The school district got some bad financial news earlier this month.
As noted in today's article, Wake and other school districts that are home to charter schools are now figuring how much more money they owe to comply with a state court ruling. At issue is how it seems Wake and other districts undercounted the amount of money it needed to turn over to charter schools.
With 13 charter schools and more than 5,000 charter students this year, the price tag could be big in Wake, especially if charters ask for the money retroactively. Wake is still calculating the amount it owes.
Five charter schools had sued the Charlotte-Mecklenburg school system alleging that the district was shorting them of money. Both a Superior Court judge and the N.C. Court of Appeals sided with the charter schools.
The final nail was hammered this month when the state Supreme Court refused to hear Charlotte's appeal.
School districts act as the passthrough for local money to charter schools. But Charlotte didn't count certain pots of money for determining the average per pupil amount to forward to charters.
For instance, Charlotte didn't factor into the formula the money taken from the fund balance to balance the budget.
Here's an example of how it could play out in Wake.
Wake based its per-pupil amount for charter schools on the county appropriation. But it excluded other amounts in the local current expense fund.
For instance, in the last fiscal year Wake used the $310.5 million county appropriation figure to determine a per-pupil amount of $2,178.
Wake probably should have used the local current expense fund amount of $343.2 million.
We're probably talking about around $1 million a year more owed to Wake charter schools. Richard Vinroot, the former Charlotte mayor who represented the charter schools in the lawsuit, said any charter school can ask for three years worth of money so Wake's debt could go higher.
While school officials are complaining about the court ruling, school board member Ron Margiotta takes a different view. Margiotta, who backs lifting the state charter cap, said the charter schools are helping Wake save on capital costs.
"If they haven’t been getting the money they deserve, they should get it," Margiotta said.
But Margiotta said he'd like to forward any retroactive payments over time instead of in one lump sum.
Comments
carson--I think you asked
Thu, 11/26/2009 - 16:10 — jenmancarson--I think you asked whether or not magnets are a win/win. They are a huge win to the students who get into them and whose families can work out the travel arrangements.
They are a detriment to the rest of us in many ways. The rest of our schools are prohibited from offering anything that can be seen as competing with the magnet offerings. No band or orchestra in elem school, no foreign language more than once a week in elem school. As Bob mentioned, Wakefield Middle School no longer has any foreign language. So while the rest of us are losing basic electives like this because of budget cuts, magnets are still rolling along as usual.
There is a place for magnets in our system, but they are long overdue for an objective review.
A second look
Thu, 11/26/2009 - 19:44 — louiselee44I think the entire school system needs careful scrutiny by the 2010 board to see if it is as equitable as possible for ALL students. If magnets are deemed necessary, then non-magnet schools need equal attention.
I was teaching when magnet schools made their debut. I just remember that there was a lot of resentment by teachers in non-magnet schools. The thinking was on the lines of, "Well, yeah, I could achieve such-and-such with my students too if I was given the latest technology, equipment, labs, supplies, etc." that were being poured into the magnet program in order to attract the "right kind of students" to the downtown schools.
I'm not saying we need to do away with magnets, but if certain basic offerings are not available at all schools, there's a problem. In my opinion, the school board needs to carefully study this matter.
I agree with that 100%. I
Thu, 11/26/2009 - 22:08 — woodstockI agree with that 100%. I also think there needs to be some scrutiny as to who was accepted into the magnet schools, who was denied entry and why. As it is, it is an extremely unfair system.
As a taxpayer, if my neighbor's children have access to special course offerings and programs, my children should have equal access to them. This is true for magnets as well as charter schools. It is a PUBLIC school system.
Magnets
Thu, 11/26/2009 - 22:34 — CaryCurmudgeonHere are the facts...
Black, hispanic and ED students perform worse in magnet schools than in non-magnets:
Pct passing Math & Reading EOG's in Elementary -
Black; 44% magnet, 45% non-magnet
Hispanic; 41% magnet, 47% non-magnet
ED; 40% magnet, 44% non-magnet
Pct passing Math & Reading EOG's in Middle School -
Black; 42% magnet, 45% non-magnet
Hispanic; 43% magnet, 47% non-magnet
ED; 39% magnet, 44% non-magnet
Non-minority and non-ED students tend to do a little better in magnets than non-magnets. But these schools are a disappointment in terms of real diversity, and in measurable improvement for at-risk students.
The enriched course offerings of magnet schools are wonderful, and should be available on a fair-access basis to all. But let's not kid ourselves that these schools do wonders to uplift at-risk students, they don't.
what is the purpose of a magnet school?
Fri, 11/27/2009 - 11:47 — loriacTheoretically - there's a school in a blighted downtown area with no base students that must have extra offerings to entice students to choose to go there. Create these excellent offerings, a great school rises up that has an enthusiastic student body, teachers and alumni base. People start to buy houses around the school, prices go up. By definition - at some point the magnet is no longer needed since people no longer need to be enticed to go there.
What happens next? The whole magnet philosophy was not thought through. Why are these offerings only at these schools that no longer have a deficit of students (assuming that students can cross the great wall of ITB from OTB to go to school there)
I think there is a need for some type of extra resources at schools - but the magnet concept has outlived its usefulness in many cases. What about applying those extra resources to the kids who really need them? What about spreading some of these offerings across the county, since ITB magnets are prohibitively far for some outlying areas of the county.
There needs to be some serious sleeve-rolling-upping on what's next.... there is a place for these very talented educators who have been running the magnets - it just may be called something else in the future.
Not surprised
Thu, 11/26/2009 - 23:22 — louiselee44Wow - very informative - thanks!
The current magnet format
Thu, 11/26/2009 - 17:18 — red_balloonThe current magnet format is discriminatory and I am surprised WCPSS has not been taken to court for devising and sustaining pernicious practices.
OT!!!I just wanted to get
Wed, 11/25/2009 - 12:44 — dryeraseuserOT!!! I just wanted to get some feedback from everyone on how would you feel if you were asked to take a survery...however you had to include your School name and your PLT committee number. The teachers in WCPSS are being asked to complete a survey that expresses our opinions (good or bad) about the progress of PLT's. HOWEVER, each school's PLT committee is assigned a number which we have to include in our individual survery that we complete online. I was honest, along with many of my co workers. I had dinner last night with 3 friends, that teach in Wake, and the topic come up and we were "concerned" with how this information is going to be used?!?!? A survery should be "nameless" in order to get honest feedback. My friends said they were honest, however , one did admit that she gave most answers as "agree" so that she wouldn't get in trouble. NOW does everyone see why teachers will not speak out?!?! I would like someone to somehow inform the new board members about this and look after our interests here! WE, the teachers, need their support. As, I said, I was honest with my choice of answers (strongly agree, agree, disagree, strongly disagree or I don't know?) I am not sure how many other teachers have or will give their honest opinion within this survery. This is just one of many examples of where TEACHERS will not come to the front, for fear of what punishments could come down the pipe, just from being honest.
Setting the stage
Wed, 11/25/2009 - 14:39 — supportwcpssTypical. You are setting the stage to say the results are bogus. If 70% of the teachers respond that they strongly agree or agree you will immediately discount the results.
I think they should tied to a school. I think the breakdown of what age and type of school would be important.
If this survey does exist Mr Hui should be able to get a copy or some confirmation it is happening.
The school district says
Wed, 11/25/2009 - 15:43 — KeungHui (author)The school district says it's not conducting a survey. This doesn't preclude other groups or individual schools from doing them.
At some point I was going to
Wed, 11/25/2009 - 17:02 — KeungHui (author)At some point I was going to blog about a survey that I know at least one teacher was doing of parents about PLTs. I'm not sure how widespread that one was. But it was an example of a push poll.
I was not necessarily
Wed, 11/25/2009 - 16:36 — dryeraseuserI was not necessarily setting the stage, but I wanted the truth behind this. I did hear this from a neighbor and as I questioned her, I was alarmed that the school system would conduct a survey such as this. Hui, do you know what survey that school have been given to complete. I didn't take the survey, since I'm not a teacher in the school system. I simply take what I hear and investigate the "facts" and "opinions" of current issues. I've heard many conflicting opinions on this topic. Supportwcpss...I have to give you credit! You do pose some good questions and you do make people think. I only hope that teachers can voice their opinions fairly.
I will keep a look out for the next question I have.
Uhh--Major Credilbility problem
Wed, 11/25/2009 - 19:19 — shank56"I didn't take the survey, since I'm not a teacher in the school system. "
Really????????????? Bold copy mine
Well check out this thread from June and some of your posts. Liar, liar , pants on fire??? Or were you fired for not performning your duties??
Developing a Wake policy on Wednesday early school dismissals
_______________________________________
Tue, 06/16/2009 - 13:48 — dryeraseuser
Shank,
bless your heart! I have been a teacher for the past 19 years. 11 or my 19 here in the WCPSS. I'm not sure why it matters what grade i teach, or what all I do at my school. HOWEVER you might be one of those "leeches" from central office trying to narrow the field, and figure out who I am. I'd never give you that pleasure! As I said in a different post, if you need to think that I am not a teacher, then so be it, I am not going to make you believe anything different. SEE..I allow others to speak freely and not try to attack them and make them the bad person. Maybe one day, you will do the same.
_________________________________________
Tue, 06/16/2009 - 14:51 — dryeraseuser
Yes to each and every one of your questions. EVERY school in the system has each and everyone of those things in the schools.
PLC is a dictated set of items that we ONLY discuss. The past 2 years it has been mainly focused on MATH. We have ideas to improve, but we are constantly redirected by admin. to arrange things the way the county wants. There are too many to list here, and personally I am on vacation...OOPS..I have given you another clue, I am on traditional calendar!!! So that narrows your search a little more.
The only good in this is that we will not have our regular planning time soaked up by the meeting.
It is just more of the same without making parents responsible for the education of the children. I am referring to the ones that do nothing.
I understand how the "outside" would look at this since you are not on the inside like me and have the ability to see things how they really are. If you support it...great, but in all due respect, respect me and the other educators that are up to their eyeballs in meetings and useless paperwork that takes away from the education of your child and every other child in the system.
This will be gone in 4 or 5 years...mark my word, just like ole Del will be....we can always have faith and hope!! along with the current board of ed.!
_________________________________________
And in a later post - dryeraseuser said:
I, like many of my fellow educators, do not support or wish to have these Wednesdays for the "Dell dictatorship of PLC" meetings.
Hey hey hey
Wed, 11/25/2009 - 22:42 — SDR256I can definitely see where maybe - not prying here - dryeraser has very pertinent and valuable 'inside' experience but may have, like many many many many MANY folks have found themselves temporarily unoccupied this year. Doesn't mean the experience isn't still valuable, now. We all know how many teachers were let go this year. That experience is golden actually, and the fact that he/she is willing to share it is especially valuable. I don't think we need to be quite so dogmatically, stringently, stridently vigalent, do we? All these thoughts are shared for a greater understanding, right? Not just to vent, right? (hope so.)
Happy Thanksgiving everyone.
Wait a minute...
Wed, 11/25/2009 - 18:04 — supportwcpssThree months ago you were a teacher. Now you aren't?
Independent of my differences with others on this board I called you out three months ago as being full of it and now we know that's true. Go back into your hole and don't come out.
So, if one is "full of it,"
Wed, 11/25/2009 - 18:31 — woodstockSo, if one is "full of it," they should go back to their "hole?" When will you be heading to yours?
Hmm...
Wed, 11/25/2009 - 18:35 — supportwcpssYour irrelevance continues to be applicable. Any reason you don't have an urge to call out an obvious liar. Oh wait a minute, this blogger is on your side.
I have an entire side? My
Wed, 11/25/2009 - 21:13 — woodstockI have an entire side? My only side involves efforts that provide a better system than one that ignores a large percentage of students yet claims success.
"I was not necessarily
Wed, 11/25/2009 - 16:52 — AngelaW"I was not necessarily setting the stage"
no, you just lied .. why?
....
Wed, 11/25/2009 - 19:42 — SideburnsIncredible. I was wondering the same. Why?
Support...thank you for that
Wed, 11/25/2009 - 14:53 — dryeraseuserSupport...thank you for that last sentence! You just proved to me that YOU KNOW nothing about WCPSS!!!! You made my day!!!!
Hmm...
Wed, 11/25/2009 - 12:50 — Bob_SconceSounds like somebody in the administration is trying to collect evidence to show to the school board. The first question the school board should ask is "Is there anyway that the survey responses could be identified with an individual teacher or small group of teachers"? If the answer is "yes," then the survey should be redone anonymously.
Thank you, I agree with
Wed, 11/25/2009 - 12:52 — dryeraseuserThank you, I agree with that.
How are charter schools a
Wed, 11/25/2009 - 12:30 — carson79How are charter schools a win/win and magnet schools are not? just because of transportation issues?
Huh?
Wed, 11/25/2009 - 12:57 — Bob_SconceMagnet schools are clearly a win for students in them (if they weren't, then they wouldn't have applied). It's unclear whether they're a win or a lose for the district --- there may be more preferable allocations of district resources that are foreclosed by having magnet schools.
huh?
Wed, 11/25/2009 - 13:05 — carson79foreclosed? not sure what you mean. I guess you are saying they are win/ win or lose depending on whether they represent the best allocation of district resources, which could be argued. That makes sense to me. I hear a lot of people say that charters are a good idea and they are often my same friends who are against magnet schools are criticize them for being elitist, when to me, charter schools are even more so sometimes.
So...
Wed, 11/25/2009 - 17:49 — Bob_SconceSorry for not being clear. Magnets draw money, teachers, etc.... It could be that the district would be better off taking some, or all, of those resources and putting them in non-magnet schools. For example, it might be better to not teach Russian at Enloe and, instead, teach Spanish at Wakefield Middle. (Or, it might not. I just don't know.) If the district is giving up on better alternatives just to hold onto the magnet program, then it would be a win/lose -- win for the magnet students, lose for everybody else. But, that's a big 'if.'
I understand where the "elitist" point-of-view comes from, but I'm not sure it's really a problem. Raleigh Charter is an elite high school. So's Enloe. And, inevitably, some parents and students at those schools will start acting like snobs. But, the fact that a school has a lot of conceited jerks doesn't justify closing that school down.
Mandarin Chinese instead?
Thu, 11/26/2009 - 14:39 — MomknowsbestShouldn't all schools be required to teach Chinese Mandarin instead? Right now Enloe and Raleigh Charter High are the only 2 schools offering Chinese. We owe China so much debt it makes sense for our future working generation to learn Chinese.
Interesting...
Fri, 11/27/2009 - 00:46 — Bob_SconceA Chinese businessman, when asked if American children should learn Chinese, responded that their time would be better spent learning math and science, as everybody in China is learning English.
Against Chinese?
Fri, 11/27/2009 - 10:58 — MomknowsbestNot sure why you're so dead set against students learning Chinese. Do you think that learning Spanish or Latin will benefit more globally?
Huh?
Fri, 11/27/2009 - 12:39 — Bob_SconceI have no issue with learning Chinese. I just don't think it's as valuable as some other people think it is. It's not particularly politically correct to say this, but as the world shrinks, English is really becoming the common language. So, if you're pursuing Chinese purely for a pragmatic "I want to be able to work in the new economy" reason, your time may be better spent actually learning raw skills that will help you compete with people in China.
Don't get me wrong -- learning a second language is valuable, even if most of the world knows the one you speak every day. It teaches you to think in a different way and it's always nice to be able to communicate with people in their native language. Latin is useful for similar reasons -- it teaches a different way of thinking and actually helps you understand English better.
Now, at some point, the district needs to decide what languages to teach, and where to teach them. I was trying to suggest that it may be preferable to teach some foreign language in all middle schools and reduce the number of foreign languages taught in magnet schools. While it may make sense for Magnet schools to have a wide range of extra courses, that shouldn't happen at the expense of other schools having a basic set of courses.
Learning Chinese
Fri, 11/27/2009 - 21:45 — SDR256Imagine you are on a business trip to China and the stakes are high. Imagine you have a meeting where you and your colleague do not speak Chinese and those are meeting with speak Chinese and English. They conduct most of the meeting in English, but confer - in front of you - in Chinese, assuming you will not understand. If you confer with your colleague they will understand and so you cannot. At this point wouldn't you think you would be kicking yourself for not knowing at least some rudimentary business level Chinese?
For the Chinese it is an advantage to know both, wouldn't you think?
Relax folks. Except for the
Fri, 11/27/2009 - 23:25 — red_balloonRelax folks. Except for the few who will manage to get away, WCPSS will ensure the only high stakes international venture for students will be getting the most value at the local Chinese/ Mexican/ Indian buffet.
Let's get the basics right. That in itself would be a huge leap forward for an education system mired in social engineering games.
Absolutely
Fri, 11/27/2009 - 22:07 — Bob_SconceI'm trying to avoid overstating this. Let me be clear: Learning Chinese is valuable. But, given a choice between getting a good grounding in math and a good grounding in Chinese, I think it's better to focus on math.
.
Fri, 11/27/2009 - 22:08 — Bob_Sconce. Sorry. double-post.
I haven't perused unbiased
Wed, 11/25/2009 - 12:38 — red_balloonI haven't perused unbiased performance statistics of charter schools but it seems that such schools can focus on education and not be detracted by social engineering expeditions. I am inclined to research a couple of schools as options to the WCPSS orchestrated education fiasco.
I meant mine as a response
Wed, 11/25/2009 - 12:43 — carson79I meant mine as a response to the post that called them a win/win, sorry about that.
The win/ win could be on
Wed, 11/25/2009 - 12:48 — red_balloonThe win/ win could be on account of delivering higher quality education for a lower price.
If Wake is claiming to be
Wed, 11/25/2009 - 11:26 — red_balloonIf Wake is claiming to be spending $7800 per student, that works out to $39m for the 5000 charter school students. Instead of indulging in financial jugglery, WCPSS should pay up the alleged per student amount. It very likely will improve the quality of public education choices and leave the WCPSS to those who want children to be guinea pigs in social engineering experiments.
I hope the charter schools demand and get what is rightfully theirs. It would be welcome to see decreased funding for WCPSS' ruinous experiments.
“If Wake is claiming
Tue, 12/01/2009 - 12:31 — user12345“If Wake is claiming to be spending $7800 per student, that works out to $39m for the 5000 charter school students.”
I think it is a little more complex than that. Here is a theoretical example which has three groups of students – top (all the skills and parental support), middle and special (IE, LE, Special Ed) with middle students making up 30% of the mix and costing the average. Top students do not need TAs and afterschool programs and could easily learn on their own. Special students take more resources (more teachers, special certification, etc.)
Public schools are stuck educating the entire spectrum. Charter, Magnet, and Private schools typically skim the cream and get the best students. I know selection is random supposedly but I have never seen a Charter, Magnet or Private schools filled with mostly Special students, which is possible with random selection.
So, giving charter schools the average funding per student may not reflect the true cost. For example, taken to extremes, if charter schools took all the top and middle students and left the special ones, the $7800 provided the public schools and remaing special students would not cover the cost to educate those students.
Top students 30%x$7,800x 0.5= $1,170
Middle students 30%x$7,800x 1.0= $2,340
Special students 30%x$7,800x 1.8= $4,290
$7,800
** Example (not actual), top students make up 30% of the population and cost half the average to educate.
The additional money that's
Tue, 12/01/2009 - 13:10 — KeungHui (author)The additional money that's owed is far less than $39 million. We're talking about the local expense fund only. At issue is that it seems like a lot of districts chose to only count the appropriation from the county commissioeners and not the total amount in the local expense fund when determining the per pupil amount to give to charter schools. Using the larger figure to determine per pupil spending would increase the amount by about $200 per kid to give to charter schools.
Interesting that Margiotta
Wed, 11/25/2009 - 11:12 — RevHiDInteresting that Margiotta said charter schools save on Capital costs. Because Charter schools do NOT save on educational costs like more teachers, and replacing PTA funding and volunteers. By definition, Charters only deal with motivated families. That leaves the public school system with a higher percentage of high-needs kids. I wonder if the savings on capital expenses is greater than the increase in expense of educating higher numbers of kids with absentee parents (at every income level!) As expensive as that is... its still cheaper than prison. And it's important, because kids don't get to choose their parents.
Let's get'em REV! Let's
Wed, 11/25/2009 - 14:42 — shearertwLet's get'em REV!
Let's make sure we don't provide any resources to "motivated families". Motivated people already get too much in this world. We should be taking resources from motivated people and giving them to the unmotivated. Then, perhaps we'll turn the "motivated" people into unmotivated people so there' no one left to be jealous of or hate any more.
FYI carson79 - there's some sarcasm above
Wow
Wed, 11/25/2009 - 13:27 — Dadof3Please read Bob's response firstly; he's always more lucid.
What are you positing? Education prevents criminality on a one-to-one basis?
Well, that's true, but what are we to glean from it? What criteria do we use to establish into what family is birth a "good thing?" How can we ensure that this criteria doesn't conflict with another framework?
Huh?
Wed, 11/25/2009 - 11:29 — Bob_SconceSo, first of all, recognize that your issues apply equally to magnet schools.
As far as the PTA funding/volunteers, I think you misunderstand what the word "volunteer" means -- a parent's time, money and energy DOES NOT BELONG TO THE SCHOOL DISTRICT. Parents have sole absolute despotic control over those things; the school district has no claim to them. The district only loses something that was never its to begin with.
You seem to be suggesting that involved parents should be forced to keep their kids in learning situations that may not be ideal for their students, just to maintain some sort of offset against the ill effects of non-involved parents. If families want to volunteer for that, great. But, please don't use us as pawns in your grand scheme to reengineer society based on the educational theory du jour.
Hmm...
Wed, 11/25/2009 - 10:32 — Bob_SconceSo, hopefully the charters in Wake County will be wise enough not to ask for the back money and will be happy with the increase going forward. From a public relations point of view, asking for $3M in this economy is not going to sit well with the public. And, charter schools are in a precarious political situation.
Ron is right -- charter schools are a win/win -- students get an education that they prefer to that offered by the traditional public school system, and the public schools don't have to pay to build schools for those students. Each side is made better off. (Now, if the *other* charter school finance lawsuit succeeds, this won't be nearly as clear. Let's hope it doesn't go anywhere.)