Now that Election Day has passed, Public Policy Polling is releasing the results of the internal polling it did on the school board races.
On PPP's blog site, the Democratic polling firm says that "we've known since the beginning of September that the endorsees of the Wake Schools Community Alliance were probably going to sweep the school board election."
PPP says that an early September survey the firm had conducted found between 57 percent and 53 percent opposition to the diversity policy in the four districts. The group found that opposition was strong enough that people were willing to cross party lines.
PPP says that a poll done last week found that the WSCA candidates were winning.
"The landslide nature of the victories is an indication that many people who had never voted in a school board election before came out yesterday, and that they were all there to vote for WSCA candidate," according to the blog post.
Dean Debnam, the owner of Public Policy Polling, mounted a last-ditch effort last week to sway voters by forming a PAC and running TV ads against three of the WSCA candidates.
Click here for the Sept. survey results.
Click here for District 1 poll results.
Click here for District 2 poll results.
Click here for District 7 poll results.
Click here for District 9 poll results.
Comments
How it all relates
Thu, 10/08/2009 - 00:37 — klanders65I just read the SAS report stuff. I am not sure I believe it relates to neighborhood schools the same way most of you seem to. The first time I posted here I was being ironic and sarcastic, and the discussion was neighborhood schools. What I said was that right now, the "haves" are getting all the seats in the advanced classes, which starts with 8th grade algebra.
With magnet schools, the "haves" can be spread out all over the county and take all the seats in 8th grade algebra. Even when they are lower scoring than the low income and minority students, they take the seats away from them. SAS's report confirms this.
Every school has some elite group that gets 8th grade algebra. This is true even in the private expensive schools. It is a math teacher thing. Only some small elite intellectually superior group can learn math. So, they are selected from the students, even in the most expensive private schools. Right now, because of magnet schools, those selected as being intellectually superior are the higher income white and Asians. This is not based on scores but on whose parents demand it, basically.
If we go to neighborhood schools, the high income neighborhoods will be like the private schools and many high income students who would have been selected for the top track will be in the bottom track in their high income school.
There may be enough high income folks who don't know how much this matters so that they don't care. WCPSS will move more Algebra teachers to these high income schools so they can have more classes. They already do that.
But this is the only way that the SAS report is related to neighborhood schools. If WCPSS used data for tracking there would be no relationship between this report and the diversity policy.
SAS report
Thu, 10/08/2009 - 08:59 — lferreriWhen I read the SAS report, my immediate response was that the part about Algebra I in eighth grade was empirical evidence of what you had been telling us all along. Students are being denied admission to Algebra based on race.
Do you think it would help if WCPSS had a criterion for admission to Algebra I based on the standard SAS suggested in its report? (I believe it said that they used a cutoff of students with a 70% probability of passing the EOC.) I think that we would still see what you have described--parents pushing to have their kids admitted even if they do not make the cutoff. But at least this would ensure that minority students who have the ability (but may not have the clout) would be placed into Algebra. WCPSS could even raise the probability cutoff if they wanted to limit the number of students or wanted to make Algebra I more "exclusive". I've been trying to figure out what, if any, problems there would be with a data-driven admission standard.
I still have my original reservations about predicting future scores. I believe that many talented minority students would not have the predicted scores because they have previously been subjected to a reduced curriculum starting in the early grades. But I would at least like WCPSS to do something immediately to help those students who have managed to overcome this.
You are right that many
Thu, 10/08/2009 - 11:35 — klanders65You are right that many "would be" talented minority students would not have the scores. But right now, may very talented minority and low income students who DO have the scores are kept out. Using objective criteria would allow those kids in.
Parents should ask what the probability of success is for their child for success in algebra in 8th grade.
Nobody wants to see
Thu, 10/08/2009 - 11:40 — Eric_BNobody wants to see talented minority students kept out of advanced classes that they clearly qualify for based on EOG test results. Objective criteria should be established and used for course placement.
WCPSS should be held to account for why barely 50% of students eligible for 8th grade algebra are placed in that class and why there is a racial difference among even the proficient students.
Why is our placement rate for 8th grade algebra so much lower than the other districts examined in the SAS report? Do you have any insights into that, klanders65? Thanks!
I hope there's an indepth investigation of the math thing
Thu, 10/08/2009 - 07:37 — fiestamomWhy should only an elite group in ANY school get to take the advanced math? This should be open to any kid that wants to take it, to improve their chances for the future. This really bothers me.
Until a couple of months ago, I had NO idea this was such a widespread practice. Parents need to know their kids are being tracked as early as 5th/6th grade.
This is how it has always
Thu, 10/08/2009 - 11:33 — klanders65This is how it has always been. Always. And not just here--everywhere. (Except in some of the countries that are taking all our jobs).
Great point
Thu, 10/08/2009 - 11:43 — lferreriGreat point. That was another distressing statistic in the SAS report. Only 44.3% of the NC students with a 70% chance of passing Algebra were actually taking Algebra. We seem to have low aspirations for large numbers of students, along with even lower aspirations for minority/low income students. No wonder we are having trouble competing internationally.
The problem is that we need
Thu, 10/08/2009 - 08:01 — RevHiDThe problem is that we need more math teachers. People who do the math know that they can make more money in private industry. The people who choose to teach instead are saints.
"I am not sure I
Thu, 10/08/2009 - 08:04 — woodstock"I am not sure I believe (the report) relates to neighborhood schools the same way most of you seem to."
I don't know how much the report relates directly to neighborhood schools, but it does shine a bright light on the fact that current policies are NOT benefitting the at-risk students it is intended to help.
missed out
Thu, 10/08/2009 - 00:17 — klanders65I missed out on the SAS report blog. I am happy to see some of your comments. You are finally getting it! I'll go in and vent while it is still here on the page.
Congratulations to BoE elect
Wed, 10/07/2009 - 23:10 — WhalerCaneCongratulations to BoE elect members and those who helped them succeed. Please forgive me for taking leave for a while from this blog. Nothing personal, just more for me to do elsewhere. Good luck to all of you.
Show me the data
Wed, 10/07/2009 - 23:02 — pmIt will be interesting to see if the new board will be able to conduct the studies and deliver data showing that "their way" is a better way. I am guessing that they, like the past board, won't even try.
Return Mr. Esco to Enloe!
Wed, 10/07/2009 - 20:21 — RandyRockettRobert Escamilla stood alone against the entire WCPSS School Board except ONE member - Ron Margiotta. Mr. Margiotta proudly stood with Mr. Esco and the tens of thousands of Esco's supporters. Mr. Escamilla case drew national and ultimately international press for months. I'm convinced this and a few other toppled decisions brought down the election results last night. This is one for the books! Bravo to all those who fought the good fight! "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."-George Santayana
Robert was in the wrong. He
Wed, 10/07/2009 - 20:59 — JonesSausageRobert was in the wrong. He broke the law. He and I have discussed this a few times.
Standing up for that blindly doesn't make it right.
Further, it's got nothing to do with the elections yesterday, I assure you.
Really?
Thu, 10/08/2009 - 10:37 — RandyRockettNICE try.
gracious winner
Wed, 10/07/2009 - 19:51 — Athey01When I was a youth and won a contest, I was taught to be a gracious winner. There appears to be a lot of anger and gloating. Please enjoy the moment, but assume that your opponents were committed to the same goal... the education of our children. You can question their logic, but please refrain from questioning their integrity. Again, please enjoy the moment, because we live in a democracy, where the majority have the right to govern. There is much work to be done. We are going to need everyone's help to succeed, in my humbe opinion.
Thank you. I do care.
Thu, 10/08/2009 - 08:06 — RevHiDThank you. I do care. And I'm starting to come around and see that some of the things should be changed. I'm still deeply afraid that the good things about Wake county will be swept away with the bad. I want my daughter to have a diverse education. Please don't take away my choice too.
Please cut RevHiD some
Thu, 10/08/2009 - 12:32 — jenmanPlease cut RevHiD some slack. I don't recall reading any rude things from this person or blatant attacks. Just genuine concern for the kids in WCPSS and what might happen with any changes.
Rev--I hope that you join in the conversations that will continue after the elections. If we are going to change things for the better, then we need to hear from everybody. Even if you don't agree with us on the busing issue, I know that we can work together on finding solutions from here.
"Please don't take away
Thu, 10/08/2009 - 10:12 — AngelaW"Please don't take away my choice too"
and you have accused MANY here of working selfishly, when instead we are working for CHOICE FOR ALL???
hypocrite...
...
Thu, 10/08/2009 - 09:57 — SideburnsSo, you are well aware that many parents have no choice but you are only concerned that yours might be taken? Nice.
The efforts for change do
Thu, 10/08/2009 - 10:28 — woodstockThe efforts for change do not end with the election. There are still battles ahead. Agreeing to disagree is not conducive to making sure that the best, data-driven solutions move forward.
There were many forces in this election that I believe had interests other than the education of individual students, so I do not at all buy your argument that all parties had pure motives.
Extremely concerned
Wed, 10/07/2009 - 18:38 — anxious2010I have followed the blog discussions for quite sometime and have not posted any comments. I would like to pose what I hope is taken to be a fair, earnest question. If the Board succeeds in returning to a neighborhood schools policy, what will the incentive be for teachers to remain in what will become high poverty schools? Thank you.
WPTF's Bill Lumaye has an
Thu, 10/08/2009 - 12:15 — jenmanWPTF's Bill Lumaye has an interview with Eleanor Goattee that's available to listen to on their website. In it she talks about Wilburn ES, which has an F&R in the 60s. They have implemented a program called TAP (I think that's the right name) that has been successful. Its a teacher incentive program and I don't remember all the details from the interview but Goattee was very positive about it.
My sister in law teaches in a very economically depressed school district in Northern Illinois. Its a blue collar manufacturing town that has high unemployment and all of their schools are over 80% low income. She has been following our school issues and shares them with her teacher friends. They were all very happy to hear about our election results. They are amazed at the lengths we were going to preserve this 'diversity' policy and they worry about the negative effects on the kids who are getting bused.
My sister in law's big concern was that by moving at-risk kids around, nobody was actually targeting programs to meet their particular needs. She thought it would be harder for a teacher who only has 5 of those kids in her class (troubled home lives, far behind academically, etc) to help them as opposed to a teacher for whom it was the norm. She worried that the 'wealthier' school's staff just wouldn't be equipped to deal with their needs and they would get lost in the shuffle. It was an interesting opinion and it really seems to fit along with John Tedesco's support of the Community Schools movement. Where extra resources (counselors, health care, family programs, etc) are put directly in the schools.
">>She thought it would be
Thu, 10/08/2009 - 13:05 — JSBinNC">>She thought it would be harder for a teacher who only has 5 of those kids in her class (troubled home lives, far behind academically, etc) to help them as opposed to a teacher for whom it was the norm. She worried that the 'wealthier' school's staff just wouldn't be equipped to deal with their needs and they would get lost in the shuffle..."
This is exactly what I think is happening here. One of the data guys... bob or eric, or my friend Mr. Anderson - a while back pulled data that showed this... I think. It told a lot... it was really the first time I ever looked at the results at that nitty gritty level. Like many - I had been hyperfocused on the "school" results. I have learned so much from following along here.
Even in our own school (high ED, Raleigh ES, magnet) - the ED kids outperform their peers at the very very low ED population schools.
There is a knack, something extra... something - that the teachers at our high ED school do or say or ooze - that motivates these kids. It WORKS for them. Not ALL of them - but MORE of them... so why on earth are we not LEARNING from what these folks are doing and emulating it out? Clearly - and the data guys had way more examples then just the school we attend - they had figured out how to do something in a way that was more effective than other schools with less successful results. We need to embrace and celebrate that and keep it going!
Don't move the kids!!!!
I have worked with those
Thu, 10/08/2009 - 13:18 — shearertwI have worked with those kids (troubled home lives, far behind academically, etc) in an academic situation before. What I can tell you is there is no single solution. They are all individuals. You have to learn what makes each one of them tick. That is why continuity is so important. Changing schools every 3 years is just the opposite of want they need. I would even suggest having some teachers move up with the kids (this is not a new idea and done successfully in other school disctricts). The teachers keep the same kids for two years in a row (2nd and 3rd grade for example). They get to know the kids and learn how to teach to their specific needs. Also, the more experience you have in working with these kids the better. I was working in a situation where 100% were "these kids". Learned very quickly. I would agree that having just one or two in your class each year does not provide that experience. Every class has the one "bad" kid, right? I'm not blaming teachers but if you just have one or two in your class, you tend to not try to reach them (you can't reach everybody, right). Well if 50% of your class is in this "category", you'd better learn what it takes.
the "continuity of care"
Thu, 10/08/2009 - 13:45 — JSBinNCthe "continuity of care" model is something that should definitely be looked at here - it works wonders with young, young children - I can absolutely see it translating well to elementary - even middle school aged children also!!!
What a terrific thought!!!
Bad Premise
Wed, 10/07/2009 - 20:43 — Bob_SconceWhy does going to a more family-friendly approach necessarily means that there will be significantly more "high poverty schools" than we have now. That's what the status-quo wants people to believe, but it's not true.
One of many options is to make busing voluntary by giving students a reason to go to a different school, instead of forcing them to go to those schools. The magnet program does this right now.
The real point is that the district's diversity policy isn't helping those who it's supposed to help -- 40+% of poor students don't graduate. In elementary school, less than 32% pass their EOGs, worse than the state average. (Data from the NC report cards site.) Yet, this counts as 'success' according to WCPSS. By that definition, I have to congratulate Horace Tart on his election success yesterday.
To be clear, I did not imply
Thu, 10/08/2009 - 09:17 — anxious2010To be clear, I did not imply that there would be a significant increase in high poverty schools, however, I do believe that a neighborhood schools policy will result in more than we currently have. My concerns are based on personal experience with bright, new educators who were offered the incentives of higher pay to teacher in high poverty schools in Charlotte and opted not to. They decided to teach in more affluent suburban schools. There are several factors to keep in mind, teachers have had pay frozen, health insurance benefits cut, co-pays increased, more "parental" features built into their teaching responsibilities--why would many enthusiastic teachers under those conditions choose a high poverty school with amplified issues? (though the current economic crisis may temporarily mitigate this) My most heart-felt gratitude to teachers who can and do work in high poverty areas daily without burnout. I'm from a poor, rural county in NC and know what a high poverty school looks like as a student. It is a fact that it is difficult to attract and sustain talented teachers over time. Ultimately, I am simply concerned because I have heard little discourse on this issue over the course of the campaign.
Facing the real problem
Thu, 10/08/2009 - 10:04 — SDR256I think there are a lot of issues like this - aspects of the REAL problems that have been passed by or masked because of the horrible tendency to get into this "us vs them" / resegregationist namecalling/ all or nothing - FOOD FIGHT.
I agree - we need to find some good solid solutions to the most critical concerns. KIPP has a way of dealing with teacher acquisition - they look for teachers who specifically have stated that they want to work with at-risk children. They are out there! I think the mistake - again - has been to approach this as a one size fits all solution. Customize, individualize, humanize, CHOICE - those are the elements of what I see as the hopeful path.
One more thing
Wed, 10/07/2009 - 20:00 — fiestamomThink of the poor kids coming into a school in kindergarten. Their kinder teacher works hard with them, they move up to first grade and make more improvement, then suddenly they get transferred to another school.
Yeah, there's paperwork that goes along with that kid, but think about how much better it would be for little Johnny if the teachers could talk across the hall about his success. Instead of reaching the 5th grade, and getting to show his previous teachers what a success he is, nobody at his new school knows who he is.
There's something to be said for the individual school's "institutional" memory.
You must be assuming that
Wed, 10/07/2009 - 19:19 — woodstockYou must be assuming that the new policies will produce schools that have excessive levels of poverty or that higher poverty schools will be intolerable for teachers. I think those are false assumptions.
First, we already have high-poverty schools, and most have highly qualified and motivated teachers. Second there are high poverty schools that perform on par with non-high poverty schools ...they should be the model for Wake County. We should not assume that schools with elevated levels of low-income students cannot be successful. Third, until we peel back the onion of what our school system looks like without all the convoluted busing patterns and calendar schedules, I don't think anyone should assume we will be looking at a unmanageable situation. Using data and engaging communities -- including the resources in them -- effective solutions are there if we work together.
The fact is, low-income children are not being well-served in Wake County and change is needed for improvement will occur. Change scares people, but it is inevitable.
Hmmm...
Wed, 10/07/2009 - 23:23 — supportwcpssHow many schools do we have over 70% F&R? 80% F&R? 90% F&R?
How many??
We have schools over 50%
Thu, 10/08/2009 - 08:40 — JSBinNCWe have schools over 50% F&R - and my children go to one of them. And - it's AMAZING.
We personally have been at both ends of the spectrum... less than 12% ED, now 56%ED - and the current school is a far more engaging, challenging and just plain old awesome on every level! The teachers and staff at our current school are collaborative and extremely supportive. They are a team - and you sense it as soon as you walk in the front door. The children are some of the most well mannered, eager and happy kids I have seen in school. There is pride.
This school has better results on the ED EOG's than our <12% ED school... which is part of the reason why we do NOT buy into the theory that you need to move the ED kids all around the town to get them to succeed. This is a high - perhaps close to THE highest poverty school (Elementary) in Raleigh - and it's doing better with ED kids than many others.
Is there room for improvement? You bet. But what they are doing right now is working - it IS making a difference. They need to build on that - not dismantle it and move kids (and money...) out to different schools under the guise that it "improves their chances". It doesn't.
That is not what I said
Thu, 10/08/2009 - 08:44 — supportwcpssHow many schools are over 70%, 80%, 90%?? Have you ever been involved in this kind of school?
no. have you??
Thu, 10/08/2009 - 09:21 — JSBinNCno.
have you??
just a quick look - but I
Thu, 10/08/2009 - 09:30 — JSBinNCjust a quick look - but I don't see any ES in WCPSS that are listed as over 70% ED. So - I guess really - nobody here has experience with a >70%ED school... since they don't exist.
Or is the data incorrect???
Thank you
Thu, 10/08/2009 - 14:29 — supportwcpssMy point exactly. I use to work with schools in the 80 and 90% in a previous job in another state and we tried a number of differnet things all of which were very costly and not scalable. We have to avoid high poverty schools.
I agree. We also have
Thu, 10/08/2009 - 14:46 — JSBinNCWe also have to avoid a generation of kids with piss poor education. Isn't education the foundation of breaking the poverty cycle?
You tried things. The didn't work. Did you give up? Or keep trying new and different things?
What is being done today is not working. It's costing, it's not scalable, and it's not educating anyone to their fullest potential.
It's not one way or the other. It's lots of ways... that lead to success.
Smith and Brentwood were
Thu, 10/08/2009 - 12:02 — jenmanSmith and Brentwood were both a little over 70% the year they were made magnets.
be patient...that's going
Thu, 10/08/2009 - 07:05 — JonesSausagebe patient...that's going to take 2-3 years to happen.
it took Charlotte about 4 to do it, and we all know that Raleigh always bests Charlotte, so we'll get it done sooner.
40-50% is not high to you?
Thu, 10/08/2009 - 07:05 — woodstock40-50% is not high to you?
Incentives
Wed, 10/07/2009 - 18:56 — fiestamomThere is a school in Oakland (in the poorest part) CA, where it is 99% poor kids. This school has been turned around by investing teachers in the success of their kids. It's been done in Tucson, AZ on an Indian reservation, same in Los Angeles. It CAN be done. Why not find committed principals who want to see success for every single kid in their school. Let these principals find teachers who are equally committed. Why not incentivize teachers? It can be done!
Here's one link
Thu, 10/08/2009 - 08:17 — fiestamomFrom the LA Times, about American Indian School in Oakland, CA.
Title: Spitting in the eye of mainstream education.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-charter31-2009may31,0,7064053.story
And
Wed, 10/07/2009 - 22:22 — supportwcpssDo you plan to fight for those ideas as much as you fought for your neighborhood schools? Now you all can turn all that energy to helping these high poverty schools.
I do and I hope that you
Thu, 10/08/2009 - 11:59 — jenmanI do and I hope that you will join us. I do believe that you and I agree on many of the issues and I also have worries for what is to come. I think that the change is needed but I know that it will be difficult and we need to make sure that at-risk children get what they actually need. I have no doubt that our candidates are committed to that, but I just recognize the difficulty that lies ahead.
So again, I do hope that you continue to join in on the conversations and offer your thoughts, ideas, and suggestions. Just like WSCA sought out opinions and concerns from all over the county during the elections, we must all continue to do that in our search for solutions.
SUPPORTWCPSS will have to change his name
Thu, 10/08/2009 - 09:51 — BlawgDawgThen again, when he loses his superintendent job next year, he probably won't post much anymore. ;-)
Of course!
Thu, 10/08/2009 - 07:43 — fiestamomWhy would I be happy knowing kids aren't getting a good education. I know you're a "regular" on here, there's been a lot of good discussions on this board re: the loathed Trailblazers Math, the spelling with no tests, etc. We are parents who care about the quality of the education all kids are getting.
It's pretty obvious I'm a conservative, and I think you're a lib, but as corny as it sounds, we ALL want what's best for the children. (cue the We Are the World music).... I am still hunting for the links to the stories from Los Angeles, Oakland, and Tucson, google isn't my friend right now. But what the principals, and teachers accomplished in those once horrible schools is amazing!
Yes
Wed, 10/07/2009 - 22:52 — TrailerParkGirlYes
Poll results
Wed, 10/07/2009 - 17:56 — Eric_BThese poll results sure blow a big hole in the arguments of policy 6200 supporters that they just failed to mobilize their supporters. 61% opposition vs. 29% support.
http://www.wral.com/news/local/politics/story/6157292/
These poll results show otherwise, Mr. Hill.
Still not listensing...no surprise there.
Wed, 10/07/2009 - 18:17 — woodstockHill never listened to the public before the election, and now with the overwhelming mandate for change, he still refuses to listen to his constituents. He should enjoy his remaining days as Chairman, as those days are numbered.