Don't count on Raleigh to help come up with any of the costs for abandoning the Forest Ridge High School site in favor of a site in Rolesville.
Wake County school administrators had warned that abandoning Forest Ridge, located in northeast Raleigh, would lead to $15.4 million in additional costs. After losing the vote to keep Forest Ridge, the school board minority got Debra Goldman to join them in asking Knightdale, Raleigh, Rolesville, Wake Forest and Wake County to donate $7 million to help offset the additional costs.
Raleigh Mayor Charles Meeker said the request will be discussed at today's City Council meeting. But the response will be a quick no.
Meeker said that Raleigh can't legally donate money to a project that's taking place outside the city. He said the city attorney will amplify why the money can't be given at today's meeting.
But even if it was legal, Meeker said there's not a majority on the City Council who would be willing to give any money.
Meeker has been a critic of the new board majority. His wife, school board member Anne McLaurin, had voted against abandoning Forest Ridge and for requesting the money from the towns.
Comments
Poor Rolesville
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 23:35 — newboard9Stuck with Mayor Eagles to represent them!
the money shredding trio
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 19:25 — meeker_money_sh...>>http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/2632943/
Meeker, Allen and Roper brought in a vendor without competitive bidding. They said it would cost half a mil. Once the deal was signed, it was upped to two and half million. After nearly a year, the project is nowhere near done and its millions over budget. Yessireeeee!! the city has more important uses for our money.
actual magnet costs to county
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 20:18 — snordoneMagnetparent "The magnet "extra resources" are from the federal magnet grants. They are not taking them from other students."
Magnet grants cover the startup of magnet schools, they run for 3 years. After that the county foots the bill for magnets, students get on average $350 more for their education than base students per year.
You are right - the grants
Wed, 04/21/2010 - 06:15 — magnetParentYou are right - the grants run for three years. And then they apply for more grants - like they are trying to do for the next 3 year period with this bogus resolution for diversity that they have drawn up.
Southeast is not a new magnet school, yet they were able to get some of the grant money from the 2007-2010 grant. The MSAP definition includes:
"The Magnet Schools Assistance program provides grants to eligible local educational agencies to establish and operate magnet schools that are operated under a court-ordered or federally approved voluntary desegregation plan."
Where in the budget is that $350 line item? I see line items for in the 2009 budget for extra resource teachers flagged with "from Magnet Grant" footnotes. Other items (IB) were earmarked from Title V funding in the past. If that funding runs out, or if you take away the abililty to get the Magnet Grant funding and it will cost more than that out of county funding.
Sure Magnet schools offer some courses other schools do not. And vice versa. And comparing magnet school to magnet school the classes vary. I am glad there are opportunities for choice in this school system. Every student has different needs and you cannot meet those needs in a cookie cutter system. I can't wait to see the fits y'all are going to raise when these high poverty schools in "Promise Zones" get extra resources and extra funding.
So the MSAP grant pays for 3
Thu, 04/22/2010 - 12:58 — Eric_BSo the MSAP grant pays for 3 magnet schools right now. Where do you think the rest of the money to offer all of the enhanced course offerings and magnet electives comes from? It comes from the WCPSS operating budget of course!
Even Caroline Massengill, the former magnet director for WCPSS, didn't argue this. She admitted at the St. Francis forum that operating costs of magnet schools are borne by WCPSS.
If the creation of Promise Zones means funding is directed toward improving education and services in low income neighborhoods instead of enticing middle class students like magnet schools do, I would say that is money well spent!
That would be enough for Spanish class.
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 21:21 — raleighlauraWho decides which schools become magnets?
Davis Drive Middle offers a
Wed, 04/21/2010 - 06:26 — magnetParentDavis Drive Middle offers a Spanish class and it is not a magnet. Holly Ridge Middle offers Spanish and French. It is not a magnet school. Wake Forest Rolesville MS offers Spanish and a bunch of electives. Not a magnet. How do they do it? hmmmmm.
The BOE
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 22:51 — turnerk1the board
Majority Pays
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 13:56 — jgegbgmgSince the majority Board members voted to stop construction of the Forest Ridge High location let them tell us where they will make up the money that will be lost. According to Tedesco & Malone there's money to be saved and not lost. Yet, they can't show us the figures. I guess when our schools have to close their doors the truth will come out about Margiotta and his four puppets.
Lest we forget...
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 21:44 — dgraffWhen the "former" majority was in power, there was the near purchase of the Apex-Olive-Hume? area in Western Wake. No comps were done, and the cost of the land proposed for a HS was inflated by the seller which, coincidentally had ties to the Wake Ed partnership and the committees that participated in construction, etc.
Where was the outrage then....
I'm sure one of the wake ed old timers remembers this and could post a link.
So On The One Hand
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 12:57 — chaboardeverytime anyone here mentions the site change as an example of the new board not considering fiscal implications before making decisions we get shouted down with cries of "Bogus! Bogus!". On the other hand, even Debra Goldman admits at least $7 million in new costs and tries "cover" that portion of the cost by begging.
So which is it?
Use common sense. How they
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 16:53 — woodstockUse common sense. How they hell can you lose $7M or $15M when the school has only been in the planning stages. It is all about political posturing.
There is money that has been
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 22:45 — danofncThere is money that has been spent to purchase the land. I'm sure they had started getting some permits, traffic studies, etc. I think they had done some site work.
Now, they are starting from scratch, and any money spent on classroom space during the time between the scheduled opening at the original site and the actual opening of the new site is wasted.
I don't claim to know the number, but I know it's not zero.
i can agree with that
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 22:50 — my3centsi can agree with that statement
the 15M is a projected cost
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 22:37 — my3centsthe 15M is a projected cost not a spent cost
Why the appeal for the hand out ?
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 19:48 — Solon77Then why the appeal for the hand out ?
It was voted in by the
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 20:22 — Duhhuh666It was voted in by the minority members plus Ms. Goldman. This was a political ploy and Ms. Goldman went along with it and said (not a quote) sure why not ask. Everyone should have known that none of the towns/cities would reimburse the school system because the prior school board chose a poor location for a school. Nothing but politics.
So, can we just split the
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 11:26 — red_balloonSo, can we just split the school districts town-wise? Let those who live in an area pay for the facilities in that area.
Cary won't kick in a dime.
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 10:31 — CaryCurmudgeonCary won't kick in a dime. Cary also didn't kick in when WCPSS asked for $1.6M for road improvements necessitated by adding modulars to PCHS.
But Cary refused to kick in because they didn't have the money. Raleigh may not have the money either, and they are perfectly within their right to say no on that basis. But saying no because they don't like the new school board's direction only serves to drive wedges between our government bodies.
Supporters of the "old board" policies were utterly silent when it was revealed that the H6 site required millions of additional dollars in road improvements. There were no accusations of fiscal irresponsibility. All of the whining about the new boards (highly-fabricated) waste of $15M has nothing to do with the H6 location, it is simply part of the effort to attack the new board on every action, vote, appearance or statement they make.
I'm glad you are now embracing fiscal responsibility. Where were you when the schools wasted millions on the original H6 site? Where were you when they wasted millions on unneeded MYR conversions? Where were you when they made a costly decision to move Broughton's magnet status? Where were you when the old board kept giving Del Burns salary increases, even as our academic results deteriorated. Where were you when enormous sums were poured into our magnet programs, only to yield the same failed results for minority and ED students?
Supporters of the "old
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 22:47 — my3centsNo, staff came up with the
Wed, 04/21/2010 - 07:51 — CaryCurmudgeonNo, staff came up with the "cost." The same staff that made a poor original recommendation on the H6 site.
The $7M (?) in ADDITIONAL road improvements for the original H6 site were above and beyond what that same staff had estimated in the selection process. Whether they are trying to cover their behinds or not with their $15M estimate, it is clear that their track record for estimating cost is checkered at best.
And, unless you are a site engineer and have fully assessed the alternative sites, you cannot say that the "additional" money for road improvements would have been spent anyway.
Ahem
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 13:14 — chaboardare perfectly within their right to say no on that basis. But saying no
because they don't like the new school board's direction only serves to
drive wedges between our government bodies.
That's a pretty disingenuous way of putting it. Saying no to wasteful optional spending options chosen for political reasons would hardly translate to "because they don't like...direction". The new board knowingly chose a more expensive option and is begging for money from others to cover it. It's perfectly valid for the others to say "Huh? Do I look stupid?"
A responsible board would've figured out the costs and revenue sources BEFORE making a decision.....
“But Cary refused to kick
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 10:47 — user12345“ButCary
Did not have the money? … they are rich … they are the only town running a surplus now … ugh … did not have the money …
“Where were you when the schools wasted millions on the original H6 site? “
When was that site picked? … ten years ago ... maybe H8, H9, and H10 sites are poorly placed and I will be asking you about them ten years from now.
“Where were you when they wasted millions on unneeded MYR conversions?”
If they are not needed than they should immediately reverse all of them now … oh, they haven’t … maybe they are needed?
“Where were you when they made a costly decision to move Broughton's magnet status? “
I fought that and thought it was a stupid idea … not because of the cost but because it takes so long to build an IB program and we should expanding the program not just moving it around. I would have preferred to see Millbrook added as another IB school.
Uh...
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 11:46 — Bob_Sconce2008, originally.
I'll note that in August 2009, the previous board voted to delay the opening of H6 by two years, even though '[m]ore capital funding may be needed for mobile and modular classrooms." Part of those costs are being improperly attributed to the new board's decision to choose a different site.
Check your facts
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 22:35 — my3centsI think the new board is the one that delayed the H6
Not to nitpick...
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 11:38 — ego7601The H6 site was not picked 10 years ago. The determination that the area needed a high school didn't happen until Jan 2007. At that time it was noted that "Northeastern Wake" needed a HS, but no land had been identified for it yet. The land itself wasn't available until 2006 when the previous owner died and WCPSS didn't purchase it until October 2008.
Also in Jan 2007, the board noted that H7 was to be built in SW Wake and H8 in SE Wake. H7 land was acquired in Dec 2008 and backs up to the new 540- wonder if that will pose a problem the school board didn't foresee (noise, traffic, etc.). I've yet to see anything about H8.
In other words, "fiscal
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 11:05 — CaryCurmudgeonIn other words, "fiscal responsibility" isn't an issue for you unless you disagree with those in power. That's what I figured. Don't feel bad, you're not alone.
Producing above average
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 11:33 — user12345Producing above average students as rock bottom cost per student is pretty financially savy to me. I can not believe you think that Raleigh should pay for a school in another town.
"I can not believe you think
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 12:38 — CaryCurmudgeon"I can not believe you think that Raleigh should pay for a school in
another town."
Are you getting enough fiber? Raleigh students will go to this school. So if the board picks another H6 site that happens to be in Raleigh then the city should go ahead and pay the $7M, is that what you're saying?
I am saying the City of
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 14:02 — user12345I am saying the City of Raleigh has no obligation to provide WCPSS money ... that is a country responibility ... they can choose to give charity if they think it is in their interest like Cary does (build school and community center together to share tennis courts). How much did Rolesville give to educate their children in Raleigh schools over the last 50 years? zero? If H6 is in Raleigh and they want to help out WCPSS, good for them ... but to give Raleigh taxpayer money to Rolesville to build a HS in Roleville would be stupid. Wasn't it said that moving the site was going to save money anyway so there really is no need for more funds anyway.
You just made a good
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 14:09 — CaryCurmudgeonYou just made a good argument for breaking up the school system, that way the munipalities only pay for their own kids.
Since Cary, Panther Creek,
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 14:57 — user12345Since Cary, Panther Creek, Green Hope and Middle Creek are in the Town of Cary limits, I see making the rest of Western Wake pay out the nose for tuition to Cary schools.
You realize not everybody in
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 14:35 — magnetParentYou realize not everybody in Wake County lives in a municipality.
You seriously need to give
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 11:57 — red_balloonYou seriously need to give that a rest. You have no clue as to how much it costs for a MPES student vs. a Fuller student. Ditto for other school comparisons. Buried in the average figure are disparities. Given that WW probably has a fair number of involved and educated parents, it is likely that the average dollar spend is lower in WW schools to achieve the same set of results.
What you term financially savvy is actually a poor deal in WW when you look at the expenditure vs. the return.
So there is something
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 13:50 — user12345So there is something magical about Wake that is different than every other school system in the country that allows us to put us above average kids at rock bottom cost? We are the only place in the country with educated, loving, involved parents? So no other place has the kind of parents Wake has which allows government to invest so little? What are you smoking to think Wake Co. is so unique that we can spend so little and still produce ... is it the water? Maybe we should export our water as a cost saving feature? I am not sure what your problems is but you should be working toward getting the same funding for our kids every other place in the US has.
The magnet students and F&Rs
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 14:42 — red_balloonThe magnet students and F&Rs and anyone else fortunate enough to curry your favor are getting extra resources from other students. When you keep droning about an above average education at rock bottom
prices remember that it would have been utter nonsense had it not been for the price imposed on the remaining students. So cut the gibberish and realize that your fanciful world has a price that the 'diversity' lovers fail to acknowledge.
The magnet "extra resources"
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 14:51 — magnetParentThe magnet "extra resources" are from the federal magnet grants. They are not taking them from other students.
I believe that is also the case for the F&R (federal monies as well). Getting rid of F&R and magnet does not roll that money into the budget.
Other than that each school gets $X per student, magnet or not, F&R or not, to use as that school sees fit.
Would you mind perusing the
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 18:53 — red_balloonWould you mind perusing the 2009 financial data for WCPSS? I deduced MSAP was $3m out of a billion plus dollars in operating costs. Is this incorrect? If correct, are you suggesting that it only costs $3m extra to run all the magnet programs in WCPSS?
The magnet "extra resources"
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 16:49 — Eric_BThat is not true. The federal MSAP grants only pay for magnet program startup costs. Operating costs for magnet schools come out of the normal WCPSS operating budget.
More than just startup cost
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 21:59 — magnetParentThe federal MSAP grants are not only for startup costs.
In 2007:
WCPSS was awarded $8,320,469 from the U.S. Department of Education’s Magnet Schools Assistance Program (MSAP) to significantly revise three existing magnet schools: Southeast Raleigh Magnet High School, Garner Magnet High School, and East Garner Magnet Middle School.
These are not startup grants. WCPSS applies for the MSAP grant every three years. They have been awarded 7 grants so far.
Also, there are operating costs for every school. The MSAP description says:
The Magnet Schools Assistance program provides grants to eligible local educational agencies to establish and operate magnet schools that are operated under a court-ordered or federally approved voluntary desegregation plan.
If there are extra costs for any school, outside of the usual allotment, a line item is added to the budget. For instance, in 2006 Southeast had a line item to improve their technology. The reasoning given for this budget item was "At this point the technology magnet schools are woefully behind the new nonmagnet schools." I see nothing wrong with using local funding for this improvement. There were also some items regarding IB teacher certification - most of which was covered under Title V federal funds.
There are some things non-magnet schools have that are not offered at some magnet schools - for example, Centennial and Moore Square do not have any competitive sports. Perhaps, for fairness sake, no middle schools should have sports because these middle schools do not? I really hope we don't end up with cookie cutter schools. Magnet schools are not stealing from the non-magnet schools wrt the local funds of the budget. Funds are allocated as appropriate for the whole school system.
Ok, maybe startup costs was
Thu, 04/22/2010 - 12:54 — Eric_BOk, maybe startup costs was the wrong term. The grant is used to "start up" new magnet programs.
You can call it "startup" or "revise" whatever wording you want to use, but it is meant to create a new or different program. The grant pays for the operational costs over the 3 year startup period, then the grant lapses and the costs are borne by WCPSS.
I believe there are some
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 14:48 — danofncI believe there are some non-magnet schools that aren't high F&R that are doing quite well.
I'm not sure what "price" is imposed on those kids.
Wiley electives:12 WW ES:
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 18:56 — red_balloonWiley electives:12 WW ES: 0.
So, you either don't know about this or contend that the discrimination is immaterial.
not 12
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 20:39 — turnerk1Wiley no longer has 12 electives per year for 3-5. Four were cut starting this year. K-2 has never had 12 electives.
My information is from
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 21:04 — red_balloonMy information is from earlier this year. From your post it appears the score is:
Magnet: 8 Non-Magnet: 0
A pretty uneven field I daresay.
There's a reason magnet
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 21:17 — danofncThere's a reason magnet schools are magnet schools.
We are fortunate that in WC
Wed, 04/21/2010 - 09:30 — red_balloonWe are fortunate that in WC people are in a frenzy over the loss of their version of 'diversity'. By all means let the magnets keep the magnet status. But that doesn't mean that the thousands of non-magnet students have lesser educational needs or their parents scaled back aspirations for their children.
Yes, and that reason was to promote "healthy" schools-
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 21:27 — raleighlauraNow that we're really interested in educating and enriching ALL students, not just lottery winners, kids who live in the right subdivisions, or kids who's parents can afford ITB real estate, wouldn't it be good to take some of that money and spread it around? Instead of your school having 8 electives and mine not having ANY, we could let yours have six and mine have two. Compromise doesn't have to mean "you lose so I can win!"
Aren't there kids right now
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 21:36 — danofncAren't there kids right now who can't get into OTB application schools because of crowding issues?
If you take those schools, and give them a couple of electives that are currently in magnets, all you do is decrease the number of people who want to go to magnet schools. That, in turn, would increase the crowding at certain OTB schools, wouldn't it? And also leave some ITB schools very much underutilized as well, right?
I can't believe how some people take it as fact that certain magnet schools are only magnets because of political favors, without any doubt whatsoever, but at the same time think people are crazy if they have any doubt that the current majority is looking out for everyone.
Cary did...
Tue, 04/20/2010 - 10:39 — sachivalayCary did contribute for Mills Park schools. Rolesville needs to do the same. You can't blame Raleigh for not kicking in and you can't absolve Rolesville not kicking in.