Should Wake County middle schools and high schools be patrolled by armed police officers?
As noted in today's article, Advocates for Children's Services, a project of legal Aid of N.C., issued a report Thursday saying Wake should reconsider paying local law enforcement agencies to provide school resource officers. In addition, the ACS wants to ban or at least limit the use of guns and Tasers by the SROs.
While not calling for a ban on the use of pepper spray, they do want limits on their usage as well.
Other recommendations include providing better training for SROs, encouraging schools to use alternatives such as community service rather than involving the legal system and not arresting students for breaking minor school offenses.
ACS also wants stronger rules to prevent SROs from interviewing students without parents present and to require them to only search students, their cars and their lockers with probable cause. The gray area of schools allows SROs more latitude than dealing with students off campus.
ACS provides legal representation to some students who are arrested.
ACS also brings up the financial element of Wake paying for the SROs at a time of such tight budgets.
"Education is essential to a young person’s ability to think critically, interact with others considerately, and participate in our democracy fully," according to the report. "The presence of armed law enforcement officers in Wake County’s middle and high schools is a misguided approach that is financially unsound and educationally imprudent."
School board chairman Ron Margiotta said that in an ideal world they wouldn't need armed police officers on campus. But he says they need to confront issues such as gang problems on school campuses.
Comments
Source:
Sat, 02/05/2011 - 11:38 — woodstockThe fact:
I am not saying we should
Mon, 02/07/2011 - 03:11 — jeffrey1I am not saying we should prevent them from driving, but the reality is, that is a whole hell of a lot more dangerous than sitting in school.
Of course they are. Look, there is danger everywhere. You can get hit by a bus crossing the street, but we learn at a very young age to look both ways. You can be killed or seriously injured in a car wreck, and the car industry has responded by building cars that are infinitely more safer than they were years ago.
You put on your seatbelt, knowing that you could drive for many years without ever needing it. We have flotation devices on airplanes despite the fact that they have been rarely needed througout the history of aviation.
The point is, we take reasonable safety measures when confronted with the possibility of danger. As long as those measure aren't prohibitively expensive, or detract from our quality of life, then we generally accept them.
I wish we lived in a time when the thought of a Columbine tye incident was not even on our radar, but the fact is, we do. SROs carrying guns is not expensive and does not detract from our quality of life. I hope they are NEVER needed, but want them there in the unlikelihood they are.
The point is, we take
Mon, 02/07/2011 - 08:26 — woodstockThe point is, we take reasonable safety measures when confronted with the possibility of danger.
"Reasonable" is the operative word. Without that important consideration that kind of thinking leads to things like banning smoking in public parks? I don't want to be that safe.
Frankly I do not want the government protecting me or my family from EVERY POSSIBILITY of danger. For one reason that is not possible. Before Columbine and 911 most people felt safe... because they were. So what do we do, we react. But I guarantee something awful will happen in the future that we will be unprepared for and we will react again and each time we snip away at our quality of life and the freedoms we enjoy. We accept those awful things as our new reality and I am not sure they are. We can learn from them, but we do not always have to react in such heavy handed ways.
2-3 SRO's per thousands of
Mon, 02/07/2011 - 08:30 — Andrew952-3 SRO's per thousands of students hardly seems a heavy handed approach.
Who are you so afraid of at
Mon, 02/07/2011 - 08:37 — woodstockWho are you so afraid of at your school?
" a project of legal Aid of
Sat, 02/05/2011 - 10:53 — user12345" a project of legal Aid of N.C."
These guys are as stupid as Woodstock ... they think that if there are no police officers to report crime that it won't occur .... that the villain is the police for keeping citizens safe while the bad guy is the kid beating up another kid ... we owe it to teachers and our children to keep them safe from criminals ... schools are just little cities that need the same service like law enforcement.
The real problem is that we don't live in the 1950's anymore and the "lock'em up zero tolerance" game will only lead to many kids being in jail just like it has led to the US having the highest % of adults in jail ... as a society, we need to be more creative and innovative to adapt to the post 1950's world.
So our schools are
Mon, 02/07/2011 - 09:04 — woodstockSo our schools are crime-ridden? Please show me the evidence of that. If they are maybe the BoE needs to bring back the zero tolerance policy.
I'm In Favor of SRO's
Fri, 02/04/2011 - 20:40 — chaboard...but they should be paid for by the police department or locality, NOT by the school system. We absolutely cannot afford that luxury from the school budgets.
And parents should not be forced to put their kids in the presence of a handgun. As long as school attendance is compulsory SRO's should not be packing.
Huh?
Sat, 02/05/2011 - 13:20 — Bob_SconceWhy not? They're forced to put their kids in the presence of all sorts of things -- teachers, other students, books, pencils, papers, cinderblocks, etc.... It's not like a handgun carried by a resource officer is going to jump out and shoot a kid all by itself. And, it's not like there's an epidemic of resource officers going on shooting sprees in public high schools.
I recognize that some people have some sort of primal dislike for firearms -- we saw that at work when the E.Wake Principal barred a student from competing in a 4H shooting tournament. However, that dislike isn't something that should be used to make policy.
Heck, shooting is a sanctioned high school sport in some parts of the country. See, e.g., http://www.piaa.org/sports/rifle/default.aspx.
and what happens when a
Sat, 02/05/2011 - 01:02 — CaryCurmudgeonand what happens when a student shows up who is packing?
I agree with CC, oddly
Sat, 02/05/2011 - 11:09 — Andrew95I agree with CC, oddly enough. It's not really guns I have the problem with, it's the availability. A trained officer with a handgun is no danger to anyone who isn't threatening harm to anyone else. We can never guarantee that no student has a handgun, and until we can, the officer needs one.
Police Officer in the Schools
Fri, 02/04/2011 - 11:40 — snappy52I am a retired police officer as of this year. I worked in the Police department for 21 years and spent seven of those years as the SRO at our city high school. During that time I spent my time teaching a law enforcement and had many of my students go on to have police or military careers. When I was not teaching I was helping faculty attending sporting events for security and also carrying a detectives case load in the community. While I was there I dealt with every situation and criminal act that happens out in the community. The kids at my school were between the ages of 15 and 19. And you not only deal with the kids but their parents who are a lot older and some times alot more aggressive and unreasonable. My high school was middle income and never considered a high risk school. While I was there I kids were arrested and charged with everything including the shooting and murder of my friend and fellow Officer Ronald Wood. Do not kid yourselves and think police are not needed in our schools. Bullying, drugs, sex assaults, assualts, vandalism, smoking and traffic offenses would probably double or triple at a school where the school officer left the school to go back to the street. Not to mention that the Officers on the street would be constantly going to the school to attend to their problems during the day taking them off the street for extended periods of time. You would also lose the very important effect that the close connection between the Police Dept. and the school enjoy with an officer in the school. Working in the school for me was harder than working on the SWAT team and K9 division due to the caseload and number of persons wanting my time and attention. Just this week alone a school principal was shot and killed at school. Do not kid yourselves, officers are desperatly needed in every middle school and high school and need to carry every bit of equipment to protect themselves, staff, and innocent kids that they would carry on the street. I am very proud to have been in the schools and that I was able to make a dent in serious crimes that take place in the schools and by the kids outside of school.
If we "desperately need
Fri, 02/04/2011 - 17:03 — woodstockIf we "desperately need (armed officers) in every middle school and high school," our country is heading down the toilet.
Is this a reaction to no longer having a zero tolerance policy. If so, I say bring it back.
In this case I vehemently
Fri, 02/04/2011 - 17:42 — DrActualFactualIn this case I vehemently disagree with Jason Langenberg(sp). I think he hopes to provide no consequences to students who make bad choices so that they don't wind up with a criminal record. If you commit crimes, you should be punished; and police are hired to protect citizens. During the past year students have been hit/injured/run over by cars on school premises. Police are the first responders and the SRO's are likely the very first to respond. We had the Ryan Hare, Dalquist, Shaw, Kahil(sp) trial of the murder of Matthew Silliman (those very kids attended school until they were arrested--at school). There are drug dealers and users and gang members (crime actually does pay well until you are caught) attending schools across the system and to downplay their existence is a dangerous ploy. I don't live in fear nor do I live in denial. The weapons the SROs carry are for deterrance moreso than for use. There have been few instances where they have been used inappropriately. I do however agree with Mr. Langenberg's request that kids not be interviewed/questioned until a parent or attorney is present, that seems to reasonably regard their liberty without harming or jeoparding the safety of others.
Thank you!
Fri, 02/04/2011 - 16:14 — nancyncThanks for your service and I could not agree more.
We read it every day, that the felony crimes being committed by young students, young adults is increasing. The constant discussion on what age to treat them like adults in the court system for the serious crimes they commit.
One would think that the sooner kids see officers as friend instead of to be feared, the more they will learn to respect authority.
The agency who suggests this pull back of SRO's are the very ones who deal with the kids in society who are all too often early in the court system.
But police officers are there to protect - what about all the kids they protect? I'm more worried about them.
agree
Fri, 02/04/2011 - 14:36 — turnerk1As a parent of a MS and HS student, I am glad the SROs are there -- particularly at the high school. I know my kids have both come to respect and see the SRO as someone they can go to if there is trouble, and my older child got to see an excellent law enforcement officer at work when something was stolen from him several years ago. Not only do they help provide a safer environment for our students and staff, but the SROs get to know the students and know who needs help and (unfortunately) who might be getting into trouble that needs to be addressed. Gang issues (as cited by Margiotta) are a very small part of why the SRO's are a good idea.
From the report: Significant
Fri, 02/04/2011 - 08:52 — red_balloonFrom the report:
Significant racial disparities exist in the numbers of children being pushed out of school and into delinquency court. Black students make up about twenty-six percent of students in WCPSS, yet they were subject to sixty-nine percent of school-based delinquency complaints over the last two state fiscal years. In contrast, White students represent fifty-one percent of the total student population, but only eighteen percent of school-based delinquency complaints.
If the disparity is on account of victimizing innocent black students, it would be a terrible shame for WCPSS and horrendously unfair to the students and society.
I don't see a need for pushing students into the court system for minor offenses. At the same time, if these students are disruptive, I don't believe they belong in a regular classroom.
All the more reason...
Fri, 02/04/2011 - 10:20 — bpuli9999I suppose, for neighborhood schools.
There is no data/comparison, of course, on the treatment of the same offenses by black / white students (by mostly white officials).
white/black
Fri, 02/04/2011 - 14:37 — turnerk1The SROs in my kids' schools are all black. I don't know if that is unusual but ...
An armed officer in school
Fri, 02/04/2011 - 08:15 — Andrew95An armed officer in school is a good idea. Giving him a segway seems a little unnecessary though... (Yeah, the officer at my school has one. At least the PD paid for it.)
"officer at my school has one"
Fri, 02/04/2011 - 10:23 — FSandYOUDoesn't surprise me. I hear there are lots of things your school has that most don't.
What, a clock tower? Yeah,
Sat, 02/05/2011 - 11:02 — Andrew95What, a clock tower? Yeah, that's what you get for being built in the 40's...
Heh...
Fri, 02/04/2011 - 10:38 — Bob_SconceThat's funny, but unfortunately, it seems that Enloe probably has a higher need for such things. Do a google search of "Enloe lockdown" to see what I mean.
Andrew has said many times
Fri, 02/04/2011 - 12:08 — virginiadareAndrew has said many times he doesn't go to Enloe.
Ahh..
Fri, 02/04/2011 - 12:39 — Bob_SconceYou're right and I knew it that he doesn't. Don't know why I mentioned Enloe at all -- I don't even think I realized I was (in)directly responding to Andrew95.
Why is it a good
Fri, 02/04/2011 - 09:01 — woodstockWhy is it a good idea? Please describe a scenario where armed intervention would be required?
Also, as a point of clarification. The PD does not pay for anything, the taxpayers do.
Please describe a scenario
Fri, 02/04/2011 - 13:26 — Solon77And I thought you actually knew what went on in the schools. Why would armed intervention be required ? - Because there are students that bring weapons to school and some of our schools are in neighborhoods where there are shootings. I know this is foreign concept to you as you believe all neighborhoods are "Leave it to Beaver". Take a look at the reasons for the long term suspension rates - 50% due to weapons/assault and I am not talking about the kid who mistakenly brought his cub scout pocket knife to school.
How many incidences of armed
Fri, 02/04/2011 - 17:11 — woodstockHow many incidences of armed intervention has there been in Wake County schools? Let's deal with facts and not hysteria.
We are so reactionary and our society is becoming increasingly paranoid and fearful as a result. That is a crappy way to live.
Woodstock ... Like we have
Sat, 02/05/2011 - 10:42 — user12345Woodstock ... Like we have all said you need to leave your gated neighborhood and see what is on the other side for the tracks ... your 1950's view of kids and school does not exist except in a few affluent schools where parents are oblivious to the real world.
My high school did not have 14-15 year old pregnant girls taking classes, did not have guns, serious drugs, serious violence ... we had nuclear and hurricane drills and today they have "code red" alerts for when a shooter is on campus .... the police are just a response to the real world you don't see behind your fence and pretend does not exist... MS and HS are small cities that need policing just like Raleigh... ignoring the problem won't make is go away ...
"Gated community?" LOL What
Sat, 02/05/2011 - 11:18 — woodstock"Gated community?" LOL What are you talking about? The only person I know of who lives in a gated communuty is Orage Quales, publisher of the the N&O.. the organization that host of this forum and presents biased news that supports the status quo. Using your reasoning, he is the most clueless person in this entire argument. Personally, I find gated communities offensive and would never live in one even if I had the means. In fact, gated communities are more in-line with your fear and paranoia of fellow citizens and not my view that living in fear of each other is a horrible way to live.
Additionally, you no absolutely nothing of my life experiences, where I have been and what I have done. This is just another example of you making enormous assumptions and presenting them as facts. I know very well and from personal experience just how tough it can be for some people and the horrors that exist. It is heart-wrenching , but it does not mean I have to accept that we need to live in a constant state of fear and apprenhension that our fellow man is out to get us.
Woodstock we can infer from
Sat, 02/05/2011 - 12:37 — user12345Woodstock we can infer from your lack of experience that you don't get out much. While the gated community might be figurative it is just as isolating as the the way you live now. You don't seem to have a grasp on what kids and schools are like now and your solutions to problems are rooted in the 1950's. For example, you equate having police in schools with "constant state of fear and apprehension that our fellow man is out to get us" while they are there to moderate the behavior of the few kids those action and lack of self constraint could turn violent and make the school feel unsafe. It is no different than police in the mall, downtown, or at the airport ... just another public place where police presence is unfortunately needed. I know you mean well but you really need to volunteer in a school or have kids in school to be able to comment on these things.
LOL Are you really this
Sat, 02/05/2011 - 12:52 — woodstockLOL Are you really this dense or just pretending? I clearly stated I have very personal experience in dealing with the situations you claim I know little about. I also know that we live in very -- EXTREMELY - reactionary times where facts and fiction are often difficult to distingquish. Fear controls a lot of how we live our lives. Schools are not the same as malls, airports and other public places. It is an environment with a specific population of teachers and students who all know each other, if we feel we MUST have armed protection in that situation, we are failing to build a country we can be proud of.
Hell, I know they will have armed patrols at schools regardless of what I think, it just sickens me that too many of us accept that as a necessity.
Hell, I know they will have
Sat, 02/05/2011 - 13:17 — user12345Hell, I know they will have armed patrols at schools regardless of what I think, it just sickens me that too many of us accept that as a necessity.
Beaver ... it not the 1950's anymore ... and if you keep approaching today's problems with that era of thinking you will fail over and over ... add some diversity to your thinking ... sorry to use the "D" word
How are today's problems
Sat, 02/05/2011 - 14:01 — woodstockHow are today's problems different than in 1950? Why did things get so much worse since then? Or are they? We now have much greater diversity, more opportunuty and greater prosperity for more people (aside from this temporary recession), and even crime rates are returning to a rates similar to the 1950s. You may also be interested to know that graduation rates in the country steadily increased during the 1950s and 1960s and have stagnated or even declined recently, so maybe we can learn more than you think from that time.
People like you are part of the reason we live in such reactionary times. You make statements you claim are facts, but they are really just assumptions or even outright lies. Fear and paranoia pervades this country and you are helping the process.
This country in a serious drought of pride, optimism and leadership in the country. I think more and more people are recognizing that and the next few election cycles will demonstrate that fact. No one wants to return to the 1950s -- as there were certainly struggles and strife then too -- but we shouldn't ignore then either. We can learn from what was good and decent in those days and embrace those values in the 21st century.
Hey it is your team tearing
Sun, 02/06/2011 - 10:39 — user12345Hey it is your team tearing things down to get power ... that has consequences .. .
This country in a serious drought of pride, optimism and leadership in the country. I think more and more people are recognizing that and the next few election cycles will demonstrate that fact.
Woodstock .. the US is in decline, face up to it ... it will take a major cultural shock to get the country's energy refocused ... today's political bickering only saps the energy from the discussion ... that is the way of civilization ... great empires like the Ottoman, Rome, England. Spain all collapsed as they lost focus ... and now that we are a huge debtor nation we are passing on failure to future generations ... for me worrying about school bus rides, picking kids up early on Wed, wanting longer summers, fewer blacks, poor kids, more lawyers and neighborhood schools are so tangential to the real problems that it is almost humorous to hear your concern ... those local, convenience concerns show how myopic the thinking on education is now ...mark my word that 90% of the organizational and political energy will go into recreating 1950's neighborhood school thinking that returning to the past will make us great again.
How many incidences of armed
Fri, 02/04/2011 - 21:23 — nancyncHow many incidences of armed intervention has there been in Wake County schools? Let's deal with facts and not hysteria.
uhh..
Fri, 02/04/2011 - 20:52 — Bob_SconcePerhaps a better question is what harm has arisen from having them in schhols.
Harm? The expense, the
Fri, 02/04/2011 - 21:54 — woodstockHarm? The expense, the degredation of our quality of life, the institutionalization of fear and paranoia, and accpetance of that it is just the way things are in today's society, perpetuation that we need to be protected from each other, loss of innocence... and on and on. It is not the world I want to live in.
??
Sat, 02/05/2011 - 00:31 — nancyncThe degredation of our quality of life???? You put that on having an officer in the schools?
WHO degredated the quality of life, certainly not the officer who is now needed!
?
Fri, 02/04/2011 - 23:06 — Bob_SconceWhy is it more expensive for a resource officer to carry a gun? Why is there fear and paranoia when a uniformed officer carries a weapon? I see that and I usually feel safer.
What I really want to know is . . . who kidnapped Woodstock and replaced him with a liberal?
I meant the expense of
Fri, 02/04/2011 - 23:30 — woodstockI meant the expense of actually employing the officer. The fear and paranoia comes into play when you send your children to school and you think they need armed protection... against their classmates.
It's not........
Sat, 02/05/2011 - 00:30 — nancyncFear and paranoia it's not, reality it is. Very different.
I've witnessed some brutal fights break out when my kids were in high school, watching a student get kicked, head banged into the pavement by more than one other student while students stood in a circle watching it all take place.
Had it not been for an SRO the student being beaten may have not made it.
Reality is not pretty, but let's face it, we have some seriously messed up students who think nothing of challenging authority figures, who have no self control.
As to cost? When it comes to providing security for the good students, the cost is worth every penny, and unfortunately it's necessary because of some of the maladjusted student body.
I know there is truth in
Sat, 02/05/2011 - 10:18 — woodstockI know there is truth in what you say. I just don't like where our country is headed in terms of the the protection we think we need... and, admittedly, in some cases we may really need. Where does it end? I think the escalation in our security demands and hightened awareness -- real or perceived -- of potential dangers actually advances an atmosphere of stress, suspicion and expected violence. It's distressing.
As for the "seriously messed up students." Get them hell out of our schools. There is no reason anyone should have to put up with that. Maybe reform schools need to make a comeback.
"Had it not been for an SRO the student being beaten may have not made it."
Where were the teachers and administrators? Did they wait for the sole SRO officer run across campus to lend assistance? Do they have a role in protecting our students? Also did the SRO pull his weapon?
Welcome to the new reality
Sat, 02/05/2011 - 11:55 — Solon77Where were the teachers and administrators? Did they wait for the sole SRO officer run across campus to lend assistance? Do they have a role in protecting our students? Also did the SRO pull his weapon?
Really - where have you been ? Teachers and Administrators do not touch students these days out of fear of lawsuits and criminal charges. Teacher breaks up a fight and a student has a broken arm - the teacher and the school get sued, the teacher could face charges of assault. The reaction of the parents is to blame the teacher and the school for everything and anything bad that happens to their kid. A policeman has a higher legal status in these matters than do teachers and administrators. And really do you think a female teacher weighing 120lbs is going to break up a fight between two 160-170lb males ?
The day of the teacher/administrators being the respected authority supported by all parents has long passed.
You just precisely described
Sat, 02/05/2011 - 12:16 — woodstockYou just precisely described the situation that we have allowed to happen. Why has the school environment changed so drastically? The national crime rates and incidences of violence has declined dramtically over the years, but our schools have gotten worse and less capable of handling situations. Why is that? Are the kids worse or have we made a series of bad decisons and policies that have allowed that to happen.
So...
Sat, 02/05/2011 - 18:35 — Bob_SconceIs it a "why" question? Who is 'we'? Societally, the increase may be due to a string of poor policy choices, but that's water under the bridge.
My high school had two unarmed resource officers when I was there in the 80's, and I think they had been there for at least a decade.
Why has the school environment changed so drastically
Sat, 02/05/2011 - 15:58 — Solon77Why has the school environment changed so drastically?
I don't know ? But from an academic point of view let's ask some of the middle/upper middle class parents who do their kids homework for them. The ones who blame teachers for their kids poor grades - have they gotten so competitive that they believe the ends justifies the means ? The qualities of how one gets there doesn't matter.
Are the kids worse or have we made a series of bad decisons and policies that have allowed that to happen.
Would you care to elaborate ? What bad decisions / policies ?
I don't know ? But from an
Sat, 02/05/2011 - 16:38 — woodstockI don't know ? But from an academic point of view let's ask some of the middle/upper middle class parents who do their kids homework for them. The ones who blame teachers for their kids poor grades - have they gotten so competitive that they believe the ends justifies the means ? The qualities of how one gets there doesn't matter.
Show me the data that indicates "middle/upper middle class parents who do their kids homework for them." I probably fit in that category income-wise and I can assure you that I have never done my chidren's homework for them. Regardless, what does any of that have to do with your perception that our school are so dangerous we need armed patrols?
"Would you care to elaborate ?"
I will "elaborate" by asking again, Are our kids worse than they used to be? You must think so because I keep hearing it is not 1950 anymore and times have changed. What is causing our schools to be more dangerous... or at least your perception that they are.
Show me the data
Sat, 02/05/2011 - 19:33 — Solon77Show me the data that indicates "middle/upper middle class parents who do their kids homework for them." I probably fit in that category income-wise and I can assure you that I have never done my chidren's homework for them.
So again tipping your hand that you have not spent anytime in the schools. Any ES teacher can provide you examples. What does this have to do with discipline in the school ? It goes to the lack of parental respect for our teachers. If parents do not respect the teachers academically what makes anyone think they will be supported when it comes to discipline.
I will "elaborate" by asking again, Are our kids worse than they used to be?
Worse - is a matter of perspective. Times are certainly different that is for sure. Do my kids live in fear because there is an armed police officer ? No. Do I live in fear because I can no longer leave my car unlocked with the keys in it, or leave the door to my house unlocked - no. So I ask you what policies have cause this ?
LOL That's it? The reason
Sat, 02/05/2011 - 21:05 — woodstockLOL That's it? The reason for our dangerous schools is that affluent parents help their kids with homework... and that leads to disrespect? Are you kidding me? Why did you even bother to respond. I thought children from affluent families were the saviors of the school system. Which is it, are they saviors or the problem?
Once again, are the kids worse today or have we -- society, leadership, etc. -- created an environment where it is more dangerous? OR, we just overreacting.... again.