How much of an impact would going to express busing only for Wake County magnet schools have on the program?
As noted in today's article, Superintendent Tony Tata and school board vice chairman John Tedesco don't think the potential change would have too much of an impact. Tata pointed to the recent online test drive in which more than 70 percent of participants said only having express busing wouldn't discourage them from attending magnet schools.
Tedesco pointed to how the magnet school program still turns away a few thousand students each year. Even if fewer applications come in, he said he doesn't expect the use of express busing will cause them to have fewer applicants than seats.
Vickie Adamson, president of the Ligon Middle School PTA, said a complete move to express busing would discourage some families from applying.
Adamson said some parents of elementary students aren't going to be comfortable with dropping off their children at the nearest high school to pick up the express bus. She said it will also force high schools to provide staff to watch the students should parents not be on there on time when the buses drop them off in the afternoon.
Adamson said magnet parents accept the need to have long bus rides in return for attending the schools. She said the students sleep in the morning on the bus and do their homework on the ride home.
But Tata and Tedesco say the up to two hours of ride time allowed each way for magnet students is unacceptable.
In addition, Tedesco said magnet parents need to help share in the costs of providing the programs their children receive. He said the savings from the transportation switch can be turned into classroom dollars.
“They’ve got to help out and participate,” Tedesco said of the magnet parents using express busing. “Transportation for magnet schools is not cost effective.”
The change, if implemented, could go into effect for the 2012-13 school year. Tedesco said he'd like to discuss at the Sept. 20 board meeting changing R&P to say the maximum one-way ride time would be 60 minutes.
There is precedent for this kind of change. Charlotte-Mecklenburg schools switched to express busing only for magnet schools to save money. Click here to see how CMS handles what they call shuttle buses.
UPDATE
This may answer some of the questions raised in the comments.
Based on the presentation at Tuesday's school board meeting, Bob Snidemiller, senior director of transportation, said the express busing proposal would only apply to runs for the magnet application students. The magnet base students would still get neighborhood bus service.
Snidemiller said he couldn't say how much savings, if any, would come from only offering express busing for magnet students. But he said it would allow them shorten ride times for all students by letting them shift more buses from magnet runs to non-magnet runs.
In terms of express service, Alvin McNeill, director of transportation operations, said Southeast Raleigh High is the only magnet school which only provide express service for magnet application students.
McNeill said some elementary magnet schools have a mixture of express and neighborhood bus service for magnet students.
McNeill said Enloe High, Carnage Middle and Ligon Middle don't use any express busing for magnet students, offering them all neighborhood service. Snidemiller said Enloe has 65 magnet student runs and 12 base student runs.
When the option was mentioned Tuesday, school board member Kevin Hill asked Snidemiller to do an analysis of how many students might not be able to participate in magnet schools if they only offered express busing.
Tedesco later countered by saying that Southeast Raleigh High still has a waiting list of students who want to attend even with only offering express busing.
Comments
Is Mr. Tata actually....
Mon, 09/12/2011 - 20:41 — bpuli9999coming up with these ideas on his own or is he being coached by the republicans on the board to get their agenda going (indirectly)?
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Typical republican - hates Roosevelt but loves Social Security, hates LBJ but loves Medicare. Actually believes Fox News.
?
Mon, 09/12/2011 - 23:58 — Bob_SconceDislike Roosevelt, LBJ, Social Security and Medicare. Better?
They shouldn't get bus service at all
Mon, 09/12/2011 - 11:35 — FSandYOUDon't they already get enough just by winning their lottery and being accepted!
How many teacher's jobs would that save next year county wide?
FSandYOU....
Mon, 09/12/2011 - 21:26 — paulastamAre you a pro choice or anti-choice Republican? Cutting bus service to magnet schools will limit choice for many families and such an approach seems contrary to the choice mantra that is the fad right now for the GOP led school board and General Tata.
Paula, "Independent, Fair & Speaking Up for MY Kids."
I'm a Make your own choice Indy
Mon, 09/12/2011 - 22:10 — FSandYOUAmazing huh!
As for bus service limiting choice, HA! Choices don't matter when you can't get in do they!!
Incase you haven't caught my stance on bussing check this out, I think ALL bussing should be stopped!!! Every last one of them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How many teachers would that keep in the classroom next year?
FS, "Stocking up on ice and tylenol because stupid season has arrived and we're only a month away from more marches, protests and arrests!"
This website works so good
Mon, 09/12/2011 - 22:10 — FSandYOUI can't stand it!
Capacity Numbers
Mon, 09/12/2011 - 07:29 — WakeCountyParentWhen can we expect this year's capacity numbers to be publicized?
Interesting
Mon, 09/12/2011 - 08:52 — loriacFrom the LRHS Mycenaean:
...http://themycenaean.org/2011/09/leesville-downsizes-for-the-2011-12-school-year-2/
'Leesville started the 2011-2012 school year with 2,200 students, about 200 less than last year. However, the downsize of our student body is not due to recent budget cuts.
According to Scott Lyons, principal, “The Growth and Planning department at the WCPSS central office marked the amount of classrooms at Leesville incorrectly. Eight classrooms in the east building were thought to be part of Leesville Middle.”
“The department believed we were over capacity and decreased our enrollment. The department realized its mistake after Leesville’s plans for this year were created.” It was too late to correct their mistake.'
That's uncertain. In the
Mon, 09/12/2011 - 07:56 — KeungHui (author)That's uncertain. In the past, staff has asked the board to approve the annual capacity utilization report between October and November. With a new supt., the timelines may change.
I was thinking there was
Mon, 09/12/2011 - 09:53 — WakeCountyParentI was thinking there was some data put out at the 20-day mark. Am I remembering something different?
They'll have the 20-day
Mon, 09/12/2011 - 10:09 — KeungHui (author)They'll have the 20-day numbers in late September or early October. But the actual document with the annual capacity figures isn't done until the fall, or at least it wasn't done until then in the past.
Keung
Sun, 09/11/2011 - 09:26 — Dove314Thanks for the update with clarifications. Is Enloe still used as a "hub" for Carnage and Ligon similar to one of the options being discussed about a central hub? If so, doesn't that rule out that option based on data already collected as having the connector routes is what seems to be driving some of the long bus rides?
I don't know.
Sun, 09/11/2011 - 11:25 — KeungHui (author)I don't know.
A magnet parent e-mailed me
Sun, 09/11/2011 - 13:02 — KeungHui (author)A magnet parent e-mailed me to say that there is a combined Ligon-Enloe express bus run.
If so, that would be a lot
Sun, 09/11/2011 - 10:34 — allkidsfirstIf so, that would be a lot different than the hub that worked for us. Several neighborhoods in Cary rode a bus back to a Cary middle school, where local busses met them and took them the rest of the way.
If they added a destination hub to an express system, it would be a nightmare!
I think the high school meeting location for express busses would have to change to make this successful. There would be too many students from a ton of different magnets all meeting at the same place at once! Using multiple middle or elementary schools or even community parks would mean smaller crowds and less mayhem.
Hmm...
Sun, 09/11/2011 - 10:56 — Bob_SconceI understand your concern, but note that the school district seems to have a lot of expertise dealing with mayhem of getting the right kids to the right schools and back again. The times when this doesn't happen are so rare that they're actually newsworthy events.
The news
Sun, 09/11/2011 - 14:18 — Dove314You assume that all of the serious bus events make the news which is absolutely not true. The news media likes to focus on the very rare circumstance where a child ends up in the wrong place and a parent alerts them. But transporting children involves a lot more than just the end result. There was no article when one of mine was on a bus which had the window shot out (yes, with a bullet) just after the bus left a HS despite police involvement. WCPSS definitely worked to pretend that incident never happened. Thankfully, the bullet didn't strike a child, but it did shatter the window and spray glass around, not to mention the very long delay in the drop-off while police completed their paperwork and interviews. Parents were only notified via cel phone by their children where a message was explicitly passed to not come and get the child off the bus. Nor have some other serious incidents and bus accidents where police were present, one involving hitting a child (who, in fact, ran in front of the bus) made it to the news media. And are there still more stringent rules in place after last years issues with buses, drivers, and accidents which were reported in the news? WCPSS does a great job moving thousands of children on a daily basis but, if every one just tries to gloss over the challenges and problems, then those challenges and problems can never get examined and fixed. The issues with the "hub" at Enloe need to be examined and understood if they can inform any future planned "hubs" to prevent some of the same problems occurring there just as there was an examination and changes due to the rash of the bus accidents.
Ok.
Sun, 09/11/2011 - 14:48 — Bob_SconceYou've convinced me.
This is an Excellent Fiscal Decision
Sat, 09/10/2011 - 19:15 — occum_sharpeShould have been done years ago.
Another question
Sat, 09/10/2011 - 11:18 — Dove314Does this apply to all children in a magnet school? Don't different magnet programs have different proportions of magnet attendees versus base school attendees? How would buses for those attending a magnet as their base school be handled? Would they be shifted to express buses to the nearest local HS as well? Is it East Millbrook MS that is roughly 60-80% base students and 20-40% magnet students? How would this idea work for this type of magnet school population?
Trying to have it both ways...
Sat, 09/10/2011 - 10:37 — paulastamThe GOP dominated school board talks constantly about the need for "choice" (even though we have plenty already) yet they're talking of moves that will present obstacles for some families (reducing bus options for magnet parents).
The GOP dominated school board is behind a proposed assignment plan that supposedly increases "choice" yet is packed with many unknowns. Ironically their plan will likely entail LONG bus rides for the kids that will be transported all over the county to access the proposed "single gender schools", "high achieving schools" and so on.
Seems we may have some double standards on display.
Paula, "Independent, Fair & Speaking Up for MY Kids."
This proposal would actually
Sat, 09/10/2011 - 10:31 — allkidsfirstThis proposal would actually INCREASE the overall transportation time for students in our area if stops are limited to high schools! However a stop at one of two nearby middle schools would still provide cost savings to the district and be a realistic sacrifice many can make to put $$$ in the classroom.
A process for applying for grandfathering should also be put in place. If magnet families can't make express transportation work, they are hurt two times over. They can also no longer just move back to base if the new blue plan is approved. They will have a hard time getting into a desirable school choice close to home, since they will be full with neighborhood kids who have guaranteed grandfathering and feeder patterns.
Speaking of busing, is
Sat, 09/10/2011 - 10:32 — woodstockSpeaking of busing, is Deborah Goldman's child still getting door-to-door bus service to her hand-selected school again this year? Remember... she was granted a secret, paperless transfer. I thought a change in policy was taking palce. Anyone know?
...
Sat, 09/10/2011 - 09:12 — SideburnsShe said it will also force high schools to provide staff to watch the students should parents not be on there on time when the buses drop them off in the afternoon.
Did she really say that? Can we get staff at every bus stop just in case parents can't be there on time?
Ponder the liability
Sat, 09/10/2011 - 09:39 — Dove314Perhaps you should ponder the liability issue for WCPSS. Children left unsupervised on a WCPSS property, whether their own school or one where they are dropped after school, become the responsibility of WCPSS. If a child goes missing from a school property or gets in an accident on a school property, then WCPSS has the liability? In addition, there will more non-student traffic at the school in the form of those picking up the children left at the HS which also become an extra burden for the HS staff. Express busing can be a viable solution but there are considerations and issues that have to be addressed that are unique to the Express Bus stop and don't apply when a child is dropped off within 1/4 to 1/2 mile of their home.
...
Sat, 09/10/2011 - 09:44 — SideburnsWe have express busing now. Does WCPSS provide staff members to watch children of parents who are late? I honestly don't know.
no supervision now
Sat, 09/10/2011 - 10:23 — croaswifeI am a long time express bus user. There is no supervision provided by WCPSS in case I don't show up. My part of the bargain is to show up on time to get my child or have a backup plan in place in case I'm not able to get there. Most of the parents get to know each other and look out for each other. We would never leave a child alone to wait for their parent. It works great for my family but I can see where it wouldn't work for everyone. I'm sure many households with 2 working parents rely on older siblings for childcare and those siblings are not able to drive. They need that child dropped off in the neighborhood. I do like the idea of what someone referred to as "hub" bussing where one bus comes into a neighborhood and picks up students for multiple schools and then takes them to a central location for resdistribution to the bus that takes them to their final destination. My school system in western NYS did this back when I was in high school.
Our route used to have a hub
Sat, 09/10/2011 - 10:44 — allkidsfirstOur route used to have a hub bus and it worked very well. We wished they would allow us to use the hub as an express stop! I suspect that if they made enough convenient express stops, and charged a fee for neighborhood service (waived for low income families or families with a documented hardship) many families would happily pick express and only those who truly needed the neighborhood service would opt for it. That plan would reduce district cost, while still meeting the needs of families who truly can't make express bussing work.
Exceptions
Sat, 09/10/2011 - 10:33 — Dove314Many moons ago, not all express bus stops were at high schools. In some cases, where school hours lined up, there were express bus stops at ES. This gave an option where the Express Bus riders could join the after school program at the ES bus stop (school schedules permitting). Does that still happen anywhere? OR are all express bus stops at HS now?
some ES express stops
Sat, 09/10/2011 - 11:17 — croaswifeMy elementary express bus has an ES school stop.
There is a very popular
Sat, 09/10/2011 - 10:48 — allkidsfirstThere is a very popular express stop at a middle school near a local major employer. It works very well for families all over the area.
Get the facts right
Sat, 09/10/2011 - 09:06 — Scholar1Please provide the actual $ saved before claiming that they will actually be saved!
And what about the cost of bussing for the Choice Plan? Why have we not seen the transportation cost for that yet? Is it because the actual data will show it is more expensive than our current combination of base, magnet and calendar choice?
And please stop the claims of the 2 h bus rides. The data show that the longest bus rides are 90 min. Yes that is a long bus ride, but no need to exaggerate the facts.
two hour bus rides are not uncommon
Sat, 09/10/2011 - 13:25 — NRMMomTwo hour bus rides are not uncommon. In fact, the Transportation Department may be understating the actual time some children spend on the bus. My daughter is a student at Ligon and Transportation told us to be at the bus stop at 5:33 AM (Ligon begins school at 7:30). We carpool the 30 minute drive in the morning. Ligon dismisses at 2:15, and last year and so far this year, she gets off the bus at 4:10. Transportation says the time is measured from the time the bus leaves the LAST school at which it picks up. Her bus picks up at Ligon, Carnage, Longview, Mary Phillips and Enloe, so they do not start the clock calculating the ride time until close to 3 o'clock. Meanwhile, several kids have already been on the bus 35-45 minutes, but the Transporation Department considers her ride to be 1.5 hours, within the current guidelines. Just to make things more unbearable for these kids, the bus is not air conditioned, and they are not allowed to eat or drink (even water!) on the bus when they haven't eaten since lunch before 11 AM. As a magnet parent, I accept a longer ride, but there must be a more efficient way. And in the meantime, can't they use the older buses on the shorter routes?
2 hour rides exist
Sat, 09/10/2011 - 10:25 — croaswifeLigon dismisses at 2:15. Currently my neighborhood bus is arriving close to 4:30. That is one reason we opted to use the express bus. It arrives at my closest high school at 3:15.
and the original pickup time was 5:34
Sat, 09/10/2011 - 11:19 — croaswifein the letter we received with our bus assignment. Fortunately for the children inthe neighborhood using the bus the driver knows the route well enough from last year that she's coming at 5:57 - still very early!
Uh...
Sat, 09/10/2011 - 10:00 — Bob_Sconce(1) There was a letter to the editor within the past two weeks from a parent who claimed that her child had a 2 hour ride.
(2) You're correct that the choice plan transportation costs are still hidden. But, they're likely to be significant.
(3) It doesn't take a rocket scientist or a formal study to see that money will be saved. You're replacing a traditional route with multiple stops (up to ~30 in some cases) with a single point-to-point route. School buses get 8 miles to the gallon, bus drivers are about $13.50/hour and then there's maintenance costs. Plus, this switch isn't anything new -- the district has a history of switching door-to-door bus service with express bussing to save money; if it wasn't a savings, we'd know by now.
Huh Bob?
Sat, 09/10/2011 - 10:42 — paulastamA "letter to the editor" is hardly empirical data - we do not know if that is simply a disgruntled parent overstating the case. WCPSS needs to provide us data showing the average bus rider time and the longest times - including specific routes. Such data will put to rest some of the back and forth conjecture on this issue.
Paula, "Independent, Fair & Speaking Up for MY Kids."
?
Sat, 09/10/2011 - 11:15 — Bob_SconceWho is the 'us' to whom this data must be provided? And why must the district provide that data? It seems to me that it's the school board who has to be convinced, not a bunch of people on the WakeEd blog.
Good point! Express service
Sat, 09/10/2011 - 10:45 — allkidsfirstGood point! Express service from a high school may save a few magnet students' travel time, but it might increase the time for many, many more!
There is another element
Sat, 09/10/2011 - 11:13 — Dove314This discussion about time on the bus seems to be a cover story for an underlying argument related to expense. Bus times are always alongest during the 1st couple of weeks of school as everyone adjusts to new routes, which students are getting picked up where, and more. Often, as the bus drivers repeat their daily drives, they are working on ways to make their routes more efficient timewise. Not to mention there has been little or no discussion by either WCPSS staff or BoE members on whether any changes were made in bus routes from previous years to this year explaining the 2 hours bus rides except by the magnet parent who submitted the letter to the editor where the parent implied WCPSS had intentionally set up a more lengthy route for budget reasons. Not to mention, no one is providing comparitive figures for buses to base schools or other non-magnet schools which could also be experiencing similar lengthy bus rides. If finances are the primary motivation on the discussion of bus rides, then WCPSS should own that, especially if the reason for long bus rides this year relates to cost-saving changes to routes made for the 2011-2012 calendar year which created some of long ride times which didn't previously exist. WCPSS should just be honest then and state straight out that WCPSS can't afford anything more than a neighborhood school bus with more distant base schools bus rides, choice and magnet programs to only have Express Bus Service.
Interesting...
Sat, 09/10/2011 - 07:21 — Bob_SconceVickie Adamson, president of the Ligon Middle School PTA, said a complete move to express busing would discourage some families from applying.
She is probably right about this, but it seems likely that going to express bussing may actually encourage a different set of people to apply.
Nevertheless, her implication -- that the district should not do things that discourage people from applying to magnet schools -- is both extremely expensive and has never been the district's practice.