There are a number of people who don't think the Wake County school board's efforts to get more students into Algebra I in middle school is a good idea.
During last week's board meeting, N.C. State Professor Jim Martin said he fully supports that "nothing but competency" be used in assigning students to Algebra I. He said it's "unacceptable" to make placement decisions in Algebra I based on race or economic status.
"However I must counter the myth that is being perpetuated," Martin quickly added. "You don't need algebra in middle school to be competitive in application to college."
Supporters of the new guidelines designed to place more qualified students into Algebra I point to the class being a gateway to future high school, college and life success.
Martin pointed to his own case. He said he hadn't taken algebra until 9th grade and now he's a successful chemistry teacher. He said he benefited from not having been rushed to take algebra earlier.
"I am frankly dismayed as a chemistry professor at the lack of competency in algebra that many of the students coming to my general chemistry and even junior and senior level of chemistry have," Martin said. "I've talked to math professors at N.C. State and they tell me the same thing.
We're pushing students to the mathematics curriculum far too fast. Technically, aspects of a curriculum can be covered in an accelerated approach. But learning and understanding requires time with material. It is understanding with algebra that we need for later success."
Martin drew laughs from the audience when he used an algebra analogy to take shots at school board members who've equated the use of student achievement in the Alves student assignment plan as a quota.
Martin said that if you understand algebra, then you recognize the need to consider all variables and to label them to solve the equation and find the solution.
"Let's create efforts to develop an understanding of algebra. not rush our kids and others through a superficial understanding," Martin closed to applause from the audience.
Martin has been a frequent public critic of the school board's changes in student assignment policy. He's the father of an Enloe High School student.
Speaking of the new math guidelines, school board member John Tedesco and some members of his ED task force met last week with interim Superintendent Donna Hargens and David Holdzkom, assistant superintendent for evaluation and research, to go over the the placement data.
More to come later...
Comments
I just clicked on the
Tue, 11/16/2010 - 22:15 — klanders65I just clicked on the "placement data" link in the story above. It is the same document presented by Holdzkom and distributed at the ED Taskforce meeting. What happened at that meeting? Did anyone explain why Branch's figures had thousands more kids meeting the EVAAS qualifications than Holdzkom provided details on? And did they report numbers separately for algebra and pre-algebra?
Why is it so hard to get information that makes sense? You would think they would be able to report X kids are qualified for 8th grade algebra, using the EVAAS criteria, and Y kids are enrolled. Then give a breakdown by race and school. That aught to be just simple. That might include enrolled kids who did not meet EVAAS criteria, but would give us some bottom-line sense. Until Holdzkom started explaining the details, things seemed like we were almost getting real information from Branch.
That's because there's not
Tue, 11/16/2010 - 23:33 — KeungHui (author)That's because there's not officially any new data yet. Some of the members of the ED task force evidently presented their own data. I'm trying to get an official copy.
""However I must counter the
Tue, 11/16/2010 - 21:53 — Apexter""However I must counter the myth that is being perpetuated," Martin quickly added. "You don't need algebra in middle school to be competitive in application to college."
Supporters of the new guidelines designed to place more qualified students into Algebra I point to the class being a gateway to future high school, college and life success.
Martin pointed to his own case. He said he hadn't taken algebra until 9th grade and now he's a successful chemistry teacher. He said he benefited from not having been rushed to take algebra earlier."
He's right in some aspects of this, but he's offering "expert" testimony on something he doesn't understand in other aspects.
I agree that we may be rushing some kids by trying to get them to take Algebra I too soon in middle schools. I believe that Algebra does require a different way of thinking than simple arithmetic, and many kids may lack the maturity to be tackling it in middle school. They may be able to tough it through, but might not get the full benefit of it at that point. Also, with 4 years of math required in high school, by taking Algebra I in middle school, some kids may be setting themselves up to take higher level maths than they really want or need in high school.
However, a middle school math teacher (klander?) explained here before that WCPSS has specific math pathways in high school. While I had always assumed that taking Algebra in 9th grade wouldn't really make much difference from taking it in 8th grade ---- only delaying their course on the pathway by one year ---- it ends up that the math pathway did not see 8th grade Algebra and 9th grade Algebra as equivalent courses. If you didn't start out in middle school onto the advanced math track, you couldn't change course and get there in high school.
In my opinion, there were 2 parts that were broken in the old math equation. First, I think it's a poor system that uses a decision made at the end of 5th grade (since that is when the middle school math track is decided) to determine a student's math track throughout the rest of their school career. And, second, I think it's repugnant that earlier policies had were based on systemic bigotry that were denying a lot of potentially qualified students to take take Algebra I in middle school.
I think both of the two broken policies needed to be addressed. I don't know if it has happened systemwide or not, but at Open House earlier this year, I heard that our high school has abandoned the math pathway that only allowed entry through 8th grade Algebra. I think this is a very important fix that needed to be made in the system.
I also think that ending the institutional bigotry that kept qualified kids out of 8th grade Algebra I was a huge step forward from the past. However, I think that through good intentions, we may have ended up with putting some kids onto fast forward on math in 8th grade who probably didn't want or need it. I feel the best system overall is to adjust the math pathway in high school to allow 9th grade algebra I students access to the higher maths, AND to make sure that that the students who want to and are qualified to take Algebra I in 8th grade are allowed to, abandoning the past bigotry of a system that would predict failure for a student based on their race or socioeconomic level.
And, Mr. Martin, I too wasn't able to take algebra until 9th grade, and my high school had Algebra I, Geometery, Algebra II, and Advanced Math as its most advanced math pathway. However, just because you and I followed that pathway in high school doesn't mean that kids today face the same course selections we had in high school. Before you pontificate on a subject, how about educating yourself on how the system actually works.
I agree with what you say
Tue, 11/16/2010 - 22:06 — klanders65I agree with what you say here. And I have no problem with kids taking algebra in high school. My problem is that 9th grade algebra puts them on a different path that very often leads to having to go back to 8th grade algebra and starting over once they get to college. This is called "College Algebra." College Algebra is 8th Grade Algebra. I am glad to hear at least one high school is going to let kids who take 9th grade algebra and do well go on to the advanced versions of geometry and Algebra II. This should be a system policy. But like everything else it will be different at every school and depend on the personalities at the schools.
Personally, I don't think
Tue, 11/16/2010 - 18:08 — user12345Personally, I don't think think Algebra placement is the most important part of this discussion ... the fact that we still live in a society where a segment of the population is being actively discriminated against may amaze many who think that was banned in the 1960's and we live in utopia now. What is important to me are all the other aspects of public education that might also be discriminating against minorities and the poor. What are they? Do we have to wait for another SAS report to find and address them? Is this going to be a 50 year event before we find and fixed all of them? Algebra placement is just an example where we can clearly illustrate the problem with data skeptics require but it may only be the tip of the iceberg.
Slightly OT
Tue, 11/16/2010 - 15:38 — Dove314Mr. Sutton mentioned a Schott Report. Yes We Can: The 2010 Schott 50 State Report on Black Males in Public Education, August, 2010 Here is the link:
schottfoundation.org/publications/schott-2010-black-male-report.pdf
Conclusions: The American educational system is systemically failing Black males. Out of the 48 states reporting, Black males are the least likely to graduate from high school in 33 states, Black and Latino males are tied for the least likely in four states, with Latino males being the least likely in an additional four states.
To add insult to injury, Black Male students are punished more severely for similar infractions than their White peers. They are not given the same opportunities to participate in classes with enriched educational offerings. They are more frequently inappropriately removed from the general education classroom due to misclassifications by the Special Education policies and practices of schools and districts. By Grade 8, relatively few are proficient in reading and, finally, as a consequence of these deficiencies in educational practice, less than half graduate with their cohort.
The great variation in these factors, among districts and states, indicates that the driver is not individual students, but the adults responsible for the policies and practices of the educational systems in which they study. In our democracy, a child’s access to the resources necessary to have a fair and substantive opportunity to learn should not depend on the zip code in which he resides. America cannot be globally competitive in the 21st century and achieve the President’s goal of being a global leader in post secondary education attainment when we are able to identify by race, ethnicity, gender and zip code who is more likely to have an opportunity to learn.
Yes We Can seeks to provide the platform for federal, state and local governments, parents, faith partners, community organizers and advocates to institutionalize the comprehensive plans and policies necessary to provide all students an opportunity to learn. Building one America, educationally strong, is our best shot at giving the US and its youth an opportunity for success in the 21st century.
Thanks
Sat, 11/20/2010 - 12:34 — LongtimeLurkerRelevant
needs a clue
Tue, 11/16/2010 - 14:07 — loriac"You don't need algebra in middle school to be competitive in application to college."
Maybe Prof. Martin should check out the high school offerings, and realize that Algebra is used as a gateway class. He may have gotten away with Algebra in 9th grade way back when, but no more. Now, waiting until HS for Algebra means a student won't be able to take as many advanced courses, limiting their college options.
BTW, WCPSS was preventing qualified kids from taking algebra - quite a different point than rushing kids before they are ready.
Just amazing. Every year
Tue, 11/16/2010 - 14:18 — CaryCurmudgeonJust amazing. Every year we read studies about how American students are far behind their European and Asian peers in math and science, and this guy wants us to make their curriculum less demanding.
I don't think he's saying to
Tue, 11/16/2010 - 14:40 — danofncI don't think he's saying to make it less demanding.
I think what he's saying is not to worry so much about getting them into as many classes as fast as possible, and instead teach them the concepts so that they understand them better when they are taking the higher level classes.
...
Tue, 11/16/2010 - 16:57 — SideburnsI thought the whole point of the EVAAS report was that qualified children were not being placed properly -- not that WCPSS was pushing kids ahead as fast as possible. This is what Mr. Martin is missing.
I don't think Mr. Martin is
Tue, 11/16/2010 - 17:35 — danofncI don't think Mr. Martin is missing anything. I think he is saying that the threshold for saying a kid is qualified should be 90% instead of 70%.
I think he'd rather have kids in his classes who have been through less math, but understand it better, than have kids who have been through more math but don't fully grasp the concepts.
How much of a coincidence could it be?
Thu, 11/18/2010 - 20:48 — LongtimeLurkerHow much of a coincidence could it be that Mr. Martin decided to pipe up with these opinions about how 90% should be the threshold for Algebra placement? This happened just days after the still confidential meeting where Tedesco and ED Task Force committee members met with Hargens, Holdzkom, Branch, etc. to show how bad the mismatch is between EVAAS and Holdzkom's representation of EVAAS.
The rumors coming out of that meeting are that the figures Holdzkom presented to the ED task force "lost" many thousands of children from the rolls of EVAAS determined elgibility before figuring the percentages on who actually was placed. We also hear that during the meeting Holdzkom repeatedly referred to 90% as the proper qualifying placement threshold.
This new strategy of denial is no doubt because the district was unable to show that even a respectable minimum of low income and minority EVAAS designated children were placed from the 70-90% range. Time to pretend that the specifications were something else...
Then Martins' testimonial followed just a couple of days on the heels of that event and exactly echo that evasive strategy - that's an accident?
Of course, one problem has been that WakeForest/Rolesville already reports that ALL the children they placed using EVAAS were successful (did they place at 80%?).
So, if we ever do see these placement figures, we can expect to hear it minimized that both the total N and the placement numbers were intensely monkeyed with. And we can expect a covering action claiming that 90% is the proper threshold for cut off.
The "new" gateway" will probably be 7th grade Algebra (although it can be anything at all - they would do better to make it a less easily quantified subject). But the new gate isn't ready yet. That will take a few more years - although construction is intense - I hear that WCPSS kids are flooding into 7th grade Algebra. So its really important to slow the flow of qualified kids through this now-damaged gateway for a few more years.
Where ever you draw the
Tue, 11/16/2010 - 18:34 — klanders65Where ever you draw the line, it should be based on something. And all students who qualify with the criteria set should be enrolled with some individual exceptions. Right now, the line is 70 and enrollment for those who meet that criteria is racially biased.
If you want the criteria to be 90, first have that be based on something other than your gut feeling that we are teaching too many kids quality math and need to cut back. Have it be based on the fact that kids under 90 have certain problems or something. Something real.
Then, discuss and decide whether if you make the line 90, should we continue to have kids who take 9th grade algebra take no advanced or honors math? Or should we let those in the 80-90 range take honors and ap only do so a year later?
What percent of the low income, minority, and SWD students who met the 90% cut are in 8th grade algebra right now? And how does this compare with that group of not-low-income white students?
If it is fine to have kids wait until 9th grade, then have the not-low-income white kids wait also.
Do we know how many middle schools have added more 7th grade algebra classes now that low income and minority kids are allowed in the 8th grade algebra when they are qualified? This could be one way that letting qualified low income and minority students take 8th grade algebra results in rushing kids into advanced math. The upper income white kids then have to rush into 7th grade algebra to stay ahead of them, whether they are ready or not.
Facts Not In Evidence
Tue, 11/16/2010 - 21:51 — fiveblindmiceI can't really follow what
Tue, 11/16/2010 - 22:02 — klanders65I can't really follow what you are saying here, but if you are suggesting there is racial bias in the model, you are thinking of the wrong model. EVAAS isn't racially biased. That was the Effectiveness Index, and thanks to J Tedesco, that racially biased model is no longer being used. And thanks to J Tedesco, qualified kids might eventually get access to the math classes for which they meet the criteria.
Klanders said "I can't
Wed, 11/17/2010 - 15:03 — LongtimeLurkerKlanders said "I can't really follow what you are saying here..."
What is the chance that is an accident? Confusion is what this guy does.
Refreshing to hear from those who work with students...
Tue, 11/16/2010 - 13:56 — heylisajohnIt has been too rare to hear from those who work with and understand students. Thanks Professor for stepping forward. I wish public school teachers in Wake County felt safe enough to step forward and speak up about potential changes in the school systems.
Then you should watch some
Tue, 11/16/2010 - 14:04 — CaryCurmudgeonThen you should watch some school board meetings. Every meeting there are teachers who step up to the podium and vilify the school board.
Yes, but...
Wed, 11/17/2010 - 09:13 — petehsYes, but was that ever happening before this new board was instated? In private conversations with many teachers, I have learned that under Del Burns, et al, not many of them would have the job security to stand up and criticize the crazy assignment policy under the old Policy 6200.
Sure, it's much easier to stand up and throw stones when you have the media and the status quo behind you.
I'm just wondering, is
Tue, 11/16/2010 - 13:05 — shearertwI'm just wondering, is anybody having trouble getting accepted into NCSU?
With all due respect to Prof Martin, I don't think that NCSU is a place where a lot of top notch kids are competing for admission.
behind the times
Tue, 11/16/2010 - 17:17 — turnerk1Perhaps shearetw you are a bit behind the times as to the kind of student that is accepted to NCSU these days. When I was younger (oh these many years ago) NCSU was not considered that hard to get into, but no more. The average GPA is 4.23 for incoming freshmen, with an average SAT score of 1200. 70% of the accepted students are in the top 20% of their class in high school. This year almost 100 Valedictorians started at NCSU. I'm quite sure my husband, who attended NCSU, couldn't get into the school today.
turnerk1, Don't get me
Wed, 11/17/2010 - 09:04 — shearertwturnerk1,
Don't get me wrong, I think NCSU is a decent school and I've have no problem if my children decided to go there. However, the fact of the matter is that NCSU is NOT a top tier school that top tier students have to compete with each other to get it. Is it difficult for an average student to get in there, perhaps, but that not what we're talking about here. We're taling about top tier students who are being placed in advanced classes and may one day want to compete for slots at Davidson, Princeton, Harvard, Duke, MIT, etc. There's nothing wrong with being the top of your class and going to NCSU but that's not really the same thing as competing for admission at a top tier school.
This isn't about the top
Wed, 11/17/2010 - 09:36 — danofncThis isn't about the top notch students. I don't think anyone is concerned about whether or not a kid who is going to end up at MIT is in the right 8th grade math.
People are saying that not having 8th grade algebra keeps kids out of good colleges. This professor is saying that is not true.
Ok...
Wed, 11/17/2010 - 13:36 — Bob_SconceSo there's some hyperbole going on -- not getting into 8th grade Algebra, by itself, will not mean that a kid who otherwise would have grown to be a Titan of Wall Street will end up as a bum panhandling at traffic intersections.
But, there are advantages to being in Algebra at 8th grade, and those advantages do translate to college acceptance. For example, 8th grade Algebra makes it easier to take AP math classes later, and those AP classes translate directly into a higher GPA. And, that higher GPA definitely affects college admissions -- 78% of UNC's entering class was in the top 10% of their high school classes; you don't get there by not taking advanced classes.
Wouldn't the higher GPA
Wed, 11/17/2010 - 17:45 — danofncWouldn't the higher GPA assumption only be true if the kid made the same grade in the AP class that they would have made in the non-AP class?
If a kid takes an AP class and makes a C, wouldn't they end up with a similar GPA if they took an Honors course and made a B? If they Honors course is the proper "speed" for them, aren't they just as well off in that class?
Sure...
Thu, 11/18/2010 - 11:30 — Bob_SconceBut, consider a counter-factual: Kid gets a high A in the honors class, when he could have gotten a low A in the AP class. I'm not claiming that 8th grade algebra is appropriate for every kid. But, some things are out of reach, at least much harder to get, if you don't take it.
Not only does 8th gr alg
Wed, 11/17/2010 - 17:17 — jenmanNot only does 8th gr alg lead to more advanced math classes, it also affects science classes as well. I just looked at the Wakefield HS website and was surprised to see the very different pathways for math and science based on which math class you take in 9th grade.
Wait a minute now! We
Wed, 11/17/2010 - 13:16 — shearertwWait a minute now! We should be concerned that a kid who is poor or of a different race but has the potential to end up at MIT is "locked out" of that path in the 8th grade just due to those characteristics. That child may appear "average" at that moment just because they are bored, don't have the proper motivation, haven't been challenged, etc. I don't want a system that discriminates against those children and prevents them from ever reaching their potential. You, I think, are assuming every kid who made it into MIT or excelled in math/science later on in-life was already identifiable in the 8th grade. I'm trying to tell you that is NOT the case. Not taking Algebra I in the 8th grade may very well make the difference on whether that child takes an average path, a less than average path or something extraordinary.
Sadder still...
Wed, 11/17/2010 - 13:49 — lferreriSadder still, the decision is really being made earlier than that. The focus has been on 8th grade (and rightfully so since Algebra is a gateway course). But actually failing to place a student into Pre-Algebra has been designated to be a "compelling reason" to deny access to 8th grade Algebra. And there is no objective criterion used for placement in Advanced 6th grade math which likely helps a student to qualify for Pre-Algebra. So the decision is often being made about eleven year olds!
Doesn't it also depend on
Wed, 11/17/2010 - 09:22 — loriacDoesn't it also depend on the major? NCSU is certainly known for the vet school, design school, textiles and course engineering and programming. I used to recruit for our company, and for technology students our first stop was NCSU, not UNC CH or Duke. The students were top notch.
I don't disagree with you at
Wed, 11/17/2010 - 13:23 — shearertwI don't disagree with you at all on this statement, however, the Professor didn't make that distinction either which is part of the stupidity of his statement really. Perhaps Algebra I in the 8th grade is not necessary for a future drama major, but if a kid is trying to get into the engineering program, there may be a slightly different answer. The ENTIRE point is that 8th grade Algebra I placement CAN influence the path a kid may take in life down the road. There are a TON of unknowns here. What we simply don’t want to do is LOCK kids out of certain paths just because they are black or poor. It is impossible to tell what a kid may do down the road in the 8th grade. If they can potentially succeed in Algebra I, what is the harm of giving them a shot at it?
agree
Wed, 11/17/2010 - 13:44 — loriacyes - i agree w/ you wholeheartedly. It makes me sick that some kids were put into remedial classes rather than algebra.
Yes.
Wed, 11/17/2010 - 09:36 — Dove314Definitely depends upon the major. Which is why it is helpful to have some idea of career plans when applying. No point in applying to a private school, the state flagship university, or the Ivy League if the best rated school for the major you need is local, public, and cheaper.
So...
Tue, 11/16/2010 - 17:27 — Bob_SconceAccording to US News, they're ranked 111th in the country, tied with University of Sourth Carolina and a couple of other schools. Acceptance rate is 55%.
It's a very inexpensive public university in a state where just about every college-bound student goes to a state school. That tends to skew its admissions.
"It's a very inexpensive
Tue, 11/16/2010 - 17:39 — danofnc"It's a very inexpensive public university in a state where just about every college-bound student goes to a state school."
I didn't think you were a fan of blanket statements.
Is there actually data to suggest this is fact, or is it just an assumption on your part?
Heh...
Tue, 11/16/2010 - 18:07 — Bob_SconceWhich fact?
NCSU's in-state tuition is $3,264.(I think per semester; it wasn't clear) By comparison, Penn State's varies between $7k and $9K per semester.
As to the "just about every college-bound student goes to a state school," I only have my personal experience. Due to some youth work I used to do, I've known a lot of graduating seniors and a ginormous portion of them went to colleges in the UNC system. A lot of that, I suspect, has to do with that $3,264 number: graduating seniors in the state have to choose between going to a UNC-system school, or paying between 5x and 15x as much at some other school, and that price differential is hard to beat.
By "ginormous," I mean much higher than what I experienced graduating from high school in Pennsylvania, where (I'm guessing) only ~ 1/2 the class went to a state school. If your choice is, say,
Unfortunately, I couldn't find any data that said where graduating students go.
Don't get me wrong -- NCSU is a decent school. I'm just pointing out that it attracts a lot of good students on price, not academics. If NCSU were priced the same as, say, Wake Forest or Duke, do you think it'd attract 100 valedictorians?
Here's a listing of all UNC
Tue, 11/16/2010 - 22:35 — danofncHere's a listing of all UNC schools tuition for 10-11.
http://www.northcarolina.edu/finance/tuition/2010-11_tuitfees.pdf
I think that Penn State may be a poor example, because a lot of people there think it is more expensive than it needs to be. Plus, I think part of the reason it is so expensive is because it isn't as supported by PA as the UNC system is by NC.
Look, I'm really not interested in arguing about colleges.
Instead, shouldn't we just say that if most NC high school students end up at UNC system colleges, it makes sense to listen to what a professor at one of those colleges is saying about those students?
Thanks for providing the
Tue, 11/16/2010 - 23:39 — CaryCurmudgeonThanks for providing the link, NC State is on our short list. Sure, we should listent to the opinion of one professor, but we need to keep in mind that this man is one of thousands of professors. I know one NC State professor was a strong supporter of implementing EVAAS, so the input is 50/50.
Admissions
Tue, 11/16/2010 - 23:13 — lferreriI was a faculty member at two different UNC system schools. In general, faculty are not involved in the details of the admissions process. Therefore, I wouldn't automatically accept the opinion of a professor about what is needed to qualify for admission.
In addition, I am puzzled by the professor's assertion that students lack in-depth knowledge of algebra due to an acceleration of their coursework. The point of the SAS report was to indicate that North Carolina is doing the opposite by failing to place students in advanced courses when they could, in fact, do well in them. It seems more likely that the lack of understanding comes from students not having been in challenging courses, rather than from having been placed in those courses too early.
My general observation about my students was that they were far more likely to have been unchallenged in their pre-college courses, not that they had been in over their heads.
Pfft...
Tue, 11/16/2010 - 12:16 — Bob_SconceMartin, apparently, is 46 years old. The college admissions game has changed a lot since when he went through it in 1982. His statements would have been a lot more convincing had they come from somebody in the admissions department at NCSU instead of the Chemistry department.
It Depends
Tue, 11/16/2010 - 14:05 — Solon77I agree students need to be placed at the level they are qualified for - regardless. However, the rest depends on what one wants to do. Outside of engineering, computer science or math, all one needs in college is calculus and statistics. Pursuit of careers in medicine, business, teaching, marketing, sales, legal .... require other skills. Each one of us is wired differently and not everyone is destine to be a math genius not matter how much teaching effort is put into it. To the kid who wants to be a world class sprinter with a time of 20 sec in the 100m, no amount of coaching and training is going to get the kid to 10 sec. To that end, I rather like the European philosophy of determining by the 1/2 year of high school whether it is the university path or trades.
If Algebra I is so important that every student needs to take it in 8th grade, I would expect the families in Apex would be raising a fuss. Apex (26%)and Salem(35%) middle are near the bottom in terms of % of total 8th grade students taking Algebra I . These are rather affluent schools with very little if any impact to busing. Compare this to West Millbrook (44%), Ligon (79%) and Carroll (36%) - high F&R% and high minority.
BTW - earlier this year my daughter was accepted to NCSU having only taken through pre-calculus. In fact she was accepted to all of the schools she applied to, including Carolina, Clemson, University of South Carolina to name a few.
So...
Tue, 11/16/2010 - 14:48 — Bob_SconceI was at a presentation a few years back (put on, I think, by CED) with a Chinese Entrepreneur who was asked how important it was for US students to be studying Chinese. His answer was that it was not important since everybody in China is busy learning English, and suggested that US students would be better off learning more math and science.
So, I think "we" should be pushing kids more into math and technology majors. True, there are those who just don't have the chops. But, there are others who could have the chops and are just ill-served by their education, so they never capitalize on that ability.