The Northern Wake Republican Club says "it's time to fight back" by showing up to support Wake County school board member John Tedesco at tonight's reassignment public hearing at Garner High School.
In this e-mail message today, Heather Losurdo, president of the Northern Wake Republican Club, says she feels disgust and determination after last night's hearing at Southeast Raleigh High. During the meeting, supporters of the old diversity policy ripped into the school board in general and Tedesco in particular.
"I am angry because of the accusations of racism aginst [sic] John Tedesco, subtle as they may be, simply never cease," Losurdo said. "Supporters of the status quo have shown a complete lack of civilty [sic] in this entire debate, even to the point of threatening John Tedesco's livelihood."
Supporters of the old diversity policy have gone after Tedesco more than any of the other board members..
Coincidentally, today is Tedesco's birthday. He turned 36.
Losurdo says "it is time for those of us who support John and the others that we helped get elected, to stand up for them, and do it in a very public way."
The Northern Wake Republican Club endorsed the four school board members who were elected in 2009 and gave them campaign donations.
Losurdo is asking people to arrive at 5 p.m. to register to speak at the door. The hearing starts at 6 p.m. There were a total of 17 speakers who signed up before the online registration period ended.
"Bring some of your friends that feel the way we do, that are fed up with our values being deliberately misrepresented and attacked," Losurdo says.
Comments
Who are these people...
Thu, 01/20/2011 - 16:26 — bpuli9999making "subtle" accusations of racism against JT? I thought Barber et al were actually calling him a racist. His "community zone" plan was as racist as it could get - whatever his intentions. She calls that "subtle"? Funny lady.
Teddie Bear
Thu, 01/20/2011 - 16:26 — oldrwizrI still love the line he spouted on his national TV interview about how the trouble with poor people is that they're spread out all over the county (Wake is diverse, says he) and since they're "diluted" we can just "ignore them". His solution is to crowd them into ghetto schools to make their problems easier to solve. How he can say that in front of a camera without cracking up laughing is beyond me. He should try out for a roving reporter role on the Colbert Report.
While I agree it could have
Thu, 01/20/2011 - 23:36 — jeffrey1While I agree it could have been worded differently, I don't think you understand the history or the rationale behind that thought process.
The diversity busing policy in Wake County, allowed WCPSS administrators to spread the problems associated with ED kids to different schools, such that there were little or no high-poverty schools in Wake County. This allowed business leaders to claim "See there are no high poverty schools in Wake County. Bring your business to Wake County where you will no problem attracting great employees, because everyone wants to move to Wake County, where we don't have any bad schools."
And indeed that was true and a fair claim to make. However, many of us started to look deeper. It's great that there are no bad schools, but are there children in all those good schools who's needs are not being met. And when you take off those rose colored glasses, you see that something is rotten in the state of Denmark. Those ED kids are being hidden in relatively good schools. Sure we have 80+% of kids at grade level in each and every school. But what about the kids that are not at grade level? There's a few in this schools, and a few in that school, and a few more in the school over there. And when you add them all up, there's a lot of kids who are not receiving an adequate education. They are falling through the cracks, yet no one wants to notice them, because there are no bad schools in Wake.
Returning kids to their neighborhood schools will create some high porverty schools. But the idea is that it will be much more difficult to hide behind a false facade, and hopefully, with proper attention (and yes that includes funding, these very needy kids will have a future.
And one more thing you forgot Jeffrey
Fri, 01/21/2011 - 11:33 — Voice_of_Reason_The NCLB Act does not provide any protection for those children being sent to non-Title IX (AKA low poverty schools). Nor are those schools assessed penalties if they don't meet Average Yearly Progress goals. So problems can be hidden, penalties avoided, and children left with no recourse. Title IX provides no funds to non-Title IX schools. If you go with the premise that SED busing works, wouldn't it work better if you took the reduced lunch students or better performing of the high risk students and bussed them? I don't think the pro busing crowd would buy that though since the poverty concentration would be even greater in theory. Personally, I do the busing crowd would be happier with the overall results though.
It's great that there are no
Thu, 01/20/2011 - 23:56 — user12345It's great that there are no bad schools, but are there children in all those good schools who's needs are not being met
Why is it you can meet the needs of poor kids living in the neighborhood but not the "hidden" ones bussed from the neighborhood down the road? Is it because they are a different color? You would think that every school would help ALL kids independent of their race and income.
Why is it you can meet the
Fri, 01/21/2011 - 00:00 — jeffrey1Why is it you can meet the needs of poor kids living in the neighborhood but not the "hidden" ones bussed from the neighborhood down the road?
What's the incentive? There are no bad schools in Wake.
Note: That is WCPSS' and the Raleigh Chamber of Commerce's response, not mine. I care about the health of the student much more than the health of the school.
What's the incentive?
Fri, 01/21/2011 - 00:21 — user12345That the children are human beings?
If you have poor kids in your neighborhood school who are "hidden" and neglected today, I do not see how moving some from one school to another will improve anything ... if your affluent school was neglecting the poor neighborhood and non-neighborhood school before why is that going to stop after you move a few down the street to another school?
That the children are human
Fri, 01/21/2011 - 02:39 — jeffrey1That the children are human beings?
Exactly. You would think that that would be incentive enough for the likes of WCPSS administrators and Raleigh businessmen. BUT APPARENTLY IT IS NOT! Prior to the election of the new board, how much talk did you hear about the failing ED kids in Wake County? ABSOLUTELY NONE. ZIP. NADA. ZILCH. THE BIG GOOSE EGG.
Nobody talks about poor kids who are slipping through the cracks in the educational system. The news shows don't report on it. The newspapers don't report on it. The Chamber of Commerce sure doesn't talk about it. It's like it did not exist. If you move kids back to their neighborhood schools, and some high poverty schools are created, people may scream, rant, rave, and protest, but maybe, just maybe we'll finally hear Raleigh businessmen calling for more private and public support for these schools. Perhaps, the BOE and the WCPSS administrators will consider more funding for more programs to help those in need. Maybe we can start a volunteer drive, with the aid of local businesses, who give their employees 1 hour off per month (with pay) to volunteer in a local school.
Perhaps we can shine a light on our relatively low tax rates and maybe, just maybe we can get some support from both democrats and republicans for a modest tax increase. Perhaps news shows and newspapers can do stories on how students who don't receive an education wind up costing taxpayers more in the long run, because they don't become taxpayers themselves, but instead rely on government handouts, or worse, end up incarcerated.
There are thousands of other ideas out there that could benefit failing kids if only we focused on students, as individuals, instead of so called "healthy schools." Geez user, take off your blinders and consider the possiblities.
But I guarantee you that none of that is going to happen as long as these kids remain hidden and dispersed throughout the county. We'll just go along, reaping all that national recognition for pretending to care about the education of ED children, while we further their demise. "Come to Wake County," our businessmen will shout, "where there are no bad schools." The only thing is...
The Emporer Has No Clothes
Pleas explain
Fri, 01/21/2011 - 07:37 — user12345But I guarantee you that none of that is going to happen as long as these kids remain hidden and dispersed throughout the county. We'll just go along, reaping all that national recognition for pretending to care about the education of ED children, while we further their demise. "Come to Wake County," our businessmen will shout, "where there are no bad schools." The only thing is...
Why do you think:the only way to help the "hidden" kids is by moving them to another school? I understand the WCPSS is missing the opportunity to help certain segments that they have been missing because they never cut the data that way. But I don't understand why if they are not taken care of in school A and B now that moving them to school B will help. There are poor kids in every school that should be helped now and it seems like you are saying the only poor kids who are going to get help are the ones concentrated in poor schools.
Second, it appear that you are using the JT argument that the system has ignored poor kid in a quest to make healthy schools and the way to reverse that is to concentrate them in a few mega poor school so we can make a media event of their suffering so the public will finally demand a change? Did I get that right?
Second, it appear that you
Sun, 01/23/2011 - 02:17 — jeffrey1Second, it appear that you are using the JT argument that the system has ignored poor kid in a quest to make healthy schools and the way to reverse that is to concentrate them in a few mega poor school so we can make a media event of their suffering so the public will finally demand a change? Did I get that right?
You are twisting words a bit.
There is no doubt that the low achievement of ED students has been ignored - you don't disagree with that fact do you? Well then, what is it going to take to bring some attention to the issue? We must do something different!
Busing is a crutch. It allows people to feel good about themselves, and believe they are doing something good. Don't worry about additional needs, don't worry about being below grade level, don't worry about graduation rates, etc. There are no bad schools in Wake. What I am suggesting is that perhaps we need to create a few bad schools in Wake. Now I don't agree that a high poverty school is a bad school. I use the term BAD, because that is what you and a majority of the pro diversity crowd will classify them as -- BAD. But judging by the attention that the mere suggestion of a few high poverty schools gets from folks like you, I can't help but predict that diversity policy supporters will let those schools exist without making a huge fuss. Which is exactly what we need.
Wouldn't it be great if we could here Raleigh businessmen shouting, "Come to Wake County where no matter what school you go to, the needs of the students are being met!"
With regard to taxes, the hard core neocons on this site will have to soon recognize that our property taxes are some of the lowest in the entire country. Our school funding is among the lowest in the enttire country. Is there some waste out there? Perhaps. But even if you stripped the entire administration up there on Wake Forest Road to the bone, we still would be underfunding our kids.
Good governing is about compromises. And I am willing to support a modest property tax increase in exchange for neighborhood schools, with the understanding that the proceeds from that tax increase go directly to the schools that need it.
Wouldn't it be great if we
Sun, 01/23/2011 - 16:20 — user12345Wouldn't it be great if we could here Raleigh businessmen shouting, "Come to Wake County where no matter what school you go to, the needs of the students are being met!"
Agree ... we should not accept having a system of good and bad school. I measure that by people's angst about what school they go to. I know that we have arrived when people are indifferent to which school their kids attend .... like not caring if you go to the McDonalds' 5 miles the west or east .. they have the same menu ... personally, I think by having all good (not necessarily great) school across the county that we can better utilize all the space and infrastructure .
Agree on taxes ... again, I just want to see WCPSS get the average for the State and than push for them to have above average results. More can be done later but that would be my first step.
the fallacy
Sun, 01/23/2011 - 17:18 — loriac'I know that we have arrived when people are indifferent to which school their kids attend'
Comrade, people will never be indifferent as to which school their kids will attend. They will buy their houses based on what school is the base, they will research schools to see which meets the needs of their kids the best. Parents know what is best for their children - give them real information, give them a choice. Some schools will have a different focus than others depending on student needs/talents/history. This isn't about cookie cutter schools, it's about meeting the needs of the kids and educating them.
What is there to research
Sun, 01/23/2011 - 17:35 — user12345What is there to research ?... same number of state employed teachers, teaching the same courses, same govt issued desks, using the same state mandated book, taking PE at the same time ... I just don't see what could be so drastically different. That is the nature of public school.
i feel bad for you
Sun, 01/23/2011 - 19:17 — loriacYou are such a BOT - you should move to China. I actually feel bad for your kids.
The whole point is that involved parents will not just blindly send their kid to a school, whether it's public or private. Many will actually visit the school, talk to other parents, talk to the principal and teachers. It's the people, the community, the teachers and principal, the other parents that are important. BTW - even with public schools, it's a sell job. Competition is good, comrade - it will help make the schools better. Once parents buy into a school, they will work like heck to make sure it is 'the best' for their kids.
I pity you and Rosa Gill with your vision of 'no such thing as neighborhood schools', and your nameless little BOT kids marching to their nameless COG school.
Hey ... the teachers and
Sun, 01/23/2011 - 20:49 — user12345Hey ... the teachers and principal should be rotating around to get more experience so talking to them is great but they won't be there forever .. so buying a home because you like the principal is a bad idea.
Thanks, User, for that gem
Sun, 01/23/2011 - 21:19 — loriacThanks, User, for that gem of wisdom. You are so perceptive. I'm sure people will be so glad that you pointed out that a principal may not be at a school forever.
I don't like your socialist
Sun, 01/23/2011 - 21:08 — woodstockI don't like your socialist vision of the world.
That's a surprise.
Sun, 01/23/2011 - 23:35 — Andrew95That's a surprise.
"Same menu?" Bad idea. It is
Sun, 01/23/2011 - 16:39 — woodstock"Same menu?" Bad idea. It is things like this that let us know you don't get it. Even McDonald's as cookie-cutter as they are gets it to some extent and tailors their offerings to the communities they are in.
they are gets it to some extent and tailors their offerings
Sun, 01/23/2011 - 17:41 — user12345well you better work on some community consensus ... today, there are a number of people wanting to dismantle the magnet system because is extents and tailors its offering ....<if I can not have it, no one can attitude> ... Also, I am not sure why you would tailor school to the community .. doesn't every community want a good education? ... are you talking about offering plumbing classes in communities with more plumbers?
Every conversation with you
Sun, 01/23/2011 - 18:57 — woodstockEvery conversation with you seems to have to start from scratch. You know perfectly well the targeted resources that have been discussed here. Of course I am talking about afterschool programs, weekend academies, after-school and weekend computer centers, mentorships, tutoring, maybe even health and nutrition assistance and education, counseling etc. The mix and extent of these resources would align with community needs.
Magnet schools are a bad example. The do not align with the educational needs of communities, in fact they only minimally serve the communities they are in. More then anything, they align with the educational wants of a specific targeted group that already has many of the resources and support they need to succeed academically.
Of course I am talking about
Sun, 01/23/2011 - 20:54 — user12345Of course I am talking about afterschool programs, weekend academies, after-school and weekend computer centers, mentorships, tutoring, maybe even health and nutrition assistance and education, counseling etc. The mix and extent of these resources would align with community needs.
So you think some schools will have these and some not? So, Leesville will get weekend computer center, Wakefield some tutoring, Broughton some mentorships, and Garner some health and nutrition assistance because that is what those communities want / need?
I can't help but predict
Sun, 01/23/2011 - 14:44 — jenmanI can't help but predict that diversity policy supporters will let those schools exist without making a huge fuss.
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They already do exist and guess what? Diversity policy supporters haven't made a fuss at all! They haven't cared that those schools already exist.
So.....
Mon, 01/24/2011 - 07:44 — chaboard.They already do exist and guess what? Diversity policy supporters haven't made a fuss at all! They haven't cared that those schools already exist.
.......if true, what does that say about John Tedesco's theory that if we create high povrty schools we won't be able to ignore the problem anymore because the kids won't be spread all over the place? If we're already ignoring them in non-diluted high poverty school then isn't the fundamental assumption behind his plan pure fantasy?
They already do exist and
Sun, 01/23/2011 - 16:12 — user12345They already do exist and guess what? Diversity policy supporters haven't made a fuss at all! They haven't cared that those schools already exist.
Barwell, Barwell, and again I say Barwell ... what does it take jenman to get credit for a fuss?
Ok, you have said things.
Sun, 01/23/2011 - 18:49 — jenmanOk, you have said things. I'm not sure I count it as a 'fuss' since I don't think you do anything except complain on the blog. And even then you're all over the place with posts meant to goad people rather than find solutions. But yes, you have mentioned Barwell. I've not seen any letters to the editor about this topic and although I suppose you could have written letters to the BOE members, I doubt that you have. Forgive me for being pessimistic about your actions but an anonymous person who likes to spout out baseless insults on this blog doesn't inspire much confidence in me.
Can you tell me who else has mentioned anything about high poverty schools? Certainly none of the old board members have, not for several years. Morrison, McLaurin, Hill & Sutton are upset that the new board may create some, but they have turned a blind eye to the ones that have already been created. Barwell has been high poverty for some time now, as have several other schools, but nobody has even looked at them until now with the new board. It is not moving as quickly as we'd like but at least it is on the table.
I don't know why I need to
Sun, 01/23/2011 - 21:10 — user12345I don't know why I need to be the one to champion Barwell ... personally, I don't know why any failing school needs an advocate ... fixing the failure should be so obvious that it does not need a champion or fuss or a PAC.
Can you tell me who else has mentioned anything about high poverty schools?
Who cares about high poverty school unless they are failing. Academic performance is the focus which we can not seem stay fixed on ..... Yes there is a great likelihood that high poverty school are also failing but it is not a given. And yes I am not interested in concentrating all the poor kids in a few high poverty mega school for a media event of how bad they are like JT advocates to expose the hidden kids.
My point with Barwell is that it has failed from day one ...it is a neighborhood school like the BOE wants to move to .... according to conservative dogma, the community was suppose to take charge and transform the school from bad to good ... has not happened ... another Republican pipe dream .... Barwell has been at the bottom of the entire state at times ... personally, I don't know what the point of bring another school if they don't care to fix the worst of the worst right now.... jenman, it appears the BOE only respond to donations and PACs.
You are so full of it
Sun, 01/23/2011 - 22:32 — jenmanYou are so full of it user. Barwell has been targeted as one of the Rensaissance model schools. Barwell isn't the only school that has been high poverty and not performing well. This isn't about the new board. This is a problem that has existed for years and nobody has cared because those schools weren't in SE Raleigh. It would be a killer politically to allow the SE Raleigh schools (the old ones that were historically segregated) to get to that point, but Barwell is OK.
(I should mention that Wilburn has had the TAP program in place for several years so something was being done for Wilburn.)
Why shouldn't you be an advocate for Barwell and other schools like it? Using your logic, nobody should ever have to advocate for anything. But that's not the way the world works. Man up already and put your money where your mouth is. It's much easier to sit behind a keyboard, complain about what everybody else is doing and cast aspersions on the motives of others than it is to get off your butt and do something. Good lord, grow up.
1) if I am spending all my
Mon, 01/24/2011 - 09:02 — user123451) if I am spending all my time advocating for my child's school why would I wander around looking at other school? That causes all kinds of problems where you advocate for something the school's parents do not want and you may not understand.
2) We isn't the BOE advocating for the failing schools? The Area Supt? Actually, there should be no room for a random parent across town with all the people whose job it is to be an advocate.
3) I know lots of work and investment had gone into Barwell and recently they moved off the bottom to a little higher. Still, the school is an excellent example how neighborhood schools are failures. Barwell is the neighborhood school model JT is trying build and we are getting a glimpse of what the future will look like.
BOT
Fri, 01/21/2011 - 14:43 — loriac'Why do you think:the only way to help the "hidden" kids is by moving them to another school?'
BOT - so this is your talking point for the week? Talk about oversimplifying - where have you been the past 2 years.
That is what JT said ...
Fri, 01/21/2011 - 15:42 — user12345That is what JT said ... they are hidden now and he wants to expose them by concentrating them in a few schools where the public can see how badly they treated ...that is suppose to cause a revolution of people who will change the situation once it is exposed for everyone to see ...
Two tier system
Fri, 01/21/2011 - 23:05 — Solon77With the premise that any student not passing is being hidden, I guess we are destine for a multi tier school system. If you pass the EOG/EOC you go to one school, if you don't you are assigned to a different school. This assessment would be performed every year to ensure no one student falls through the cracks and is hidden from the valuable services so needed.
I think you forgot about the
Sat, 01/22/2011 - 00:45 — user12345I think you forgot about the "classes" of students .. where only poor and powerless ones whose parents do not belong to PACs or the GOP are subjected to that constant moving ... paraded in public so they are not hidden anymore..
With one missing point
Fri, 01/21/2011 - 09:00 — Dove314The public will demand a change that does not involve any tax increase because tax increases are bad (according to JT).
Tax increases are bad, JT is
Fri, 01/21/2011 - 09:23 — woodstockTax increases are bad, JT is certainly not alone in that. When will we ever pay enough in taxes to suit you? Current budget challenges are not a matter of more money, it has to do with priorities. For intance, I think education should be funded at a higher level. But that does not mean we have to raise taxes. I suggest that we make education a priority by appropriating a greater proportion of the tax revenue to education and cut all the unneeded and redundant programs and reconsider what is the responsibility of our government to deliver vs. what is the responsibility of private citizens and industry.
Funding education is an investment in the future; the more we invest in education, the less we need to spend on crime prevention and prisions, welfare, social services, etc.
And where are the taxes coming from
Fri, 01/21/2011 - 12:13 — Voice_of_Reason_Property tax revenue is pretty much recession proof if you take out the growth factor. Property taxes did not go down with decreased property values. Even empty homes still pay property taxes (Albeit late sometimes, but they must be paid or the property can be auctioned off for the taxes due ). The real problem is the State in how they allocate money. And of course growth in wealth. How do you encourage the rich to move here an improve their land or property to increase revenues and provide jobs that increase revenues also? Raising property taxes is not the answer. Impact fees on new residential development IMHO are part the answer because it would increase costs to build and have a trickle up effect on the depreciating property values. Another thing could be a tax on home purchases if you move from outside of the county, exempting those that are upgrading to another home. this would be fair because those individuals are getting the benefits of previous taxpayers. But all taxes and fees have pros and cons, so everything must be weighed. I would say a small county wide sales tax increase would be the answer, but the left would scream that it is a regressive tax..you can't win. My proposal is a 1 cent sales tax with a five year time limit, the money from that tax would be specifically for school infrastructure improvement. A citizen panel of business leaders would oversee the money and how it is spent, but the improvement projects must be spelled out and prioritized before the tax is implemented. Any money left over would go into programs specifically to help high poverty schools. And this proposal would be put to a vote by all people in the county.
It worked in Oklahoma City google MAPS for Kids , (it was modeled on MAPS (a downtown rejuvenation project there). I can testify that this was one of the best success stories for government that I have ever seen. OKC is similar in population to Raleigh, but with a lower per capita income. And it has burbs, and is spread out just like here.
http://www.okc.gov/maps/index.html
Impact fees on new
Sun, 01/23/2011 - 02:27 — jeffrey1Impact fees on new residential development IMHO are part the answer because it would increase costs to build and have a trickle up effect on the depreciating property values. Another thing could be a tax on home purchases if you move from outside of the county, exempting those that are upgrading to another home. this would be fair because those individuals are getting the benefits of previous taxpayers.
These kinds of taxes were tried and found to be illegal. When the Town of Cary imposed impact fees, developers took them to court and won.
I would say a small county wide sales tax increase would be the answer, but the left would scream that it is a regressive tax..you can't win.
There is no disagreement that sales taxes are among the most regressive taxes out there. Low income families spend most if not all of their income purchasing food, clothing, etc. With a sales tax, nearly every dollar they spend is taxed. And, at 7.75%, NC has one of the highest sales taxes in the country.
Unlike you and I, low income families do not spend money on services, which are not taxed. By the time they have purchased food, clothing, etc. there is little money left over to buy tax-free services.
With a very high sales tax, and a very low property tax, the only tax increase that makes sense is a modest increase in property tax.
Interesting, Jeffrey I want you take
Sun, 01/23/2011 - 13:14 — Voice_of_Reason_-If impact fees are illegal, why is Stan Norwalk still talking about them? Couldn't it be in the form of a higher building permit tax for new single and multi-family residential construction?
-Nobody said sales taxes aren't regressive, however it could be offset by a disproportional spending in poorer areas and schools. I know this sounds mean to you, but there is no free lunch.
- Property tax increases may be fine, however they aren't a tax on owned property unless you would tax the banks share and make them pay. It is a fallicy to equate wealth and homes unless you look at the asset value to the individual. In today's market, that asset may be a negative asset to an individual's wealth. While others may own their homes outright. Property tax income is great for planning purposes, since growth is the only real variable. We all will get a huge rate increase in a few years when property is re-assessed (disproportionally on the poor since property values on the low end have not took the hit like the upper income homes)
$100K assessed home now valued at 80K - Tax 1%=$1K/yr new rate 1.5%= $1.2K/yr = 20% increase
$2M assessed home now valued at $1.2M - Tax 1%=$20K/yr new rate 1.5%= $18K/yr = 10% decrease
I used hypothetical rates, but that is reality of property prices for residential unless there is a huge turnaround in the market. [BTW I was being generous on the high end (Google 2409 Victoria Lane in Raleigh BTW- that is not a distressed property and it is a very nice development) if you don't buy what I am saying). That "rich guy" is no longer rich...the county gets their money in full.
Are you still for a property tax increase?
I don't think most Progressive supporters realize the impact on the poor and lower middle class coming down the pike. Higher food costs & higher energy costs alone will break the back of the current welfare state and take the poor down the tubes with it. There isn't enough personal wealth in this country to keep it afloat. Of course, the pain will be felt by all but the uber-rich, with the poor suffering the most. I guess enjoy the free lunch while you can. If I were in this position, I'd be making the best of it and saving what I could for the future. It is a sad thing what has been done through social-engineering by the Progressives on both sides of the aisle.
BTW- I am more of a realist or a conservative rather than a neocon.
In order for impact fees to
Sun, 01/23/2011 - 19:01 — CaryCurmudgeonIn order for impact fees to be immune from legal challenge, we need the state legislature to grant counties the authority to levy education impact fees (ain't Dillon's law great), and they really should happen at a county level. Given the Dems controlled both the legislature and county commission and we couldn't get impact fees done, I don't hold out much hope under the Republicans.
Are you still for a property
Sun, 01/23/2011 - 14:55 — jeffrey1Are you still for a property tax increase?
Yes. You seem to believe that there is no relationship between wealth and homeownership, but you could not be more wrong. The value of the home or homes you purchase are largely correlated with your ability to pay the principal, interest, taxes, and insurance on those homes. Lenders generally do a pretty good job in assessing your ability to pay when you apply for a loan. In recent years, lenders relaxed their standards a bit, but I don't buy the argument that those who took out loans were the victims.
The fact is that you chose to buy two properties, and you fully understood that you would need to pay the taxes on those properties. You knew the tax rate, and you knew that homes would be reassessed every eight years in Wake County. Furthermore, you knew that the actual assessed value of your property was largely irrelevant in that tax rates are set based on a "revenue neutral" policy whenever there is a reassessment. Both Stan Norwalk and I have explained that to you numerous times in a prior thread on this blog.
Your constant complaining about your high property taxes fly in the face of the fact that Wake County enjoys some of the lowest property tax rates in the country for an area that is growing as much as we are. Frankly, it sounds like you did not adequately assess your risk when buying a 2nd property. Perhaps you bought into the hype that property values never decline. Perhaps you did not correctly assess your cash flow when buying a rental property. Whatever the case, I don't think you have a legitimate complaint about property taxes here in Wake County.
Higher food costs & higher energy costs alone will break the back of the current welfare state and take the poor down the tubes with it.
There is little doubt that inflation is somewhere out there on the horizon. This country has managed to survive double digit annual inflation rates during the 1974-75 recession, and again from 1979-1981. In this decade alone we have seen gasoline prices go from $1.65 to nearly $4.00 per gallon. America (including the poor) have managed to survive during these inflationary periods and they will survive them in the future.
Jeffrey - I think you are mistaking something
Sun, 01/23/2011 - 22:24 — Voice_of_Reason_This is not about me. I bought a second house at half price (based on tax assessment)and got a great rate, my loss on the first will more than be made up by the second. I can manage and invest my money, thank you. I don't really care if you raise my rates. If you raise them too much, I'll just pull stakes and move on, no problem. My business is outside the state, I don't have ties here. But I am talking on behalf of a lot of people in the mid to upper middle class that are suffering because of the economy. The expression, "...the harder they fall...." applies here. There are many people that invest a large portion of their income in housing. There are a lot of people having trouble right now just meeting the mortgage, never mind extra property taxes. A lot were stuck with variable rate mortgages and could not refinance at a fixed rate because their home values dropped so much, so quick. They are OK right now, but are in utter fear of an interest rate hike. Others are seeing small business revenues down and are dipping into savings to pay their mortgages. I am sure a lot of you out there are happy that they are having trouble, I'm not sure why except envy. They pay the lions share of property taxes, provide jobs, and pay into the federal "milk cow". Instead of thanking these people you repay them with tax hikes, lets kick them while their down. You need to remember very few of these are stereotypical rich, they have families just like most of us. Most fall well under the magic $250K/yr that Obama uses. They are worried. But I guess from your posts you could care less, but you expect them to care for you. Amazing. Go ahead raise property taxes in this recession and see what happens. But warning, the poor will suffer in the end.
On your last point:
I've lived through all those periods you just talked about, there is something different here, the county is almost bankrupt and we are printing money like we have never done before. I am not talking about normal inflation, I am talking about hyper-inflation, 15% would be nice. Add to that entitlements with automatic inflation protection linked to the CPI, we are on a jet plane to economic disaster. I hope I am wrong, if Washington pulls this out, it will be worthy of Houdini. If oil prices ever get decoupled from the dollar, watch out, our money will be worthless, only the uber rich will be comfortable.
But I guess from your posts
Mon, 01/24/2011 - 02:12 — jeffrey1But I guess from your posts you could care less, but you expect them to care for you. Amazing.
No, what's amazing is that apparently you are a mind reader, and can tell me what I care and do not care about. You are the one who has been ranting and raving about YOUR property taxes in dozens of different posts on the Wake Ed blog. They are unfair. They should be taxing the banks. They are taxing something that is not yours. Etc, etc, etc.
If you want to speak on behalf of the people who got in over their heads because they bought too much house, took out ARMs with incredibly low teaser rates, or believed they could continue to refinance their debt as their homes grew more and more, go ahead. But you will get little support from your conservative friends. Those people acted irresponsibly and now it is you and I who are bailing them out. It's interesting that your sympathy for these people is a liberal point of view, while my lack of sympathy for them is more of a conservative point of view.
In any case, property taxes should be the least of their concerns. And you certainly cannot make the case that they somehow deserve a break on their property taxes because home values have decreased. For the thousandth time, property taxes are set so that the government can expect a certain amount of revenue - they have nothing to do with property values.
And, if there is anything that is more or less predictable with financing a home with a variable rate mortgage, it is property taxes.
I am not talking about normal inflation, I am talking about hyper-inflation, 15% would be nice.
You talk of gloom and doom is just that - gloom and doom, and again is more consistent with a liberal point of view. I will just point out that the debt, as s percentage of GDP, peaked in 1946 at 121%. Today it's hovering around 80%. Things are by no means rosy, but if Warren Buffet (and thousands of other economists) is not overly concerned, neither am I.
So I have a liberal Point of View Jeffrey?
Mon, 01/24/2011 - 08:44 — Voice_of_Reason_I see you seem as Liberals have a lock on compasion, what a joke. And you seem to twist my words at will. I never said give the rich a tax break. I said it was unwise to raise property taxes right now during a recession of this magnitude. I don't disagree with why property taxes are used because they are recession proof; I do still think they are not a tax on wealth like some on you side claim, if so we should look at stock portfolios as property and tax them too. I never said tax the banks either, I did say they actually own the more of the property in most cases, not the property owner.
"property taxes are set so that the government can expect a certain amount of revenue - they have nothing to do with property values" - Property values on a county wide level, not at the personal level. And the government is getting the money they planned for, they want more.
And your premise that people took out ARMs mortgage were foolish shows a lack of understanding of a transient workforce. A lot of people only expect to be in a location or home for 4-5 years, not everyone plans to stay in their home longterm (especially upward mobile people). It may be their job, or the fact they planned to upgrade in the future. It actually made good financial sense to get an ARM with those teaser rates, when interest rates started to rise they would get a fixed. Nobody saw the sudden drop in property values like we have seen in Raleigh, it caught almost everyone by surprise. Raleigh's housing price inflation was nowhere near the rest of the country's, yet we were hit bad. Nobody is asking for a break on property taxes, just don't raise them now.
As far as gloom and doom, I hope you are right. But Iwould be very careful about listening to Billionaires, they invest heavily in commodities, hedge funds, and gold. They look forward to recessions so they can buy up more at the low prices. George Soros, the liberal's idol, has made Billions of dollars during this recession. Most people, except the very wealthy, don't invest this way. These are the people that really pull the strings, they love it when the upper middle class are lumped with them, it provides cover. (you know, share the hate)
BTW-
"while my (Jeffrey's) lack of sympathy for them is more of a conservative point of view"
That statement says plenty about you and your beliefs, I guess I can read minds. ""
On Compasion: My view of liberal compasion is like a child that is given everything by their parents and never expect any chores done. When they fail, let them move in. A conservative provides for their child but expects them to pull their weight as they get older to teach them responsibility and self-repect. If they try hard and fail later, help them get back on his feet.
Please don't question my
Mon, 01/24/2011 - 23:32 — jeffrey1Please don't question my compassion for people that truly need compassion.
And your premise that people took out ARMs mortgage were foolish shows a lack of understanding of a transient workforce. A lot of people only expect to be in a location or home for 4-5 years, not everyone plans to stay in their home longterm (especially upward mobile people).
If you go back and look and what led to the housing bubble, you will find:
1. People foolishly believed that house prices would continue to rise at unsustainable rates forever.
2. People bought more house than they could afford, under the assumption that that they could continue to take out equity in a home that would always rise in value.
3. While ARMs are appropriate for some people, their use has skyrocketed in recent years. Most people don't consider the risk involved. For many people, all they have ever known over the past 20 years is falling interest rates. The typical 30 year mortgage rate was around 11% in 1990, and for the most part, has been falling ever since. Most ARMs allow for a rise in the interest rate of up to 2% per year with a lifetime cap usually around 6%. People don't understand the effect that a 2-6% rise in interest rates can have on their payments.
4. People began to use ARM's as a way to refinance their debt. Get a low teaser rate, take out equity in your home, and pay off some bills. A few laters, when the bills returned, take out some more equity in your home by refinancing with a new ARM, another low teaser rate, and pay off the bills. Rinse and Repeat. This is what got us into trouble, and these are the people that I don't have any compassion for.
Jeffrey, If it would make you happy
Tue, 01/25/2011 - 08:19 — Voice_of_Reason_I am angry at the people that used arms like you described. These are not the people I am talking about. That problem really has not hit us yet, when interest rates rise watch the carnage. Only the irresponsible teaser rate people that thought like that have been hit so far for the most part. People that did as you described took a big gamble and lost, unfortunately we are all paying for that now. Especially in states like California where people can just deed their home to the bank with no penalty except a bad credit score for a while. In fact, financial planners there were encouraging it as a way to make money. Banks holding 2nd mortgages are lucky to get anything in even a short sale these days. They have no legal claim if the person declares bankrupcy unless they pay the first mortgage and buy the home for sale later. Again who pays in the long run, not us, our children. I don't think people should live outside their means, it is a recipe for their financial disaster. Anyone that borrowed on the assumption their house was going up in value should be personally responsible for their debt. And banks that gave loans like that, I don't have any compassion for either. That combined with a spike in oil futures (did we ever figure out the investors that did that?) lighting the fire of the recession we are in.
It is not those people that I have a lot of compasion for, they made their bed by overextending on purpose, gambling on the rise in property value. I am only sorry for their children. I don't have a lot of compasion for people that don't take advantage of opportunities when they are handed to them either.
But I do question your compasion because you lump those that didn't make those bad decisions. You are just as guilty as any racist that judges a whole race on a few people, it is the same thought pattern.
As I pointed out, raising property taxes might stick it to the people in the expensive homes now, but when housing is re-assessed (unless real estate skyrockets before) the lower income homes will take the brunt of it. That is taking in account your revenue neutral concept you thought I had no idea about. So you are kicking in the teeth both sides of the income spectrums and also hurting property values for all of us.
The only way to avoid the problem, is to do an early reassessment and raise the rates now. The lower income homes are going to get it otherwise. but who am I ?, just a stupid conservative that doesn't care about anyone.
But I do question your
Wed, 01/26/2011 - 05:03 — jeffrey1But I do question your compasion because you lump those that didn't make those bad decisions. You are just as guilty as any racist that judges a whole race on a few people, it is the same thought pattern.
I don't follow how suggesting that we need a modest property tax increase shows a lack of compassion towards some people. If that were the case, then you would have to agree that a small sales tax increase (that you suggested) also shows a lack of compassion because it is a regressive tax on the poor. In fact, it shows even less compassion because many poor people do not own property, while every poor person buys food and clothing subjecting them to the increased sales tax.
The lower income homes are going to get it otherwise
I disagree that the homes of lower income people will be disproportioally affected. Look, the median home value in Wake County TODAY is $192,100, down about 13% from peak. The median home value in Wake County TODAY is the SAME as it was August, 2005, a little more than 5 years ago.
Homes across all price ranges have been more or less equally affected. The following is the peak and current valuations of different types of homes in Wake County:
As you can see, lower valued homes have not been affected any differently than higher valued homes.
but who am I ?, just a stupid conservative that doesn't care about anyone.
Self Pity is rarely the answer.
Where did you get your data? - Jeffrey
Wed, 01/26/2011 - 11:07 — Voice_of_Reason_I'll sell you my old house at 20% below tax value , it's an instant $40K in your pocket according to your calculations.
That's my list price and it's been on the market a year. 17% below what I paid (19% if you include improvements), I bought it at the beginning of 2005. And Perfect condition. There are much better deals. I wonder about your data. Is that for new homes?
Where are you getting your data? And there is very limited data on resales in the high end because there are so few sales since 2008.
Anyway Jeffrey we will see after the next tax assessment, I expect a nice decrease in my taxes even if the rate goes up 50%.
BTW- I just did a random (albeit non-scientific) search at sold homes in 2010 valued $1M+ that were over three years old. The sold price vs. tax assessment doesn't even come close to supporting your claim. I am trying to get more data from a Realtor and I will get back to you.
Why is the proposed solution
Fri, 01/21/2011 - 12:56 — woodstockWhy is the proposed solution always more taxes? The truth is that if that is the only way and re-prioritizing is never the answer, at some point down the road there will no more to take.
Woodstock, I will explain
Fri, 01/21/2011 - 13:31 — Voice_of_Reason_First off, money does need to come from somewhere. The sales tax is fair because everyone pays. And this tax was a tax that the people agreed to knowing where the money was spent, it had an end date, it's purpose was specified, and it was overseen by bussiness people, not politicians. Please read, about the MAPS program on the link I provided and the follow on one for schools. Here's the link :
http://www.okc.gov/ocmaps/index.html
And they just started and taxpayers approved a new one:
http://www.okc.gov/maps3/
Billions of dollars in additional investments, and many jobs followed.
Name me one tax you know that people liked and wanted more? NC Law would have to be changed, and that might be easier with the new Republican control.
AMAZING THINGS CAN HAPPEN WHEN PEOPLE WORK TOGETHER WITHOUT POLITICS!
In this case there was investing, not taking; and the return on the investment was quick and very visible..for a long time to come.
EVERYONE INVESTED AND EVERYONE BENEFITED, RICH AND POOR
What the hell? Any tax that
Sat, 01/22/2011 - 02:38 — woodstockWhat the hell? Any tax that requires that much explanation is a tax I have no interest in. I do not want to pay one single penny more in taxes. Until we get spending under control, respect the limited role of government our founders defined, prioritize in a meaningful way, and eliminate the waste, I do not want anyone asking for more of my money. Period.