Are there no bad schools in Raleigh?
That's the provocative message from Gerald Grant in his new book "Hope and Despair in the American City: Why there are no bad schools in Raleigh." As noted in today's article, Grant is in Raleigh to talk about his book at 7:30 p.m. at Quail Ridge Books & Music.
Grant believes that other school districts should emulate Wake's socioeconomic diversity policy. He calls Wake one of the few urban school systems that has made good on the democratic bargain of providing equal educational opportunities for all.
“Instead of turning its back on the basic promise of equal educational opportunity that America made to its poor and minority children, Raleigh embraced it," Grant writes. "The rest of America defaults on that promise at its peril.”
A big chunk of his evidence is on Wake's test scores. The state's renorming of the exams has taken off some of the luster for Wake.
Grant says there are many benefits from having economically integrated classrooms. For instance, he said it helps poor students by establishing positive expectations and creating social networks.
“But many other things will change for these poor children in a school that is fairly balanced across lines of socioeconomic class, like those in Wake County," Grant writes.
The norms of behavior, the language spoken, and the expectations of teachers will be vastly different. Gangs will not run the schools. The learning curve will be higher. Students and teachers will no longer have to confront a culture that ridicules traditional school achievement. Sloppy and vulgar language are less likely to be tolerated. The vocabularies of poor children will grow as they interact with advantaged classmates. More will learn to read sooner."
Grant acknowledges the examples that critics point to of successful high-poverty schools such as the KIPP schools. But he says students who attend those schools are not the norm for poor families.
Grant argues that no school district has been able to implement on a systemwide basis the kind of model used at KIPP. In contrast, he said Wake has changed the norms in all students attended by poor students
Grant also takes on the critics, arguing they're a vocal minority in Wake who get headlines but can't get a majority to back them.
"The overwhelming majority of Wake parents were convinced that busing was worth it," Grant writes. "Despite challenges from those who favor a neighborhood school policy, for more than three decades Wake citizens elected a school board majority that supported balanced schools."
Comments
I think it is more of an
Fri, 05/22/2009 - 20:59 — momiamI think it is more of an indication of embracing diversity if you move to an area with diverse families from different cultures then if you have some children from different backgrounds bussed to your school. You can't make people interact. We live in a diverse area and my children have a diverse group[ of friends. They are friends that they play with after school- not ones that are bussed in then leave.
Also- I don't think that low finances should equate to bad grades where the schools are equally funded. I have close friends who moved to this country with NOTHING (one friend sold clothing boots everything just to get plane tickets here and lived with a host family for a year) and did not even speak the langauge well and did not make a lot of money but stressed in their children the importance of a good education in the FREE schools. They made sure their children studied and used the FREE library at school and guess what? Not only did their children excel but the parents made their own lives better by not having a victim mentality and by teaching their children not to have a victim mentality.
Right there with you
Fri, 05/22/2009 - 21:46 — Falcwhich is one of the main issues I have with the current magnet school program. The nonlottery application lottery rewards those who live in undiverse areas and dings those who chose to live in diverse areas.
I'd love a percentage count of how many people in this country are like your friends or descendants of people just like your friends. I know a lot of people who would fall in that category.
You are correct about the victim mentality -- those that become victims of the victim mentality are not the ones that get ahead in life.
NWRaleighMom and Comments regarding my children
Fri, 05/22/2009 - 16:01 — MelanieDuPonHarrellHi there NWRaleigh Mom and readers, I just wanted to let you know that my children attend Conn Elementary School. It is a school they love, and they are magnet students. We applied to Conn via the magnet lottery when my now 10 year old was 4, and my husband at that time was not running for election, nor was he elected. As an elected official, my husband is elected to serve the people, and not self-serve. We believe in service, as a family, and we are raising our children to hold high the value that no one is better than the other, and that every child is a child of God. Thanks.
Awe, Mudge....
Thu, 05/21/2009 - 23:16 — RiversideRealistYou're not REALLY thinking there's anything to read into there, are you?? ;)
SchoolABC
Fri, 05/22/2009 - 12:47 — user1234I split the HSs into two groups based on F&R% - top and bottm half. All the schools except Garner and Milbrook are above the State F&R passing average of 52%
Rec - Recognition
H Honor School of Excellence
D School of Distinction
P School of Progress
N No Recognition
I hear people say how badly F&R kids do when sent to wealthy low diversity school but when I look at the data it appears to say the opposite that F&R kids have the highest EOC% pass rate at schools where they are a minority and the lower pass rate as their % increases. It appears Panther Creek and Green Hope do what KIPP does within the regular school and probably cheaper. Also, it appears the lower your income diversity, the higher the recognition. I appears, if a school wants recognition, it needs to keep the %F&R under 20%. Keeping F&R% under 10% gives you the highest status. I left off Enloe, SE and Broughton since they are magnets and are unlike the other HSs.
Finally, notice that the schools at the bottom of the list are the older original schools while the top of the list are mostly the newer schools with new facilities, teachers, etc.
Well
Sun, 05/24/2009 - 12:40 — Bob_SconceDid you really mean "NED Pass" or "ED Pass"?
Since F&R students, on average, do worse than non-F&R students, it's no surprise that schools with a lot of F&R students would have worse overall performance than schools with few F&R students.
I don't think you have enough schools there to really draw conclusions -- compare, for example, Cary and Apex. Cary has 3x the number of F&R students, yet appears to perform better. Or Millbrook and Leesvile -- Millbrook has twice the percentage, yet appears to score about the same.
SchoolABC Perf
Sun, 05/24/2009 - 16:39 — user1234Here is another subtle difference. The "top" schools typically have more teachers with advnced degrees and fewer new teachers. If more than 20% of the teacher have been there less than 3 years, you are more likely to be a high ED school. I am guessing it must be discouraging to work in a high ED school and not get any recognition year after year so those schools end up getting fresh faces all the time and the veterns get to advance to low ED schools where they can teach more advanced course to easier kids and get recognized professionally and financially.
If I see one thing I would fix, it would be to reward teachers on % YTY change over meeting a minimum bar. Moving Garner over 64% composite would take alot of work. The Panther Creek kids could watch movies with subs all year and still score above average.
With the limited amout of
Sun, 05/24/2009 - 15:04 — user1234With the limited amout of public data you and I have, it is hard to make a percise conclusion. You are right I typed NED but meant ED.
Take Cary vs. Apex. You are right Cary does better with ED (68%) compared to Apex (60%). So here are two school, side by side literally only 5 miles apart I think, and you can see there is a vast difference in the number of ED assigned. But more important is to look at the order. Cary is an anomoly and much higher than Middle Creek or Athens on either side of it which mean they are doing something right. Looking at Panther Creek and Apex, it appears that ED in <10% school at nearly 70% pass are really kicking these tests and don't seem to be hurt (score-wise) going to these low ED schools like people often say. If you were an ED parent, you would want to pick a low ED school so your child to pass the EOCs.
Once a school goes above 30% ED only half the kids will pass and the school is unlikely ever to be recognized (e.g. no progress).
Finally, it always appeared to me that there is a "rule of 70" where many times the F&R%+EDPass% = 70 with 70% the best you can do (e.g. Panther Creek) and 50% ED pass when you group them all together.
A couple things to
Fri, 05/22/2009 - 19:46 — klanders65A couple things to remember... it is those magnet schools you left off where the low income kids lack access to the wonderful resources. Also, at high schools, kids don't sign up for free lunch like they do at the elem and middle. They just aren't interested in it. So the %s at the HS level usually don't accurately reflect the number of low income kids.
http://www.washingtonpost.com
Thu, 05/21/2009 - 20:06 — aspienathttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/20/AR2009052003761.html
Hey a working program to benchmark
Thu, 05/21/2009 - 21:44 — Voice_of_Reason_Maybe this would be a better program than Math Coaches for Elementary School Teachers (Hey teachers, I am laughing at this... If I were you, I be insulted). How about it Dr. Del, BoE; could we use a program like this in Title I schools and make a difference?
For some reason, I don't think it will make the light of day. But if I'm wrong, I would be happy.
Math coaches, Literacy
Thu, 05/21/2009 - 21:50 — dryeraseuserMath coaches, Literacy coaches...all the same...the teachers that can't cut it in the classroom leave and die to get one of these positions. A wasted amount of money if you ask me.
is anyone going tonite?
Thu, 05/21/2009 - 11:55 — loriacIs anyone going tonight to ask him some of these questions? I'd hate for the media to be there, and not have a 'balanced' crowd.
When I talk to folks here with older kids - to a person, they say they counted the days until they could be free of WCPSS. The word is out on the city-search blogs (people looking to move to Raleigh) - all is not well for WCPSS.
If someone posted this
Thu, 05/21/2009 - 18:15 — dryeraseuserIf someone posted this already...sorry for the repeat, since I haven't taken the time to read everything. However, since I saw that Grant had grandchildren that attend Ligon, I decided to text a friend that teaches there. If I am wrong, I appoligize now, ..I asked my friend about this and they told me that if is truely the same person, Grant (the author) has a son that is an administrator in WCPSS...HOW funny is that?
His son is an administrator
Thu, 05/21/2009 - 22:33 — KeungHui (author)His son is an administrator in Wake who was at tonight's book signing.
Isn't that special? Maybe
Thu, 05/21/2009 - 22:48 — CaryCurmudgeonIsn't that special? Maybe that also helps explain how his kids lucked out getting into magnet schools.
No kidding!
Fri, 05/22/2009 - 09:37 — g88ky07No kidding!
No bad schools
Thu, 05/21/2009 - 11:45 — FalcHow does the author define "bad" vs. "not bad"?
For example, there are a lot of schools here not meeting AYP compared to some other counties in NC. Also, the high passing rates he cites were from when a student only had to get 25% of the questions right.
I'd like to see a book written by the grandparent of kids in a "rim" school or other non-magnet schools whose grandkids cannot get into magnets because their base school (which does not get the same resources as a magnet and cannot offer the same programs) is naturally diverse, or the grandparent of low-income kids who are/will be bussed 18 miles from home and forced into MYR to balance out a new school in a nondiverse area. Why is it always the ones who reap the benefits of the status quo system, but are not impacted by the personal costs, that come out with supporting PR propaganda?
The only book I see from the school system comparative information below is, "whatever Durham is doing - don't do it." Sorry, but I don't see that the story is do what Wake is doing. To me, it is not a standout unless you want to talk about NED scores, but then one needs to factor in the educational demographics of the parents here (comparative high percentage of parents with advanced degrees) and the fact that Wake has the highest median income around. I'll give User1234 that when it comes to Ed spending Wake is low, but it will be hard to convince people to pay more for just more of the same inequities, instability and waste. Again, it is not just how much you spend, but how, where and on what it is spent. I'm still waiting to personally meet a person who loves the school system here.
http://www.wcpss.net/test-scores/ayp/2008/
Wake County Schools (24.3%) made Adequate Yearly Progress, percentage of students who are ED 28.2%, percent of ED students passing both reading and math 31.3%, median income in county $62K
Charlotte/Mecklenberg (22.8%) made AYP, percentage of students who are ED 42.5%, percent of ED students passing both reading and math 31.1%, median income in county $56K
Cumberland County Schools (34.1%) made Adequate Yearly Progress, percentage of students who are ED 51.8%, percent of ED students passing both reading and math 33.4%, median income in county $42K
Chapel Hill/Carrboro Schools (58.8%) made Adequate Yearly Progress, percentage of students who are ED 19%, percent of ED students passing both reading and math 33.9%, median income in city $51K
Durham Public Schools (17.4%) made Adequate Yearly Progress, percentage of students who are ED 39.2%, percent of ED students passing both reading and math 20.8%, median income in county $47K
Johnston County Schools (50%) made Adequate Yearly Progress, percent of ED students passing both reading and math 37.3%, percentage of students who are ED 37.0%, median income in county $45K
Orange County Schools (33.3%) made Adequate Yearly Progress, percentage of students who are ED 31.3%, percent of ED students passing both reading and math 32.4%, median income in county $55K
New Hanover County Schools (28.9%) made Adequate Yearly Progress, percentage of students who are ED 39.2%, percent of ED students passing both reading and math 34.2%, median income in county $48K
No failing schools
Thu, 05/21/2009 - 10:52 — Bob_SconceBut plenty of failing students.
Of *course* the diversity policy means that test scores at schools are all fair-to-middling. F&R students do poorly on EOGs, non-F&R students do well. As long as there are more non-F&R students than F&R students, you can move them around so that each school has more non-F&R students than F&R students. And, that means that EOG scores for any individual school won't be great, but they won't be horrible either.
But, that policy doesn't help ANYBODY -- it's just re-arranging where the failing students are.
This idea of "social networks," and "positive expectations" is garbage. If that stuff existed and had positive benefits, then we would expect to see Wake's F&R kids do better at schools with low-F&R percentages. But, they don't. If anything, they do better at schools with *high* F&R numbers.
This is just ivory-tower educational theory unsupported by actual experience in Wake County (despite his resume).
Just more propaganda
Thu, 05/21/2009 - 09:40 — g88ky07self gratification toilet reading material for someone other than the parents who are actually dealing with the hidden secrets of a public school system gone rogue!
No Bad Schools
Thu, 05/21/2009 - 09:33 — designmanMaybe the Wake County School Board can adopt "No Bad Schools" as their tag line. It is as tepid as their approach to closing the achievement gap with low-income students in the county. It is obvious that the current school board, and its ringleader, Rosa Gill, has no interest in finding solutions. Their answer for decades has been to bus kids near and – mostly – far to disperse the low achieving students, who are disproportionately from low-income families, across the county so that we have statistically “healthy” schools. How the public has been fooled by this shell game for this long is a mystery. Perhaps it was because they expected competence and truthfulness from their elected officials. Finally, it seems, the public has had enough and now see through the charade.
Carolina Home Companion
Thu, 05/21/2009 - 10:02 — CaryCurmudgeonWake County... Where the men are fair, the women are strong and all the schools are above average.
Funny Mudge!
Thu, 05/21/2009 - 10:41 — rr77rr99Funny Mudge!
Wow I guess this guy has not
Thu, 05/21/2009 - 08:34 — aspienatWow I guess this guy has not gone to Dillard, Carnage, Martin, Moore Square or any school in Wcpss that doesn't fit his pretty picture. Again all platitudes no proof.
To complicated to get it right
Thu, 05/21/2009 - 09:41 — designmanWhen you have a book to write, you don't want a lot of messy details to muck up your preconceived premise.
He's been to several
Thu, 05/21/2009 - 08:41 — KeungHui (author)He's been to several schools in Wake for his research. His grandsons are magnet students at Washington Elementary and Ligon Middle. He taught at Broughton High. His book references visits to other schools such as Bugg Elementary and North Ridge Elementary.
[His grandsons are magnet
Thu, 05/21/2009 - 10:10 — NWRaleighMom[His grandsons are magnet students at Washington Elementary and Ligon Middle. ]
Why is the most outspoken supporters of Wake diversity policy happen to have their children in magnets or in non-diverse schools in other districts?
“Why are the most
Thu, 05/21/2009 - 10:50 — user1234“Why are the most outspoken supporters of Wake diversity policy happen to have their children in magnets or in non-diverse schools in other districts?”
Why is it that the anti-diversity supporters live in areas with little diversity on the edges of the county?
Is it any wonder that people who value education will seek out opportunities like magnet schools for their children?
Just because someone does not support
Thu, 05/21/2009 - 13:17 — FalcWCPSS' one-trick pony assignment policy, which has been repackaged as "diversity" (give me a break) that is based on the stereotype that low-income students make schools "unhealthy" and the directive that low-achieving students should be reassigned to create "healthy" schools, and the discriminatory magnet program does not make the person anti-diversity in the true sense of the concept of diversity.
User1234, don't YOU LIVE IN CARY?
Thu, 05/21/2009 - 11:26 — Voice_of_Reason_Why don't you live in a poor area in the inner city? The fact that you live in Cary makes you an elitist, doesn't it? (according to your warped view). It's always easy to preach down when you don't live or ever lived what you preach.
I am sure valuing education is not what Mudge was talking about, I think he was pointing out unusual % of access to magnet schools by some people, and that was anecdotal for the most part...or is it?
Diversity, well let's see, I have an Indian family next door, a Palestinian across the street, a black family three doors down, a Chinese family five doors down, a Brit, a Dane, and a Japanese family all on my street, and oh yeah a New Yorker as my other next door neighbor. I can walk to relatively low income apartments. But yes, I do live in the outskirts of Raleigh in a upper middle class neighborhood. You know what, I don't give a flip what color a person's skin is, if they talk with an accent, what religion they are, or how much money they have. I do care they behave (i.e. Do they respect other people's property, enjoyment of their property, and liberty.)
If diversity in your mind is different from this, quite frankly I don't want it. If I wanted my kids to have 'gang or gangsta' diversity, I'd live in those areas. Heck, why would I ever bothered working hard, when I could get a free ride from the government to live there? That doesn't mean I wash my hands of the problem or care to fix it.
WELL SAID!, there Voice of
Thu, 05/21/2009 - 17:58 — dryeraseuserWELL SAID!, there Voice of REason!!! My thoughts exactly...especially about the part of you just care about how people act and the respect they give to others around them.
“Why don't you live in a
Thu, 05/21/2009 - 12:33 — user1234“Why don't you live in a poor area in the inner city?”
Since the “good” schools are where the wealthy people live, you can only in certain places and get a quality education for you kids. That is what you don’t seem to understand ever is that you life in a wealthy area with “good” schools. There are a lot of people who don’t want to live on the edge the county to get a “good” school. I would love to live in town if all the schools were equivalent but they are not. Best case, you form a fortress like Lacy and enjoy both in town convenience and good schools.
One day it will dawn on you that having “good” school across the entire county allows people to live every where and they don’t have waste time migrating from node to node.
There are several good
Fri, 05/22/2009 - 09:50 — jenmanThere are several good schools ITB (north/west Raleigh) that I would be thrilled to have my kids attend. Joyner, Underwood, Wiley, Root, Lacy, Olds, Combs for elementary. Until the recent de-mag of Daniels, EVERY kid living in north/west ITB attended a magnet middle school as their base. Some still get to attend Martin as a base. I think that all of those areas have been assigned to Broughton as well. Honestly, I can't imagine that you think you had to move out of central Raleigh to get a good school.
As to why people move to the edge of the county, I offer some reasons in addition to the one given already by VOR. When we first moved to Raleigh in 98, we were absolutely priced out of living in a safe neighborhood ITB. Oakwood, Mordecai, Five Points, Anderson Heights, etc. Absolutely could not afford a house down there--not even a small one that needed work. Paying $225+/sq ft is just not affordable for the vast majority of Wake County citizens.
When we realized that we couldn't afford to live in an established older neighborhood, we chose a neo-traditional subdivision in N Raleigh. I thought I would hate living in a new neighborhood, but there are some great things about it. Almost everybody was a newcomer with no friends or family in the area so they were eager to meet people and build friendships. Most were young families like ours so there are tons of kids for mine to play with. Lots of newcomers seek new neighborhoods for that reason alone. When you move to a new place, its nice to not be the only one in the same situation.
Holly Springs is very popular with a lot of the young couples that we know (mid to late 20s) because it is affordable. Many of our friends looking to buy their first homes were priced out of North Raleigh and Cary and ended up moving to HS. They weren't trying to 'escape' bad schools or flocking to some 'golden node'. They were trying to get the most for their money.
You seem so stuck on the stereotype of who you think these people are. I know of a few people who fit your idea of the person migrating from node to node for a certain school, but the vast majority of people aren't doing that.
"You seem so stuck on the
Fri, 05/22/2009 - 10:48 — user1234"You seem so stuck on the stereotype of who you think these people are. I know of a few people who fit your idea of the person migrating from node to node for a certain school, but the vast majority of people aren't doing that. "
You are right ... Iwas just echoing the other bloggers who talk about moving to stay with a school (e.g. Dana Cope) or the mass exodus to private school. You are right , I have not see that either but listening to this crowd I thought it might be happening elsewhere.
I will say that after the election, census and redistricting that ITB may lose some clout and be hammered by the OTB interests and start to degrade like other urban schools.
I'm curious
Fri, 05/22/2009 - 11:54 — FalcDo you happen to know the F&R rate ITB? I know what Raleigh's is on the whole, but am curious about the rate for just the ITB part of Raleigh. Actually, I'd be curious about more detailed demographics about ITB, such as portion of residents with children, etc.
Considering the gentrification ITB over the last 10 years or so, leading to the highest per square foot home values and an increase in residents with higher incomes, I'm struggling a bit with the concept that the ITB schools will "degrade like other urban schools."
User1234 - Are you coming clean? Let's out you a little more
Fri, 05/22/2009 - 11:10 — Voice_of_Reason_You now have admitted being a person that stereotypes, and one can deduce from that you are prejudice.
That being said, why would anyone moving here with money from somewhere else buy a house in a base with a poor school if they had children? You keep talking about established areas as great, but you denigrade those that live outside those areas. SO let's get to a new issue, propaganda and school ratings:
Questions for you to answer:
1. If the goal is equal schools, why does NC post ABC results? Doesn't this promote the behaviour you abhor?
2. Why does Wake county celebrate schools that do great (albeit mostly magnets)? Doesn't that promote that behaviour you abhor?
3. Why does Wake County celebrate their school system's supposed positive results? isn't this promoting the behaviour you abhor on a larger scale? Doesn't that also bring in growth issues?
4. Would you support no information flow for school results and only aggregate county results?
5. Would you support mandating areas where people can live if they chose to move here?
Question back at you VOR
Fri, 05/22/2009 - 12:43 — user1234Do you think my kids who go to a school with a higher F&R% should be penalized by only being offered remedial classes while their friends across the street in a different node enjoy countless advanced courses that boost their GPA and get them entrance into top schools? Do you think parents have to wealthy to get a great public school education? Do you need to live in a certain node if you want to take Calculus or advanced chemistry?
Should smart kids be expected to have to move to certain neighborhoods to make sure they can get challenging advanced courses to get into college? Should we designate certain neighborhoods for smart kids so they can go to school with the best teachers and most offers?
Do you think the best and most experienced teachers should be able to migrate to low F&R% school which gives them more mental and career challenges than teaching remedial classes all day? Should the most challenging jobs of delivering remedial education always be put on first year teachers because more senior teachers have moved on to “good” schools or only teach advanced courses?
Should we allow a system of “good” and “bad” schools? Should WCPSS move to correct school disparity caused by poor administration, inexperienced teachers, high concentration of high needs kids without adequate resources or should we encourage parent to migrate until everyone is living on top of each other in a single high performance node?
Replies
Fri, 05/22/2009 - 14:09 — Voice_of_Reason_Do you think my kids who go to a school with a higher F&R% should be penalized by only being offered remedial classes while their friends across the street in a different node enjoy countless advanced courses that boost their GPA and get them entrance into top schools? No I don't, but that be handled in distant learning centers in HS's in cases where there is a need ut the numbers do not support.
Do you think parents have to wealthy to get a great public school education? Do you need to live in a certain node if you want to take Calculus or advanced chemistry?
No, same solution as above.
Should smart kids be expected to have to move to certain neighborhoods to make sure they can get challenging advanced courses to get into college? Should we designate certain neighborhoods for smart kids so they can go to school with the best teachers and most offers?
No of course not.
Do you think the best and most experienced teachers should be able to migrate to low F&R% school which gives them more mental and career challenges than teaching remedial classes all day?
Not sure this is an issue, but yes if they wish and there is a need. I thing WCPSS should manage hiring and placement better.
Should the most challenging jobs of delivering remedial education always be put on first year teachers because more senior teachers have moved on to “good” schools or only teach advanced courses?
No, again this is a failure of WCPSS hiring practices.
Should we allow a system of “good” and “bad” schools?
- Yes as long as you define good and bad as grades of the students. And as long as the same core material is taught.
Should WCPSS move to correct school disparity caused by poor administration, inexperienced teachers, high concentration of high needs kids without adequate resources or should we encourage parent to migrate until everyone is living on top of each other in a single high performance node?
Yes and no. Poor administration should be dealt with everywhere. And experience of teachers should be balanced if possible. The rest is a question of liberty and community schools. I don't really think everyone would jump to one area.
USER1234 - You do not make your point
Everything you just asked is not addressed anywhere, especially not in the economic diversity policy. The solution lies in changing the school board and WCPSS administration and get new ideas.
Questions for you to
Fri, 05/22/2009 - 12:22 — user1234“1. If the goal is equal schools, why does NC post ABC results? Doesn't this promote the behavior you abhor? “
Personally, I think all the measuring for schools is due to the 2000’s metrics driven mentality to measure everything … break task down and run everything like a manufacturing plant. I really don’t care if they measure and post. I guess it is good to help settle discussions on if a school needs more attention. If the ABC results are used to find management and resource problems and correct them, I like that but it they only serve to encourage parents to shop around for the best deal, I think it is counterproductive. The way it should work is school A has a few bad years … BOE changes management or adds resources such that school A never “bad” enough to be seen as inferior to school B.
“2. Why does Wake county celebrate schools that do great (albeit mostly magnets)? Doesn't that promote that behavior you abhor? “
No … we should celebrate all successes and accomplishments. We celebrate all our kids successes and accomplishments and they don’t feel slighted when one get an award and the other does not and neither should schools. Now if the deck is stacked and one school that has all the best students, top teachers, etc. is held up over and over for their accomplishments it builds resentment.
“3. Why doesWake County
“4. Would you support no information flow for school results and only aggregate county results? “
Nope … as long as comparative data is not onerous to collect make it public. As the KIPP professor was mentioning that KIPP is not valuable by itself but serves as an agent to get everyone else moving.
“5. Would you support mandating areas where people can live if they chose to move here?”
Nope … people should live where they want. We can direct them to places by providing schools, shopping, water and sewer but ultimately they should live where they want.
I think your confusion with my objectives comes when you hear “equal playing field” and “equivalent resources” you keep thinking communism. A better analogy would be making sure all the players have equipment before they play a football game. To put all the wealth, college bound kids in School A and all the poor, ill prepared kids in school B and tout how school A beats B in every metric is not a fair fight. Only offering advanced courses which attract the best teachers to School A in not fair to the kids in school B who also want to be challenged.
Not everybody user1234
Thu, 05/21/2009 - 13:03 — Voice_of_Reason_Most people that live in the "burbs" do so to get space. They don't like dense populations of people. It not about education. Crime and congestion play a bigger part. Personally, I would rather live in a more rural environment, I like nature... I can't stand big cities except to visit.
I agree with Mudge, I believe you moved to Cary to get your kids away from all the poor kids, now you feel guilty. Blogging is your therapy.
Again you contradict
Thu, 05/21/2009 - 12:45 — CaryCurmudgeonAgain you contradict yourself. You already said that student achievement doesn't matter regardless of which schools you are assigned to (If "achievement" is different than "test scores" I'd love to hear the explanation, and how you measure it). Then you turn around and say you moved near "rich" people so your kids could get a good education.
It sounds more like you moved near "rich" people so your kids wouldn't have to go to school with as many "poor" people.
“It sounds more like you
Thu, 05/21/2009 - 16:40 — user1234Again, remember that the "good" schools have all the advanced classes because they have all the "interest". As Superior Court Judge Howard Manning says "bad" schools are committing "academic genocide." And why would a parent choose that?
I said that it should not
Thu, 05/21/2009 - 14:46 — user1234I said that it should not matter in a PUBLIC school system what school you go to since they all in theory should be equivalent but in real life they are not all the same with wealthier schools with powerful parents getting more resources assigned for their kids. BTW, My kids go to school with 4x the number of poor kids than yours do if you consider F&R to be poor ...
Well, you already said that
Thu, 05/21/2009 - 16:47 — CaryCurmudgeonWell, you already said that is does not matter which public school your kids go to, academic achievement is the same. But you do make an issue out of your kids having to go to school with more poor kids than those who attend Panther Creek. What is it that you resent about those F&R kids?
No problem concerning F&R
Thu, 05/21/2009 - 17:01 — user1234No problem concerning F&R kids ..... it is the disparity that follow them. If you want to major in remedial it is not a problem. But you know that already being at PC.
Again, it does matter which public school you go to which is why people move node to node, lie about their address, and live with relatives but it should NOT matter given a fair and equitable PUBLIC system.
Well, OK, but you're the one
Thu, 05/21/2009 - 22:19 — CaryCurmudgeonWell, OK, but you're the one complaining about having F&R students in "your" school.
Only complaint is getting
Fri, 05/22/2009 - 06:54 — user1234Only complaint is getting ALL of them .... my fair share <40% is ok
...
Thu, 05/21/2009 - 15:04 — SideburnsWhich WCPSS schools are getting more resources assigned due to the actions of powerful parents?
Good for you. Which schools are you comparing?
Which schools are you
Thu, 05/21/2009 - 15:38 — user1234Which schools are you comparing?
Mudge’s school, Panther Creek, a school of distinction, with 42% advanced degree teachers compared to less than 32% for other schools and the highest number of board certified teachers that has 68% ED pass vs. 52% for other schools (Mudge you have great ED performance – point for bussing), and 89% NED pass vs. 83% for other schools with one of the lowest ED% in the county.
I'm an "anti-diversity" supporter
Thu, 05/21/2009 - 10:56 — g88ky07yet I can walk right out my front door and see white people, black people, asian people, spanish people, stupid people, smart people, poor people, rich people and I don't live on the "edge" of the county!
Imagine that!