 17:13 — FalcThank you for posting the link Mr. Hui. The data is quite interesting.
From what I can see there is a vast difference school-by-school. There are ITB schools like Lacy where 99% of the students (by assignment) were within 5 miles, of which 94% were within 2 miles. Then there are the "bussable" rim schools where less than 70% of students were within 5 miles. In the case of our school, only 61% were within 5 miles and 25% of the students were more than 10 miles STRAIGHTLINE distance.
The percentages of students (by assignment) within 5-mile assignment for the schools in my area were: 61%, 67%, 67%, 70%, 47%*, 39%* and 86% (*denotes VYR school).
does our long "bus trip" count?
Fri, 06/19/2009 - 16:58 — mike_carySpin, manipulation, and squandering our time, safety, and taxpayer money. The report "does not include families that 'chose' to send their children to a school farther away from home"..... I wonder how many "data points" were thrown out because of that? In our case, we 'chose' a nearby YearRound school, but a few years later was reassigned much further from home (more than 5miles). We accepted the longdistance unwanted reassignment to stay in YR but that doesn't mean that we CHOSE to be bused further! I bet they chose to throw out 1000's of data points like ours! It adds up to 100,000's of wasted hours, millions of sqaundered dollars, and probably a few fatalities along the way.... Way to go WCPSS and Dulaney! Spin us til we're dizzy
I think you don't count
Fri, 06/19/2009 - 17:23 — FalcSee the links at the end of the post to the summaries and school by school data. From what I can tell, unless the student is attending base assignment or assigned special program, they were not counted. It looks like over 26,000 students were not considered.
The school by school data and maps are pretty telling.
Easy Solution...
Fri, 06/19/2009 - 16:57 — CitizenmomEasy solution, only budget for transportation costs (fuel, drivers, maintenance, drivers and vehicle replacement) based on the figures claimed by the WCPSS as the valid indicators of distances traveled by students and time spent in transportation. What a bargain!
Parents understand the realities
Fri, 06/19/2009 - 13:47 — designmanWake County claims about busing are getting ridiculous. Do they really believe that publishing data that is clearly contrary to the experiences many of us face will alleviate our concerns? My son, for instance, has gone 20+ miles to school the last two years and, according the projected assignments and reassignments, the distance for next year will be 8 miles and for the following three years, 16 miles.
According to the data presented, my son is in the 1% of students who travel over 10 miles to school...and we do it year after year. Why are we forced to do this and what value does it offer anyone?
Here is a thought: Mt. Everest is about 29,000 ft. tall; according Wake County schools -- whose only consideration for distance is "as a crow flies" -- kids living at the base of Mt. Everest should have no problem making it to a school at the peak only a short 5.5 miles away (admittedly, in this case, my anecdote would require one very special crow).
Why are we forced to do
Sat, 06/20/2009 - 09:01 — gwaihirWhy are we forced to do this
=======
Because enough parents support the status quo, by voting in the same old, same old.
Politicians will only learn their lessons when they see incumbents around them losing their seats due to having a tin ear - and become afraid that they will be next to get voted out.
Honestly, I think if most (or even many) parents didn't support this, there'd be mass civil demonstrations outside the school board HQ buildings. We're always seeing marches in DC for things like Gay Pride etc, when people think it's important enough.
In October...
Mon, 06/22/2009 - 13:31 — designmanThe "mass civil demonstration" you speak of will occur in October when 4 seats on the school boards are up for grabs. I predict record voter turn out for a BOE election and a new family-friendly dynamic on the school board.
I hope you are right,
Mon, 06/22/2009 - 17:05 — gwaihirI hope you are right, designman. I am not confident at all, but I hope you are right.
I lost what little faith I used to have when Cary voted Eleanor Goettee in. Subsequent events have not restored it.
Not
Mon, 06/22/2009 - 14:48 — user1234Wake county is a big place ... I just don't see school board elections being a top priority to people around me ... job / taxes yes ... YR schools, school calendar, 2 mile vs. 5 mile bus ride just don't bring out the crowds ...
What's your agenda?
Thu, 06/25/2009 - 13:06 — designmanA "2 mile vs. 5 mile bus ride" hardly characterizes the busing challenges many face as has been detailed regularly on this forum. That you seem to dismiss the realities suggests you have an agenda rather than a quest to understand what people are dealing with. For someone who posts so frequently and so ardently, you seem to have very limited insight to what families face in "Wake County."
Fortunately, voter turnout will not be driven by the busing issue alone, the BOE has seen fit to add any number of motivating issues to the mix, including reassignments, lack of success in dealing with the challenges of low-income students, increasing drop-out rates, and graduation rates for economically disadvantaged students that are significantly below the state average. So, the very students that the busing and reassignment policies are intended to help are actually hindering their success according to recent data.
Let's start the quest
Sun, 06/28/2009 - 09:26 — user1234A "2 mile vs. 5 mile bus ride" hardly characterizes the busing challenges many face as has been detailed regularly on this forum. That you seem to dismiss the realities suggests you have an agenda rather than a quest to understand what people are dealing with. For someone who posts so frequently and so ardently, you seem to have very limited insight to what families face in "Wake County
You may be right … in 27 years here, we have never lived more than 5 miles from our assigned school … and yes we drove past one school to get to another but I never thought anything was wrong with that because the schools were suppose to be equivalent and the seats were open in the further away school. I have never had a neighbor or coworker complain about long bus trips. Note, in today’s “fast” society 45 mile bus ride probably seems like an eternity to some. Growing up, riding the bus took a while so maybe I have a different perspective. I do know people who choose to attend to special schools like Enloe (20 miles?) and they don’t complain about the distance because they chose the inconveience. Finally, I know there is at least one neighborhood in downtown that go to Green Hope somewhere out there (poster child example) who is greater than 6 miles away involving 10 kids. I am going to leave that to those parents to complain and change that situation. I am willing to support their effort but I would like that concern to be raised and championed by them and not the say Green Hope parents.
So, long distance busing has never affected me, my neighbors, or my coworkers in 27 years so I have a hard time seeing it as a major problem. Now maybe the perception of a long ride (>60 min one way) is much lower now (15 min is the expectation?)? Maybe it all occurs in one section of the county that affects you mainly so I don't see it. Let’s hear your personal story (your kids not some you saw in the parking lot or heard about at the PTA) so I can have an example of what you personally (your kids) are dealing with. Than we can figure out if it a perception (me 60 min limit, you 15 min) or a real problem (you: computer assigned your kids to a school 20 miles away and it takes 2 hours one way which is outrageous and I would go to the board and fight with you). Like Falc says (above?) my opinion is the same as many other, many without kids, who don't see, understand, experience, long bus rides as a major problem. Problem yes, major no. Change my mind. Make me an advocate / convert with the personal story of your kids. Note, I have come around on YR after hearing the heartache. Again, I have never been affected by YR but it sure seems to cause a lot of pain (financiial??) so I have empathy now for those folks from their personal stories.
Don't want to put words in Users mouth but
Thu, 06/25/2009 - 17:45 — FalcI intrepreted it as "here are the challenges BOE candidates and their supporters face in "getting out the vote" beyond the families that have been directly impacted by these issues."
What the not-fully-informed, not-directly-impacted general public sees is what is in the headlines (i.e. 86% of students live within 5 miles) so they may well think the difference is 2 to 5 miles. Many will not bother to even read the whole article or think through the 'as the crows flies' spin.
I know you are aware of those challenges.
Percentages hide the impact
Sat, 06/27/2009 - 02:30 — SDR256If you do the math it means that 26,000 children will be bused more than 5 miles.
I know I'm preaching to the choir, but just thought I'd add to the chorus.
Keep singing LOUD and CLEAR
Sun, 06/28/2009 - 22:58 — FalcThe raw numbers do give it a different feel.
"If you do the math it means that 26,000 children will be bused more than 5 miles."
and more than 4,000 bussed more than 10 miles.
That includes over 125 by assignment out of about 500 at our ES (25%). We don't have crowds at school functions. We hear about the ED parents that want to be involved at their kids' school, but can't due to the distance and lack of transportation. Some of us can see the impacts beyond whether our own kids ride the bus 2 miles or 5 miles. Too me, one parent (especially ED) that wants to participate and can't due to distance is one too many. I know I'm preaching to the choir.
I think the problems is that
Mon, 06/22/2009 - 11:58 — user1234I think the problems is that say only 1/3 of the voters have kids and of those only 14% are more than five miles from their school and many of them are ITB which really limits the potential for a mass rally. And the ones OTB either drive their kids to school or send them to a magnet program so the affected group is small (but vocal). The few who use the bus are probably just thankful for free public transportion and figure their kids can do their homework during the ride like we all did.
Do homework on the bus?
Mon, 06/22/2009 - 12:43 — shearertwDo homework on the bus? Are you kidding?
Clearly you never rode a bus to school....at least not any where near where I grew up.
There was no doing homework....at lot of lessons learned but not from homework.
Back on planet earth...
Mon, 06/22/2009 - 13:30 — Dadof3Homework on the bus? Good luck with that.
If my children (perish the thought) had to ride more than 20 minutes, and said; "Don't worry, Dad, I'll do my homework on the bus." I'd have a private chuckle, and proceed to give the nearly punitive 20 minute lecture on the value of being in the right frame of mind while doing homework (you know; no music or tv, references handy, etc)
I would NOT I say; "Great idea! Why don't you throw a few flowers out the window to beautify the neighborhoods you pass through while you're at it."
HOw come the FEDs can't come
Fri, 06/19/2009 - 11:25 — dryeraseuserHOw come the FEDs can't come down and investigate this governmental issue???????
Will a new school district
Fri, 06/19/2009 - 10:27 — g88ky07Will a new school district analysis of how far students live from school quiet criticism over the busing program?
NOPE!
From the article...
Fri, 06/19/2009 - 10:09 — Sideburnshttp://www.wcpss.net/transportation/Wheels%20of%20Ed.pdf
This seems to say otherwise. (page 2)
Mileages
Fri, 06/19/2009 - 09:55 — RMC10Yes, three years ago was about what 15,000 reassignments ago. Three years ago they had not built schools in rather outlying areas, nor were they trying to fill said schools with far away children. Must be further distances now. What about those kids that were reported on this site as having a 45 minute bus ride to Lufkin. What a joke? Wish the media would start lising the date of the data. The one the state used to tout Raleigh as top city was from Places rated data 2005, back when Raleigh was in it's top tech job status.
...
Fri, 06/19/2009 - 09:50 — SideburnsDistance is but one piece of the assignment puzzle. WCPSS should include all the factors involved in assignment. The grand claims in this distance report become irrelevant if the assignments lack stability or if they are to an unwanted calendar.
Correct. Also, why are they
Fri, 06/19/2009 - 09:56 — NWRaleighMomCorrect. Also, why are they excluding magnet students from the study? Some travel long distances simply to escape YR calendar or underperforming base school.
great method
Fri, 06/19/2009 - 09:37 — NOFANOFWAKEMADNESSToo bad Wake BOE can't get to the TRUTH via the "straight line". Instead of the winding, out of the way, pass all the ACTUAL facts as you go "bus ride" that they like to take. Just like always, it's the only way you can go to make it look like something it's not.
No
Fri, 06/19/2009 - 09:23 — Dadof3Of course it won't. More smoke, mirrors and back-patting at Quail, Ridge books; less education for the students.
No studies needed: allow for parental choice for school assignment and calendar schedule. Actively encourage meaningful parental participation in the system's decisions, and not just for field day at the school.
Parents know what's best for their families, not Burns, Delaney, or Denlinger nor any of their groveling, calumnious sycophants.
The Data Is Three Years Old
Fri, 06/19/2009 - 08:29 — JanisTangoWhy is this report using data that is three years old? Does anyone find that interesting? I do. They have all the data with the latest reassignments...can't they use that data? Are they trying to hide something? I sure don't trust them.
They just reassigned 26K kids and they didn't look at the impact of those changes to the miles traveled before making those massive changes?
According to their own data for Leesville High they have 23 buses that come to that school. Out of those 6 of the buses travel over 12-14 miles. So by my own 'arbitrary' calculation that means 26% of the students travel over 12-14 miles (keep in mind these are straight line distances so it's probably more like 18-20). So does that mean 26% of the kids in WCPSS travel those types of distances? I know a lot of kids don't ride the buses to school so that number might be lower, but that mileage is unreasonable for any child.
they love to waste $$$.
Fri, 06/19/2009 - 08:25 — ncstahls413they love to waste $$$. Using old data means if the study doesn't give them the results they want - they blame the age of the data. They are too slick.
Straight line distances don't tell the whole story
Fri, 06/19/2009 - 07:52 — loriacStraight line distances don't mean anything if you are bussed past neighborhood schools to get to your assigned school. I'm sure the report will say that our neighborhood is <5 miles from our assigned elementary school, but there are 3 closer elementary schools, one only a mile from our neighborhood. (We aren't 'allowed' to go there, but the report won't show that!)
I can't wait to see how the status quo supporters use this data. No one will be fooled.