It shouldn't be a surprise that Millbrook High School was the school board's choice on Wednesday for the new International Baccalaureate magnet program.
Millbrook was the one recommended by staff, not Athens Drive, Knightdale, Heritage or H-6 high schools. Click here for a handout from the board meeting that explains the pros and cons for each choice.
Staff acknowledged one potential drawback from magnetizing Millbrook is that it could drain students from Sanderson High.
But Anne Sherron, a Sanderson parent speaking for others at Wednesday's board meeting, said they'd rather adapt to having IB at Millbrook than deal with the reassignment consequences of leaving the program at Broughton High.
Pros for Millbrook are:
* A significant percentage of the base population comes from low-income families. (Some parents complained that Broughton had so many proposed reassignment changes to raise the F&R percentage of the base population to justify the magnet program.)
* Millbrook would be expected to draw magnet applicants from Leesville, Wakefield, Wake Forest-Rolesville, Heritage and H-6 high schools. (Asst. Supt. Chuck Dulaney told board members these schools could afford to lose students.)
* Millbrook's existing base can be easily reduced by 600 to 800 students in 2010 when Heritage High and H-6 open.
* Much of Millbrook's base area is fully developed and future residential growth is unlikely to restrict the availability of potential magnet seats at the school.
Millbrook is located at 2201 Spring Forest Road near Atlantic Avenue in North Raleigh.
Comments
http://www.wral.com/lifestyle
Thu, 12/11/2008 - 18:11 — AngelaWhttp://www.wral.com/lifestyles/family/blogpost/4122016/
Observer NY
Thu, 12/11/2008 - 11:25 — shortycanDr Cherry the coordinator for the IB program here spoke directly with the IBO last week, this information I am quoting in this email was confirmed by her with a conversation she had with the IBO HQ..I believe their comments were" why are you dismantling one of best programs out there, one we use as a model IB program" however I also believe they were hesitant in "getting in the middle of the school board decision"
I will agree with you, putting stock in magazines does one thing.. validate what people want to hear...thanks for the comment.
Shortycan
Thu, 12/11/2008 - 12:12 — ObserverNYThank you for clarifying the exact comments made. IBNA regularly cites whatever IB school happens to be in an area as a "model IB program". In my case, IBO cited South Side HS in Rockville Centre, NY as the "model" for Long Island. ANY school running the IB program could technically be labeled a model. You see where I'm going with this?
Two things to remember - First, your IB Coordinator is chief propagandist for IB in your district. It is their job to defend and promote IB, even if that means misleading you to believe the word of IBNA as gospel.
Second, follow the money. Never lose track of the fact that IBO is a company just like The College Board is a company. When it comes to public money, it is incumbent on BoE to consider the transparency of the companies it is buying products from.
IBO refuses to disclose the salary of its top executives. The CEO of the College Board makes around $600,000. Why won't IBO release this information?
How can a global organization survive on $60M a year and do a good job?
If you find the guts to directly start asking questions for hard facts about IBO, you will become a target. Those who don't buy the IB rhetoric will be shunned and called ignorant (among other not very nice names). It is the only inquiry based program that doesn't want anyone to inquire about it.
Observer NY
Thu, 12/11/2008 - 16:15 — shortycanThanks for the info.. Although I am not here to defend the postion of the IBO...the numbers regardless are very high at BHS and doing very well, the point of the story here in Raleigh NC is how the BOE can be influenced by a small percentage of people who will promise them a seat somewhere down the line,a handful of individuals making dinner party decisions that affect alot of people in the area.. This town definately does not have a shortage of "good ole boy networking" believe me I have lived in many places in this country as well as
Europe. I am an outsider looking into this I gathered my facts, one of
which being an email incriminating the mothers who decided to put this
deal together with someon on the board to get rid of the program after originally voting yes to the rezone
barely 3 weeks ago, until they found out they were zoned out.. this is an injustice to the sytem a system that parents believe that was suppose to do the right thing by them.
The moving of kids every year due to the rezoning in this area is nothing as I have seen , there are so many issues that affect this problem..between the tremendous growth here, not requiring builders to pay for portions or setting land aside for new schools to accomodate growth, and economics. There have been many families affected by rezoning, some going to 3 different schools in as many years . I think bussing children for over a half hour to meet the economic needs is absurd, and the sole reason they create these magnet programs here in the first place 20 yrs ago..being such a small community it pits parents and schools against eachother.. why?..I know of many other schools that have managed to make neighborhood schools work, this place is not a large city like a NY or an LA, where the magnet programs are needed. All Parents want their children to have a good education, I think it is possible that ALL schools here should suceed as BHS has, there is no doubt there needs to be restructure of our system, but I do not think or believe BOE will ever change this system , so we turn to the magnet programs, we turn to them in order to keep structure in the kids lives by starting them in a magnet pathway from the lower grades, instead of wondering every year if this is the year you may be zoned out to yet,another school. If these magnet programs are working and doing what they are meant to do, they need to be kept in place regardless of what connections a parent has.
Why the dislike of IB?
Thu, 12/11/2008 - 14:49 — Bob_SconceWhy do you dislike the IB program? I know a few parents who have gone through the program and think it's excellent.
Bob Sconce
Thu, 12/11/2008 - 16:20 — ObserverNYThe reason I dislike IB is exactly because of what it causes in American public schools - divisiveness and controversy. Look at some of the back and forth in this blog - awful! It pits parents against parents, patriots against multinationals. The IB program, by design, is not a good "fit" for American public schools. IB supporters across the country seem to feel a sense of entitlement to this Swiss program, and the rest of the public be damned! This is hardly the road to global peace when small school communities are forced to take sides.
IB is fine in a private school for those who choose to pay for it.
IB is fine in a self-contained magnet where it can operate without interfering with the rest of the school.
Any other application of IB in public schools is a recipe for disaster.
Truth About IB
The above website is the collaborative work of parents from NY and PA.
Interesting
Thu, 12/11/2008 - 17:48 — Bob_SconceI am extremely well acquainted with the "Upper St. Clair" situation listed on that website you point to. The website is pure one-sided sensationalism and has only the slimmed, most tenuous root in fact. (Long story short: conservative community with history of excellent public schools, IB classes taken by ~1/5 of students. New extreme-right school board majority comes in, decides, among a bunch of other bone-head decisions, to cancel IB because it offends their "Judeo-Christian values" and "promotes reason over faith." Parents sue. School district settles, keeps IB. New election, voters kick out school board majority by electing every candidate the majority opposed, including the current president of the national school board association.)
There are plenty of things which cause controversy among people on this blog -- we don't cancel them all. The problem with magnet schools is that the hoard the best educational programs to themselves. The solution is to make those programs more available, not to cancel them altogether. The cost of keeping an IB program running is fairly low -- ~$10,000 annual fee. If the district wanted to start a new one at Millbrook, it could have done so without cancelling the one at Broughton.
bob Sconce
Thu, 12/11/2008 - 18:28 — shortycanI have never seen anything so politically driven in a school system as it is here, however, all though I am disgusted with how this change was done, my point being on all my blogs I agree with you.. I would like to see these IB programs distributed throughout the entire county.. they have good programs and the kids are getting a good education.. I suppose the politics will not cease within the BOE and possibly no chance that change will ever happen.
Out of curiosity I was at that hearing,Now, unless this was a facade on the BOE's part, numbers were presented by several of their auditors to the panel, the numbers were a bit staggering.. over $818,000.00 for Enloe and a little over $500,000.00 for BHS this included, teacher salary, training, supplies..etc
In order to start a new program it broke down like this, they used conservative numbers from past years(as they quoted).. I rounded down, I wanted to make sure I had bulk of numbers before they removed the sheet from overhead and go on to next question..
phase out BHS
1st yr 519,000 '09
2ndyr 517,000 '10
3rd yr 306,000 '11
4th yr 209,000 '12
5th yr 213,000 '13
phase in new program
1st yr 77,000 '09
2nd yr 485,000 '10
3rd yr 519,000 '11
4th yr 502,000 '12
5th yr 511,000 '13
so anyhow.. I'm not pleased with the new taxes they will bestow upon us..
The handout that broke down
Fri, 12/12/2008 - 10:49 — KeungHui (author)The handout that broke down the costs by category is part of today's post about IB timelines for Broughton and Millbrook.
Shorty
Thu, 12/11/2008 - 18:55 — ObserverNYThanks for proving Bob Sconce's $10,000 quote to be completely out of whack.
I would like to see these IB programs distributed throughout the
entire county.. they have good programs and the kids are getting a good
education..
Why, so you can force the IB program on everybody and drive your taxes through the roof? What evidence do you have that IB students are more successful graduating Wake County than AP students? That would be AP that costs the district NO ADDITIONAL MONEY unless it picks up the cost of the exam.
Pfft..
Thu, 12/11/2008 - 20:15 — Bob_SconceThat's completely disingenuous. The lion's share of the IB costs that Shorty provided are teacher salary. That's why the costs go down over time at Broughton as the IB program drops--there are fewer students, and (thus) fewer teachers involved. But, if you just stopped the IB program and told all the teachers "you're not doing IB this year," you would still need to pay them to teach exactly the same students. It's just that now the money will come out of a different pot.
If you want to look at *additional money*, then you have to ask things like "What fees does the IB program charge?" "What is the marginal cost of IB continuing training over continuing training that the teachers would ordinarily be doing?" "What is the *additional* cost of administration?" What are the audit costs?
Most of the costs of the IB program are start-up: the school must be authorized by the IB people, and the teachers have to go through training.
The AP program also has marginal costs -- teachers need to be certified to teach it, and the courses need to be authorized. The AP program also has additional costs.
I'm not trying to argue
Fri, 12/12/2008 - 08:57 — Eric_BI'm not trying to argue with you here, just curious...
I know that the lion's share of the IB costs Shorty cited are teacher salary costs, but if the true cost of an IB program, once startup costs are accounted for, is only ~$10K per year why can't every high school have an IB program?
Why do teachers' salaries, which would have to be paid in any case, come out of the IB magnet budget?
WEll...
Fri, 12/12/2008 - 10:09 — Bob_SconceSo, $10K is, approximately, the annual authorization fee. There are also costs which are shifted. For example, teachers typically take some sort of continuing education every year -- if they're IB teachers, they take it from the IB people. And, there are miscellaneous costs, some of which are exaggerated by IB opponents ($5,000 postage?? The postage budget for the entire district is only $250K.) Unfortunately, the WCPSS budget doesn't break spending down into sufficient detail to determine what any particular program costs.
In any case, there are two answers to your question: First, there are significant start-up costs: the school has to be authorized and the teachers have to get certified to teach the program. Second, if the program is unpopular, then you end up with half-empty classes, which wastes resources. I assumed that this wouldn't be a problem at Broughton (to my knowledge, it's not now.)
I don't know why the figured teachers' salaries into those numbers. That seems screwy to me, too. But, I've discovered that many people are cowed by numbers and do not try to understand them as they should.
Bob
Fri, 12/12/2008 - 10:35 — ObserverNY($5,000 postage?? The postage budget for the entire district is only $250K.)
The $5,000 figure I quoted is what is budgeted in my tiny district of 2300 students, roughly 20 of whom are IB DP students each year. I have posted the actual budget pages from my district on the website. Why would I make something like that up? For a district the size of Wake County, I expect your mailing costs to be closer to the $20,000 mark.
Why? Because all correspondence, submission of exams and papers for assessment, everything, must be sent via DHL. The rest of your county's mailings are distributed via bulk-rate mail. This does not apply to IB documents and correspondence.
Eric
Fri, 12/12/2008 - 09:18 — shortycanI was there I saw the numbers. the cost that are broke down did include the salaries, training, books, supplies etc.. that was total cost
Teacher salaries
Fri, 12/12/2008 - 09:39 — Eric_BI'm questioning why teacher salaries are lumped in as an IB magnet cost if the teacher would otherwise be teaching students at the school. Presumably now that Broughton's IB program is being phased out they will not get rid of all of the IB certified teachers. They'll just end up teacher other classes like other honors and AP clases, right?
If that is the case why would teacher salaries be included in the $500K figure? I would ask a similar question of the $2 million cost for starting an IB program at Millbrook and a $1.8 million cost for continuing IB at Broughton until it's phased out.
Eric
Fri, 12/12/2008 - 09:54 — shortycanYes as of now those teachers do teach AP IB honors, at this time their comments were that the teachers at BHS would stay at BHS, you have teachers already at Millbrook, they would be lookin to train them, . the cost of the $2 Mill was over the 4 yrs or 5 yrs while phasing out one and at the same time phasing in the other.
$500,000 a year
Fri, 12/12/2008 - 09:50 — ObserverNYThat sounds about right for a district your size. Bravo to Wake County for being honest about the cost of the IB program. By including teacher salaries, residents are able to see the true impact on their ever increasing property taxes.
While I must say it is unusual to come across an area that actually does factor in teacher salaries, IB supporters must realize the following: Even though those teachers MAY teach other non-IB courses, a certain percentage of their time is being dedicated to only IB. IF they were teaching other courses instead, their salaries would be accounted for in the general budget under Instructional Salaries. They're not being paid twice. The district also has to account for the salaries of non-IB-certified substitutes who must be brought in to cover for IB teachers when they are off on their out of state/country IB training trips.
Eric
Fri, 12/12/2008 - 09:16 — ObserverNYBecause $10,000 a year is not the TRUE cost!
IB Fees and Services
That is an official IBO source. That does not include textbooks, postage, ongoing teacher training, curriculum development, IB Coordinator stipends, seminar fees and speaker fees. All of these additional costs tend to be buried in budgets and are difficult to locate, but they are there.
bob
Thu, 12/11/2008 - 21:06 — shortycanDont even buy into observers rhetoric.. her blogs are everywhere, and they are all the same she goes by the name of lisa on some of the Washington Post blogs.. the girl has some issues and hates everything there is about education in general..she is a bit crazy as you can see from reading her posts.
Bob
Thu, 12/11/2008 - 20:44 — ObserverNYPlease provide evidence that The College Board charges to audit/approve a school's AP curriculum.
Please provide evidence that The College Board requires teachers to be "AP certified".
Please provide evidence of The College Board charging for authorization.
You can't. It doesn't exist. If you find it, I'll eat Santa's hat.
Thanks for the background
Thu, 12/11/2008 - 18:25 — Eric_BThanks for the background on IB, but I thought the information the board had showed the Broughton was receiving something like $500,000 per year to run the IB program most of which went to teacher salaries.
I'm not sure how much of this went to IBO, though...
I take Truth seriously
Thu, 12/11/2008 - 18:20 — ObserverNYThe website is pure one-sided sensationalism and has only the slimmed, most tenuous root in fact.
Ya don't say Bob..... hmmmm. So all of those links to verifiable sources, actual budgetary documents, dissertations, etc etc are one sided sensationalism?
No Bob. IB represents the extreme left, yea, the Socialist ideology while we represent Libertarian/Republican ideologies. It is up to OPEN MINDED readers to determine which ideology makes more fiscal and educational sense for our public schools.
Whatever anyone's ideology, I challenge you to find a single FALSE fact on our site. Go ahead. You prove something we've said about IB that is false, back it up with a verifiable source, and we'll be happy to retract it with a correction.
Btw, you left out the part about the IB parents bringing in the ACLU to sue the duly elected Board majority who had the audacity to think IB was a superfluous program and vote to eliminate it. (4 DP students). That was extremely pleasant, don't you think? (cough, cough)
The cost of keeping an IB program running is fairly low -- ~$10,000 annual fee.
Bob, Bob, Bob.....what are we going to do with you? That's just to get your Mickey Mouse ears. There's roughly $5,000 in postage, $75-$100,000 in on-going training fees, student registration fees, textbooks, IB Coordinator salary, stipends for an EE and CAS Coordinator, speaker fees, IB field trip fees......$10,000 pishaw......silly Bob!
Lisa, step away from the blog
Fri, 12/12/2008 - 14:31 — NCParentBob, for God's sake ignore her. Please, everyone, ignore her and she'll (hopefully) go away. You have no idea how frequently this woman posts on educational blogs about this stuff, same crap different blog. If you want to read her tripe, go to the Washington Post's education blog and just pick a topic that includes IB or AP.
THANKS NCPARENT
Fri, 12/12/2008 - 14:41 — shortycanThanks ncparent.. thats what I haveblogged.. YOu need to paste it in all these other trhreads.. what a menace.. it is amazing how she seeks you out with good intentions then patronizes you and baits the other bloggers into it.. amazing..
alright
Thu, 12/11/2008 - 22:02 — Bob_SconceI'm going to just ignore you after this post, not because you're right, but because your tone is demeaning and self-righteous and I think you're a troublemaker. As I said before, I am exceedingly familiar with the Upper St. Clair IB issue, and the website for which you now claim responsibility so butchers the facts and so maligns the pro-IB side that it's clear that you are pursuing your own crusade come hell or high water. I know propaganda when I see it.
Among so-called religious conservatives in this country, there is a small contingent which ardently believes that the IB program is a subversive program intended to bring marxist ideology into the classroom and undermine the values on which this country was based. Because (I suspect) this sounds a bit looney, they have instead found that focusing on purported costs of the IB program is more convincing. But, who seeks out blogs in remote school districts only to post about how they're wasting money on one program?
Bob_Sconce
Fri, 12/12/2008 - 07:31 — ObserverNYBut, who seeks out blogs in remote school districts only to post about how they're wasting money on one program?
That would be me, Bob. First, I apologize if you found my "tone" demeaning and self-righteous. However, I don't know why, (if you are as sane and intelligent as you claim to be), you would immediately lump yourself in the group of IB supporters who seek to apply the labels of "looney" and "troublemaker" to ME. Why make it personal? Does it make you feel better? We are discussing a program(me).....an educational product........its design......its content......its regulations.......its parent corporation...........its ideology.......and yes Bob, its tremendous cost to taxpayers.
So, like all of the other IB supporters across this great land, instead of debating the FACTS, you are going to call me names, call me an extremist, call my information bogus and run away.
Break the pattern, Bob. Prove yourself to be an independent thinker.
P.S. - Did you forget to post that information on the College Board to back up your erroneous claims?
welcom
Thu, 12/11/2008 - 10:53 — Forget_not_the_...Welcome to the real world...this is the frustration the parents who live in the county deal with daily--with MYR, busing, reassignment and no, no, no magnet elementary options less than 30 minutes bus ride away.....
Farmington Woods
Fri, 12/12/2008 - 06:25 — vsheehanFarmington Woods
Shortycan
Thu, 12/11/2008 - 10:57 — ObserverNYI DO know that BHS is an exemplary school for the National IBO HQ in NY for North America..it is number 1,
Have you ever heard the saying "self-praise is no praise"? Has IBNA given you any sort of official "list" backing up that claim? According to the newly released U.S. News & World Reports Best HS List, that #1 IB position goes to International Academy in Bloomfield Hills, MI.
Not that I put any stock in either the U.S. News or Newsweek Best High Schools Lists, but they are independent sources, rather than the company that doesn't want to lose revenue if another one of its programmes goes down the drain and will tell IBelievers anything they want to hear.
http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/high-schools/2008/12/04/best-high-schools-gold-medal-list.html
BOE has to change
Thu, 12/11/2008 - 10:41 — shortycanTo Kevin Hills credit along with the other 4 who voted for the IB program to stay, the 4 individuals had valid concerns with the cost if starting a new program in this poor economy. Now with the IB program going to Millbrook, this will still drain Sanderson HS as this was SHS complaint about Broughton when the SHS representative stood up there encouraging the board to do away with Broughtons IB status. The rezoning in this area is something I do not understand, I DO know that BHS is an exemplary school for the National IBO HQ in NY for North America..it is number 1, why dismantle something that is working regardless of the economics. This tells the parents and schools that if you succeed, it will be taken away or if the parents have good connections and do not like the decisions that the BOE makes, (which is the case with the Mothers off Anderson road who began this), it can be taken away. Although it was obvious to me after watching how this board conduct their meetings, that redistributing monies to other schools and bringing up thier standards to BHS is inconceivable to them,and will more than likely never happen. The real problem seems to be with the new construction and the builders not being responsible to pay for new schools in order to support the new growth, and the school boards fault for not insisting on this from the city. If you look at almost every other state who has this kind of growth, they figured that out in the beginning, so they do not have this issue with redistributing kids every year..The "good ole boys network" has got to stop, and the thinking that "BHS is a birthright," which was a statement from a mother in the Anderson area is no longer something other families in Wake County should tolerate. It's not a birthright it was a decision that the BOE made due to the growth, we pay our taxes as everyone else..and speaking of such..WAKE COUNTY open your wallets to the 2 million dollars we will be shelling out due to the self serving individuals who did not get their way.