Wake County school board chairman Ron Margiotta is trumpeting the latest data being used to justify to federal investigators the elimination of the diversity policy.
In an interview Wednesday on the Bill LuMaye show on WPTF, Margiotta said "our staff has produced numbers and has produced results that show that the system we used in the past did not work." He says it shows the board is now focused on improving achievement for all students.
When Margiotta said the data in the OCR response letter was complied by staff, LuMaye said that means it was done by "those who may not be on board with the new policy." Margiotta agreed.
"This is a staff that has never been supportive of what we're trying to do in the way of busing for diversity," Margiotta said. "They've always supported the busing, diversity policy. And now that there's been a change in thinking on the board, we're finally seeing reports come out that have been requested for a long time but have never been forthcoming,"
Margiotta also acknowledged that Wake had seen academic gains in 2009-10 to close the achievement gap. But he said that Wake hasn't been doing it as fast as the state and Charlotte-Mecklenburg Schools. He was referencing a chart that had been done by Ann Rouleau, his rep on the disbanded student assignment committee.
"They've been doing a better job than we have," Margiotta said of CMS. "The sad part of it is that it's not just with the economically disadvantaged students. The same results when it comes to the non-economically disadvantaged students.
So it shows that our system needs help. We have so much concentration and discussion on the students that are the low performers and while they certainly need all the help we can give them, we should also and we must and we're obligated to have a concern for the high-performing students that are not getting the proper achievement."
LuMaye asked if Margiotta considered the new data a "turning point for the board" to get the Democratic members "to accept them and move forward."
"I think people might realize that what we've been talking about for this past year-and-a-half has a strong basis of fact. Maybe they'll recognize what we're trying to do is to help kids."
Earlier in the interview, Margiotta also restated his concerns that U.S. Education Secretary Arne Duncan's criticism of Wake makes it "questionable" they'll get a fair hearing from the feds.
"When your boss comes out with that kind of criticism, it certainly puts a doubt into my mind as to how objective the team can be," Margiotta said.
UPDATE
Click here for a chart from Rouleau comparing ED performance over time between Wake and Charlotte.
Click here for a chart from Rouleau comparing non-ED performance over time between Wake and Charlotte.
Click here for a chart from Rouleau comparing the ED and non-ED performance over time on EOCs between Wake and the state.
Comments
Margiotta on WPTF - Appealing to the base
Thu, 03/31/2011 - 18:11 — Apexcitizen1Margiotta on WPTF is analogous to:
1. The liberal bloggers posting on there their blogs about the issue.
2. Pallin on Fox
3. Huffington on MSNBC
Margiotta took the path of least resistance in supporting his numbers. Did anyone who listen really expect a serious interview.
Why should we emulate CMS?
Thu, 03/31/2011 - 11:43 — Ewood79I'm surprised that the data on CMS is supposed to be conclusive as to what is going on in Wake. CMS has done statistically insignificantly better on some standardized tests for some groups and worse on others over a period of time that is too small to be conclusive after being outperformed by Wake for years. At best its a mixed bag. There are many differing policies between the two districts, student assignement is just one of them. CMS has done some good things with Pre-K that have helped and done some other things to make their test scores look pretty. But if we give CMS the smell test and look the precarious situation of those schools, rife with closings and escalating community tensions, is it really a model for Wake?
Its also funny to see Board proponents suddently put so much weight on a tiny subset of data after freely ignoring the mountains of data from across the country and world showing that high concentrations of low performing students in schools is incredibly expensive and harms the education of every student in the county. Superintendent Tata has said as much (see N&O article on Tata from March 4th). Wake and CMS can both do much better, but student assignment will never be the magic bullet. We need to move past this emotional debate and get down to the business of improving education for students using proven polices that improve the quality of instruction in the classroom.
Because...
Thu, 03/31/2011 - 16:35 — bpuli9999CMS did something that the current crop of BoE really like and want to do here in Wake. Create a bunch of high-poverty schools. Whenever the comparison is done, they conveniently forget to mention that.
And also because the CMS super is the Wake super "mentor". Wake has so much to learn from CMS.
Margiotta deserves
Thu, 03/31/2011 - 11:18 — woodstockMargiotta deserves everyone's respect and gratitude for fighting the fight for so long even when faced with relentless opposition from the old status quo board members. Finally, we we are beginning so see the travesty of what has been occurring in Wake County school or decades. Thank you Ron Margiotta, you are man of principle and perseverance.
Margiotta is a idiot
Thu, 03/31/2011 - 11:11 — JoeTarheelNo college degree. No kids in the school system.
and in a close race as to which board member is the most 'creepy' and reminds you most of the "Van Man": Tedesco or Margiotta?
Margiotta is a idiot
Thu, 03/31/2011 - 11:11 — JoeTarheelNo college degree. No kids in the school system.
and in a close race as to which board member is the most 'creepy' and reminds you most of the "Van Man": Tedesco or Margiotta?
So now that there is proof
Thu, 03/31/2011 - 10:14 — FSandYOUcan any of the past human failures that created this mess be brought to trial?
Sure. Right after...
Thu, 03/31/2011 - 12:19 — bpuli9999trials for the Iraq war conclude, I suppose.
The previous school board's trials
Thu, 03/31/2011 - 13:42 — FSandYOUalong with their spineless leaders, the ones who quit, should come first.
You are not saying that...
Thu, 03/31/2011 - 16:37 — bpuli9999Sarah 'Quitter' Palin - our fearless leader's idol - is spineless?
I honestly hope you are not
Thu, 03/31/2011 - 16:21 — Andrew95I honestly hope you are not so misled as to believe that ANY school policy (whether on your side or mine) equates to a war crime.
Andrew....Time to grow up
Thu, 03/31/2011 - 16:39 — shearertwAndrew....Time to grow up buddy.
I'm sorry our education system has failed you, but no war crimes have been committed with regard to Iraq. All you need to do is say thank you to those of us who have served (including W) for allowing you to live in the greatest country in the world with the freedom to be as big of a moron as you like and say as many dumb things as you like. One of these days, you'll (hopefully) be mature enough to realize how you've been mislead into to your current belief system. So, in advance of that day, I'll say, " You're welcome."
I wonder what the people of
Thu, 03/31/2011 - 18:17 — red_balloonI wonder what the people of Iraq have to say about that.
Andrew and You
Thu, 03/31/2011 - 17:57 — Apexcitizen1Shearertw,
Thank you for your service...but you must remember just because you served doesn't mean your opinion is any more valid or correct than someone who didn't serve. You should be thankful that Andrew is using his First Amendment right to participating in the democratic process. Please remember our construction didn't bestow special right on people who served or make their opinion or belief any more valid then someone who didn't. I must say your argument is really pretty weak when all you can do is attack Andrew's position because of his age. Debate the topic not attack the person. By the way where's your certificate that your belief system is the only correct one? The other thing only only know a single aspect of his belief system. I would wager that you have more shared beliefs that dissenting beliefs. After all your both Americans and as they say "United we Stand, Divided we Fall".
Thank you for your service
Andrew made a statement
Fri, 04/01/2011 - 09:52 — shearertwAndrew made a statement suggesting we should be having war crimes trials regarding US operations in Iraq. Reading the thread, you don't have to be a HS genius boy to see where he was going with that....
In my opinion, that is a low blow to the men and women who have served over there as well as to the love ones who have lost a son, daughter, husband or wife there. I don't take his statement lightly. I support his right to say it and would stand in front of an Army by myself to defend his right to say it. I'd also turn around and tell him, as someone with a lot more worldly experience and education, that it was a stupid comment. Andrew is a naive young man, as we all were once. It may not be clear to you, but it is clear to me that he has had very little balance with regard to the influences in his life and has very little understanding of the real world outside. My hope is that one day, when he has seen more of the real world, he will thank about some of the comments he has made in a different light. As VOR said, me and many thousands of Americans are standing there ready to die to make sure people like Andrew can say all the dumb things they want to. That doesn't mean its not good advice to hold your tongue when you may not know what you're talking about....
Re-read the thread... The
Fri, 04/01/2011 - 10:35 — magnetParentRe-read the thread... The suggestion of war crimes regarding Iraq was introduced by bpuli9999, as Andrew has already mentioned. He only asked a question to FSandYou who suggested that the previous school board's actions are worse than war crimes. Your lecture should be towards bpul, though you are focused on Andrew because he's a "naive young man" (your words, not mine)
Newsflash for you confused beings
Fri, 04/01/2011 - 11:11 — FSandYOUI never said squat about war crimes. The entire notion of "war crimes" is irrelevant to me. My point was before any frivolous garbage agenda such as "war crimes" take place, we bring those to justice who have destroyed our school system.
Learn to read or don't bother!
The best form of "justice"
Fri, 04/01/2011 - 14:53 — HJ2ss2The best form of "justice" will be developing a school system that is student centered. Hopefully that will happen.
Bad News FSandYou
Fri, 04/01/2011 - 13:27 — Apexcitizen1Hate break the bad news to you but if you want to bring people to justice for as you say "destroyed our school system" then you have to indite pretty much the entire populous who support both of the main political parties. Instead of creating schools that focus making keeping the US the global leader we have both parties using the schools as a tool to push their ideological agendas. Its about injecting and protecting their special interests into education and supporting their own version of the status quo. Its about being self centered. Education has become discussions about "what's in it for me" not what's best for the country or the students.
It will be disingenuous if you attribute this "destruction" to one particular side, one view or one particular issue.
The problem I see is that our politicians at all levels are, short term thinkers, focused on funding their next campaign making headlines, not serving honorably as an elected official. On occasion there's a few who rise above the short term thinkers.
It's sad when the school my daughters attend have to have a fundraiser to get additional smartboards in the classrooms.
Start by demanding our elected officials to do much more for education and when they do have them check their ideology at the door. No free passes for either side.
PS - What makes you strongly state "destroyed". When exactly were they "destroyed". I suggest you go to some of the local schools and see all the good that's going on and you'll probably change your mind. There certainly a lot that needs to be fixed but those ideas will come from all different areas no one political party has a monopoly on how to improve education.
I think this sums up the
Fri, 04/01/2011 - 14:16 — Andrew95I think this sums up the argument well
http://willybs.posterous.com/tom-the-dancing-bug-counter-earths-dept-of-ed
I was reading "between the
Fri, 04/01/2011 - 10:42 — shearertwI was reading "between the lines" as to Andrew's comments. Continue reading the thread as Andrew doubles down on his opinion of our military in Iraq. I think that confirms that what I read "between the lines" was correct.
Fortunately for the U.S.
Fri, 04/01/2011 - 10:47 — Andrew95Fortunately for the U.S. military, only the losing side is ever brought to justice.
But alas, my original comment did not intend to suggest that I believe war trials should be held for members of the U.S. military and mercenaries who did things that nobody should ever do. However, to say the military has no criminals in it is blatantly false.
No such statement from Andrew
Fri, 04/01/2011 - 10:30 — Apexcitizen1Shearertw and Woodstock,
You need to reread the blog. Andrew made no such statement about war crime trials.
Andrew was question the argument and statements between FSandYou and Bpuli9999. They were the ones making the war crimes statements. He called them out for that.
Let's not make this blog a discussion on Andrew and his age. There's a lot of posters on this blog who are twice his age and certainly display less maturity and have way more growing up to do then Andrew does. No need to name any names.
Getting back to the issue.
Ron should have taken the high road and just kept quite. Afterall there's a Federal involved here. There really was no need for him to prove his point and defend his decisions by going on WPTF. Go on WPTF and talk about the 100 good things going on in the WCPSS. Just let the lib bloggers continue to spew what ever they want on their websites as that then becomes the best support for the new policy.
Ron needs ignore the circus on both side and do what he feels is right for WCPSS the elections will be the best arbitrator of his support.
We may read the thread
Fri, 04/01/2011 - 10:38 — shearertwWe may read the thread differently, but Andrew has since made his opinion clear about our military and Iraq. I think that speaks for itself as to the true intentions of his statement.
Back on this issue, I don't necessarily disagree that sometimes its best to stay out of the mud, however, as Andrew's opinion's reflect, sometimes perceptions mean more than reality. The only way to combat that is to try and get your message out through the clutter. Its a fine line.
While I agree that Shearetw shot too quick at Andrew
Thu, 03/31/2011 - 20:51 — Voice_of_Reason_I don't think I would using the word "thankful" in your comment about the use of the 1st Amendment. Andrew has a right to his point of view to be heard, but one does not have to be thankful for his exercise of that right. Personally I wish a lot of people would shut their trap, I am sure you do to. I would defend their right to say it, but I would also defend others rights not to listen. Unlike a lot of pro-diversity bussing people, I don't believe in using the methods they used to shut down the democratic process though.
As far as your use of Divided - Isn't that what the Democrats want, they seem to divide the whole of America into various groups [African-American, Latin=American, Native-American, Working Poor, Undocumented Worker, Rich, and other class warfare terms] . Personally in my mind everyone is American or they are not.
BTW -. I personnally would listen to someone who was willing to give their life for a cause than someone that supports a point of view because it makes them feel good. They might not be always right, but IMHO they should be listened to with a little more credibility than the average American with little worldly experience. Especially military officers, which I believe Shearertw was. [my opinion -speaking from a lot of experience]
I respect an individual's
Thu, 03/31/2011 - 22:51 — Andrew95I respect an individual's choice to be in the military, but I do not believe it makes them more credible than anyone else, except maybe on the subjcet of the military and war. And this comes from someone with a heavy military family history. (My great great grandfather was four star general Lucian Truscott.) War does not interest me in the slightest, and I believe there are very few instances in which it was necessary.
And I don't agree with the separation of groups that does occasionally occur in the political system; on both sides. The democrats pit the rich against the poor, while the republicans pit the poor against the lower middle class (or more recently, the private poor against the public poor). Neither is conducive to anything but vote-gathering.
The lack of depth and
Fri, 04/01/2011 - 08:54 — woodstockThe lack of depth and breadth in your insights is astounding. I know you are young, but I am assuming you are older than 12... which seems to be the awareness of level of most of your posts. Perhaps you need to read something other than left-wing how-to manuals and/or broaden the diversity of your circle of peers and mentors.
Your naiveté is evident in your comment revealing that "war does not interest me in the slightest." Having no interest in them suggests you don't care about or want to understand the siminal issues that helped shape and define the world we live in. Just curious, what wars were, in your view, "necessary?"
FYI, I am not sure the fact that you have a relative who served more than a century ago makes you part of a "military family."
Last time I checked, WWII
Fri, 04/01/2011 - 11:00 — Andrew95Last time I checked, WWII wasn't a century ago. Lucian Truscott was a four star general, his son went on to fight in Korea and Vietnam, and then HIS son went on to graduate from west point and was a military journalist in iraq. I would say that up until an adoption broke the family line, my ancestry was heavily military. If the respect for service you have is what you claim it is, then I imagine you wouldn't have been so dismissive.
I don't read left wing propaganda. If you're looking for my views on the military and war, I get it partly from my parents, and partly from books like Slaughterhouse Five and Catch - 22. (And before you ask, yes, I am fully aware that Catch - 22 was satirical.) My lack of support for war efforts is my opinion that is just as credible as anyone else's. They can choose not to listen if they feel that strongly about it.
One more thing; when I said war does not interest me in the slightest, that did not mean that I ignore information about wars. I meant to say that I have no interest in joining the military or supporting unnecessary decisions of war.
So your a "great, great,
Fri, 04/01/2011 - 12:17 — woodstockSo your a "great, great, grandfather" served in WWII? I suppose that is possible... I am significantly older than you and my great, great grand fathers were born around 1860 so it didn't add up for me at first.
Slaughter House 5 and Catch 22 are great books, however as works of fiction (one's actually science fiction), however the hardly provide an accurate and historical perspective on war.
Even as much as I disagree with the Obama adminstration, assisting with the Lybian situation was probably the right thing to do. We could not sit back and allow the slaughter of citizens to continue.
You should know that simple holding an impassioned opinion does not make your view credible. Some folks deny the holocaust and the the moon landing, their opinions are decidedly not credible regardless of how passioately they believe it. Credibility is earned through demonstration that one knows the facts and can come to logical conclusions using those facts.
Finally no one likes war... NO ONE.
If you don't believe me,
Fri, 04/01/2011 - 12:38 — Andrew95If you don't believe me, google him. Lucian Truscott.
Kurt Vonnegut said explicitly that he doesn't write science fiction. Parts of Slaughterhouse Five were based on Vonnegut's own experiences as a POW in Dresden during WWII, and he wrote other accounts based on things he saw while he was there. Regardless of their exact historical accuracy, it gives an opinion on war that I agree with.
If credibility were decided on fact, then debate wouldn't exist. Humans have factually proven many things that logical people still find ridiculous. It all depends on what you decide is fact, and what you were brought up to believe.
I didn't say I didn't
Fri, 04/01/2011 - 14:50 — woodstockI didn't say I didn't believe you, I explained my questioning of it, that's all. I thought maybe you had an extra "great" in there as it did not seem to add up timewise. BTW, I doubt if I google him it will state that he is the great, great, grandfather of Andrew95 the N&O blogger... maybe it will on Wikipedia.
Slaughterhouse Five is widely recognized as a science fiction novel regardless of what Vonnegut says about it. That some elements of it are autobiographical does not change that... where there is time travel there is science fiction.. I find it very had to believe you want to use this book to defind your position on the necessity -- or not -- of war.
Also, Slaughterhouse Five is often billed an anti-war novel, yet I am not sure there is such a thing as pro-war. It is a mistake a lot of liberals make, no one is pro-war, some just recognize the need for it at times.
"It all depends on what you decide is fact..."
I didn't know facts were so fluid and they depended on personal perspective. So is 2+2=4 just a mutually agreed upon opinion?
That's a much simpler fact
Fri, 04/01/2011 - 15:08 — Andrew95That's a much simpler fact than the ones I'm talking about. We have consistently proven that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and cannot be "cured", yet people still hold that there is scientific evidence that proves otherwise. That's just one example. What I'm saying is the decison to go to war is far too complicated to say "It is a fact that we should/should not have gone to war". There has to be some opinion in the decision, so you can't tell me that I am factually wrong when I oppose such a thing.
And I suppose, yes, I have no proof other than family documents that he is, in fact my great, great grandfather. But I do own all of his books and the copy of Life Magazine with a feature on him. (During WWII, Life did a feature on every general. I probably have one of the only copies of that specific one that exists outside of a collection or war musem.)
So....
Fri, 04/01/2011 - 15:38 — Bob_SconceWe have consistently proven that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and cannot be "cured."
Huh? This isn't a rathole I want to go down, but I'll point out that there's extremely little that's been "proven" about the human mind, including how sexual orientation is determined.
How about a less
Fri, 04/01/2011 - 16:03 — Andrew95How about a less contriversial example, seeing as how the ignorance goes deeper than I imagined; it was once "proven" that the world was flat.
And this is as far as I'll go with this: Sexual orientation has consistenly been proven to have a profound effect on sexuality. The consensus among scholars of the subject is that sexual orientation is not a choice. The pseudo-scientific field that says it is a choice is notoriously full for religious idealogues and "marriage protection" advocates.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080705070356AAqBDWh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_orientation#cite_note-pediatrics2004-2
the sources are what I'm pointing out, not the article itself, just in case you wanted to debate the credibility of wikipedia.
And in case you were wondering, yes I did look at sources that said otherwise (specifically Conservipedia) and they couldn't cite one scientifically conducted experiment that disproved the genetic component.
So...
Fri, 04/01/2011 - 17:07 — Bob_SconceI'm not interested in getting into an argument about whether people are born gay. My point is just that you were overstating the merits of what, I agree, is the consensus position.
I do distrust Wikipedia on matters of current popular debate, especially when there are strong emotions on both sides. That extends to the manner in which references are selected for inclusion in the articles.
Just a side topic here, but
Fri, 04/01/2011 - 18:55 — jenmanJust a side topic here, but are kids today expected to do actual research anymore? Using books in a library? Or are they allowed to do it all on the internet?
Hmm...
Sat, 04/02/2011 - 09:07 — Bob_SconceI have to do research occasionally, but almost never use books. Everything I need is on-line and it seems that reference works are increasingly available on-line.
Unfortunately, Wikipedia tends to be the go-to source. Often that's fine -- its accuracy was favorably compared to Encyclopedia Brittanica's -- but if there's anything remotely controversial, you often end up with either one position or the other described, with the other given short shrift. Sometimes, the two sides reach a compromise position, but that's not really any better -- Ideally, you want both positions to be described.
"...it was once "proven"
Fri, 04/01/2011 - 16:53 — woodstock"...it was once "proven" that the world was flat."
Not true. Although many believed the world to be flat, you cannot say it was "proven." There is an enormous difference.
The concept of a spherical earth was established in the 6th century BC, long before the idea of the scientific method was established in an attempt to "prove" things.
I believe you are the only
Fri, 04/01/2011 - 15:49 — HJ2ss2I believe you are the only one who can take this out of the school yard brawl mode.
I hope you realize that the
Fri, 04/01/2011 - 16:05 — Andrew95I hope you realize that the internet exists to promote "schoolyard brawls". It gives people who might otherwise not speak their opinion a sheild to hide behind when they're potentially wrong or hurtful. (And yes, I intend this to apply to myself as well. Although I don't belive I've ever been intentionally hurtful to anyone here.)
Sorry Andrew. It does not
Fri, 04/01/2011 - 19:11 — HJ2ss2Sorry Andrew. It does not exist to promote "schoolyard brawls". That is your perception of why it exists. Hiding behind the shield of the internet doesn't say much about a person. ( You are welcome to ask Keung for my contact information).
You seem bright. Why are you letting everyone put you on the defensive?
Several things you don't understand Andrew
Fri, 04/01/2011 - 10:01 — Voice_of_Reason_Military people work in jobs in an environment that has people from all walks of life and from throughout the country. People who grew up in the ghettos to those that were born in mansions are all in there. That shapes their opinions differently from those that live in one place and only travel outside the area on short trips. Some. like myself, have lived and worked with people from other countries/cultures also. I have travelled throughout this country and the world. While all of us might be trained in some sort of combat, (some just local defense) most of us held jobs that are very similar to what most civilians do. In fact, military officers that are combat operations like myself have held many jobs beside their combat job (mine was flying). For example: I've been a supervisor, a teacher, a computer programmer, a manager, a transportation/logistics coordinator, a safety monitor, a researcher, a planner, an inspector, an exercise coordinator, a contract monitor, and have been trained in everything from first aid to survival. Heck, I even drove a big truck across the country once. At 25 years of age, I supervised 30 people and over $150 million worth of equipment (how many civilians can claim that?). I was in combat operations, there are many, many in the military in support roles also that held jobs almost completely like civilian jobs. It's not all about combat like a lot of civilians believe, not at all. The military has all sorts of jobs, from cooks to research scientists. And I guess I left out almost all medical professions. Very few know about how to conduct a war.
BTW Andrew , I detest war also. Most in the military do. The reason we serve is so we stay out of war and people like you and our allies don't have to live through one. Politicians start wars, not the military; we just execute lawful orders within the parameters politicians set. They are also international laws that must be followed because the US has signed treaties that make them the laws of our land.
----------------
Side note: How do the Republicans pit the poor against the middle class? If you listen carefully, the Democrats have quit talking about the poor, they are suddenly the champions of the middle class. The Dems are trying to further sub-divide. The Republicans I know want to help the poor help themselves by giving them a hand up, not a hand out. Handouts only make the poverty problem worse by creating a permanent entitlement class. Ask youself, has the poverty rate in this country gone down since the "War on Poverty" started? Look it up, $Trillions down the drain, prisons filled with people with little self-respect.
Well in the first place, I
Thu, 03/31/2011 - 17:33 — Andrew95Well in the first place, I never said anything about iraq. That was Bpul's comment. I hadn't even seen that before I you brought it up. (but it's beside the fact that I believe horrible things have been done by members of the U.S. military and their affiliates, whether or not they are war crimes is irrelevant to me.) Not to mention, history doesn't cover the Iraq war, so any information on that front is not the responsibilty of the education system.
And I hope I never grow so "mature" as to become someone as scared and conceited as yourself.
So, no thanks.
Not to mention, history
Fri, 04/01/2011 - 18:37 — woodstockNot to mention, history doesn't cover the Iraq war, so any information on that front is not the responsibilty of the education system.
It is comments like this where you really show your age and immaturity. One role of our educational system -- perhaps even its most important role -- is to instill the concept of life-long learning and a quest for knowledge and inderstanding. You seem to have missed that day by your suggestion that if you weren't taught it n school, it is not worth knowing.
You misunderstand. I meant
Sat, 04/02/2011 - 11:05 — Andrew95You misunderstand. I meant to say that you were using my "lack" of knowledge to bash the school system that I feel has done a pretty good job with me. I never intended to say that anything wasn't worth learning. I feel I know a pretty good amount about the occupation in Iraq compared to your average highschool student, based on discussions I've had with other students.
You obviously are a smart
Sat, 04/02/2011 - 11:47 — woodstockYou obviously are a smart kid and that fact that you are here debating demonstrates your interest in learning and understanding. However, you seem to have had powerful liberal influences that have shaped your perspectives and haven't taken the time to explore other views. IMHO, you are a little young to have it all figured out and be so committed to an ideology. You don't even know what you don't know.
The education system may not
Fri, 04/01/2011 - 10:20 — shearertwThe education system may not teach the history of the Iraq war but they should be teaching you how to seek out information for yourself so that you can make educated decisions based on facts rather than what you hear from people with an agenda. Andrew, war is ugly and is something to be avoided. Losing our freedom and American way of life is unacceptable and must be protected. Sometimes, the ugly war is justified by latter. You have to understand the people fight wars and no person is perfect. I'd submit to you that you are in no place to judge the actions of a person, perhaps 19 years old, walking down a dark ally in Iraq after days of real fighting, buddies getting killed against an enemy so cowardly as to not where a uniform. The amazing thing about our military is not the occasional poor choices that are made by an extremely small number of stressed out 19 year olds, but the vast majority of good decisions that are made by these young men and women. You have not seen the pictures of our military Drs treating the Iraqi children. I have. You have not heard the stories of the Iraqi people who have been saved by American service men and women who sacrificed their lives for them. Our military personnel serving in Iraq have placed the lives of the Iraqi people above their own whilst the enemy they fight could care less how many Iraqi's die. There is 10,000X more to be proud of with regard to our military operations in Iraq including bringing a chance for freedom to an entire country which has been ruled by a brutal dictator for decades. I don't ask that you adopt my point of view, I only ask that you dig deeper than believing only what you hear. Failing to teach you to find out information for yourself and see the bigger picture is where our education system has gone wrong.
You miss the point. I
Fri, 04/01/2011 - 11:09 — Andrew95You miss the point. I understand that the vast majority of the U.S. military is made up of highly respectable young men and women. That does not justify the horrors of what has gone on there. I belive the decision to go to war there was a mistake. Yes, dictators are horrible, but frankly, we didn't care until he wanted our oil. Then we tried to justify taking him down because of WMD's that weren't there and his Al Queda operatives that didn't exist. (Saddam was secular. He killed religious extremists quite often.) If we want to have a position that all dictators need to be taken down, fine. But a ten+ year occupation and 2.9 trillion dollars does not make it a viable solution.
You don't need to argue against my points, because I understand you and I have different views on how military action should be used. This is a statement of my opinion and it's justifications, so you understand that I don't just regurgitate crazy leftist pinko propaganda that I found on the internet.
I belive the decision to go
Fri, 04/01/2011 - 23:10 — CaryCurmudgeonI belive the decision to go to war there was a mistake
I agree with you on this point. The fact is, when we leave Iraq and Afghanistan, we will leave behind democratic governments that won't last more than a couple of years. A people must be ready for democracy, and that form of government is not well-suited to a country that has 90%+ of their citizenry living in poverty and no middle class. Both of these countries will revert to some form of autocratic/tribal/clerical rule.
These countries have millions of people who live in abject poverty, in huts made of camel dung -- ideal recruiting ground for al quaeda. Even if we cross into Pakistan with armed troops and shoot every terrorist in sight, there are many more lining up to replace them. You can kill terrorists all day long, but you can't kill muslim extremism. It needs to someday die it's own death.
The human toll of these wars has been atrocious. Beyond that, I think that if we had poured the billions we spent on these wars into homeland security we would be a safer country.
Bracing now for incoming mortar shells :)
Mudge, you are probably correct
Sat, 04/02/2011 - 09:06 — Voice_of_Reason_But I think Iraq has a better chance long term but I suspect the Kurds will eventually split off and we will see Kurdistan. Iraq is relatively advanced. Afghanistan was George Bush's and now Obama's pipe dream unless economic development of natural resources is allowed to proceed in safety. That country still lives in the Middle Ages for the most part. We should of never attempted to try to form a unified government there.
Homeland Security in it present form is a joke for the most part because it is too broad in scope. More money to the CIA and FBI would have been a better alternative and we should stop the farce of security at airports since it is only a false sense of security. Metal detectors keep most of the nut-jobs away. Also I would do pre-screening of passengers with a provision for a more complete scan of flagged ones. Maybe I shouldn't say joke for the DHS, it actually scares me because of so much unchecked power in one department.