Is an Enloe High School student facing repercussions for having questioned the lack of diversity within the classes on campus?
As noted in today's article, Wake County school officials say they're investigating allegations that Enloe social studies teacher Joseph Hoffman told his classes on Thursday that he was considering rescinding the college recommendation letters for senior Jay Zhang.
The reason Hoffman was allegedly upset was over this letter to the editor in Thursday's N&O in which Zhang talked about "the glaring academic and cultural divide between the magnet and non-magnet students."
Michael Evans, Wake's chief communications officer, said Superintendent Tony Tata became immediately concerned when he first learned about the allegations on Friday. Evans said an investigation has been launched.
"The superintendent feels very strongly about being able to exercise the right to free speech," Evans said.
Hoffman, who declined comment Monday, is still teaching. Sometimes teachers are suspended with pay during investigations.
Several students described what happened during Hoffman's various classes on Thursday. But most declined to be identified, fearing retribution.
One student who stepped forward is Maggie Lee, a junior in Hoffman's AP U.S. History class. She said that Hoffman was visibly upset when the class opened and asked students if they had read Zhang's letter to the editor.
In the process of pulling out a printout of the letter, Lee said Hoffman talked about how he had written letters for Zhang, whom he didn't mention by name. He took out a sheet and rattled off the colleges he had written letters of recommendation to, saying he was considering rescinding them because Zhang wasn't the student he thought he was.
After reading the letter, Lee said Hoffman asked the class if they felt Zhang's statements were true. Lee said that Hoffman later singled out the three black students in the class to ask them to speak out about their thoughts on the letter.
Lee and Zhang said that friends in Hoffman's other classes also told them that he made similar remarks about the letter and the possibility of rescinding the college recommendation letters.
Lee and her mother, Wake CARES co-founder Patrice Lee, said Hoffman isn't the only magnet teacher who has shared their opinions about the diversity policy in class. But Maggie Lee said Hoffman has been one of the most blatant.
Maggie Lee said that during the time between periods, Hoffman showed students "The Colbert Report" segment that skewered Wake over eliminating the diversity policy. Once class began, she said that Hoffman took up part of the time taking questions from students about the piece.
Maggie Lee said that Hoffman also told the class that he was working in his free time to find out which people were supporting members of the school board majority. She said he told the class he might release the results of his investigation in case people wanted to boycott those businesses. Lee said he added that students should act on what they find in their own free time.
“It’s not okay for him to tell us what’s right and what’s wrong,” said Lee, a junior. “When it’s a controversial topic, give us the facts and let us decide.”
Patrice Lee said that Hoffman is a good teacher who should stay at Enloe. But she said that he should have to apologize for what happened Thursday.
As for Zhang, he said he faced an immediate backlash on Thursday from students and teachers. Later that day, he sent an apology letter that he posted on his Facebook page and that he e-mailed to teachers. You can find the apology letter as a comment he posted to the online version of his original letter to the editor.
Zhang admits he's worried that Hoffman might rescind his recommendation letters. But Zhang is also quick to say how much he admires Hoffman as a teacher and that he can understand why his letter to the editor offended him.
Since Zhang's original letter ran, the Enloe community has fired back to defend the school. This letter to the editor from Enloe student Dhruv Jain ran on Saturday along with this letter to the editor from Enloe teacher Christopher Lyerly.
Comments
vouchers are a non-starter
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 13:09 — SElviraLPaul Stam's idea is a non-starter. We need high quality schools available to the entire public. This is our challenge. We need to meet it, or face some dire consequences.
The politics of fear and
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 21:01 — woodstockThe politics of fear and division... I am not buying it.
Vouchers open up educational options for everyone.
Retaliation
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 12:31 — hannibalFirst, I think that the "retaliation" that everyone is mentioning is not going to come from any teacher. I think Mr. Zhang is probably more concerned about student retaliation.
Second, diversity at a school like Enloe is what you make of it. You can choose to hang out completely with like-minded individuals, or not. You can choose not to notice those of different races and cultures, or not.
Third, I think it is possible that EVERYONE at Enloe is on edge. Margiotta has stated publicly that he "wants to bring down WCPSS." What better way to do that than to kill the flagship school. I have friends that have overheard Tedesco personally guaranteeing that he will "bring Enloe down." The enemies of Enloe cite ABC results, but not SAT scores (with a 87% rate of students taking the SAT), and not AP test scores (which are high even for the minority and low SES students). The AP data isn't published anywhere.
Fourth, any student for any school in the county can make any allegation, true or not, and the school and teacher cannot respond because of confidentiality. Thus, there is usually only one side reported.
I have friends that have
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 17:39 — jenmanI have friends that have overheard Tedesco personally guaranteeing that he will "bring Enloe down."
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I don't believe this for a minute.
Hannibal
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 13:26 — nancyncCan you please provide a link or source for this statement:
Margiotta has stated publicly that he "wants to bring down WCPSS."
I have a job
Thu, 02/10/2011 - 08:01 — hannibalI have a job. I can at most view this blog once or twice per day, and after seeing the same comments from the same people over and over again, I get depressed when I do read this blog. I do not have unlimited time to post baloney on this blog. No I will not look up a source other than my own ears. My ears heard him say it. Had Mr. Hui heard it, he could have misquoted him in the paper like he does everyone else.
Sorry to have asked
Thu, 02/10/2011 - 14:01 — nancyncdidn't mean to upset you - just don't trust hearsay so much, especially given the heavily biased postings I read.
I prefer sourced quotes. Now if you say you personally heard it, you didn't say where, or in what context or why it was said, was it a reply to a question from a member of the public at a public meeting etc.
So I'll just ignore it, since it's something you heard but care not to elaborate or provide context. It's the safest thing to do with hearsay.
Not sorry at all
Fri, 02/11/2011 - 07:53 — hannibalAre you? So basically, I can hear Margiotta speak something at a political rally in summer of 2009 prior to the election for resegregation, and you won't believe me. I can have a friend in Garner who wants to talk to Tedesco regarding the high percent of F&R at Aversboro Elementary School and hear him say he wants to bring Enloe down, but you won't believe me. Frankly any source for that quotes would have long been removed from the internet by now.
Yet a student, whose mother has avidly attacked Enloe at school board meetings, and who has staunchly supported the majority board members makes some allegations and they have to be true? You believe an article written by a clearly biased reporter who should be fired due to his inability to remain impartial and his inability to quote someone correctly?
What should I expect? I guess you folks who only know "Hannibal" as a character in a movie wouldn't know yellow journalism if it hit you in the face with a 2x4.
Look, if you don't have
Fri, 02/11/2011 - 14:33 — Andrew95Look, if you don't have direct quotes, it's pretty much not worth posting. I'm sure Tedesco believes that what he is doing is the right thing to do, (even though I might think it isn't).
I tell the crazies the same thing, so don't be offended. I just don't really think anyone should be allowed to make a point on purely anecdotal evidence.
he wants to bring
Fri, 02/11/2011 - 18:57 — user12345he wants to bring Enloe down,
This pretty much sums up what is wrong with the US, Wake and the present generation (envy) ... success is bringing others down not raise everyone up. This sentiment must be music to the ears of the China and Singapore watching us destroy ourselves from the inside out.
I think you're full of
Fri, 02/11/2011 - 08:43 — CaryCurmudgeonI think you're full of poppycock.
Tell me when Patrice Lee has attacked Enloe at a school board meeting. And speaking of movies, spare me the Ferris Bueller version.... 'uh my sister's boyfriend's cousin saw this guy who knows this girl who saw Patrice attack Enloe at a board meeting, I guess she was pretty mad.' Back to your fava beans!
I don't believe you
Fri, 02/11/2011 - 08:27 — jeffrey1I don't believe you either.
And the fact that you got all defensive when asked for a source leads me to believe that you are making it up.
And the fact that the alleged statement by Margiotta is a year and a half old, and you, a staunch opponent of Margiotta, waited until now to say something here, instead of going public immediately after it was said, when you could have inflicted serious damage to Margiotta's campaign and possibly stopped the elimination of the diversity policy, is yet another strike against you.
Sorry, but it just doesn't add up. On second thought, not sorry at all.
BTW, Hannibal was one of the best military strategists and tacticians, but you failed miserably by not using Margiotta's alleged quote against him. Or perhaps there was no quote. In either case, a new screen name is in order.
Have you been hitting the
Thu, 02/10/2011 - 08:27 — CaryCurmudgeonHave you been hitting the fava beans to hard again?
It was probably the
Thu, 02/10/2011 - 11:26 — woodstockIt was probably the overindulgence in a "nice Chianti."
Wow!
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 12:56 — integritypleaseAre those statements reported anywhere? (In the N&O?) Were they recorded at a meeting?
If they are publicly known, I'm disappointed that they weren't covered in the paper. I can't always read all the articles, perhaps I missed it?
In any case, if it's true, it's utterly stunning that school board leaders would want to "take down" the school system itself let alone any particular group of students and teachers!! Surely that's a violation of their fiduciary responsibility, and probably whatever oath they take, and probably the law governing school boards. If this is accurate, these men are out of control!! This is not a totalitarian regime but a school system charged with protecting the best interests of our children. This is much like implied threats to withdraw letters of recommendation -- but much worse and on a much larger scale. Wow.
Please, is there a way to verify that these statements were made? (Mr. Hui, maybe you could ask Mr. Margiotta and Mr. Tedesco? Of course, Tedesco has denied things that others confirmed ...)
Mr Zhang confirms what we already knew
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 08:31 — stansburyI think Mr. Zhang confirms what we already knew or suspected about magnet schools. Seperate classes under one roof. I don't think the situation is unique to just Enloe. I've heard the same comments about Elementary Magnet schools too. The white kids from the suburbs going to the enrichment classes and the ED/minority children in remedial reading.
This leads me to question the motives of the Enloe High School students/parents protesting so loudly and rudely at the school board meetings. Not interested so much in preserving diversity in their CLASSES, but preserving their elite, "private school-like", tax-payer funded, course offerings.
I'm sure not every magnet parent/student feels this way, but you have to admit the perception is out there - it's not about Diversity but about preserving the better educational opportunites, more MONEY spent per pupil and STABILITY for your children. You're OK with bussing and constant school reassignment for the rest of us though.
I thnk Mr Zhang should be commended for speaking his mind as I'm sure he knew he'd take flack.
I agree Mr. Zhang should be commended
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 13:16 — integrityplease... for raising issues we need to talk about.
Question motives all you like, but I for one am grateful for the diversity my kids have experienced, and do in fact experience every day. They also have expressed real benefit and appreciation for exposure to different perspectives, lifestyles, and challenges people face. I guess you've never been in a magnet school; they're nothing like private schools. You should visit one sometime.
Rejected from Magnets
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 19:10 — stansburyWe applied to two Magnets but were rejected. Our base is underenrolled with poor test scores, so there's no way the "Magnet Czars" were going to accept us into a Magnet school. The Growth Management people told us we were the Last priority for acceptance into a Magnet school back when we applied 3 years ago. You can speculate why. Needless to say, we're in private school.
Sorry to hear that.
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 23:07 — integritypleaseNot sure I understand why, but am willing to learn.
Why
Thu, 02/10/2011 - 01:32 — jeffrey1Because under the old policy, magnet seats went to those who "helped" the policy. Magnet seats go to middle class kids from high achieving suburban base schools because both the magnet school and the base school "benefit" the system. The magnet school gets a middle class kid who balances out the ED kids that are assigned to the magnet school. And the suburban base school gets an extra seat, so that WCPSS can bus an inner-city, low achieving, ED kid to a good suburban school. It's a "win-win" under the logic of the diversity policy.
It follows then, that if the base school is low achieving, then it is not advantageous to the system to allow a high achieving base student out of the base school, because he/she is needed at the base school to balance the numbers. And if the base school is underenrolled, then it is not advantageous to the system, because there are already empty seats in the base school that inner-city kids can fill.
Come on jeffrey, stick to
Thu, 02/10/2011 - 07:45 — magnetParentCome on jeffrey, stick to the facts here. (and people complain about the Enloe teachers putting a bias spin on what they teach). There is no "low/high achieving" element in the magnet selection criteria.
The objectives of the magnet program are listed:
Magnet Programs will be used to create Healthy Schools
throughout the Wake County Public School System by using
choice to help:
• Reduce high concentrations of poverty and support
diverse populations
• Maximize use of school facilities
• Provide expanded educational opportunities
The selection criteria includes:
Criteria for Selection
Applications are selected through a random process using the following criteria:
•Transportation patterns
•Siblings
•School capacity
•Classroom capacity
•Diversity (I believe this component was removed from the selection priorities last year)
•Present magnet/calendar option status of applicant
The priorities are implemented as listed in the following page:
http://www.wcpss.net/news/2010_april1_work_session/
Selection Criteria – Elementary Magnet
Siblings of present magnet students identified on the intent form
After assigning the students who meet the criteria above, the school will determine the number of vacancies available. 90% of these vacancies will be filled from valid applications in the following order:
ROUND ONE
•Assigned to a base school that has a current crowding factor 95% of the adjusted building capacity AND
•Submitted a valid application for the same program the previous year
ROUND TWO
•Same as Round One with deletion of previous year’s application
ROUND THREE
•Same as Round Two with the revision of the crowding factor to be 90% of the adjusted building capacity.
ROUND FOUR
•Same as Round Three with the revision of the crowding factor to be 85%
Ten percent (10%) of vacancies identified above will be filled randomly from all remaining valid applications
The selection is done this way to help satisfy the "Maximize use of school facilities". If a non-magnet school is already under-enrolled, they do not want to deplete the remaining enrollment by putting some in a magnet school.
Conversely, if a non-magnet school is overcrowded, giving priority to those students can help relieve the crowding.
Jeffrey was talking about
Thu, 02/10/2011 - 10:55 — jenmanJeffrey was talking about the previous magnet selection criteria. This current school year was the first since they dropped the SES requirement. The previous criteria was:
Rounds 1&2:
Round 3
Round 4
Last 10% of seats went to schools that did not meet those criteria
While you are correct that there wasn't an achievement factor (there technically was, but it never came into play), achievement is a key component in all of this. Low income is equated to low achieving in WCPSS and although it may not have been officially 'called out', it was a factor in all of this.
Yes, I was talking about the
Thu, 02/10/2011 - 22:15 — jeffrey1Yes, I was talking about the previous selection criteria. Thanks for the backup.
Rejected from Magnets
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 19:10 — stansburyWe applied to two Magnets but were rejected. Our base is underenrolled with poor test scores, so there's no way the "Magnet Czars" were going to accept us into a Magnet school. The Growth Management people told us we were the Last priority for acceptance into a Magnet school back when we applied 3 years ago. You can speculate why. Needless to say, we're in private school.
"They also have expressed
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 15:19 — woodstock"They also have expressed real benefit and appreciation for exposure to different perspectives, lifestyles, and challenges people face."
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Do you really think this does not exist.in other schools, in our neighborhoods and in life in general? Maybe you are the one who needs to get more perspective. The only thing truly unique thing about Magnet Schools are the wealth of special resources and advanced courses and electives they offer.
You always come across as so cranky!
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 22:52 — integritypleaseMaybe you need some attention ... so reliably unpleasant toward people you disagree with. A lot. (Bob - rude?)
Yes, in fact diversity does exist in other schools and that is the beauty of Wake County! There was diversity in my kids' neighborhood school and in my kids' magnet school. They benefitted from diversity in both environments.
"Cranky." Hmm, I've been
Thu, 02/10/2011 - 13:37 — woodstock"Cranky." Hmm, I've been called much worse.
And I am grateful for the
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 14:46 — jeffrey1And I am grateful for the diversity my kids have experienced in the suburban, non-magnet schools. They have friends that are African American, Hispanic, Asian, Middle Eastern, Indian, etc. They have friends who are Christians, Jews, Agnostics, Islamic, etc. They speak English, Spanish, Indian, Chinese, Japanese, etc. They have learned about different cultures.
And contrary to popular belief, not everyone out in the suburbs is rich. Just the other day, my son asked to go to a local sporting event with some friends. He told me that one of his friends likely could not afford the price of the ticket, and asked if I would be willing to pay for the ticket so that he could go. Of course I said yes.
I am sorry that you like so many others seem to define diversity by the differing amounts of income that a student's parents might earn. There is so much more to diversity than money.
I guess you've never been to an ordinary suburban school. You should visit one sometime.
I completely agree about the suburban schools.
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 22:55 — integritypleaseMy kids went to neighborhood schools as well as magnets and experienced diversity in both environments. That's because we have socioeconomic diversity in Wake County, as well as other kinds of diversity. I agree it is a good thing for kids to be with all different kinds of people. It reflects the larger world they'll encounter after school, if they are fortunate.
Good post. My neighborhood
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 17:34 — jenmanGood post. My neighborhood has differentl races, religions, and cultures and my base elem school can stand up to any magnet school in terms of diversity. In fact, I'd say it is more diverse than the majority of magnet schools. And all of that in the suburbs.
I agree.
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 22:55 — integritypleaseFrom a Rick Matinez piece:
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 08:08 — woodstockFrom a Rick Matinez piece: http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/02/09/976427/diversity-doesnt-deliver.html
According to Wake County school system statistics for 2009-2010, Enloe is highly diverse. The student population is made up of 39.9 percent white students, 39.1 percent black or African-American students, 12.1 percent Asian and 5 percent Hispanic students. No other Wake traditional or magnet high school comes close to this diversified mix.
Given that diversity is supposed to help low-income and minority kids, the performance of these population groups should be stellar. Turns out, it's the worst in the district. On state ABC tests, only 60 percent of Enloe's Hispanic student population is at or above grade level. For blacks, it's 55.8 percent and for economically disadvantaged kids it's a mere 49.7 percent.
Minority and poor students fare far better at Southeast Raleigh High, a magnet school with the highest single-ethnicity student population among Wake high schools. Its student body is 71.5 percent black, 17.6 percent white, 6 percent Hispanic and 2 percent Asian. Not much diversity here. Yet 63 percent of blacks, 60 percent of Hispanics and 58.2 percent of economically disadvantaged students are at grade level or above.
At Knightdale High, a traditional school where 62 percent of the students are minority, 68 percent of blacks, 65 percent of Hispanics and 65 percent of poor kids are at grade level or better.
I don't agree with Martinez
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 09:44 — CaryCurmudgeonI don't agree with Martinez about funding school vouchers, but he is dead on about the complete failure of Enloe and other magnets to raise achievement levels for ED/minority kids.
What is the downside of
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 10:04 — woodstockWhat is the downside of vouchers? I don't understand the opposition. Financially it is a gain for taxpayers and it will increases competition which can help raise the bar in terms of the quality of education offered.
so...
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 10:16 — Bob_SconceCurrently, about 25k kids in wake county are educated outside of wcpss. Those kids will be first in line for vouchers. Even if the vouche is only $4k, that's $100M extra from the taxpayers.
Vouchers have a purpose
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 13:07 — Voice_of_Reason_If we really want to do something about overcrowding, vouchers may give us enough time to deal with the growth. In overcrowded schools we could make the number of vouchers available that would bring schools to standard capacity. Only students enrolled in the school would be eligible. The F&R population could have first dibs and then open it up to different income levels from low to high until all vouchers are used. Parents would have too commit within two weeks to enroll in a private school or lose there place in line. This would discourage upper income families from applying just to get out of paying private school tuition. Most private schools make you commit with a large non-refundable tuition payment for the next year early in the year.
I don't see the problem with
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 12:35 — woodstockI don't see the problem with that. It is an investment in education that will ultimately benefit all. It will facilitate higher quality and more options.Vouchers essentially just allows folks to opt out of a governement-provided service.
So...
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 13:01 — Bob_SconceYou claimed that it was financially a benefit for taxpayers. I showed that it would actually increase taxpayer cost.
You can make the argument that it's worth $100M (or whatever the true number is) to gain the benefits that would accrue from a voucher system. But, the fact is that people who have been paying for their own kids' education have, in effect, been subsidizing the public schools. If that subsidy is eliminated, the money will have to come from someplace else. However, when people talk about instituting a voucher program, there's never any talk about a corresponding tax increase to pay for it.
You are only taking into
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 14:13 — woodstockYou are only taking into account those who have already chosen private school and not those who may choose it if vouchers were available. Plus we'd have more kids getting better educations... including potentially those who are now failing in public schools.There may be another benefit too, bad schools would go out of business -- instead of lanquishing like bad public schools tend to do -- as the market would not tolerate it.
Bingo. I also think
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 11:40 — CaryCurmudgeonBingo. I also think vouchers potentially create an unlevel playing field. An affluent family getting a voucher may be inclined to kick in some more money of their own to get their kid into a top flight school, while a poor family doesn't have that option.
And I find it ironic that many people who so strongly believe that the government should not be educating kids don't hesitate to send their own kids to one of our fine state universities. NC already gives vouchers to students choosing in-state private colleges, should we just up the vouchers and chuck the whole system?
"Bingo. I also think
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 12:40 — woodstock"Bingo. I also think vouchers potentially create an unlevel playing field. An affluent family getting a voucher may be inclined to kick in some more money of their own to get their kid into a top flight school, while a poor family doesn't have that option."
Not sure how you conclude
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 14:44 — CaryCurmudgeonNot sure how you conclude that I endorse "mediocre" government-provided education. Many kids get a great education in WCPSS. My hope is that all kids get the chance for a great education in WCPSS. Isn't that what you are hoping for too? If mediocre is the best a public system can do, than a lot of us are wasting our time here.
You said: "An affluent
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 15:29 — woodstockYou said: "An affluent family getting a voucher may be inclined to kick in some more money of their own to get their kid into a top flight school, while a poor family doesn't have that option."
I took that to mean you thought kids from poor families would have to settle for lesser education in something other than a "top-flight" school. What did you mean by tha?. Wouldn't the option a poor family had to choose from still be of high-quality?
Private schools vary
Wed, 02/09/2011 - 22:39 — CaryCurmudgeonPrivate schools vary greatly. In this area, tuition ranges from $8K to $22K a year for high school. For $22K, you get to go to Cary Academy, a top flight school. We tried one of the less-expensive private schools for one year, it was terrible. If everybody gets vouchers, affluent parents would be in a better position to drop the extra coin and send their kids to Cary Academy, while those less-affluent would probably settle for a less-expensive private school that was not on par with Cary Academy. Clear now?
Private schools are not the miracle fix for education in America. They are run almost exclusively as non-profits, so as long as their enrollment is healthy they have no "competitive" requirement to protect their market share. Unleash over 100,000 students with vouchers in hand and it will be decades before enough schools are built to force schools to compete for students. Most private schools in this area are there to provide education in a faith-based environment; and they fulfill that mission, but don't assume their academics are superior to some of our better-performing public schools.
I still don't get it. You
Thu, 02/10/2011 - 10:43 — woodstockI still don't get it. You say the public school are better than the low-cost private schools. I don't doubt that at all. So kids from poor families would still have the option of a pretty good public education. PLUS funding for public schools would likely increase per student (if people chose to used the vouchers) and the education offerings would even get better.
It is interesting that you would mention 100,000 students being " unleashed." That is quite an indictment on our public schools. If parents would have students run for the exits, I am not sure that says much about the quality. I don't believe that would happen. I think Wake County schools offer a pretty damn good product for most students.
As for the whole notion of rich vs. poor parents. Yes, rich folks have more options. I am not sure restricting those options is a benefit to anyone.
So...
Thu, 02/10/2011 - 11:32 — Bob_SconceHere's the worst-case scenario for Wake County:
(1) Vouchers are implemented, $4000/voucher, and 25K students educated outside WCPSS.
(2) The state does not add additional education funding for the vouchers, instead taking the money out of what would have been given to the local district. (Under the impression that voucher-receiving students all represent students which the district no longer needs to educate.)
(3) Private schools, all being non-profit, decide not to increase capacity to admit more students. And, for the same reason, no new private schools come in.
(4) All 25K students currently being educated outside WCPSS apply for vouchers.
(5) The end result is that the state sends a total of $100M to parents who are currently paying for their own kids' education, and then reduces the money which would have otherwise gone to WCPSS by $100M. Meanwhile, WCPSS has to educate the same number of students, but with less money.
Vouchers seem to be a great tool when the public schools are generally bad, there are few students being educated outside the district, and there are non-profits willing to step in and help (often, Catholic Schools fill this void). I don't think that describes Wake County.
I am troubled by
Thu, 02/10/2011 - 13:35 — woodstockI am troubled by conservative saying money is better off in the hands of the government than in our own, that competition and the marketplace are bad, and private enterprise should have only a limited role in education.
?
Thu, 02/10/2011 - 14:58 — Bob_SconceAre you referring to me? When did I say any of those things? I wasn't trying to direct my last criticism of voucher-backers at you, but I can see how it could easily be read that way.
Two short points, in lieu of completely addressing your comment: (1) A voucher program does not leave money in the hands of those who earn it -- it transfers money from those who earn it into the hands of those who have demonstrated that they have no need of it (the people currently paying to have their kids privately educated.) (2) I do not have the same issue with charter schools as I have with voucher programs, because there's not the same effect of reducing funding without also reducing the number of students to educate.
No, my comments weren't
Thu, 02/10/2011 - 17:58 — woodstockNo, my comments weren't specifically addressed at you. You rock and I in agreement with almost everything you post. I just was making the point that some conservatives -- who value the marketplace in most situations -- seem to fear the competition educational options would bring and your comments spurred my thoughts.
To your points, I know the details of any voucher system would need to be worked out, but in principle I like the idea of opting out of a government service and going private. I understand all taxpayers contribute to schools, even if they have no children in the system. So a parent that choose the $4K or so voucher gets a benefit that others don't. HOWEVER, taking the voucher saves the rest of the taxpayers $3K. I am just saying vouchers have potential.
Yeah...
Thu, 02/10/2011 - 23:56 — Bob_SconceSo, I also have a general dislike for govenment doing things that private industry is capable of doing competitively, because private industry almost always does a better job. (The ABC system is a particularly egregious example.)
I'm not universally opposed to vouchers, and I would love to see a vibrant system of hundreds of private schools competing against each other and vying for different niches, such that every student can find the school which does the best job with his particular needs. I just don't see any way to get from here to there. I do hope, however, that raising the charter school cap will bring us closer to that vision.