Not supporting lifting the charter cap

a couple of years old but still may be a good reference .. Q: Would opening additional charter schools help? A: If the legislature lifts the cap on charter schools, it would barely make a dent considering 7,000 new students enroll in the Wake County Public School System a year. Currently, charter schools accommodate less than 3 percent of Wake County students. WCPSS's first priority must be ensuring the strength of the school system that serves the vast majority of students in Wake County. In 2004-05 only two of the 14 charter schools in Wake County served more than 600 students, and 20 percent of the students in those two schools came from outside of Wake County. The median size of a Wake County charter school in 2004-05 was 197 and the average size was 324. Finally, as noted in the report of entries and exits from the Wake County Public School System during the past year, while WCPSS sent 442 students out to charter schools last year, 495 entered WCPSS from charter schools. (http://www.wcpss.net/bond/faqs.html)

"Our school has an F&R of 32%"

Sorry, I thought you were one of the parents from single digti F&R schools.  We are in the 30's too like is EVERY OTHER school in the county except maybe 5 schools "golden schools".  And yes if our F&R decreased by a couple of percent and the single digit F&R schools increased by a couple of percent I don't think it would be that bad.

"Looking at only F&R students at both schools however, Smith had higher scores than West Lake.  That was my point."

Also, you need to factor in that Smith is a Title I school and the Smith F&Rs get more funding from the Feds so they may have individual tutors that Westlake can not offer.  Would that suggest bussing all the F&Rs to a few schools Title I school to get their scores up?

"BUT it actually costs less public money to send them to that charter school."

I thought the state gave charter schools the standard $5000 that every school in the state gets so the cost is the same either way.  I think, the State is financially indifferent between the two options.

First, I thik we had some confusion on the data.  It appears to me that Smith with high F&R has 15% of the kids not passing while Westlake with lower F&R had only 7% (going from memory) so it appeared that high F&R meant worst scores. 

From my experience I have seen a lot of smart and dumb F&Rs and non-F&Rs so there is a range.  **** I think in general the lower the economics the lower the scores which is not a surprise because wealthier folks have more resources, may spend more time with their kids, can afford SAT tutoring, enrichment summer camps, and may just value education more.

*** example of dumb non-F&Rs - those kids from Apex and Panther Creek who killed that other kid.  I looked up there addresses in Google - beautiful large homes in wonderful neighborhoods and they threw it all away ...

"You're the one who said schools had to reflect the population" No, I didn't. I never said anything of the sort. I will try to make it more clear. What I said was: they DON'T represent the demographics of the county, so I don't think they necessarily deserve their reputation for success. When you start with an elevated population (academically and economically), it is much less difficult to produce high test scores, high grade level achievement  and good grades. Some of the rest of you do make good points, in terms of the imbalance of many of our traditional public schools. I completely agree with that.

Point #1 For a moment take eyes off Wake County and consider the charter cap impact statewide. The way the cap works, at any given time only 100 charter's are issued statewide. The state has 100 counties. If a county (like Wake, Guilford, Mechlingburg) consumes more than one charter, another county in the state is thereby denied the opportunity to operate a charter school. At a minimum the cap should be expanded to permit any geographic area of x number of miles currently excluded from charters the opportunity to have them. When a large county consumes 6 or 8 of the total charters available that means 5 or 7 other counties are denied the opportunity. The Wake County School Board could have chosen to support sister counties statewide by including in the agenda an option for counties currently excluded from charter applications. They chose not to do so.

Point 2: The charter school cap applies to all grade levels of schools. Statewide, 100 maximum charter schools allowed at any given time for all grade levels. Consider the problem, even if in theory each county had one charter school and those schools each served students in grades k-8, there would be no path to a charter high school in any county. The situation as it exists is that most of the charter schools throughout the state are elementary schools. Even those who support the cap should support an adjustment that would extend the cap for x number of charter middle and high schools.

Point 3: Charter schools do not receive taxpayer funding for capital construction or costs. Leases for space, playground equipment, computers, facilities construction and maintenance....for charter schools must be otherwise funded. Each time you read articles about school renovations for cafetoriums, parking lots, remodels, tennis courts, technology replacements via bonds and tax increases for the public schools, keep in mind charters must find funding to pay for the space in which they operate and the capital expenses required otherwise than by the per student allotment. Wake County claimed/claims to face capacity crisis from lack of facilities. Imagine if suddenly all the students attending charters and/or homeschooling were forced into the public schools....where would they put them. The charter schools in Wake on the whole have provided seats and contributed to the management of growth. The refusal of the BOE to recognize the value they have provided without requiring further capital expense by the county is shameful.

 Point 4: When any school that does not mandate assignment of its population by government action opens anew, consider how substantial the choice by parents to opt for the unknown and untried truely is. When a charter school opens with a waiting list, a huge statement is made. Efforts to discount how big a statement that is completely ignore the level of either concern parents applying have related to the other options available and/or faith in the potential of the charter's offering.

Point 5: If Wake County adopts the position that charter schools should not be promoted or the cap increased, should the county fairly be allowed to count test results from charter schools in their overall averages for passage or failure amongst Wake County students? Shouldn't the county be required to demonstrate what the county has contributed to the success of a school in order to claim success for the results?

Point 6: Is the argument really ever appropriate that because a school earns the trust and enthusiastic support of parents that in doing so it unfairly competes against other schools? Honestly, have we reached the point where success is to be resented and prevented at all costs? Those who fear or complain about the competition of charters to the rest of the public system should be required to explain why over the years the charters have existed best practices that have demonstrated results have not been employed to the benefit of all students and/or failures noted and learned from.

Point 7: Wake County should simply not be allowed to claim a capacity crisis and simultaneously refuse to support options that serve to supply capacity without imposing additional costs to the county.

Point 8: The argument that charter schools do not provide transportation ignores the numerous students allowed to attend other schools in the public system if the student's families provide transportation. Those who oppose charter schools faught to assure charter school students did not receive many of the public services other students do (including transportation). Opponents should not be allowed to use the lack of providing transportation as an argument that the charters are not as diverse because of it, when it is a condition they knowing established.

Point 9: The State BOE approves school charters. How often are the charter schools that fail compared to those applications for the same charter which were denied by the State BOE? What level of responsibility lies at the State BOE's feet when they approve one charter application versus denial of another?

Frankly, the Wake County Board of Education should state clearly why they refuse to support any extension of the charter cap. The members who vote to deny more seats for more students to be served in Wake or other counties in the state by those motivated to open charter schools, should be required to justify why they opt not to do so. Each time they complain to the State or the County or the taxpayer that they lack the funds to do the work of educating students they should have to justify why they explicitly deny the opportunity to have motivated charter applicants do so.

Just read your other comment, the one with the unicorn and the rainbow. Nice. I live in Raleigh, you don't have to explain how things work. You're missing my point. I'm not talking about how students socialize and interact when they're at school (and, again, thanks for speaking for me - that "evil racist white kids" thing was lame). I'M SAYING: charter schools (the two in N. Raleigh) are allowed to represent their performance as if their population were the same as traditional public schools, when it is not. I'm talking ACADEMICS here, not lunchrooms. Now, I really am outta here. I hate this blog when people start to get rude and nasty.

That's kind of an apples and oranges argument. However, I have neither time nor desire to get into a debate over the diversity policy. Last day for the kids to be in school before two weeks off - busy, busy, busy!

A Public Speaking model? What is that? So, they got their charter based on their mission to address AG+LD, and then changed their model between the time they got their charter and the time they ran their lottery? There are several schools in the WCPSS that are also doing a great job servicing all levels of need - the elementary my kids attend is one.

I hear what you're saying, but it's not a moot point (F&R and transportation). I'm not complaining about the fact that they don't offer F&R and transportation, I'm complaining about the fact that they are allowed to present themselves and their results as if they had the same demographic make-up and challenges as the average public school, when they absolutely do not. It is state-sanctioned, tax-payer subsidized white flight.

You have hit on a few things about charters that no one else seems to be addressing. No, for the most part, charters do NOT reflect the population at large. When a school says everyone can apply, but then doesn't provide transportation or free and reduced lunch, you can bet there is a segment of the population that will not apply. And when they state at their open house that parents are expected to log a certain number of volunteer hours at the school, then in a household where both parents work (or a single parent household), again...you can bet those folks will not apply. And when, at the open house, they make a point of telling parents that their odds of getting in are practicall nil, based on the number of applicants, that's right...they probably won't apply. So, as you have insinuated, it's not surprising when these schools post much higher test scores than the traditional public schools - they sucked the high achievers with the more affluent, involved parents, who have more time to spend at the school right out of public schools. It would be shocking if they DIDN'T have significantly higher test scores! Now, there apparently has been some adjusting of admissions practices, at one of the schools, after some parents forced the issue, but based on the above, I'd bet there is still a very low percentage of low income families. And another question/observation: when a charter school says it will meet a specific need (i.e. AG+LD, as with Endeavor), how can they do that AND have a totally random lottery for admissions? If your kid IS AG+LD, but their chance of getting into the school is the same as a kid who does not have those issues, how does the school really meet the needs of those kids (as well as the needs of the mainstream kids)? It doesn't make any sense! It is just another avenue for exiting public schools.