If you're one of the people who've wondered if a four-day work week would be the way to deal with school budget cuts in Wake County, it's not considered a viable option yet.
Chief Business Officer David Neter laid out eight different options Wednesday they said had been suggested by people, including school board members, for coping with $20 million in state cuts. Those eight options were all rejected for various reasons.
Neter said it would take a change in state law to allow Wake to move to a four-day work week. State law requires schools to have both 180 days and 1,000 hours of instruction.
Wake could lengthen the four school days to get the 1,000 hours. But the district would need state intervention to have less than 180 days.
School board member Anne McLaurin asked if the General Assembly might consider waiving the 180-day rule. School board member Keith Sutton said he doesn't believe it would happen because of the backlash it would generate.
The General Assembly has waived the 180-day rule in years where schools lost a lot of time because of snow and hurricanes.
But if it did happen, Neter said the savings would come from transportation and utilities. But he said that a 20 percent reduction in utility costs would be unlikely because school would be in session longer on the four days.
Joe Desormeaux, assistant superintendent for facilities, also said they wouldn't be able to completely shut down the HVAC systems on that fifth day. He said they'd need to leave it on to prevent mold and address other air quality issues.
There's also the challenges it would pose to parents having to find childcare on that fifth day.
Sutton had suggested creating more Title I schools to get more federal money. But Neter said Wake only gets funding per Title I student, not per school.
Neter said they also looked at getting more stimulus funding. But he said that the state won't be applying again for the next round of Race to the Top funding until June.
Sutton said there might be some individual stimulus grants Wake could get. But he didn't think it would really help with funding existing salaries.
Neter said they had also explored getting the district's potential $70 million share of the fines and forfeiture lawsuit. Superior Court Judge Howard Manning had ruled in 2008 that the state had illegally withheld $747.9 million in civil fines to the school districts.
State legislative leaders have argued that they just don't have the money to comply with the ruling. They've instead talked about supplanting the funds with money that would have already gone to schools.
Neter said it's a good example of the financial challenge that the state and nation are facing. While Wake is legally entitled to its share of the fine money, the money is not there.
Neter said they had also looked at half-day kindergarten. But he said the state statutory requirement for 1,000 hours of instruction would have to be waived.
Interim Supt. Danna Hargens said that families of some 12,000 kindergarten students are counting on it being a full-day program this fall. The class is larger than normal because the state law requiring kids to turn age 5 by Aug. 1 to enter kindergarten went into effect last year.
Hargens also pointed out that it would impact all the full-time kindergarten teachers.
Hargens and Neter also pointed to the positive academic benefits of full-day kindergarten. Neter said North Carolina is among the nine states that require full-day kindergarten.
Neter said they had also looked at a suggestion from board vice chairwoman Debra Goldman to shut down all the traditional-calendar schools over the summer. Neter brought up the health issues that would be raised by shutting down the HVAC systems.
Neter also noted that the schools generate revenue over the summer from groups renting the facilities.
Stephen Gainey, assistant superintendent for human resources, also pointed out how high schools are used during the summer by bands and athletic teams.
Desormeaux also pointed out that they're already planning to cut back on summer custodial service.
Neter said they had also looked at making additional changes to building temperatures. Desormeaux said they had already made a change last year with another already planned for this year.
Neter said they had talked with principals about making even more changes. He said the principals said it's their preference not to make the buildings any hotter in the summer and colder in the winter.
The last option that Neter said they had looked at and rejected was use of furloughs and salary reductions.
Neter said that there's the issue of how the state funds positions based on months of employment. He said Wake could make a 1 percent reduction in salary but the state will still view it as a case of where they're picking up the same months of employment. Neter said there's na way to ask for the money back from the state.
Most school employees are state funded. Neter said they wouldn't have the same problem getting the money back from the locally funded positions. But he said it would create fairness issues in which state-funded teachers are making more money than locally funded ones.
In addition, Neter said that reducing salary would be considered a demotion. In the case of certified staff, such as teachers, appeal hearings would have to be held.
As for furloughs, Neter said there would be legal issues with Wake imposing one on its own. He said it would be different if Gov. Perdue did what she had done last year and ordered a statewide furlough.
Furloughs are also something more used for industrial settings. Neter said schools just can't cut back on capacity like factories. He pointed to how school employees had such a problem taking their 10 hours of leave time when Perdue ordered the furloughs last year.
Instead, Neter presented this list of cuts yesterday. He said the list was developed after talking with principals.
"If we’re going to have to impact schools, we looked at how we could impact them in the least possible manner," Neter said.

Comments
Convert certain services to contract
Mon, 04/19/2010 - 19:44 — Voice_of_Reason_Here's an idea we used in the military that saved a huge amount of money. We bid out custodial service, food services, building maintenance, and transportation. The cost savings would probably be more because federal contracts have a large number of special hire and pay rules that increase the cost. You would eliminate public retirement considerations and increase hire of lower economic status workers. In transportation, buses could be owned by private individuals or companies and could be used for other purposes beside school transportation. Safety, performance, and security considerations would be worked into the contract. Some of the current employees could be retained for contract monitoring. Performance bonuses could be worked into the contracts to attract better service. And of course, penalties for sub-standard performance. Private sector competition would most likely improve services. Tax income would also be a side benefit to add to the savings.
Reply to shearertw: (too
Mon, 04/19/2010 - 12:50 — magnetParentReply to shearertw: (too skinny below)
Not sure what magnet status has to do with it, but I'll let you have your fun.
Are you looking for an exact clone of Wake County? Duh... not going to find it.
Wake County did not make their assignments based on race, education of parents, etc.
Solely on F&R status. Similar to Duval's. Thats how we compare apples to apples.
And no, Duval County, even today, is not doing as well as WCPSS. Look more closely at their FCAT scores for 2008 and 2009. Here are the high schools. Is this
what they are graduating? Is this how we want our high schools to be?
school 2008 2009
Feel free to look closer at the data.
http://schools.jacksonville.com/fcat/index.php/fcat/index.php?schoolid=10&year=2009&action=reportcard
You can even look at their historical data, since 1999 when they changed their policy. There is not a whole lot of improvement.
Some of these schools have below 10% of their students at grade level for reading.
You can turn a blind eye to these stats, but I would prefer that they are noted and used as an example of what we have to keep from happening here. Learn from their mistakes.
Do you happen to think that
Mon, 04/19/2010 - 13:27 — shearertwDo you happen to think that they are not doing as well as WCPSS in gross number because, say, maying Wake Co. has an advantage with near 2X as many parents with a BA or higher degree? A 31% lower poverty rate? A 30% higher median income? 65% lower AA population? 25% lower F&R population? etc.
Any school system in NC, or the USA for that matter, can take a kid from a dual parent household, both with BA or higher degrees making $65K or better/year and achieve high scores. This is because the majority of the standard testing is a pretty low bar. The true measure of a school system's succes is what it does with students on the lower end. This is where WPCSS does the worst and is doing NO better than practically anyone else regardless of the make up of the school system. SO....the diversity policy has NOT helped the ED students in WCPSS. Removing it will not harm them either. It sounds to me that's what you found in Duval as well, "since 1999, there is not a whole lot of improvement". Sounds like it didn't get worse either.
Finally, I'm not holding up Duval Co. as the place to be. If we can't do far better than places like that, then we are failing.
Does it not strike you as interesting that WCPSS is performing pretty much on par (or worse) in the ED department compared to other large districts that DO NOT bus for diversity?
Are you concerned with improving the performance of ED students in WCPSS or maintaining your child's magnet status? The diversity policy may help with your child's magnet status but its certainly not helping ED students, hence the question.
It has absolutely nothing to
Mon, 04/19/2010 - 14:48 — magnetParentIt has absolutely nothing to do with my childs magnet status - my child will be done and graduated before they get this plan off the ground. But I believe this magnet program has benefits that should not be thrown away (benefits to all ED and NED students alike). Did the application process need changes? Sure. Just don't throw it away.
Not sure where you get 25% lower F&R - in 2008 Wake county had 34% and Duval had 39%. Duval county moved from diversity "busing" to neighborhood schools in 1999. They have not proven to me that it has improved their student achievement. Is that what we want for Wake County kids as a whole? Why NOT look at this as a lesson learned and find out what they did wrong and avoid those mistakes? Learn what it cost them (financially and academically) and keep it from happening here?
There is another county in Florida that utilized "Controlled Choice" which allows parents to choose (1st, 2nd and 3rd choice), but maintains diversity in every school. Unfortunately, it can result in a few students with longer bus rides (most are under 30 minutes), which some parents here seem to be so focused on, that there would be resistence. But this is another model that is proven to look at.
The 2009 numbers are 31 and
Mon, 04/19/2010 - 17:09 — shearertwThe 2009 numbers are 31 and 41, respectively....that's about 25% difference. The gross difference is only 10% but its a 25% difference betwee the 2.
I don't think anyone is saying that "stopping" busing is what will improve performance. What we are saying is that busing DOESN'T improve performance so it should be stopped. Then, as you say, we see what ELSE we can do that MAY work since we know busing doesn't. That was my point about Duval, they stopped and it didn't get worse (perhaps a little better). Of course we can do much much better with our improvements especially if we learn from other's mistakes.
Do the math
Mon, 04/19/2010 - 18:47 — magnetParentWake county had 46,909 F&R out of 139,599 which calculates to 33.6%. My goodness why are you quibbling over this?
If one county had 1% and the other had 2% would you cry that there is 50% difference between the two? What value is that number? Their F&R rates are similar enough to make these two counties comparable. If its okay to compare to Fairfax schools (with an F&R rate or 21%) then it is equally acceptable to look at the other end of the spectrum.
The focus is so much on neighborhood schools that the real issue - student achievement - is not being addressed. Duval County should be studied before thowing away the diversity policy. BTW - I read a recent news article from a Jacksonville newspaper talking about their budget crisis for 2010 - of an addition $125 million needing to be cut from the schools.
Perhaps you do get a
Sat, 04/17/2010 - 08:18 — shearertwPerhaps you do get a prize....we'll see.
First, I think I need to know a little more about this "rating" system. There is often a lot of bias in rating systems.
Second, how do their ED students perform? How about National Merit Scholars and SATs scores? Or other indicators of success?
And finally, how does the parental population rank compared to Wake.
Wake is 2nd in the country, Seatle is #1, so maybe they're number 3, but I doubt it.
You moved. see my
Sat, 04/17/2010 - 10:35 — magnetParentYou moved.
see my response below.
reduce the number of days
Thu, 04/15/2010 - 21:07 — nkskdhthere's nothing magical about 180 days. let's stick with the hours requirement and give schools additional flexibility. we need some leadership in the legislature!
It just keeps getting better
Thu, 04/15/2010 - 19:53 — occum_sharpeIt is truly amazing how embarrassingly silly this whole mess is. You can't cut county supplements for administrators, which would result in lots of extra money, but you are going to cut coaching supplements by 30%. This just doesn't make sense, especially when there are many more administrators than coaches and coaching supplements in Wake are'nt really anything to brag about anyway. Even sillier is the belief that selling naming rights to a stadium will generate a large amount of money. Some schools might generate a little extra cash, but the ones who probably need it the most would have to settle for much less. Also, corporate business has always been a little leary of making large monetary donations to individual public schools because of the "if you do it for one, you gotta do it for all" syndrome. I don't think you will find many companies that would pay more than $10,000 dollars to name a high school football stadium and that won't even buy new uniforms and the gas for away games. When faced with dire consequences, you must make dire decisions. 1. Make ALL Magnet Bus Routes Express Routes (no door to door stops). This would save a lot of money and the parents who have the door to door service would have to bite the bullet for the good of the school system as a whole. 2. Shorten the school year by 10 days by beginning the school year 5 days later and ending 5 days earlier. 3. If the legislature will not allow #2, Develop a graduated county supplement cut for all school system employees. For example, 8% for all administrators, 4 % for all teachers and certified staff, and 2% for all classified staff. It was easy to keep all of your political promises. It was easy to be cavalier in carrying out your political agenda. Now when it's time to make tough decisions, the rats are scurrying for the darkness and we are waiting for a leader to step forward. Who will it be?
Agree with 1 and 2. I would
Thu, 04/15/2010 - 21:37 — NWRaleighMomAgree with 1 and 2. I would prefer not to cut teacher's salaries. Allow more charter schools instead of building new county schools.
I'd prefer to see them focus
Thu, 04/15/2010 - 22:18 — CaryCurmudgeonI'd prefer to see them focus on complete elimination of non-teaching positions. If that doesn't close the equation, then ask for more money. Cutting teacher positions or salary is not the answer.
really?
Fri, 04/16/2010 - 06:36 — turnerk1Do you really want to see whan an elementary school would look like with no custodial service? How about high schools with no counselors to deal with college admissions? How about cafeteria staff and bus drivers? There are many non-teaching positions which are vital.
The non-teaching positions I
Fri, 04/16/2010 - 08:18 — CaryCurmudgeonThe non-teaching positions I was referring to don't reside in the schools. We still have those two area superintendent positions that were added by the old board in 2008, for example. And each of those people get a full-time assistant. Eliminating just those four jobs saves $300K. There are still 115 people in
WCPSS making over $100K/year, and many of them have built their own little fiefdoms of well-paids subordinates. The construction division of WCPSS has already seen one round of cuts, perhaps they can be cut again.
Before jumping to an "easy" answer of across-the-board pay cuts, the board needs to scrutinize every single line of the budget. And, if necessary, the board should not be afraid to ask for more money if that is the only way to avoid further degrading of class sizes.
CaryC
Fri, 04/16/2010 - 09:24 — occum_sharpeLike you, I don't believe in wasting money. I grew up when and where things were tough and we had to do without. My politics are all over the board on many issues, but on fiscal responsibility, I am right with you, cut the salaries and eliminate some of the positions of the people who do not directly touch kids, cut all the bussing perks for a chosen few, cut out all the thrills. This can be done.
Time to pull out the stops
Fri, 04/16/2010 - 11:50 — user12345I told Woodstock a month back that these guys need to get serious and pull out all the stops to fix this budget ... and he said just wait because he is a status quo kinda guy ... I think they need to do something serious soon ... it seems like they are happy to slowly decrease teachers and increase class size to preserve the existing cost structure .... maybe we end all sports, leave the Supt vacant, build a three story building at Wakefield and forget Rolesville HS, dump character education and the high paid NCDOE Consultants, have one bus to each neighborhood with ES to HS like when I was in school, sell all property that won't be used in the next five years, etc.
Amen. Trim the fat at
Fri, 04/16/2010 - 11:30 — changewcpssAmen. Trim the fat at central office but don't take away our teachers.
Yep, you betcha--keep the
Fri, 04/16/2010 - 11:53 — DrActualFactualYep, you betcha--keep the teachers! There are plenty of able bodied parents that would volunteer at central office or in classrooms if you need them (for free)--but we are not certified to do the teaching so please, keep the teachers!
I knew if enough subjects
Fri, 04/16/2010 - 09:32 — CaryCurmudgeonI knew if enough subjects were discussed we'd end up agreeing on one of them
No problem there
Thu, 04/15/2010 - 20:03 — louiselee44"2. Shorten the school year by 10 days by beginning the school year 5 days later and ending 5 days earlier...If the legislature will allow [it]."
Oh - the legislature would have nothing to do with this, so no problem. All local school boards still set their own calendars, just within the Aug. 25th and June 10th parameters.
but wouldn't that be less
Fri, 04/16/2010 - 09:24 — JSBinNCbut wouldn't that be less than the 180 days and 1000 hours? Wouldn't they have to get a waiver or special permission to do that?
When they have one of those
Fri, 04/16/2010 - 14:52 — user12345When they have one of those 180 days on a Saturday or holiday and few kids show up, does that count toward the 180? I am wondering if we can get the 1000 hours in with four days a week and schedule days on Saturday that no one is expected to actually come to school to be able to check the 180 day box? It seems we need to get the general assembly out of school micromanagement ... how many day, start, stop, number of hours ..... and get them to concentrate on results ... if a system produces the results don't worry about the number of "buns on seats" hours.
Do you know how long that
Fri, 04/16/2010 - 16:01 — louiselee44Do you know how long that 180-day part has been "on the books"? I don't, but would love to find out.
Also, the push now (and it's been on the horizon for many years) is to extend the 180-day number to 200 or 220. Do I hear "budget crisis"?
I think the state average in
Fri, 04/16/2010 - 16:13 — louiselee44I think the state average in Minnesota was 172 days in 2007 - 2008. Interesting.
Oh, yes -
Fri, 04/16/2010 - 14:23 — louiselee44They would still have to have the 180 days and 1,000 hours... so this would mean cutting out certain holidays, vacation days, workdays, etc. and making them school days. Some are required, of course. Practical? Ummm, I don't think so. It would be very difficult, at best, in my opinion, and I don't think it would ever fly even if it was doable. But I'm glad people are thinking!!.
Isn't this a problem?
Thu, 04/15/2010 - 20:04 — Dove314corporate business has always been a little leary of making large monetary donations to individual public schools because of the "if you do it for one, you gotta do it for all" syndrome.
I understood the community schools model would be doing exactly this -- asking for corporate sponsors, amongst others, to provide donations specific to a particular school and it's unique needs. I thought this was to be a special contribution of Mr. Tedesco given his business development background.
Fund schools locally! The
Thu, 04/15/2010 - 15:17 — shearertwFund schools locally!
The state annual budget for NC public schools is around $7.8 billion. Personal income tax revenue is variable but ranges from 9.5-10.5 billion dollars per year.
Wake county currently collects about $0.64 billion dollars/year in property taxes. About 72% of those property taxes (around $0.46 billion) goes to fund public schools. If property taxes were doubled and 100% of the new property tax revenue was allocated to public schools, then 1.28 billion in revenues would be collected and $1.1 billion would go to public schools. If we divide $1.1 billion by 140,000 students in Wake Co. we end up with $7857/student or about what Wake Co spends now.
Again, state income taxes bring in about $10B/year. Primary education cost about 7.8B/year. So eliminating primary public edu from the NC State budget AND eliminating state the income tax would put us 2.2B/year short. I believe the state could make up that shortage in other areas such as increases in sales tax, fees, etc or perhaps just leaving the 2 or 3% added surtax on the top earners among us (i.e. those over 150K/year) that would be gaining the most from eliminating the state income tax.
I believe this would be extremely helpful to our education system in that our local budgets would not be subjected to the whims and shortfalls of the state, particularly as unfunded mandates like those associated with healthcare or rises and falls in income tax revenue continue to get worse in the future. Just a thought.
Aside From Being A Spectacularly Bad Idea
Thu, 04/15/2010 - 20:33 — chaboardthat would leave kids in large parts of the state totally out in the could....this is also not even remotely practical because it would require amending the state constitution. Which very clearly lays out public education as a STATE responsibility.
EDITED TO ADD: Nevermind. Should've read ahead as I see that both the constitution problem and the counties with no funds to educate their kids have been raised by others already. Nevermind...
I wonder how the other
Thu, 04/15/2010 - 20:58 — shearertwI wonder how the other states make it with funding schools this way? Its not impossible. Texas is able to handle it just fine. There are certainly more remote areas there than in NC.
It may be politically impossible in NC but that alone doesn't make it a bad idea.
"Texas is able to handle it
Thu, 04/15/2010 - 23:00 — user12345"Texas is able to handle it just fine"
The history of the state of Texas is unlike that of any other state in the Union. Texas, having once been a part of Spain, then Mexico, was annexed into the United States in 1845. Since Texas retained title to all of its public lands, the federal government could not grant trust lands to the state to support state institutions as they did with other states joining the Union. However, the Texas State Constitution granted “one half of the [remaining] public domain of the State” and the mineral rights within riverbeds, channels and tidewater boundaries of Texas to support the state’s public schools.1 In 1854, the Texas State Legislature created the Texas Permanent School Fund with an initial $2 million appropriated from state general funds. The state’s counties also received grants of land to use for the support of local public schools, for which the land revenues are invested by the counties. Only the interest of this investment is distributed to the schools,2 and the principal of the county permanent school funds can be used to reduce bond indebtedness.
User, That's an interesting
Fri, 04/16/2010 - 08:24 — shearertwYou know, the most interesting part of this thread is not chaboard and danofnc and others disagree, its that they jump on every alternative idea presented with an attempt to beat you into submission. Of course, you know they picked the wrong guy for that..... Given the state of public schools in WCPSS, NC and in most parts of this country, it would seem to me that anyone who cares about our kids education would be at least somewhat open to explore other options. We're spending tons of money on education, basically half of NC's entire budget yet what are the results? Neither chaboard nor danofnc took any time to investigate the idea before they started throwing stones. At least you (user) took some a minute or two to read some history. I just find it sad that so many people here are fighting so hard to keep a system in place that no one could honestly say has been successful. We've gotta do something different, not doing so would be insanity. You're welcome to have issues with some of my ideas but how about post some of your's (your's is not directed at you user, this time) from time to time?
I just remember the unique
Fri, 04/16/2010 - 08:54 — user12345I just remember the unique funding model inTexas based on oil and gas and how sometimes that are rich and sometime poor ... especially the colleges? ... Also, there was some clause where the funds could only be used for capital projects so they could build schools and stadiums but not hire teachers.
Todd, as someone who has been part of schools that are a failure likeAtlanta , Baltimore , etc. I feel I know what failure is and WCPSS is not there. WCPSS is a lot like Cary ... normal, bland, middle of the road, cookie cutter. I was draw to Wake because it did not have the normal core of poor minorities warehouse in-town surrounded by white, affluent suburbs like all the other cities … you could actual live ITB and your children could go to a nearby school and not get shot in a drug shoot out … I know Garner HS is not Green Hope HS but still a plumber can own a home in Garner and his kids have a chance at college … so, WCPSS is not a failure … it produces the best product at the lowest possible cost … we have diverse school … the disparity is not a wide as other places … this is a nice place to live …. So as someone who has seen truly failed schools and seen real failure … you complaints are just whining in my mind …
What you start with...
Fri, 04/16/2010 - 11:31 — shearertwUser,
You and others have continually dodged this question every time I’ve raised it. I was wondering if you or anyone else out there now has the courage to answer me…. WCPPS has one of, if not the, lowest ED population of any large school system in the country. I challenge you to find one with a lower ED population. If you can find one with a lower ED population, I challenge you to find one that spends MORE or the SAME as WCPSS and does worse or even is as bad as WCPSS in ED performance or SAT scores. This area (Wake Co.) is has the 2nd most educated population in the entire country. Do you not think that the combination of low ED and high parental education has a factor in why WCPSS has remained mediocre instead of being worse? Do you not think that we should expect more from WCPSS given the population they serve? You continuously say that WCPSS does pretty well especially when compared to Atlanta, Detroit, etc. But WCPSS is NOT serving a population anywhere close in comparison to those cities. Raleigh is and never has been even remotely like Atlanta. WCPSS has arguably the easiest population in the country to educate, yet we’re barely mediocre by your own standards. Do you not believe that it’s not where you end up but how far you’ve come that is the true measure of success? WCPSS, in my opinion, is not going anywhere. Please try and take some time to answer this question.
Reply
Fri, 04/16/2010 - 15:20 — user12345“WCPPS has one of, if not the, lowest ED population of any large school system in the country. “
That is because we are a county system. Normally, all the ED kids would be warehouse ITB in their own City school system. So, when you are talking size, Wake ends up being compared to large cities system. So that statement is a red herring and I will discard.
“I challenge you to find one with a lower ED population. If you can find one with a lower ED population, I challenge you to find one that spends MORE or the SAME as WCPSS and does worse or even is as bad as WCPSS in ED performance or SAT scores.”
I really do not have the time to go around researching educational data especially nation wide …. Let us just stick with NC since that is who funds us, directs us, and regulate us. There might be some school in AK that does something better but we live in NC.
“Do you not think that the combination of low ED and high parental education has a factor in why WCPSS has remained mediocre instead of being worse?”
Unrelated groups … ED are mostly isolated in ITB, SE, Garner, Knightdale with a smattering in a few other places … high parental education folks are in Cary, Apex, and North Raleigh … they rarely intersect except at magnet schools … they live different lives in different parts of town and could easily be in different counties.
“Do you not think that we should expect more from WCPSS given the population they serve?”
I think we should except more from public school period. That is why I would not put my kids into public school until I had to (need language, Calculus, chemistry help). Public school is the best a common denominator can be. It produces marginal citizens who are literate, can vote, and serve in the military. Public anything is never efficient. That is why we have the Private Sector. If you look at WCPSS where the teachers are state employees with state credentials using state books to teach a state curriculum what is there for WCPSS to do … there is little room for innovation … they are told the number of hours to have school, the number of days, the start date and end date ….
“Raleigh is and never has been even remotely like Atlanta .”
If the school systems had not been merged,Raleigh would be a mirror of Atlanta .
“WCPSS has arguably the easiest population in the country to educate, yet we’re barely mediocre by your own standards. “
So you are saying the easiest population, NED are failing? I do not think so.
I think WCPSS is the lowest provider. They put out an average product for a below average cost. That is what the people of NC want. Wake is an anomaly in a rural state where kids still get out of school for the State Fair to watch the latest milking techniques.
So, WCPSS is constrained by the state in every manner possible. They invest rock bottom $$’s in kids compared to EVERY one else. They have bitchy, self-absorbed parents how complain about every inconvenience that affects their daycare costs. Personally, I am amazed the system functions at all.
Yes....our NED are failing
Fri, 04/16/2010 - 15:32 — shearertwYes....our NED are failing to reach they're potentials as they have the 2nd most educated parents in the country. How we matching up in the National Merit Scholar area? Middle of the road SAT scores with the 2nd most educated parental pop? That is failure.
The best measure of a school systems performance is how well it does with ED students as they are most similar from one large system to another. With ED's WCPSS is failing, no doubt.
Finally, you had absolutely no answers....just a list of excuses and dodged the question once again. Perry? Any one else want to try?
That was embarrassing user.....I expected a lot more.
Here you are. Do I get a prize?
Fri, 04/16/2010 - 23:08 — magnetParentdistrict size rating ED Cost/pupil
======== ======= ==== == ===========
Wake 140,000 7 34% $7728
Gwinnet Cty GA 155,000 8 40% $8859
Montgomery Cty 137,000 7 n/a $13,938
Cobb Cty, GA 107,000 7 34% $8815
Pinellas Cty, FL 145,000 6 41% $8656
Duval Cty, FL 146,000 5 39% $8395
Fairfax Cty, VA 168,000 7 21% $12,716
Charlotte-Meck 131,000 6 48% $8081
Baltimore Cty 105,000 6 n/a $11,307
Dekalb Cty, GA 100,000 4 64% $10,073
Orange Cty, FL 169,000 6 47% $8116
EDIT: While waiting for my prize, I looked further into Duval County schools. Here is their rundown on achievement vs demographics: http://www.duvalschools.org/reseval/DistrictPerformance/1999-2009_SchoolGrades_AYP.pdf
Its not too pretty. Alot of imbalance on the schools - some at 90% F&R, some below 10%. I call this a fail.
umm, your cost per pupil in
Sat, 04/17/2010 - 08:48 — shearertwumm, your cost per pupil in Wake Co. is off (low) by about $1000 according to the 2008-2009 budget. What other numbers in your table are not accurate?
Considering all of the
Sat, 04/17/2010 - 10:13 — magnetParentConsidering all of the numbers are from the same source, if Wake county is low, so are the others. But they are all relative.
NO PRIZE 4 You
Mon, 04/19/2010 - 11:46 — shearertwSorry magnetParent, Despite your magnet status....your research will not lead you to a prize. Duval County is NO Wake Co. Let's lay out some KEY differences.... Demographics: WCPSS - 51.2% White, 25.9% Black, 11.8% Hisp Duval Co Schools - 43.6% white, 42.7% black, 6.2% Hisp WCPSS - 31.4% F&R Duval Co. - 41.4% F&R WCPSS - ~ 8,800/student Duval Co - $8,414/student Now for the real damage...... Wake Co. - 89.3% with H.S. edu or greater, 47.6% with B.A degree or greater Duval Co. - 82.7% with H.S edu or greater, 21.9% with a B.A. degree or higher Wake Co. - median household income - $65,148 Duval Co. - median household income - $50,606 Wake Co. - poverty rate 9.2% Duval Co. - poverty rate 12.1% When I look deeper into the performance of Duval Co. schools, I actually find a completely different picture than what you have portrayed. Duval Co. schools are not doing great, don’t get me wrong. However, if you begin to break it down by demographics, etc., I would venture to say Duval Co. is doing at least as well as WCPSS. In addition, the trends for Duval Co. are all UP (grad rate, SAT scores, etc.) while those numbers are trending DOWN in WCPSS.
There’s more to this than a simple “greatschools.Com” rating. Duval Co. is dealing with an entirely different population of folks and doing quite well by WCPSS standards, even though that’s not saying much.
I can't believe you go to
Mon, 04/19/2010 - 12:03 — danofncI can't believe you go to such lengths to attempt to discredit a comparison that is so much closer to being valid than your personal favorite, the HISD.
By the way....the people of Edgcombe county are still waiting for your explanation about .86 being less than .534.
Oh, and one more thing.
Mon, 04/19/2010 - 12:50 — shearertwOh, and one more thing. ALL of my references to HISD have been with regard to the performance of ED students and showing how a school system CAN do better than WCPSS with ED students. HISD is an extreme example and that is the point! HISD can do better with 85% ED system wide vs WCPSS's 31%. Of course, you try and claim that is easier for a school system with high ED to do better with them than a school system with a lower ED pop. But then, you'll turn-around and say that creating high ED schools hurt ED students? If it can be done system wide in a place like Houston, why can it not be done in a few schools in WCPSS? That is the entire point of the HISD comparison. Get it NOW?
Yeah, I get it
Mon, 04/19/2010 - 14:16 — danofncSo, you compare WCPSS to HISD when it comes to ED kids.
But, you also ask "How many National Merit Scholars, etc." when you compare the performance of NED students to districts other than HISD.
You are expecting WCPSS to be better than whatever random district you select in whatever random metric you choose. That isn't honest.
HISD is >85% ED kids. I bet they don't have to spend a lot of time worrying about whether or not their AP classes are evenly assigned. I bet they don't have to worry about "rim schools", ITB, OTB, or any of the other unique challenges that WCPSS has to deal with every day.
If your boss gives you 1 project and says "Do a great job", isn't it easier than if he gives you 4 projects to juggle simultaneously?
HISD has one project. It's a huge project, but it's still basically just one project.
That's just the county
Mon, 04/19/2010 - 12:29 — shearertwThat's just the county rate. That doesn't include the municipality rates. Most people in Edgecombe are not incorporated into a city unlike in Wake Co. Most of Wake's citizens ALSO pay municipality rates which can be as high as 1.05 or so.
But the people of Edgecombe didn't need me to explain that, only you did.
And to your first comment, I'm only going to great lengths to make sure the data and conclusions presented are accurate. Lazy research is part of the reason we're in this mess.
It can also be as low as
Mon, 04/19/2010 - 14:05 — danofncIt can also be as low as .864 in Wake County, right? Aren't most WC residents also Raleigh residents, who would have a .9075 tax rate? What was it you said about lazy research? Or at least honest research?
Most of the people who pay municipality rates pay a rate just above Edgecombe's county rate.
I also think your assumption that most Edgecombe residents aren't in a municipality is false. You do know that a fairly good portion of Rocky Mount is in Edgecombe County, right?
Perhaps you do get a
Sat, 04/17/2010 - 08:19 — shearertwPerhaps you do get a prize....we'll see.
First, I think I need to know a little more about this "rating" system. There is often a lot of bias in rating systems.
Second, how do their ED students perform? How about National Merit Scholars and SATs scores? Or other indicators of success?
And finally, how does the parental population rank compared to Wake.
Wake is 2nd in the country, Seatle is #1, so maybe they're number 3, but I doubt it.
The rating is according to
Sat, 04/17/2010 - 15:51 — magnetParentThe rating is according to greatschools.org. Feel free to look them up your self to see the information they had.
Wake County:
www.greatschools.org/cgi - bin/nc/district-profile/171
Duval County:
www.greatschools.org/cgi - bin/fl/district-profile/16
Here is another article from USAToday comparing graduation rates. I realize it is 4 years old, but just for comparison sake: (remove spaces for link)
www. usatoday. com/news /education / 2006-06-20-dropout-rates_x.htm
Duval County
Sat, 04/17/2010 - 08:12 — Dove314Duval County would actually be similar to Wake. Duval is one of the largest counties geographically in the US. It is a county-wide system and sits with Jacksonville at the center complete with urban, lower SES neighborhoods. Jacksonville is surrounded by a mix of more densely populated suburbs and less densely populated rural areas.
The counties to the south (Clay and St. Johns) are more advanced versions of Johnston County with many people having moved to Green Cove Springs to avoid Duval County, have better schools, and keep higher property values.
An interesting article
Sat, 04/17/2010 - 21:07 — magnetParentAn interesting article written in 2001 - two years after Duval County removed diversity from their policy. Concerns about re-segregating...
Scary if this is where we are heading... (not saying we are or are not, but certainly something to reference and learn from)
www. jacksonville. com/special/deseg/overview.shtml
Todd ... it must not be
Fri, 04/16/2010 - 16:23 — user12345Todd ... it must not be important to you like it is not important to many other here . ... you continue to live here , work here, send your kids to school here ... you are not homeschooling, not in private school, and have not moved to an education mecca like Chapel Hill ... you continue to sit, moan and complain .... so, I have to assume an action guy like you would have made some changes by now if the problem was as serious as you say.
Unfortunately for me, I
Sat, 04/17/2010 - 08:13 — shearertwUnfortunately for me, I moved here 3 years ago, at the peak of the housing market. We talk about moving (to CH etc.) every other week or so but realistically, it would be difficult. I have a great job in the area and my profession is very very specific, not a lot of options in parts of the country I'd like to move to. Private school is just not quite in the budget at the moment but we're considering doing some fairly drastic changes to make that happen. One would be moving to a smaller home but selling the current one is a issue with that as well. Home schooling is a big leap (for us) but we're seriously considering it. Having been here only 3 years and considering those issues I described, I don't think we're just moaning.
Also, I personally believe the WCPSS is a travesty worth pointing out and fighting over whether we're homeschoolers or in private school or even had kids at all. I am a tax payer and I insist my money is spent wisely. Right now it is not.