WakeEd

The WakeEd blog is devoted to discussing and answering questions about the major issues facing the Wake County school system. How much will the new Democratic majority on the school board do to undo the changes made by Republicans since 2009? Will the new student assignment plan be a hybrid of the last two models or primarily be a return to the use of busing for diversity? Who will replace Tony Tata as the new superintendent of the state's largest district? How will voters react to a likely request in 2013 to borrow potentially more than $1 billion to build and renovate schools?

WakeEd is maintained by The News & Observer's Wake schools reporter, T. Keung Hui. While Keung posts information and analysis on the issues, keep us posted on your suggestions, questions, tips and what you're doing to cope with the changes in Wake's schools.

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School board expands size of 2011-12 reassignment plan

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I'll get into more detail later, but the Wake County school board has sharply increased the number of students under consideration for reassignment for the 2011-12 school year.

The biggest clump of additions to the plan come from agreeing to put into consideration these moves that staff said they wanted to recommend but didn't do so because it would have involved moving students who've already recently been reassigned. They're mostly involving cleaning up feeder patterns caused by the staff changing from the original three-year plan the nodes going to Walnut Creek Elementary.

Throw in a whole bunch of nodes, mostly agreed to from the Dec. 14 meeting,  that the board said they wanted to hear parents comment on. They're saying they're not necessarily going to move them.

Adding so many more nodes into consideration means parents there will get written notices encouraging them to attend the five public hearings on the plan that start next week.

Staff doesn't have the exact number of kids now in play. They'll possibly have that tomorrow. The original staff recommended plan had 3,224 students.

Among the things that happened today, staff is now recommending reassigning item 3 from this list to let these Carpenter Village nodes be reassigned from Panther Creek High to Green Hope High.

For those three Carpenter Village nodes, staff is now also recommending that the base and traditional-calendar option for them be Davis Drive Middle. Staff hadn't recommended it before but did so after finding ways to free up space at David Drive, moving some nodes in eastern Cary out to free up space.

After hearing from parents, staff is dropping elementary school changes that have been discussed for Black Horse Run.

Staff is now also recommending dropping from the staff plan the movement of the Holly Springs High students to Middle Creek High. Staff said that Holly Springs can deal with the crowding for one more year while they work on the comprehensive plan for 2012-13.

Also today, board member John Tedesco was shot down in his efforts to move Garner High students to Southeast Raleigh High and Middle Creek High students to Garner High. Lack of space was cited for not going with adding either one to the plan for consideration.

Nothing is final and all the things added for consideration still require a board vote,

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So I finally found a copy of

So I finally found a copy of the capacity handout that Evans presented and the media has referenced.  WEP has a copy on their website:  www.wakeedpartnership.org/news/d/capacitysummary.pdf

There are some issues with this report, or at least how it's being talked about.  First, the Leesville MS capacity prediction of 191.1% is based on the Long Range School Campus Capacity.  The Annual School Campus Capacity prediction for 2013-14 is 125.7%.  Still overcrowded, but that is a lot different from 191%.  BTW, Leesville MS's current LRSCC is 168% and its ASCC is 110%.

The LRSCC is calculated by determining the optimum number of temporary classrooms.  ASCC is calculated using the actual number of temp classrooms that are on a campus.   From the 2010-11 Facility Utlization Report:

Optimum Number of Instructional Temporary Units has been defined as the
number of units that meet the following criteria:
can be physically accommodated on the site;
are permissible by the authorities having jurisdiction and by zoning, etc.;
can be supported by no more than one toilet trailer unit;
can be supported by dining room facilities with no more than 3 seatings based on
Department of Public Instruction Guidelines;

• can be accommodated within 300 feet of the closest building access point; and,
• can be supported by specialized educational program spaces like Career Technical
Education, science, gym, etc.
• can be supported by vehicle traffic patterns.

I bolded the criteria that appear later in that Facilities Util Rpt as ones that limit the number of trailers.  They have a chart listing schools and they have an X on the criteria which limit the number at each school.  So it appears that the first 4 criteria in the list are ones that have code or other physical restrictions placed on them.  The others on that list seem more subjective.
 

Looking at the chart, the only criteria they have checked as limiting trailers at LRMS is the dining requirement.  That same chart lists 0 as the optimum number of temp classrooms and the actual number as 16.  Seeing this, it seems as if the dining guideline isn't a requirement from DPI.   These trailers didn't just suddenly appear.  There were 10 back in 2003-04 (earliest I could find on the website) and it looks like it was raised to 16 in 05-06. 

I have some questions that maybe somebody here can answer.  First, when was the last time we were actually at the Optimum Number of Temp classrooms?  Has there been any urgency in getting us back to that number for not just Leesville MS but all schools that have more than the optimum? 

They have Joyner Elem's projected 2013-14 long range capacity as 168.5% and the annual capacity as 125.5%.  Joyner's current LRSCC is 141.7% and its ASCC is 105.5%  Joyner's optimum number of temp classrooms is 1. In 06-07, Joyner had 0 trailers and had an ASCC of 122%.  They moved the low income kids from Washington Terrace to Leesville Elem in 07-08 to relieve the crowding.  Later that  same year (07-08), they brought in 8 trailers (even though the optimum is 1) and made Joyner the MYR opt out for several schools.  If they are worried about exceeding the long range capacity, why on earth did they add new trailers in the first place?  Especially since they had just reassigned a bunch of kids to relieve crowding?

Then there are schools that have 0 trailers but an optimum number of them listed and that optimum number is used in the LRSCC & ASCC figures.  Some of these schools appear on the list of schools that are under 75%.  For instance, Bugg's optimum number of trailers is listed as 8 but they don't have any.  Their predicted ASCC is 83% and their predicted LRSCC is 63%.  So we are saying that they could have 8 trailers so they aren't fully utilizing their capacity and are on the underenrolled list.  (Even at 83% they are underenrolled, but I hope you see my point).

On a sidenote, my personal favorite is Wakefield Elem which is on the underenrolled watchlist for 2013-14.  LRSCC is 70% and ASCC is 67%.  So much for needing to keep Wakefield year round to handle all of the incoming growth.  This school has been chronically underenrolled since it converted to MYR and it appears that it won't be getting any better. 

Now that I've written this really long and confusing post, the point of it all is that people are reacting to these really high crowding numbers like LRMS's 191% but there is more to it than that.  You really have to look at the reports to get a better understanding and even then you can't understand it all.  Not denying that we have some over and under crowding issues.  Just that it's not so simple.

Thank You!

Jenman...thank you so much for the detailed understanding of their numbers!  I knew that the 190% didn't seem accurate to me for Leesville MS, but at the same time I have never understood how they apply their capacity algorithm because it never seemed to make sense with our ES situation.  I'm really hoping G&P 'thinks' outside the box in regards to some of these under and over enrolled schools.  I'm really interested in what they will do with Hilburn because with the latest plan that I have seen they are still going to be severely under enrolled.  I like the fact that they are thinking about K-8, K-2, 3-5, 6th grade centers and 9th grade centers.  We are not going to be able to build enough schools with the projections they currently have and in my opinion, I don't believe they need to.  They need to use the facilities we have today more efficiently first!

Thank you valspar

This is one of the most helpful posts of the past 24 months. Certainly the best of the new year. And a model of what I like most about this blog: Empowered, data-driven, thoughtful posts that respect school staff and seek the best situation for our kids.

I especially like your conclusions.

land banking

Carolina Journal Exclusives

Three Years Later, Wake School Board Buys Apex Land for Half Price

Past board offered $8.7 million; new school board pays $4.3 million

By David N. Bass

January 05, 2011

 

APEX — In the culmination of a deal that drew complaints of fiscal irresponsibility three years ago, Wake County school board members Tuesday approved the purchase of a tract of land south of Apex, but for half the amount a previous school board was prepared to pay for it.

Efforts to purchase the 108-acre site in 2007 met criticism after the school board — then controlled by a more liberal majority — agreed to pay $8.7 million for the property. Two appraisals later valued the land at around $4 million.

Wake County commissioners deep-sixed the deal after learning that a real-estate investment company, Apex Olive LLC, had bought the land 10 months prior, in 2006, for nearly three times less than the price agreed to by the Wake County school board.

If the agreement had gone through, the investment firm would have pocketed a 63 percent profit.

In a unanimous vote last night, members approved the purchase of the land for $4.26 million (offer to purchase PDF is here). The property’s tax value is $3.97 million, according to the most recent records available.

“By refusing to pay an exorbitant price three years ago, we saved the taxpayers more than $4 million,” said school board chairman Ron Margiotta.

The Apex Olive deal was one of several that generated protests that the previous school board was overpaying for property. Accusations of a conflict of interest also arose after it was revealed that Jim Goodnight, a software billionaire from Cary, is a partner in Apex Olive.

In 2006, Goodnight and his wife, Ann, backed a $970 million bond for school construction, which voters approved. The funds might have been used to pay Apex Olive for the land.

Margiotta said it would be several years before schools are built on the property.

David N. Bass is an associate editor of Carolina Journal. 

2007 was the peak

2007 was the real estate peak. The property was valued at $4m at the peak. 3 years later  in the midst of the recession we are paying more than the peak ?  I would love to be able to sell my house for the assessed value.  Ignoring the past and looking at the current market how can one say this is a good deal ? 

...

This land purchase was big news back in '06/'07. Many of the players who supported the '06 bond ended up being tied into this deal -- not just Goodnight.

I wonder why the N&O hasn't reported this yet.

 

LOL, you must be joking! 

LOL, you must be joking!  they are much too busy skewering Tata and promoting FISTS and protests.....

remember the Jim Black "land deal"?  yeah, where did we hear about that?

I'd dial down the conspiracy

I'd dial down the conspiracy theories. The land deals were announced after a lengthy closed session. Due to lack of space in Wednesday's edition, a decision was made to pursue the story to run Thursday. But I was out sick Wednesday so it put us further behind. My editor is actually working on the story. 

ha, wasn't a "conspiracy

ha, wasn't a "conspiracy theory", just a priority "theory".

hope you are feeling better.

I said so

For those three Carpenter Village nodes, staff is now also recommending that the base and traditional-calendar option for them be Davis Drive Middle. Staff hadn't recommended it before but did so after finding ways to free up space at David Drive, moving some nodes in eastern Cary out to free up space.

For all you who said it would not happen ... here it is ... someone wants into a school ... someone gets booted ... this disruption use to be blamed on diversity ... well here you have it ... white kids displacing white kids .... kids who live closer to the school being pushed east ... so much for proximity ...

...

"...kids who live closer to the school being pushed east ..."

Can you please provide the data to support that statement?

Which nodes are being moved out?

 

That is all you got out of

That is all you got out of that post is an argument of closeness ... you missed the unfairness and the usual blaming on diversity that accompanies reassignments???  So, the lady at Goldman's meeting who lives by Bond Park and had been reassigned four times will find out she is in for a fifth ... 

As far as absolute closeness until we see which nodes get screwed, we won't know ...

but if you look at the distance map for Green Hope which has one of the most concentrated assignment areas where most of the kids live with in 3 miles of the school so are all close ... also, I think Carpenter Village is as closer to Panther Creek (though across 55) than Green Hope ... but the main points are:

1) Money buys access

2) These spot assignment in West Cary have nothing to do with Diversity.

Next to go will be MacGregor Downs to repay their donations ...

...

What I got out of your post is that you are making claims that the nodes moving out are closer than the nodes moving in. I asked for data to support that. It may be true -- but I doubt it.

Those spot assignments became spot assignments because of diversity. Unraveling the diversity web will involve reassignment. CV is aware of that as they ask for a proximate assignment. I will assume (until I find out which nodes) that those being reassigned out of DDMS will also benefit from a closer assignment.

MacGregor is a whole other story.

Unraveling the diversity web

Unraveling the diversity web will involve reassignment. CV is aware of that as they ask for a proximate assignment.

I don't know how you can say with a straight face that moving some affluent white kids from west of Green Hope by displacing some affluent white kids equidistance on the east has anything to do with diversity ...

...

Your first comment was about Davis Drive Middle school. You claimed that "kids who live closer to the school (Davis Drive Middle) [were] being pushed east". I asked with a straight face for the data to support that.

Now you've changed the conversation to Green Hope HS. I don't see any mention in this post about displacing any students, affluent or otherwise, out of Green Hope HS to accommodate the CV families.

Ok stick with DDM ... white

Ok stick with DDM ... white affluent kids displacing white affluent kids ... I don't see the diversity ...

So your complete definition

So your complete definition of diversity revolves around a person's skin color and income. That's it? Also, what does "affluent" mean to you; is that everyone not living in poverty?

 Staff reassigned

 Staff reassigned non-proximate (basically diversity nodes out of Davis Dr to make room for Carpenter Village). I watched the COW and the nodes I remember were 6.0, and 97.0 and 98.0. There may be some others. Following the new policy 6200 these students were reassigned to closer schools such as Combs ES, Reedy Creek ES and MS, Centennial MS and Athens HS.

    Hope there are less

 

 

Hope there are less than 47 kids in Carpenter Village

node

base_elem

base_elem2

base_mdl_n

memb_6_8

006.0

DAVIS DRES

390

DAVIS DRMS

18

097.0

DAVIS DRES

390

DAVIS DRMS

15

098.0

WEATHERSTONE ES

598

DAVIS DRMS

14

 

 

 

 

47

...

Are they all white affluent kids?

 

Which ones - the 47 from

Which ones - the 47 from these three nodes or the yet to be determined ones from West Cary?

...

Who are the "yet to be determined ones"? I thought CV was moving in from west Cary. We know which nodes they are.

You said white affluent kids were displacing white affluent kids who lived closer to DDMS -- and that you didn't see how diversity was a factor in this reassignment. I'm just asking for the data to support that -- again.

 

...

And, back to my original questions...

Can you please provide the data to support that statement?

Which nodes are being moved out?

We Need To Get Accurate Numbers...

The WRAL website story says Leesville MS is estimated to be at 190% capacity in a few years!  Really...they expect to have 2300 kids at that middle school!  I've seen G&P report wrong numbers for several schools I'm familiar with.  What does it take to get accurate data? 

Understanding the data first will help

JanisTango - You used the wrong numbers to multiply by.  191.1% = 1527 students projected.

I now have the document WRAL cites.  The LRSCC is 191.1% and the ASCC is 125.7%, which is their projection for 13-14 for Leesville, and appears accurate, based upon those same numbers as they are today, factoring in growth to the area.  The numbers below are from Growth and Planning's website, 2010-2011 Facilities Utilization Report:, from the 20 day numbers dated September 22, 2010:

Leesville Middle is a small footprint middle school. Numbers reflect its current traditional calendar capacity function:

SBC - School building capacity = 799, Optimum Temporary classrooms = 0, so

LRSCC = 799

Existing Temp classrooms (trailers) 16

Trailer capacity 416

ASCC - annual school capacity (SBC + trailers) = 1215

20 day membership 1344
ASCC crowding % as of 20 day membership = 110.6%

20 day 2010-2011 LRSCC = 168.2%

34.2% of Leesville capacity is trailer capacity

Leesville Middle would make the list today, as the ranges for the report are <75% and >120% LRSCC. 

Can you see Leesville Middle growing from 1344 to 1527? (+183)

 

 

 

 

I Wish They Would Explain The Algorithms They Use

Your explanation makes sense, but I still don't buy it if the current capacity figures they use is 1215.  They don't seem to use a consistent data analysis method across WCPSS.  Most middle schools today are handling about 1000-1200 students.  The numbers they talk about just don't jive for many schools.  Our currently ES is listed as being overcapacity when we still have 3 classrooms in the building that are 'empty'.  I specifically ask our principal and our NC Wise staff if our school was over capacity and both of them stated no.  How can it be so difficult to get accurate numbers? 

I remember talking to someone in G&P years ago and the truth was they really didn't have any idea what the real numbers were.  Could this be the reason we have so many over enrolled and under enrolled schools?  I believe it is!  It's the problem G&P created with the constant shuffling of kids around like a shell game! 

Tell me the elementary school

Janis - If you feel comfortable sharing the elementary school on this forum, I will provide the same numbers and an analysis. Or you can go to  WW

WCPSS website.  In the search box at the top type Growth Management

The growth management page link comes up first for me - it is

wcpss.net/growth-management/

once there, go for Long Range Planning

You will find a link to the report I reference, along with how capacity is determined, current crowding, short term planning, and long term planning. I found how capacity is determined fascinating, as it shows why the general public "just doesn't get it".  This is much more complicated than counting rooms, and counting the number of children that can fill them, and I am humbled by those staff that has the wherewithal to stare at such day in and day out, all while being chastised by the general public.  Quickly I deduced this is why we have staff develop a comprehensive facilities utilization plan, vs elected officials micro managing. There is much backside work involved before a student is moved, that the public never sees or can appreciate. It all comes down to enabling staff to do the work as per board policy, vs the board doing the work of staff. 

Thank You!

I will definitely go read this information!  Thank you for providing it.  I guess I still don't understand why the G&P staff says the school is over capacity when the principal and NC Wise staff doesn't agree.  Maybe that is a problem that needs to be looked at. 

I guess I got back to to the fact the G&P didn't really know certain numbers years ago.  Maybe they need to go back to square one and make sure their data is correct before trying to make the decisions they are making with the data they have. 

I'll post the handout in the

I'll post the handout in the morning.

Keung - have you posted this?

Keung - have you posted this?

I'm here to bug him about

I'm here to bug him about this too.  :-)

It takes a strong

It takes a strong superintendent who will not tolerate staff playing games with numbers.

Please reference my post to JanisTango

CaryCurmudgeon -

Please reference my post under JanisTango's

Thanks for clearing it up,

Thanks for clearing it up, valspar.

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About the blogger

T. Keung Hui covers Wake schools.
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