The school board shot down a proposal today to have staff research whether students are benefitting from the diversity policy.
School board members Ron Margiotta and Horace Tart argued for having the Evaluation and Research Department track the performance of students who are assigned for diversity reasons. They said it would help show whether trying to balance the percentage of low-income students at schools is succeeding.
But other board members at today's student achievement committee meeting disagreed. Some said a study wasn't needed while others said it wouldn't be possible to do a valid study.
As noted previously, Wake has only done one study that actually tracked students who are reassigned for diversity reasons. But the authors of that 2004 study concluded that too few students were in the sample size to develop valid conclusions.
Instead, over the years Wake has pointed to research showing that high-poverty schools don't do as well academically. Most recently, school leaders have pointed to how high-poverty schools in Charlotte are doing much worse since the district abandoned diversity.
The initial discussion today was whether an updated study is needed.
The issue, according to David Holdzkom, assistant superintendent for evaluation and research, is that you can't statistically show how a student would have done if he wasn't reassigned.
Holdzkom said you can try to see how that reassigned student would do compared to similar students at his old school.
But Lori Millberg, chairwoman of the student achievement committee, said there are so many variables trying to compare the students that it wouldn't be "statistically valid." Furthermore, she said she knows that Wake's policy works.
"I've been at these [high poverty] schools," said Millberg, whose children have attended schools in Eastern Wake. "The stress on the teachers, the stress on the schools. I don't need any further study to see if our diversity policy is working."
Board member Beverley Clark said they can't just think about how the diversity policy impacts individual students. She argued it can't be ignored how hard it is to get teachers to work at high-poverty schools.
"As a school board, we have to be worried about the entire school system, the turnover of teachers and the overall working conditions," Clark said.
After much discussion, no one made a formal motion for a districtwide study.
But Tart asked Holdzkom if he could see how the students who were recently reassigned out of North Garner Middle School to West Lake Middle School are doing. They would be compared with similar students at North Garner.
"We have to start somewhere," Tart said.
Because Tart isn't a member of the committee, he couldn't formally make the request. It was left up to Margiotta, vice chairman of the committee, to make the motion.
But the motion died when none of the other committee members seconded the request. In addition to Millberg, committee members Eleanor Goettee and Anne McLaurin said they didn't feel the need for the study.
Millberg argued that it would be hard to control for how the students at North Garner should be benefitting from efforts to reduce the school's F&R percentage.
Comments
Ditto
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 22:03 — local23Joe..could not have put that any better! I too moved 1/2 mile down the same road, only to realize if I have stayed after 4 years, we actually would have gone to the school we wanted to in the first place...hahahahahaha
Insantity yes..because I also know if we had stayed and gone back to the school to our neighborhood school, it would not have lasted, because they would just reassign again..yes I am in western wake between Green Hope High School and Panther Creek! Yes we are being bused to East Cary Middle School..go figure this mess - 51 students..can you believe that I am considering moving again, just to hope weI can attend the correct middle school (Mills Park)?? I figure I would be pushing the border..., might need to move into the next county!!!
If I knew 16 years ago what
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 22:45 — joeciullaIf I knew 16 years ago what I know now, perhaps I would have bought a mobile home and just move IT around as the schools changed.
Can't you just claim you're homeless
Wed, 12/10/2008 - 08:50 — Voice_of_Reason_Didn't I read recently that you can claim any school as yours then? Who are they to question or deny, it's a civil rights thing after all. :^)
Of course everybody could claim F&R status and really screw up things, we don't have to worry about the law since they never prosecuted (at most 2% will be dropped), only that integrity thing. I'm one of those that has that thing.
LOL:)
Wed, 12/10/2008 - 08:32 — vsheehanLOL:)
I read a post or a letter
Wed, 12/10/2008 - 08:09 — gwaihirI read a post or a letter somewhere (I am trying now, to remember where) rather like this. The writer said that when his child reached high school, he would be selling their house and renting another house in the Apex High School area.
Then if there was a reassignment, their family would simply move to another rental house that was still in the Apex High catchment area.
(I think it was Apex High, anyway.)
Do you mean they can't
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 20:34 — shank56Do you mean they can't convince the County Commissioners and taxpayers to first fund the schools...??
and who knows, should they
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 17:47 — AngelaWand who knows, should they back a study, they might get surprising results?
Study: U.S. students improve in math, science
But some Asian countries have edge in math that keeps growing
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28141411/
Other findings released Tuesday include:
In the U.S., black and Hispanic students still had lower math and science scores than white students, but the gap between them generally shrank since 1995, except for the gap in math scores between white and Hispanic fourth-graders, which didn't change. Closing this achievement gap is a federal priority.
Girls are closing the gender gap across the globe, with half the countries showing no difference in test scores between boys and girls. In the other half, girls did better in a quarter of the countries, and boys did better in a quarter of the countries. In the U.S., boys did slightly better than girls in fourth-grade math, but the gender gap disappeared by eighth grade.
Finding qualified math and science teachers is an increasing problem around the world, especially in fourth grade. Fourth-grade teachers reported little specific
Don't forget
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 17:19 — jonoflockeOne of the selling points for busing for diversity is that diversity itself benefits all the students. So really the studies are already being done; just see how well the schools are performing.
ncdad--I haven't heard
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 17:06 — jenmanncdad--I haven't heard anybody say that they don't want 'undesirables' at their school. Nor have I heard anybody say that integration isn't good. What many of us question, however, is the distances that some of these kids are bused.
For instance, is it really worth it to bus kids 18 miles one way to Green Hope Elementary? 2 nodes of kids who are getting bused there this year (unless they opted out of YR) came from Underwood. Underwood is a magnet with 25% F&R. Why did they need to be moved out of Underwood in the first place? Its a healthy school. They were exposed to lots of opportunities and extras at Underwood (music lessons, foreign language, etc) that they won't get at Green Hope. Will their parents be able to pick them up at Green Hope when they are sick? Will their parents be able to participate at all?
Also, as VOR and Bob Sconce have pointed out, these kids aren't always getting the resources that they need at their new schools. How prepared are the new schools to deal with ESL, woefully behind kids, etc? What is done to ensure that they have the resources they need? Title 1 schools get extra funds to help out low performing students--what are they getting at their new schools?
You are jumping to the most extreme conclusions about our motives and our desires and it makes the situation worse. Wanting to look at the diversity policy and whether or not its working does NOT mean we want to get rid of it entirely.
I think it is past time for
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 20:47 — gwaihirI think it is past time for the regulars on this blog to post "Please Do Not Feed The Troll" every time ncdad1 posts something.
In my opinion, enough people have now corrected his assumptions of their motives to make me suspicious that he persists in throwing out those same old assumptions. I think he just wants to inflame.
If "Please Do Not Feed The Troll" isn't polite enough, then how about "Asked and Answered".
I'm not sure, we have changed some trolls minds
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 21:58 — Voice_of_Reason_If what ncdad1 says is true about his education, then I actually think it is a bit enlightening to see a view that some, including in the school board see. He has a view that some blacks feel strongly about. My biggest complaint about ncdad1 is he is prejudiced against wealthy people and he argues with feelings, not facts. I find this disturbing that an Ivy League graduate can't argue better. I'm just a state university grad, but if I argued my point like that in the military to a general officer, I would be kicked out of his office. It only took me once to learn my lesson, luckily that was early in my career. But then maybe he is just a Blog Troll playing with us . I kinda suspect that because of his use of English in earlier posts. Who knows, it may even be a she in disguise. Whatever.
"My biggest complaint about
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 22:59 — ncdad1"My biggest complaint about ncdad1 is he is prejudiced against wealthy people and he argues with feelings, not facts."
I am not prejudiced against wealth folks ,I am trying to get people to open up to a few things:
Everyone is trying to get an advantage for themselves. Let's be honest. They want to get some top performing local school in their neighborhood for their Johny to get him into Harvard and increase their property values. They don't care about the poor kids elsewhere, their poor performing schools, their long bus rides, etc. They care about themselves. I bet many secretly think those folks deserve what they get. Maybe so but not their kids. That selfish nature is part of being human.
Personally, I think fortunate folks should give back to the community by being part of failing schools and using their time, resources and leadership to improve them. I just don't think smart, talented folks should run away from these problems. I understand why you would but I don't think it is right. I am sorry those are my "feelings" of right and wrong and I don't have facts to back them up. Facts would tell me to be selfish and get all the advantage for myself.
If folk on this blogs have been getting all their ideas and opinions approved without dissent you all are either always right or need some diversity of opinion.
P.S. English is erratic because I am an engineer more at home with numbers than words.
if you're an engineer, why are you so stuck on feelings?
Wed, 12/10/2008 - 07:57 — fiestamomIf you are an engineer, I'm surprised you're not swayed by facts, and seem to be ruled by feelings. And the way you accuse of us not wanting"those children" is very insulting. You are rude, sir!
I'm not an engineer, (not even close). But I'm all about LIBERTY, not diversity.
Let's disect this
Wed, 12/10/2008 - 08:37 — Voice_of_Reason_I have an engineering degree too, (even though I haven't used it in 30 years because the military wanted me to do something else), I don't use that as an excuse, a university degree is more than a technical degree:
Let' see ncdad1's resume:
BS in Engineering from Geogia Tech (a school with a excellent Electrical Engineering program BTW)
Master's degree in Business Administration from Ivy League Dartmouth
Both degrees should tell him that gut feelings are not what you should base decisions on. Gut feelings are often wrong, especially if you don't have all the facts.
ncdad should read a bit of history, the road to ruin is often paved with good intentions.
"Both degrees should tell
Wed, 12/10/2008 - 09:21 — ncdad1"Both degrees should tell him that gut feelings are not what you should base decisions on. Gut feelings are often wrong, especially if you don't have all the facts. "
You are absolutely right that there is no factual reason for me to stand up for the poor and less fortunately folks and voice their cause. I understand why it is so hard for to understand.
That's a load of Hoo-ee
Wed, 12/10/2008 - 10:04 — Voice_of_Reason_There is a reason to HELP the poor achieve. It is not good for society to just ignore part of it. But what we can't sink into your mind is that we care. The fact is the diversity policy is not helping the poor and is hurting the more affluent. It is a LOSE-LOSE policy. We are advocating a WIN-WIN policy; your way can be proved wrong and the BoE will not let us do it. We have a lot of evidence that supports our belief. You might think you are standing up for them, but you're standing in the way.
The biggest problem is Elementary Schools, because those kids don't have any opportunity to group; middle and high school they can take advanced classes at least. If I saw the poor benefiting to a significant degree due to this policy, I would be the first on to drop this battle. But I don't, in fact I see the opposite; and my kids suffer too. That's what the facts say, not my feelings.
It is not right to tear down one group to help another, it's better to build the lower group up.
If you want a confession
Wed, 12/10/2008 - 05:59 — Voice_of_Reason_OK, I am human, I want to give my children the OPPORTUNITY to excel. I do not push or even want my kids to go to Harvard or any other Ivy league school ( I personally think they are over-rated) unless they want too. I have made it clear to them I want them to work hard to try to earn a scholarship if they want to go to a private college. I want my children to achieve to their full potential. And yes I care about that over the needs of the community. GUILTY ! SO WHAT !!!
BLOODY HELL, I'M NOT A COMMUNIST ! I BELIEVE IN THE AMERICAN DREAM -- WORK HARD AND GET REWARDED. IF I DON'T WORK HARDER, I DON'T WANT NO STINKING HANDOUT UNLESS I CAN'T PROVIDE FOR MYSELF, IT MAKES PEOPLE LAZY. If I have to live in a tent and eat beans, I can do that. I have done that. Money wise government only OWES me what I contractually earned or paid into (AKA Social Security). I want my local community to provide police & fire protection, schools, roads, libraries, urban planning, and parks for kids to play in I believe in equal opportunity, not equality. AND GUESS WHAT, I AM NOT ASHAMED !
OH YES AND I AM TIRED OF THE ENTITLEMENT MENTALITY SOME PEOPLE HAVE. Talk to God, he didn't make everyone equal either, except in his eyes. We were all born to different circumstances, with different talents; it is up to us to make the best with what cards we were dealt. As a society I believe we give a hand up, not a hand out.
And oh BTW, You say rich people should give back to the community. WHO DO YOU THINK PAY FOR THE SALARIES OF ALL THE PEOPLE THAT WORK IN OUR GOVERNMENT, AND ALL OTHER THINGS INCLUDING SCHOOLS, IT SURE ISN'T THE POOR! THEY ALSO PROVIDE JOBS THAT LET PEOPLE FEED AND SHELTER THEIR FAMILIES. YOU SHOULD BE GRATEFUL TO RICH PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY CAPITOLIST RICH PEOPLE. I AM -- QUIT CUTTING THEM DOWN !!
AND ANOTHER THING, You don't need fancy buildings to make a good school, you need local involvement, local schools, like churches form the core of community. WCPSS strip that core away whey they keep shifted people around. Parents don't want to pour a lot into a school for that may or may not be their school year to year; that the problem. GOT IT ! Wake County Political Leaders, not rich people, have failed all with the growth planning for schools, promoting growth without forward thinking for schools. If they did, a lot of this constant reassignment any MYR would not be necessary.
I'm off my soapbox. Have a good night, sleep on what I just said.
Thank you. Don't you feel
Wed, 12/10/2008 - 09:29 — ncdad1Thank you. Don't you feel better now. As I said before, government makes everything equal across the board. They produce the same type road, same signs in the same color, with people driving on same side of the road. Government is all about uniformity. Trying to create your own personal paradise on the public dime can not work. I think WCPS would much rather have all 80% schools than half 60% and half 100%. It's just government's nature to gravitate to average.
Right
Wed, 12/10/2008 - 12:13 — SideburnsSo, you do recognize that WCPSS is all about the overall school percentages than individual student achievement. Spreading subgroups thin across the county brings all schools (not students) to 80%. Is that better? On paper, perhaps.
The Board has just stated they cannot/are unable/are unwilling to research whether students are actually benefitting from Policy 6200. The county system may look "better" as a whole (all 80% rather than half 60% and half 100%) but are all students benefitting as the policy states?
That's BS and you know it
Wed, 12/10/2008 - 09:47 — Voice_of_Reason_If that was true, you are confusing setting standards with equality. There is no strive for equality, only equal access. Equality couldn't even be achieved in a communist authoritarian society; it is impossible. Why do you think people move around, going toward average as a goal is a sure recipe for failure. I DON'T WANT EQUITY, I WANT TO STRIVE FOR EXCELLENCE; ALL BENEFIT IN THE LONG RUN !
Hey if you want a well documented discussion on this diversity thing with lots of analysis and data read this link A Rebuttal to WCPSS Diversity Policy.
So, you are not interested
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 21:32 — ncdad1So, you are not interested in hearing any other view point. Surely, you would want to hear what other folks think out side your immediate neighborhood.
Pot, meet kettle.
Wed, 12/10/2008 - 07:57 — gwaihirPot, meet kettle.
gwaihir : ditto
Wed, 12/10/2008 - 09:30 — Dadof3I think I wrote that -- a few posts back. It is as if ncdad1 is either incapable or insincere of understanding a contrary point of view -- as expressed by his saying the contrary point of view to his listeners' satisifaction.
Instead, he starts from a strawman that is, "in his experience," the default from which all progress stops.
I don't think he's a troll, though.
"For instance, is it really
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 17:26 — ncdad1"For instance, is it really worth it to bus kids 18 miles one way to Green Hope Elementary? 2 nodes of kids who are getting bused there this year (unless they opted out of YR) came from Underwood."
What seems strange is the folks who are most worried about the welfare these kids coming from downtown to Green Hope is not their parents but the folks recieving them.
You would think with all the benefits and concerns you listed, that the Underwood parents would be on here demanding their kids stay downtown.
Ahh the kids parents did
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 22:42 — vsheehanAhh the kids parents did voice their opinion. They didn't send their kids. Thats why GHE is going back to Traditional.
Hmm...
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 17:52 — Bob_SconceWell, I don't know about being on this blog demanding that, but my recollection is that parents of students being bused generally do not like it. I don't have a link at the moment, but the last time kids were reassigned to Wakefield, there were interviews on TV and (I think) in this paper with parents of kids being bused, and they didn't like it. Also, if you recall, at the same time that the MYR thing came out, there were a number of F&R kids who were bused to a new school. The district went through great pains to tell those parents that if they opted out, they would not be returning to their previous schools.
Thnk about it: you're a poor family, trying to do the best you can. Now the district wants your kids to get up 45 minutes earlier so they can go to a school that you can't get to on a bus and, even if you could, would take at least an hour. Then, they return 45 minutes later than they do at their current school. Now, there's no time to play with their local friends (who they haven't seen all day) because they have homework. Meanwhile, friends whose kids have been bussed report that their kids do worse at their new school.
did you mean this?
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 18:43 — AngelaWhttp://www.newsobserver.com/front/story/521733-p2.html
Some Washington Terrace families say they want to stay at Joyner largely because it's closer. Joyner is three miles away while Leesville is 12 -- a much longer bus ride.
Donna Sorrell, whose son attends Joyner, said many Washington Terrace parents don't have cars. "If my child is sick, I can't get to him at Leesville," she said.
Sanders said she also wants her children to stay at Joyner, but resents the insinuation that the children of Washington Terrace would bring down education at Leesville.
Bob, maybe it is the higher
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 18:02 — ncdad1Bob, maybe it is the higher level of competition these parents are seeking being in a peer group where people are expected to study and expected to go to college. Maybe it is more AP classes or class offering that draws them to the suburbs. Folk drive way across town to Enloe in search of a better school with more challenging offerings.
Great.
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 18:30 — Bob_SconceSo, you're suggesting that those parents ought to be offered a choice in the matter? I fully agree. Heck, I would like to see that model extended. Among other things, create some choice by lifting the cap on charter schools.
But, you can't use that "peer group" thing -- if the idea is that kid A's parents expect him to go to college and kid B's don't, then I suggest it's more likely that kid B will convince kid A *not* to go to college as it is that kid A will convince kid B to go to college. It's easier to convince somebody not to do something hard than it is to convince them to do something hard. Enloe is really two different schools that happen to occupy the same building -- very little mixing happens between the base and magnet students.
Yeah, they can just get on
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 17:32 — Eric_BYeah, they can just get on their computers, use their high speed internet connections to download the assignment plan and maps and analyze the reassignment plan to find out they are getting moved 18 miles from their homes. Then they can go lobby the school board, attend CEM meetings and get things changed, right?
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 16:55 — culbreth56Bureaucrats NEVER support analysis of their work -- that would be accountability and bureaucracies, like bacteria, thrive in the dark.
Where to begin....?
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 16:18 — fiestamom" Millberg argued that it would be hard to control for how the students at North Garner should be benefitting from efforts to reduce the school's FR percentage."
So, uhhhh, it's too hard to do a study to see if diversity bussing works, but, just trust Lori, because it's working?
Then Clark states :"As a school board, we have to be worried about the entire school system, the turnover of teachers and the overall working conditions,"-
I notice that Clark doesn't mention the turnover of the students!!!!
If that don't prove that this is not about edumacating the students.....
No Diversity Study
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 15:32 — MissVThis is a sad position taken by the Board, however, a wonderful opportunity for the News and Observer to conduct THEIR OWN STUDY! Nothing sells more papers than an investigative story that exposes the truth.
Witness the small number of minority parents who have attended the reassignment meetings! It's not that parents don't care: it's that they've been led to believe that they are victims and should be grateful for being so.
Unfortunately....
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 16:26 — Bob_SconceThat study really can only be done by somebody with access to student performance data. And, the only people with that information is the district.
Why would we spend money on
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 16:14 — ncdad1Why would we spend money on any study during a time of financial crisis like now when we are on the verge of laying off teachers to balance the budget?
think
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 16:18 — joeciullaBecause if we are not helping anybody with busing then we can eliminate that cost from the budget. I'm sure we spend more on busing than we would have to invest to run a study. WCPSS has all the data they need.
If you are trying to keep
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 16:46 — ncdad1If you are trying to keep the "undesirables" out of your school, I don't think the busing angle will work.
I thought I heard that WCPS pays $5M on transportation of which the "undesirable" don't make up all the cost.
Out of $1.8B budget (thought that was the number, may be wrong), $5,000,000 is only 0.28%.
On other Boards I am on
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 22:35 — vsheehanOn other Boards I am on when it has been proven without a shadow of a doubt that someone is a TROLl and the moderators don’t kick them off people just ignore their comments or answer with:
“Troll Troll Troll”
The person gives up and goes somewhere else to insult people. Ncdad1 obviously refuses to see we are not trying to block people out of schools but would like to go to our neighborhood schools on a traditional track. Ncdad1 does not see how bussing kids around masks the problem and does not allow other ways of fixing the problem to be initiating (smaller class size, more specialist, more afterschool enrichment) .
So ncdad1 I say “TROLL TROLL TROLL”
Undesirable
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 17:32 — joeciullaThe only undesirable person that comes to mind right now is you. Putting words in other people's mouths is childish and petulant.
The School Board has no data to suggest that F&R busing is effective, do you? Put up or shut up.
ncdad1 - Please stop the
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 17:21 — Eric_Bncdad1 - Please stop the trolling.
Many of us only want to see a study showing if busing for diversity is working or not. Are we supposed to just take it on faith that current district policy is working? Apparently Lori Millberg "knows" it is working. Shouldn't we measure the actual performance of those who are being bused to try to determine the benefit or harm in current policy?
To many of us the current policy just looks like WCPSS is spreading around the high needs population to avoid dealing with the issues. Is it so wrong to want the problem dealt with instead of shuffling kids around? Are the high needs kids really being served or just shuffled around so they can be ignored?
"To many of us the current
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 17:49 — ncdad1"To many of us the current policy just looks like WCPSS is spreading around the high needs population to avoid dealing with the issues. "
Eric, that is the discussion I would like to get to that this is about "high needs" / "low income" / "undesirable" who no one wants.
Some show concern that these kids are on a bus for a long time, their parents can not participate in PTA, they are better with their peers, or they have more Title I resources at their own school so stay there. Some think that by cutting the bus budget, they can prevent these kids from reaching their school. Other are concerned about how disruptive and ill behaved these kids are and the influence they will have on their kids while others worry with too many low income kids there won't be enought AP classes offered for their college bound kid. All those concerns are legitimate. Let' just be truthful. We worked hard for what we have and don't want these kids messing it up for our kids.
Personally, I don't think the "haves" are willing to pay the high price necessary to improve these kids to where they pass and graduate. We say we support it until our taxes are raised or we notice that this school gets more than that one.
I think that government has given up because of all the conflicting demands and is putting everyone is a big pot so no one can whine about inequity. Since every school in a public system should be more or less equal why would it matter which one you go to (ok, this one is a little closer and save on gas).
ncdad1 - Who said no one
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 20:30 — Eric_Bncdad1 - Who said no one wants these kids? Nobody has said that. We all want to know how best to increase the educational opportunities for everyone.
This issue is how do we even know whether what we are doing now is working if we don't even measure the results? The school board is not even interested in studying whether the current approach is working. How do you make progress with that kind of attitude?
If the study is done, maybe the results will be that it is fabulously successful in helping high needs, lower income children. If that is the case, it would silence a lot of critics of the policy.
The fact that the school board does not want to hold themselves accountable and measure the results of their policy decisions speaks volumes as to their belief in whether what they are doing is really working.
Eric, what about the fact
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 21:37 — ncdad1Eric, what about the fact that people keep moving here and we keep winning best place to live in the US. Seems like the WCPS must be contributing to that in some way. I know it is not exact but it seems many people prefer what we have over what they left.
projection
Wed, 12/10/2008 - 08:00 — fiestamomThe one who keeps saying "no one wants these kids" is NCDAD.
TROLL TROLL TROLL
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 22:38 — vsheehanTROLL TROLL TROLL
Then I say let's measure
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 21:49 — Eric_BThen I say let's measure the improved performance of all of these groups we are "helping" through busing and make national news in some peer-reviewed journal of education.
You still haven't said why you think we should not measure what "busing for diversity" achieves.
high price
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 17:59 — Bob_SconceI don't believe that the results you want can be accomplished by paying a "high price," at least not in mooney. As has been pointed out elsewhere, the district in Kansas City was given, almost literally, a blank check -- there was a lawsuit, and the judge said "Tell me what you want, and I'll order them to provide the funding." The result was a disaster.
The best bet, I think, would come from a serious restructuring of the system that aligns the incentives of the school administration with the needs of the students. A good first step would be to lift the cap on charter schools in NC and force some measure of competition.
Bob, What do you think
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 18:27 — ncdad1Bob,
What do you think the "goal" should be? The goal drives the metric. We use to educate a select group of folks well and left other to fail / not graduate / etc. Now with No Child Left Behind, they have to address the needs of Special Ed, Limited English, minorities, you name it ... every boat has to float.
I think competition is a good motivator but maybe the comparison should be to surrounding or similar counties. But again what is the measurement? Graduation rate? you can lower the standards to make that one. Cost per student? ...SAT scores .. make sure only smart kids take the test to get that one. ABC ... maybe? .. do you educate all kids, a select few like India and Korea or just give up on some like Special Ed? I personally would like to see fewer college courses and more trade courses offered... I don't think most people need to go to college given the number of graduate working at the mall where a HS business concentration would have been enough... also, the salaries plumbers, electricians, mechanics, welders, etc. is not bad.
Hmmm....
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 15:20 — Bob_Sconce"Evidence, we don't need no stinking evidence."
So Lori Millberg is concerned with whether their decision-making process is "statistically valid," but then goes on to use anecdotal evidence (her own) to justify the decision. Talk about not being statistically valid! ("Confirmation Bias" comes to mind.)
The amazing thing about all that "research" presented by the school district is that you would expect them to cite research showing that busing kids around brings net gains. But, they don't -- at most, they found one study (#12) with a favorable outlook on Wake County. Sure, there's a lot of evidence that poor students don't do that well in school, but nothing really that says that they do better when you mix them with affluent students. Heck, #19 shows a way to improve education *without* moving kids around.
I've been at these [high
Tue, 12/09/2008 - 15:15 — AngelaWI've been at these [high poverty] schools," said Millberg,
really? in Wake? what constitutes her idea of "high poverty"
http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1326650.html
Median household income
Highest: Wake County, $61,984
Lowest: Robeson County, $27,948