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The WakeEd blog is devoted to discussing and answering questions about the major issues facing the Wake County school system. How much will the new Democratic majority on the school board do to undo the changes made by Republicans since 2009? How will the new choice-based assignment system work now that the socioeconomic diversity policy has been eliminated? How will Superintendent Tony Tata lead the state's largest district through more budget cuts and possible layoffs? How will the board respond to growth and the school construction program?

WakeEd is maintained by The News & Observer's Wake schools reporter, T. Keung Hui. While Keung posts information and analysis on the issues, keep us posted on your suggestions, questions, tips and what you're doing to cope with the changes in Wake's schools.

Reviewing middle school and high school grading practices

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It looks like staff managed to defuse concerns school board members had about potential changes to grading practices.

As noted in today's article, staff explained to board members that they plan on bringing in parents, students and possibly the business community into the review that teachers are conducting of grading in middle schools and high schools.

Even though they want to hire education consultant Ken O'Connor, they stressed they're not telling teachers they need to adopt recommendations such as not reducing grades for late work or cheating. They said they're simply trying to get teachers talking about the issue.

"We can’t empahasize enough that there aren’t answers that have been predetermined," said Ruth Steidinger, a senior director for secondary education.

Board members were non-commital about staff's plan to hire O'Connor to speak with teachers at $6.000 a day. Steidinger stressed to the board that no contract has been signed yet.

A big focus on Tuesday is that grading is inconsistent right now. They handed out this sheet as an example of how students at the same school could get different grades based on which teacher they get.

"If we want our grades to communicate student achievement to students and parents, then how confident are we that the grades our students receive in middle school and high school are consistent and accurate?" said Ken Branch, a senior director for secondary education. "That they’re meaningful and they’re supportive of learning."

It will be interesting seeing how the review will go once non-educators are brought into the mix. Branch and Steidinger said the plan during the 2009-10 school year is to talk with parents and students before proposing any changes.

Supt. Del Burns suggested also speaking with students who've dropped out.

School board members suggested also having the board advisory councils get involved.

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exactlly my point..

"What are Principals for..?"...they too want to keep their jobs and if they are told from the county that this is what the county "wants" then the teachers are told how things will be. Teachers are not given the issue as if it is even up for discussion. It is more like.."this is the "new" approach" and we have no say so. When they do ask for opinions, it is just to be nice and make us think we have a say so, when in actuality they do not listen anyway...so why did they even ask?..IF they even ask, that is how it goes. The flaw started when the State wanted to raise test scores...somehow they must think that making a kid get a higher grade than they deserve will make us look better. Absolutely right in that this does no good in the end.

smoke and mirrors

I am a teacher and was in the meetings about grading practice changes. It was a discussion that had only one side: this is going to happen whether or not you see the many problems with this approach. One of the teachers Ken Branch put in front of us was a math teacher from Daniels. She now makes each test worth 40 points. If you get them all right, you get a 100 (A). If you get half of them right, you get an 80 (C). If you get none right, you get a 60 (F). You see, no zero! Sorry, as a parent, I don't want my child to only get half the questions correct and think that's proficient! Also, as far as level 3/level 4 in elementary school- I fell out of my chair to find out a level 3 is anything above 70%! In our house, we want above 93% every time. It's what Wake County doesn't want you to know. Let's dumb it down so our numbers look good. Kids will be "passing" but won't know anything. If the parents don't know what's going on, if we make it sound good (like they did in today's article), no one will know any better- until it's time to compete in the real world!

grading math

I am a math teacher. I have been for over a decade. I have noticed that non-math people seem to think that a math grade would be objective. I have taught with people who seemed to want to fail kids who didn't do problems the way they wanted them done, although they did them correctly. I've also taught with people who made up totally arbitrary rules, like that you have to circle the answer and put your name in the top left corner, and must label the axes at the point of the arrows, etc. When the most brilliant kids didn't followed those rules, it would count against them same as if they couldn't do the math. Then teachers would give extra credit for bringing in tennis balls to put on the bottom of chairs so kids who know nothing get higher grades than brilliant kids who don't circle their answers. This is common. It is not rare. As kids come into my math classes, I can't tell who is the best and brightest from looking at their past grades. I can't even tell who behaves.

 One of my kids had a math teacher who I am sorry to say is like many math teachers who I went to college with or have worked with. He wanted only a certain kind of kid to succeed. His grading system was designed to filter out all but the one kind of kid he thinks should be let through. His tests would be comprised of problems that "tricked" kids. You know how some flowers look like a bee, so the bee is fooled, etc. He used that practice to create his tests. There are patterns in math. He'd teach the patterns, like how to factor x^2 - y^2. Then his tests would have problems that looked like that but had + instead of minus. When I realized this, I was able to tutor my daughter to look for and expect to be tricked. She got filtered out to the top. But, I thought about how if I were teaching this class, different kids would have come out on top. He set up the tests to trick the kids and only a few got good grades.

 I've had kids come to me and tell me that one of their other teachers failed them. I know some of the people I work with don't know how to compute grades and some don't even try. They just grade by their impression. When some of my best math students have failed other classes (very dark skinned black students in every case, but maybe that is not relevant) I've gone to the teacher's lounge and struck up a conversation about how the student is one of my best math students. I have to let these teachers save face. They run right back and change the grade.

 Ken Branch is right. No one would want to shine the light of day on how grading is now done. We have no way of knowing from grades which kids can know the material. Go ahead and grade on behavior and work ethic, but keep it separate. Right now, many many teachers give good grades for good behavior even when kids know nothing. And many many many teachers don't even know how they are computing their grades. Grades are completely meaningless right now.

 I totally support Ken Branch, and I am a teacher. 

Surprised?

Absolutely not!  This teacher says it all about the wcpss,

"this is going to happen whether or not you see the many problems with this approach."

JUST like FYR!  JUST like 25,000+ reassigned in the next 3 years regardless of the # Horace Tart thinks it is!  And, regardless of what "has been mentioned before" if they don't return kids to their "base" regardless of the Feb. app. process I'll be VERY surprised!

I am another teacher that

I am another teacher that agrees with the statement that WCPSS is going to do it whether you agree with it or not.  I have always had this impression, esp. when it comes to "new" things.  YOU WILL do this whether you like it or not!!!!    We want help so bad!  We are drowning! 

I'm drowning..

Listen,..we want to fail who we want. We want to grade any way we want. I like grading for posture. Now, they are trying to make us grade in some way where someone might be able to tell which kids can have learned.... I'm drowning... such a pretty little girl...she's liquidated me...

We DO understand

but with ALL the respect I can muster, and I have NOTHING but respect for all the teachers, YOU GUYS & GALS have to stage a revolt of your own to be heard.  We'll help anyway we can, but we are fighting your cult leaders from this side of the fence.  NOW is the time!

What are principals for?

My first thought was "Shouldn't the teachers, principals, and departments at the high schools be able to tackle this problem themselves?" And then I wondered- are any teachers backers of having this consultant come in? Who is pushing for this? It strikes me as inconsistent with what a classroom teacher may want, and as inconsistent with the values that the student's future employers would want. The problem, if it is a significant issue within a school, sounds like a managment problem. The Department Chair or Principal should ask the teachers who have widely different scales to collaborate on expectations, with the highest expectations yielding the highest grades. But that's common sense, and that approach appears to be increasingly uncommon.

Game of Clue

I must say chosing the game of Clue for the handout example is an interesting choice.

Based on the clues, I say Mr. Butler killed the students' long-term chance of success in the workplace with lack of consequences for not doing work assigned.

I don't take issue with encouraging consistency of grading practices, but it should be at the highest common denominator, not lowest. Not reducing grades for late work or cheating -- are you kidding? If they go down that route, those kids will have a rude awakening when they hit colleges with serious honor codes (or do those not exist anymore?) and workplaces with serious Ethics programs (I know those exist).

grades

As a math teacher, I have been horrified over the years I have been teaching at how some other teachers grade. The issue is not just should we fail the kids who don't do the homework. I was in the teacher's lounge one day and an English teacher was puzzling over her grades. To save time and get ahead of the game, she computed her grades early and had them done, then gave one more quiz. She averaged that quiz grade in with the final averages (adding the two and dividing by 2) and couldn't figure out why some of her best students had bad grades. They did poorly on this little quiz. It was half their grade. She didn't understand that.

 I have kids in WCPSS and look at SPAN. I can tell by looking at my kid's SPAN grades that half their teachers don't understand how the grades work mathematically. It is no surprise to me after all these years of teaching. One of my kids' teachers said that parent signatures on homework will count 2% or something, at open-house. (Yes, this is high school. Neither my son nor I could believe it and I didn't stoop so low as to sign his homework. This reduced his A to a B.) She didn't categorize different types of assignments, but is using different scales. SPAN computes percents and it doesn't matter that she is using different scales. It is giving them all the same weight. A parent signature is counting the same as the mid-term. I am sure she doesn't know. Another one of my kids' teachers said these class notes would count 30% but then only collected this one time. I am sure she doesn't realize that one day's worth of notes is now accounting for nearly a third of their grade and more by far than any test.

I have seen my with own kids and observed teachers I work with, just meaningless things being assigned. My son actually brought home a 50 by 50 word search one day and was supposed to find a list of words in it. He got so frustrated, I sat down to help him. I couldn't find the words. (this was elementary school). He was afraid to not complete his homework and we had spent more than an hour on this. I called the teacher. She told me that program wouldn't use her whole list because it was too long so not all the words were in there. This is just one of many examples I have witnessed as a parent and with other teachers in my building. This example stood out because I didn't know what to do. It got harder and harder to tell him he had to do all homework. I couldn't believe this. I've seen teachers grade down for not labeling the axes the arbitrary way they say to label it, etc. I've seen teachers give kids who gave the best speaches 0s because they didn't turn in their index cards--while kids who used index cards the way she required and gave terrible speeches got As. 

And I think that businesses would rather hire those kids who knew their speeches and gave good performances, than the kids who followed the teacher's directions but could hardly speak and didn't know what they were talking about.  If businesses knew what the grades meant, they would not want the kids with high grades.... kids who would sit for hours doing a word search where the words are not even in there... or who don't know their speech but have the cards written correctly...

I completely support Ken Branch. Right now we have no way of knowing which kids have mastered anything. Behavior is important but grade it separately.

Someone should do a study of how messed up the grades are because high school teachers don't understand SPAN and how it works. Not that they understood how they graded before, but now the grades are actually being mathematically computed. I can see from my kids' grades that me not signing the homework paper is the same weight as the midterm test. A practice vocabulary test counts the same as the final exam. 

And some schools have the no zero thing. A kid at Wakefield where they have that (I think) might get a B whereas a kid at Millbrook where they don't have that would fail for the exact same work because he didn't turn in some class notes that ended up being a third of his grade. 

 That Clue example need to include C. Mustard, who thought he was using the math dept's grade weights, but didn't understand SPAN. So, he scaled his tests, classwork, etc. according to the scale but classified them all the same in SPAN. Then SPAN recomputed them all on the same scale and homework counted  the same as tests. More than half my kids' teachers are using SPAN this way. It needs to be in the example. If a kid gets a zero on that one day that the class notes are collected, after the teacher set class notes to be 30%, then 30% of the grade will be a zero.

 This is common. It is not rare. 

I agree with klanders

I totally agree and saw first hand last year as we transitioned to 6th grade at Apex .  Where my child was given 0's because her notebook was not in the perfect sequential order as prescribed by her Language Arts teacher and that was like 30% of their total grade, where she got a 0  by a teacher on Current Event articles because she deemed them not to be current events.  Because the teacher gave them candy for rewards (although that is against the wake system), and where not putting your name on the right hand side top corner in ink, got points taken off.  Every child will not fit into those "perfection" molds - you can't make them - but causing a bright child (their words not mine), to get D's in subjects, because that child was not allowed to go to their locker and retreive homework or didn't turn in homework on time.  And turning in homework a day late got ya only 50%.  Or grading down because the planners were not signed, or because the reading sheet forgot to be signed. \

These teachers are wayyy too strict on the minutia - when they should be focused helping the child do better - not grading them down for being unorganized, forgetful, or not absorbing all the info they need in a 30 minute class.  (Well in general being 11 years old). The grading system does not make sense.  My child would make B&C's then get a D on the report card.  Span was not updated on a timely basis - so we didn't see those D's coming.  Still trying to figure out that grading system.

Why not? I mean we just

Why not? I mean we just have money to burn.

If they spend $ on this when we are firing teachers and cutting classes offered in schools, then there are not enough words in the dictionary to describe their stupidity!

??

If "They want to hire education consultant Ken O'Connor", and "they stressed they're not telling teachers they need to adopt recommendations such as not reducing grades for late work or cheating," then this just means they are not telling teachers to do this YET..but it is surely coming!! What a crock! The school board better stay involved in this and maybe even bring in some State Senators with their opinions as well. They SAY they will get "feedback" before making an implementation but that is hard to believe as well. They already have their minds made up and would have done it all without regard of other opinions if this issue had been allowed to have been kept in the dark.

Why can they not see that Wake County is behind in regards to this trend...other districts that have done this kind of thing are NOW GOING BACK to what really works!

what really works?

what really works for what? 

 The dept of E&R did a study of middle school grades and they are highly correlated with race. Level II Asians get As while Level IV black students are getting Cs. What does grading now really work for? For keeping the social order the way we want it? We can't tell a thing about what grades mean. Everyone complains about how the standardized tests aren't good enough to tell us who knows what. But there is nothing else. Why not have grades tell us who knows the material, and have a separate way to tell us who has bad work habits, etc.

I know that teachers really don't like it when kids learn in ways that they have not approved. If kids learn the material, but their notebook is messy and the teacher thinks that only people with organized notebooks should be learning, they will say the kid is really smart and that is why he was able to learn without organizing his notebook.  But he needs a bad grade because only people with organized notebooks should get good grades. There is no possibility that the kid learned some way without organizing his notebook, and that would have been just some extra meaningless task for him. The teacher can't account for why he learned the material. But it is irrelevant. All she cares about is whether or not that notebook is organized. He must go to the bottom track and be taken out of challenging classes. No business would want to ever hire him so it is fine that we set him on the track to dropping out. It is really working. We are driving all sorts of kids out, and keeping them from getting educated. But we've got standards. And our standards are working!

 

 

 

not hard to defuse concerns

not hard to defuse concerns of a mediocre panel (eR)....most of whom will be leaving come October anyway.

and of course BoE recommended BAC's, easier to stack the deck in their favor that way, BAC rep's are chosen by BoE, don't you know..

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About the blogger

T. Keung Hui covers Wake schools.

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