It looks like new and old Wake County school board members have found common ground when it comes to calling for a review of the district's zero tolerance discipline policies.
As noted in today's article, Keith Sutton and John Tedesco are among the board members who think that zero tolerance is resulting in too many suspensions and keeping too many students out of school. They're calling for a review that school board chairman Ron Margiotta agrees is needed.
"We have a very strong majority that wants to review the old policies for changes, including those on discipline," Margiotta said.
To show how serious he is about the issue, Margiotta said he spent part of his Christmas week up in northern New Jersey talking with school superintendents about how they handle discipline issues.
Sutton wants a 60- to 90-day suspension of zero tolerance policies while a review is conducted.
Tedesco wants to form a task force that would review the discipline policies.
Wake suspends a lot of students. In the 2008-09 school year, 20,686 short-term suspensions and 1,021 long-term suspensions were issued.
Click here for a list of suspensions by type. You'll have to click here within the 6000 series of board policies to cross reference.
You'll notice that non-compliance and fighting account for many of the short-term suspensions. Drug and alcohol possession and fighting account for many of the long-term suspensions.
Both Sutton and Tedesco say some of the problems can come when low-income students are assigned to more affluent schools where teachers aren't sure how to deal with them. Tedesco says it's a reason why community schools would work. Sutton said teachers need better training while keeping the diversity policy.
Wake's suspension policies have been an issue for years in the African American community because so many black students are suspended.
One of the complaints is that Wake considers a long-term suspension to run through the whole school year. State law says it can run anywhere from 11 days to the end of the school year.
Jason Langberg, an attorney for Advocates for Children's Services, said Wake has created an "invidious" school-to-prison pipeline. They dealt with the issue in a December issues brief.
Langberg complained that the old school board "rubber stamped" staff recommendations for long-term suspensions at appeal hearings.
Tedesco said he and the other new board members have been trying to find ways at the appeal hearings to keep students in school instead of sending them on the street.
A "hypothetical" example Tedesco gave is how policy automatically calls for long-term suspension for a student who is found possessing drugs or alcohol more than once. Those students would normally not be able to get placement in an alternative school.
Tedesco said in that kind of a situation they'd try to get the student placed in an alternative school or other environment to get an education.
"Don't kick the kid out or you're going to have him doing drugs every day and probably becoming a drug dealer," Tedesco said.
Both Tedesco and Sutton have a background working with at-risk young people. Tedesco works with Big Brothers Big Sisters while Sutton works for the N.C. Department of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention.
Sutton also used to be an advocate for students at suspension hearings when he was president of the Triangle Urban League.
"It's not being soft on crime," Sutton said. "It's thinking outside the box and being creative."
Comments
punish the victims
Thu, 12/31/2009 - 12:12 — cybercris2my 7th grader was attacked while working on a computer in the media center. He did not fight back. He was sent to ISS along with the instigator because under zero tolerance policies both parties to a fight are punished.
That is the glaring fault
Thu, 12/31/2009 - 12:28 — woodstockThat is the glaring fault of zero tolerance.
.
Wed, 12/30/2009 - 13:01 — Voice_of_Reason_.
ExYank - Why do lateral entry teachers fail?
Wed, 12/30/2009 - 11:13 — Voice_of_Reason_Is it maybe because the system is broke, not the kids?
Sure drill Sgt approaches don't work in today's schools, in fact they don't work well for smart kids in the military. Ever wonder why Army and Air Force training is so different? They do work for some, but diversified schools will not tolerate those methods used in a "broad brush" approach...or should they. Gaining the children's respect through competence, consistency, fairness, and motivation go a lot further.
From what I have been told by friends that went to teaching is that most lateral entry people are fed up with the system more than the kids.
BTW- my military views are based on my Air Force experience (24 years - including a lot of part-time Instructor time)
Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang
Tue, 12/29/2009 - 12:01 — TrailerParkGirlThat's me banging my head on the desk.
"Both Sutton and Tedesco say some of the problems can come when low-income students are assigned to more affluent schools where teachers aren't sure how to deal with them. Tedesco says it's a reason why community schools would work. Sutton said teachers need better training while keeping the diversity policy."
Tedesco - that's why we should take measures to begin addressing underlying issues - (hey there's a concept)
Sutton - we should continue to leave underlying issues unaddressed and simply better train teachers to deal with the ramifications of not addressing underlying issues - (ugh!)
Teacher Maturity
Tue, 12/29/2009 - 14:21 — willynillyThere are so many issues that overlap here. In many schools there is a high turnover rate. Then there is the ever present lack of teachers who are experienced. The work required for a new teacher (with lateral entry) to enter the teaching profession disuades many people from trying. Not to mention that the powers that be certainly do not want someone in their halls who has some grasp of what effectiveness and efficiency mean. Many of my fellow military friends could not stand the lack of organziation....we used to call it flying by the seat of your pants.
Anyway, when you have teachers who have little to no life experience.....probably from an affluent family....who have had no contact with students/children in the SES situation we often face in the classroom. Well, it does not take a rocket scientist to see what would happen there. This is from where many problems extend.
Your military friends
Wed, 12/30/2009 - 09:43 — exYank_WCprinexpect people to respond when they tell someone something... What are they going to do when some 12 or 16 year old simply laughs in their face.....tell them "give me 20" "hit them upside the head" No instead they will pass the problem to the AP or the principal.
Lateral entry people....I've hired a few....they may be very intelligent and caring.......most never make it a month.. If they are in their 40's, they simply cannot deal with today's kids and the general disrespect that comes from ALL socio economic classes and the fact that they get very little "downtime" during the day....or the fact they rarely interact with adults during the day or have an adult oriented workplace that is quiet and respectful.
Guess what affluent families don't want their kids in education.....they don't make enough money....if you ever hired teachers you would know that.
I agree... an intelligent "streetwise" teacher" with a sense of humor who can motivate the best and brightest and "relate and motivate" gangbangers is your best solution. Unfortunately they are few and far between.
The questions are why and how
Wed, 12/30/2009 - 11:42 — TrailerParkGirlWhy are 12 or 16 year olds simply laughing and why is there general disrespect from ALL SES classes and how does the community work together to change that?
IMO the answer is not "just better train the educators." It seems we also need to do a much better job of "training" the kids. The "training" the educators would come into play in sharing of effective methods to help "train" the kids. Yes, parents should be doing "training" and I think there are measures that could work on that as well, but in cases where parents aren't going to step up to the plate, the rest of the village is going to need to find a way. Even back in my day there were 12 and 16 year olds that just laughed, but none of them had attended my high high poverty ES school. We didn't do that because we'd been taught that more was expected of us than that (and not by having to drop and do 20).
"Why are 12 or 16 year olds
Wed, 12/30/2009 - 19:50 — user12345"Why are 12 or 16 year olds simply laughing and why is there general disrespect from ALL SES classes and how does the community work together to change that?”
TPG ... here are a couple of suggestions ... first is teacher safety … any hint of a threat or weapon, the kid needs to be removed permanently … that seems to be the “line” I noticed with my wife … the students know if they hit her or threaten her the game is over …and they try to get as close to the line as possible … teachers will abandon the schools if that line is crossed without consequences …
Next, it seems like the “losers” (my view not hers) in her classes are just disengaged … was it that they live on the streets or with a boyfriend and did not get a good night’s sleep?, was it they can not read and feel frustrated and want to take their anger out on the system, have they given up being a 9th grader for the third time and just have to wait out the time until they can leave or get kicked out … personally, I think if their learning disabilities (e.g. reading) were diagnosed and treated early there might be some hope … and it they had something to work toward (like a certificate / VoTech) there would be a reason for hope … as it is now they will end up in the same place making the same amount whether they finish HS or not … a skill and a job at the end of HS would help give them a goal and the teachers leverage to demand more … My wife says the ambitions of the ones that are the most trouble are to get pregnant, become a rap star or grow their drug sales all of which must seem more tangible than going on to college.
Finally, we need to separate out the alpha males and females that want to pull others down. They know they have to stay in the “system” until they are 16? and can demand a lot of attention until that time by acting out. Removing 2-3 from each class and sending them to an alternative school would 1) keep the next five in line and 2) unlock the other 20’s full potential.
We just need a comprehensive, uniform plan of incentives and punishments to move most of them across the finish line. I have no doubt my wife could get 90% of her kids (mostly F&Rs) to pass the EOCs by removing 1-3 kids per class and a adding a TA.
Kids today are not a new
Wed, 12/30/2009 - 10:13 — woodstockKids today are not a new species. The all still want structure, guidance, and acceptance...even if they do not readily admit it. If the principals and other administrators set the expectations for behavior -- including dress codes -- and ENFORCES them for students and staff alike, dramatic change can occur. In my experience, and those of my children, too often school staff are all talk and no action in terms of enforcing proper behavior. At the beginning of the year, administrators and teachers go though the motions of pointing out unaccpatable behaviors -- with little or no repercussions for the offenders -- and by the end of the year, they simply ignore it.
I know a woman who has dedicated her entire life to education, especially for at-risk students. She told me that when she enters a school she can tell within minutes whether or not it is a successful one by the demeanor of the staff and students in the hallways.
I remember reading an
Tue, 12/29/2009 - 12:13 — user12345I remember reading an article on how White teachers often misinterpret the body language and jesters of Black students and feel they are being threatened which leads to suspension… for example, I thought I remember that Black kids have a much closer “personal distance” similar to Latin Americans than Whites … so when Black kid “get in your face” (e.g. 18” for Blacks vs. White at 24”) it seems threatening to Whites. I am guessing that for Whites who have little contact with Blacks it must be scary.
Ugh. Matt, here you again
Tue, 12/29/2009 - 12:53 — jenmanUgh. Matt, here you again bringing up an interesting topic for discussion and then you have to end it with one of your stereotyping, judgmental insults. Perhaps you don't realize you are doing it, but just leave out the last sentence next time. You start off with a topic that invites discussion but then you close the door with the judgmental comment.
As for the topic itself, I think this has more to do with Socio-economic background and the community where the kid has been raised. There are huge differences within a racial group, depending on where and how they were raised and the values of their communities.
I've heard a few stories from people who have moved to NC from the north with school aged kids. Their kids southern teachers thought the children were disrespectful and rude because they didn't say ma'am and sir. Gee, I guess that for southerns who have little contact with northerners it must be scary!
You know
Tue, 12/29/2009 - 12:31 — TrailerParkGirlAt times, I really wish I could yank that race card away from you and shread it.
I've been much closer than 18" away from Black people and not felt "threatened" and I've been > 5 ft. away from a White person who'd lost self control and felt "threatened." It's not the distance, it's the attitude and how in control of themselves or not in control the person is no matter what they look like.
I'll bet you your wife can tell the difference between a student who is being threatening and one that is not no matter what their skin tone.
"I'll bet you your wife can
Tue, 12/29/2009 - 14:30 — user12345"I'll bet you your wife can tell the difference between a student who is being threatening and one that is not no matter what their skin tone.”
Absolutely ... that is my point.... She grew up in the projects, understands the body language and gestures, and can tell how to defuse a situation ... if a teacher does not have that background or has not received cultural training they might misunderstand the situation...
That is my point
Tue, 12/29/2009 - 15:08 — TrailerParkGirlI believe your wife also grew up White.
Therefore, the issue is not whether the teacher is White or not or the students are minority or not or distance factors, the issue is whether the teacher has an understanding of socioeconomic cultural differences.
Exactly ... many Whites
Tue, 12/29/2009 - 15:19 — user12345Exactly ... many Whites don't know about the 18" and take it the wrong way ... and they either learn through growing up in a diverse environment or being trained to understand what is going on ...
I don't think
Tue, 12/29/2009 - 23:44 — TrailerParkGirlI don't think it can be chalked up to 18". The interpretation of some of the language, jestures and actions will be the same whether 18", 24" or 36" apart. IMO what is going on is more than a 6" difference in personal space preference, which BTW I've never noticed.
From Teachers
Tue, 12/29/2009 - 00:54 — willynillyWhen a student repeats the same infraction over and over (school uniform violations) what do you do? Are you willing to suspend a student for that? If not.....then why is it a rule? Is there not some sort of escalation when a student does this? I have had students tell me, on a number of occasions, to shut the f--k up.....they were not disciplined AT ALL because it was a manifestation of their "disablity." If a student gets in a fight and because 4 ("insert race here") students were suspended already for fighting you cannot suspend this one because it would unbalance the suspensions? What silliness is this? AH yes, the educational system.
While Wake County may have
Mon, 12/28/2009 - 11:32 — AgentPierceWhile Wake County may have "a new school board" (despite the constipated protests of The N&O) .... the schools themselves are still staffed by PC-obsessed loonies ..... and on the state/federal level the Liberal crowd still rules.
For the "new board" to try and institute common-sense rules on discipline is a herculean task doomed to fail. Students who misbehave should be disciplined without regard for ethnic "quotas". That can't happen in today's PC society.
Vouchers are the answer. Leave "public education" to wallow in its own self-inflicted nitwitness.
Discretion
Mon, 12/28/2009 - 11:16 — Bob_SconceSo, one of the reasons that "zero tolerance" policies are popular is because they
remove discretion from the process -- if you do "X", then you get punishment "Y" regardless of the circumstances.
On the surface, discretion is a good thing. But, districts have found themselves sued with claims that "in the exercise of discretion, black students are being punished more than white students." And, that's a difficult claim to fight because you have to re-evaluate all the suspensions in a district. In a district as large as WCPSS, it's always possible to find a case where a white student did something similar to what a black student did, but received a lighter punishment. (And, vice-versa, but nobody looks for those cases.)
[Note: I'm not trying to advocate either way; just pointing why these policies exist.]
It's a lazy answer to problems
Mon, 12/28/2009 - 10:02 — Voice_of_Reason_Zero tolerance is the lazy way to apply most rules. It is easy on school administrators, but does not make it fair. The administrators should be able to look at mitigating circumstances and motives in tempering punishment. The Eagle Scout knife incident is a prime example of zero tolerance gone wrong - (was there any motive, intent, or even real danger?). The policy also makes it easy for kids to "frame" other kids to harass them. The same goes for extreme measures for drug use ( i.e. a child having an aspirin tablet is treated the same as a narcotic). In the case of real drug use, suspension does nothing to correct the problem. There many other ways of really dealing with the problem and getting help for these children.
I agree complete. Zero
Mon, 12/28/2009 - 21:02 — woodstockI agree complete. Zero tolerance policies are indeed for the lazy and for those with no powers of discernment. It is especially baffling why schools would adpot such policies conisdering they are staffed by professional educators, counselors, psychologists and administrators whose job it is to guide and instruct students. Zero tolerance removes common sense and judgement from the decision making process.
In ex-yank's case, I can understand why he support zero tolerance policies. That way he does not have to think too hard...or at all really.
I never said I supported Zero Tolerance
Wed, 12/30/2009 - 09:29 — exYank_WCprinWCPSS has basically been the same for the past 25 years with legal updates when the courts that restricted or expanded school authority or when "new" issues surface...gangs. persription drug abuse, etc. (Get a 20 year of Student Code of Conduct and compare!) If would behoove you (and others) to review these policies before you runoff at the mouth.
There are only certain offenses that REQUIRE Long Term suspension....2 or 1 fights (gang fights), dealing drugs, using a weapon against another student, assualting an educator, possessing a gun or other weapons and a few others. Which would YOU change and let the student back into school.....do you want this kid in your daughter's (or sons) class??
Other offenses allow discretion regarding the number of days suspension....but remember teachers will also criticize admin and it will affect THEIR morale if they believe they are not supported, i.e. kid suspended when the tell a teacher to F*** Off or absolutely refuse to follow teacher or admins directions even if it simply is "go to the office so we can talk."..........All this means that if you take "unusual circumstances" into consideration (and suspend 1 day instead of 2-3)you must then speak privately to the teacher because discipline records are confidential and while that may satisfy THAT teacher but does not stop the rumors from others that you are "too soft" on students. are not consistent in carrying out policies...not even to mention the NEXT TIME you suspend a student for the same ofense for 3 days the parents will scream at you because you were not FAIR to their student.
Contrary to your little wise-a** remark a great deal of thought goes into each and every discipline incident by ALL principals.
"Contrary to your little
Wed, 12/30/2009 - 16:21 — woodstock"Contrary to your little wise-a** remark a great deal of thought goes into each and every discipline incident by ALL principals."
LOL Really? In my experience, too often the MO was to either ignore what was happening (disrespectful behavior, cursing, bullying, threats, etc.) or to to follow the path of least resistance and punish everyone who was in the vincinity of an incident.
Please...you distort so mumch
Mon, 12/28/2009 - 19:44 — exYank_WCprinCONSISTENCY IS FAIR...........that's why you treat everyone the same....the Eagle Scout should have known better.....someone could have taken the knife and harmed someone...yes even in his car because kids go to lunch and visit their cars during the day.....that is the reason why you punish kids who bring weapons even if they don't use them against someone else. A weapon's charge is usually a 10 day suspension....6 inch knife, box cutters, razor blades, etc. less than 3 inch knife is less. Using a weapon or threatening someone and you are GONE......such actions CANNOT BE TOLERATED in the schools. As far as "framing"...that's why you have admin to investigate such charges...I often thought I should have been a police detective for the number of daily investigations I performed ....usually though involving sexual harssment/offense one of the newer "PC" categories. Please...children with aspirin don't get charged the same as a narcotic.....why in trhe world would you say such a stupid thing except to once again make an emotional appeal to the ignorant and uninformed..........I agree about drug use EXCEPT after 2 busts for under the influence or using.......dealing is probably involved but more difficult to catch...so they need to be out of the mainstream schools into an alternate school..... you know...how many times does it take to learn a lesson....???? I guess it depends on how tolerate your parents are and GUESS WHAT....60's parents were among the worst..................for everything.....clueless!
Finally mitigating circumstances can sometimes be considered...but what you must all remember is that principals make decisions in glass houses....EVERYONE (parents and students) know what happened and what the punishment was.....since you can't talk about the incident or punishment even to the OTHER PARENT if 2 students were involved....you are in a NO WIN situation....yes you can temper a punishment +/1 a few days suspension....but usually NOT THE ACTION OF A SUSPENSION........If not....... parents are calling the Superintendent, city council members, lawyers, newspapers, or even the Governor...you think I'm kidding.......saying the principal didn't treat my child fairly.
I once again say you folks havew NO CLUE.....
LOL Gosh, "once
Tue, 12/29/2009 - 10:31 — woodstockLOL Gosh, "once again" you alone stand above all the cluelessness. You are one amazing person...just ask yourself.
Hmm...
Mon, 12/28/2009 - 20:08 — Bob_SconceSo, in all the time, have you ever been in the situation where the zero-tolerence policy said "you have to give this kid punishment X," and you thought the punishment was too harsh?
At my high school, students were not (and, I believe, still are not) allowed to drive cars to school (after an unfortunate incident in the 1970s where one student ran over, and killed, another student on school property). The mandatory punishment for driving to school (even if you parked off school property) was suspension. A friend of mine was suspended when, after an unexpectedly short dentist appointment, he drove back to school to catch his last class, instead of just driving home. That "Zero-Tolerence" policy led to a clearly wrong result.
Personally, I don't care about a swiss-army knife in a kid's car. Sure, he could go out and get it at any time. But, he could also go out and get a lug wrench. And, you don't punish people for bringing lug wrenches to school.
Bob's right
Tue, 12/29/2009 - 00:12 — Voice_of_Reason_I was trained to kill with a metal ink pen in the military. Are we to ban ink pens as weapons? I do know one thing, I went to school with a knife in my pocket almost every day, so did many of my classmates. We also played mumblypeg, a knife throwing game, in the playground. Guess what....nobody stabbed anyone...go figure.
Now a lug wrench, that's a weapon of mass destruction in the wrong hands. ROFLOL Bob.
And yes, OK I did stretch the facts a bit on my post to make my point; but the point is valid.
"I went to school with a
Tue, 12/29/2009 - 10:36 — woodstock"I went to school with a knife in my pocket almost every day, so did many
of my classmates. We also played mumblypeg, a knife throwing game, in
the playground."
I had exactly the same experience...this past weekend in discussions with my family about this topic, I mentioned this very thing.
We like to think we are always progressing, but I am not convinced we are.
You forget
Tue, 12/29/2009 - 09:20 — exYank_WCprinwe are dealing with middle and high school students....not adults who were in the military (I was 11B RVN) or who have been out of high school for 20 years and their minds are "clouded" by rational thinking that most hs students have not yet developed.
If you went to school with a knife in your pocket (and commented on lug wenches) you are showing your age.........most of the "troubled" kids we deal with today would not have been in your school and today they use knives and guns..thankfully most often outside school. And yes if you use an "ink pen" to stab another student (yes it does happen) you are suspended and possibly Long Termed if the injury is severe enough.
Bottom line.... if you were a high school student before the mid 90's you were in a time warp......today it's a different ball game...what I wouldn't give to have students from the 70's or 80's.....
"...today it's a different
Tue, 12/29/2009 - 10:48 — woodstock"...today it's a different ball game...what I wouldn't give to have students from the 70's or 80's..."
So, what caused this radical transformation in behavior by so many students? People in general aren't different, but the way many choose to live sure is. Why do you think that is?
Fortunately, there are still many students today who would fit nicely into a classroom from 1975.
Well..
Tue, 12/29/2009 - 12:56 — Bob_SconceSo, I agree that strong punishment is appropriate when students endanger other students or repeatedly disrupt the school environment. Unfortunately, suspension/expulsion is the strongest thing that the schools can dole out. In many cases, the best thing is probably just to call the cops.
No matter what policy the district adopts, it's going to make some mistakes -- cases when it metes out a punishment to a student that most people would agree is inappropriate. I think the board is concerned that the district is making too many of those mistakes under the current policy. I hope that as the board considers the policy, it actually examines the suspensions that have happened. It may be that WCPSS' policy is appropriate and other districts' policies are too lax.
Ditto what Bob said
Tue, 12/29/2009 - 13:20 — Voice_of_Reason_BTW- When I was young we had a thing called reform school for "bad kids"; I believe it was a little worse (more like military school) than "Juvie" which is now a badge of honor in some circles of society. And why don't we utilize our Alternative Schools a bit more. Removing the "Bad Apples" out of mainstream education should be the first step to reforming these children; and I am not talking about suspension.
And I don't think most kids have changed that much, only the prejudice caused by the media. That being said, I do recognize the breakdown of families in our society has magnified the pool of problem kids. The later being an issue which was caused a lot by the "easy-out" liberal policies of today. It's amazing when you throw money at a societal problem the problem gets worse not better....go figure.
So...
Tue, 12/29/2009 - 14:16 — Bob_SconceI did a lot of volunteer work with (mostly suburban) high school kids from the late '80s to about 2000. And, sure there were changes -- every generation has to distance itself from the previous one and try to shock the adults in some new way. But, by and large, the kids are still the same. Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.
The big changes are external -- it's a lot easier to get drugs, society's message about sex has changed from one of shame to one of permissiveness, there's a greater tendency to excuse bad behavior, and more parents are divorcing. None of these is a healthy trend for teenagers.
"A "hypothetical" example
Mon, 12/28/2009 - 09:53 — user12345"A "hypothetical" example Tedesco gave is how policy automatically calls for long-term suspension for a student who is found possessing drugs or alcohol more than once. Those students would normally not be able to get placement in an alternative school. Tedesco said in that kind of a situation they'd try to get the student placed in an alternative school or other environment to get an education."
It is small policy decisions that make the entire process fail Ultimately, the violent ones need to go to jail, the unmanageable ones need to go to alternate schools, the ones on the edge need to be pulled back in the boat and we need to try to prevent as many as possible from getting in the situation in the first place (e.g. early reading intervention, identifying learning, speach, and visual problems which can lead to frustration and acting out in the classroom).
Alternative Schools?
Mon, 12/28/2009 - 21:59 — klanders65What are they doing for alternative schools? I thought they closed Richard Milburn Alternative school. I am not aware of what they are doing now with the students who are long-term suspended. I think this is the first year it is closed. I bet we see a huge increase in dropouts this year.
These students need more
Mon, 12/28/2009 - 09:25 — red_balloonThese students need more help and/ or discipline, not less of it. Suspensions are not the answer. However, neither can disruptive students be allowed to remain in a regular classroom. While I am glad there is agreement between the board members on the importance of this issue, I am hopeful that whatever solution is devised it will allow the non-problematic students to get a better quality education.
Excuse me,
Mon, 12/28/2009 - 19:10 — exYank_WCprinby suspending disruptive students you do let the non-problemic students get an education...it's called TRIAGE...because that's what your basic school administrator does day in day out..... If parents ignore the basic responsibility of disciplining or teaching discipline to their children (and believe me that cuts across ALL soc-economic classes) then the schools must pick up the slack....THAT is the cold harsh reality.
Still Around?
Tue, 12/29/2009 - 12:17 — ego7601I've been out of school for a little while, but does WCPSS still have In-School Suspension (ISS)? I know there were problematic kids (fighting, alcohol, etc) that were sent to the ISS classroom and there was a no-nonsense teacher that would make them do their school work in silence. It seemed to turn many kids around. I think this could be a simple solution for non-weapon offenses.
This will allow the non-problematic students to get their education and not just throw the troublemakers out of school to sit at home or hang out on the streets. This will also allow some kids to keep up (or even catch up) with their peers instead of falling behind, failing and eventually dropping out of frustration.
I was wondering this too
Tue, 12/29/2009 - 12:30 — jenmanI was wondering this too (about ISS). We had "the hole" and the kids were in there for varying amounts of time. Some I swear might as well have been there permanently, some were in for a week or more, some for a day or two and even some for just the rest of the class period.
My son comes home every once in a while with stories about certain kids causing a disruption in one of his classes. He tells me that the beginning of class is often "wasted time" because Mr. L has to deal with a few problem kids. I've always wondered why he doesn't just say "go to the hole!" like my teachers did. :-)
I'd much rather these kids have ISS than be free to roam around all day getting into trouble.
Good for them
Mon, 12/28/2009 - 08:23 — Dadof3There have been countless national school news stories where zero-tolerance creates greater problems than it helps, like the Eagle Scout who had a pocket knife in his glove compartment and was automatically suspended. It's silly and I'm glad to see our board taking the lead here.
Countless stories????
Mon, 12/28/2009 - 19:02 — exYank_WCprinYou probably heard that on Fox News which seems to thrive on pointing out these "incidents" as if they were common occurances. I watch them when I "workout" in the morning. In reality the Eagle Scout incident was probably 1 in1-2,000 occurance. ((That based on the fact that I either directly or indirectly (supervised an AP) in over 2 - 3,000 short term - 10 days or less) and recommended over 100 long term suspensions to the Superintendent.)) You quote them as if WCPSS does this routinely and you're glad the board is "taking the lead here." Since all suspensions cannot be discussed by the school system unless it goes to court you only hear the parent's side or the lawyers in this case...so what do you REALLY KNOW??? Not much...so please don't speculate about WCPSS when those writing advocate only for the student. Most students and parents think school admin spend all day dealing wioth disicpline. In reality it is less than 10% unless it's a really bad day........
Ahhhh, someone needs a hug
Tue, 12/29/2009 - 05:08 — Dadof3I just got cable today, as a completing gift to our foray into 21st century electronics, and I do not expect to watch Fox any more or less than CNN. I'll be happy to report back otherwise, but I'm not a big fan of Hannity, O'Reilly or Beck; their rhetoric is more damaging then helping (also for Olberman et al) I'm the boring type that is more likely to watch Discovery, History Channel (drives the kids NUTS when we're traveling). or Bugs Bunny cartoons. (Still the best.) I didn't really go on the tear that you did; so please, have fun with your travels; I'm glad my quick post inspired your muse.
Someone else nailed it, an over-simplistic policy stems from a lack of leadership. That's a generalized statement but I've seen rule-by-policy in failing organizations, whereas a guidance with flexibility and discretion for each situation is usually best. For example, does membership in the Scouts diminish having a knife? As opposed to a prior record with the Crips? I would hope so. Public schools are a legal minefield, and yet, zero tolerance is not the answer.
Now then, I will show my not-to-hard to glean leanings with this www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110004533 reference. James Taranto has focused, often daily, with news stories under the heading "Zero Tolerance Watch" Each is ridiculous, as is such a mindless policy.
One more comment
Tue, 12/29/2009 - 09:36 — exYank_WCprinso if a cheerleader gets drunk at the prom you call her dad and say...gee take her home and let her sleep it off....."her embarassment" is sufficient punishment.....?? "she's really a good girl and "this has never happened before..."instead of "Under the Inlfuence..10 days and drug school??? Even if admin knows (and her father doesn't) she's on the fast track...parties every weekend and more.........
"over simplistic"?? read the Student Code of Conduct you get every year from WCPSS and then read the law cases that support each item...Search and Seizure....student rights etc......
"flexibility and discretion?" you are dealing with 11-18 year olds not adults...if you think you deal with them the same....go substitute in a high school for a day or 2...(not Green Hope/Panther Creek...most principals view them as a countryclubs...except for the hassle the parents probably give the principals)
That's better
Tue, 12/29/2009 - 10:15 — Dadof3I'm not the enemy, so I appreciate the less shrill tone.
Based on my experiences with the Wake Co. principals and school staff, I'm very comfortable with how they've made decisions and exercised their discretion. That said, "zero tolerance" remains too simplistic an approach, for which we apparently have consensus at the board. I'm glad to read the policy code has nuances, however, I want my local schools free to make the appropriate decision, and not to burden them with a maze of conditionals where they need to consult an overly complex checklist.
As for your hypotheticals, no offense, parsing the "what ifs" can become tedious and tends to devolve to more a matter of what flag you salute than what solutions you can develop.
I got to ask, though, what's up with all the point of ellipsis? When did ending sentences become stodgy and too formal?