Charlotte-Mecklenburg Schools may be closer to Wake academically than people think.
As noted in today's article, a new report from Queens University of Charlotte found that Wake's EOG scale scores are only slightly higher than Charlotte's scores. Low-income and academically gifted students in Charlotte are doing as good or better than their Wake peers.
According to the report:
"As demonstrated by End-of-Grade test results, there is no indication that the different approaches to student assignment has made a significant difference in student achievement.
"While the overall average Developmental Scale Scores are slightly higher in Wake County, there is no indication that Wake County outperforms CMS in most individual student subgroups. CMS has grown its students as rapidly as Wake County and in fact the growth of CMS academically gifted students has been faster than Wake County’s."
The report was prompted by the recent N&O/Charlotte Observer article looking at how both districts handle student assignment and education of low-income students.
Cheryl Pulliam, the report's author, said that Wake's scale scores are higher because the district has fewer low-income students than Charlotte. Wake's F&R rate is 28 percent. It's 51 percent in Charlotte.
School board member Eleanor Goettee argued that the report doesn't look at the negative impact of high-poverty schools on school staffing.
It goes into Wake's argument that its diversity policy is keeping schools healthy and keeping teacher turnover down. The turnover rate is higher in Charlotte than Wake.
But for groups like the Wake Schools Community Alliance, the report adds fuel to their criticism of Wake's student assignment policy.
"We must seek other viable, innovative solutions — and they are out there — that incorporate the needs of families, embrace student and community stability, and above all, provide a higher quality education for each child," said Kristen Stocking, leader of WSCA. "We are confident that WCPSS, with the right leadership, can and will make truly groudbreaking strides in education for all children. Again, we can, and must, do better."
Click here to download the report.
Comments
student-assignment-has-little-impact
Sat, 02/28/2009 - 07:55 — AngelaWhttp://news14.com/content/school_news/605594/study--student-assignment-has-little-impact/Default.aspx
FYI
Fri, 02/27/2009 - 16:24 — NCParentThis blog has officially jumped the shark.
brencon--have you checked
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 22:13 — raleighreaderbrencon--have you checked out www.wakecsa.org? We are seeking real solutions to problems in WCPSS. We would love to hear your perspective.
OT I left the meeting half
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 20:46 — vsheehanOT I left the meeting half an
I left the meeting half an hour early. You all were right.It was a Big meeting of you are to dumb to know you are a racist with a dash of you are a racist.The biggest laugh was when a lady stood up and said something that ended with how happy she was to see a diverse crowed.The women wouldn't know diversity if it hit her up side the head. The room was Black and white. That's it. In Raleigh Asian, Hispanic, Lebanese , Russian, Nigerian, (you get my point)does not exist. What a waste of my night.
Opps my neighbors at the door turns out I left the Gate to the neighborhood open (sarcasm) I am pretty sure I was the lowest income personin the room but hey I'manidiot what do I know.
By the way Matt B.(user1234)YOUR A LOONY MORON
and STAN N. is a MORON
Wow .. I moved from moron to
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 22:12 — user1234Wow .. I moved from moron to loony moron over six hours .... so much for your kum-bi-ya moment?
Kudos to Matt B for *coming
Fri, 02/27/2009 - 07:26 — Big_PictureKudos to Matt B for *coming out*. Perhaps we can expect more civil and understanding postings from a *real person*.
He is not real he is an
Fri, 02/27/2009 - 08:16 — vsheehanHe is not real he is an illusion of who he wants to be. That's why he comes across as being MPD in his postings. CC was right about user1234. You do realise that Matt B. is the guy who thinks Cary is going to attack Arabs soon.
Cary would never attack
Fri, 02/27/2009 - 14:20 — CaryCurmudgeonCary would never attack Arabs. We might annex them though.
and put them behind a gated
Fri, 02/27/2009 - 16:58 — vsheehanand put them behind a gated community
A few clarifications for
Fri, 02/27/2009 - 13:51 — user1234A few clarifications for you:
I said "Muslims" not "Arabs" (btw see the encouraging comments from the community concerning their protest). I think it is common mistake. “Arab" is defined independently of religious identity, and pre-dates the rise of Islam.
I think previously when you mentioned girls in “head scarves”; I think you were referring to hajab (meaning to cover, to veil, to shelter).
Hijab, not hajab.
Fri, 02/27/2009 - 17:50 — gwaihirHijab, not hajab.
Hey Moron I AM ARAB so take
Fri, 02/27/2009 - 16:57 — vsheehanHey Moron I AM ARAB so take your bull crap for a walk
What can I saymeeting you
Fri, 02/27/2009 - 05:29 — vsheehanWhat can I say meeting you in person is enough to make a person think that there needs to be more money spent on helping the mentaly ill. Have fun standing up and agreeing with all the racist?
vsheehan, I was at a
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 21:34 — CaryCurmudgeonvsheehan,
I was at a different parents meeting and could not attend, please share details of the meeting if you don't mind.
It was a room of bigots
Fri, 02/27/2009 - 06:35 — vsheehanIt was a room of bigots congratulating themselves.
The part you will love is it's all Cary's fault that there is so much reassignment. If the Town Council would just put up more affordable housing. The Trailer park, Many Many Apartment buildings, and low end town homes don't exists in Cary . I guess my Cary neighborhood must be part of an alternate universe. In this realty Cary is just a bunch of gated communities. I am serious by the way reassignment is being blamed on Cary. Not Raleigh allowing blight to go haywire but Cary's fault.
I guess the speaker wanted more absentee land lords in Cary like the ones in SE. You know the ones who rent at the lowest amount then do not up keep the place till the point the walls are falling in.
The state of Victimhood
Fri, 02/27/2009 - 07:25 — Voice_of_Reason_vsheehan... Isn't it always somebody else's fault? Those down-trodden would never be in the situation if they weren't victims. It always the rich white people or evil local government that causes all the problems. You just don't have enough guilt in you, you should be ashamed of yourself, you closet racist. Come on, I thought you were liberal, you just need a little re-education.
busing topic (also from another blog) What benefits are gained?
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 18:44 — AngelaWBused How Many Miles? At What Personal Cost?
Today, February 26, 2009, 55 minutes ago | (Venita Peyton)
If diversity is the goal for busing thousands of socioeconomically 'deprived' youth in Wake County, why must they travel many miles past other schools where the goals could still be reached?
What has never been challenged, and I hope will be now, is how the original assignments were determined. Below is a snapshot of a few East and Southeast Raleigh 'nodes' and where children are or will be bused during the school year.
The first school listed beside the node number is the elementary school, followed by the middle and high school selections. For other addresses you may determine the school assignments by clicking the Wake County school system assignment calculator.
300 Tarboro Rd, Raleigh Node 79 Leesville, Leesville, Broughton
This node in the Tarboro Road area includes the corner at Oakwood Ave.
1500 Raleigh Blvd, Raleigh Node 75.2 Leesville, Leesville, Leesville
Most of these families live in government-subsidized housing.
300 King Charles Road (near Poole), Raleigh Node 145.0 Wiley, Daniels, Enloe
312 Pettigrew (near Lane St.), Raleigh Node 79.0 Leesville, Leesville, Broughton
500 Dacian Road (off Poole Rd.), Raleigh Node 548 Root, Daniels, Enloe
1800 Proctor, Raleigh Node 058.2, Jeffreys Grove, Centennial, SE Raleigh High
Proctor St. is located off Rock Quarry Rd, opposite Cross Link Rd.
It isn't the reason, but isn't this...
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 20:39 — Voice_of_Reason_CRUEL !
You bring up the most
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 18:33 — BadSnortYou bring up the most important topic- how does busing affect kids and families.
You state that 'work conflicts' mean she can't ride the bus- how exactly would a closer school eliminate those work conflicts- proximity to your work/home/school?
I'm just thinking if you could give the board a specific example about the negative impact that busing your child has on your family when busing is supposedly to help families like yours, it would get some attention- also, I bet you're not the only parent who's in that situation, regardless of income level.
Need to know the agenda/motives
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 16:19 — new876I see a number of references in this post and others requesting support for legislative bills. I support sending kids to the community schools, but I am not sure if I can support these bills based on the following...
-From what I understand one of the bills indicates that if you live within 1.5 miles of a school then your children should go to that school. Why should those families be guranteed a spot at a community school while the rest of us would probably still be bussed?
-In terms of at large elections I am very unsure of this one. I live in a small population area in North Raleigh. With at large elections won't my representation be marginalized in favor of larger population areas such as Cary/Apex/Holly Spring, etc.?
Please be sure that I do not support the current board policies, but at the same time we need to be careful about supporting these bills. I really need to understand the motives behind these before I can support them. That is also true of all of the parent and opposition groups since most of them seem to be focused on larger population areas. Once those areas are taken care of...who will represent the other areas of the county?
Why support at-large
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 21:40 — FalcIn my situation the BoE rep for which I vote represents none of our base schools and I cannot vote for the BoE rep who does represent our base schools. Therefore, my representation is nonexistent.
In a county-wide system, where students can be assigned to any school in the county, it seems it would make sense to have some at-large representatives.
BTW - I also live in a smaller population area. You may be interested to know that according to the WCPSS demographic information, the second largest student population group after "Raleigh" is "Unincorporated." The only way all the "Unincorporated" can vote for the same representive position would be via at-large.
WCSA is a county-wide group.
Well...
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 17:19 — new876Bob,
You mentioned "As-is, though, a small-population area in North Raleigh does not have equal power to the three municipalities in Cary/Apex/H-S, nor should it." I would argue that the current BOE voting system allows some protection for the smaller areas since it is district based. This same issue was also a concern at the start of our country and that is why we have the senate...to provide some protection for the smaller states. In the same sense, the current BOE system gives us some protection.
Please note that I fully agree that we need a change. However, I found it very interesting in the last reassignment process that once some of the larger areas were removed from the plan they could no longer be found to support smaller areas.
Hmm...
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 18:01 — Bob_SconceWell, OK. I'm guessing that you're in the watershed, since there really aren't any small-population areas in North Raleigh outside the watershed. In what ways has Kevin Hill, your current board rep, protected your interest?
In the last election, I personally would have been happier to be able to vote for somebody from Cary with whom I agree than Mr. Hill, who happens to live closer to me, but with whom I disagree.
And, that ties into one of the other problems with district voting: it makes finding qualified candidiates much harder. Cary may have a surplus of good candidates and N. Raleigh may not have any, forcing us N. Raleighites to choose between lousy candidates instead of a more qualified candidate who happens to live in a different part of the county.
Like I said the last time
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 17:03 — vsheehanLike I said the last time you said you feared a Western Wake voting block I fear a NRaleigh Voting Block. But i still hope there areat large seats some day.
Well...
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 17:00 — Bob_Sconce1. The 1.5 mile bill has a number of problems (what happens if you live w/in 1.5 miles of *2* schools?). I would expect this issues to be resolved well before a final vote; right now, it's just a stake-in-the-ground for a pro-community school policy.
2. You are already marginalized. Your vote currently counts for LESS than a vote of somebody who lives, say, off Glenwood ITB, since your board representative has a lot more people in his/her district. Your representation is currently marginalized. With at-large elections, your vote will count the same, AND you'll be able to vote for either all or a majority of the board, an ability that you do not currently have.
The only way Cary/Apex/H-S will be able to dictate the board's direction is if (i) they actually had a majority of the county population (they don't) and (ii) that majority actually agreed on a given direction (they don't and are unlikely ever to.) As-is, though, a small-population area in North Raleigh does not have equal power to the three municipalities in Cary/Apex/H-S, nor should it.
The human cost
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 15:51 — brenconWe can debate all day about the validity of this study, but the fact of the matter is that forced busing is not working, at least not for me. I am a "low income" parent and WCPSS is forcing me to send my daughter to a school 11 miles from my house. Due to work conflicts, she will not be able to take the bus. The cost for sending my "economically disadvantaged" daughter to a better school will be enormous for me to bear. Added costs include; before-school care, after-school care, fuel, and time. Does anyone on the board of WCPSS think about that? How am I supposed to climb out of a financial hole when the very people supposed to be helping me are pushing me in?
Why can't WCPSS pay teachers
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 15:07 — Big_PictureWhy can't WCPSS pay teachers more to teach in a *high F&R school*, pay a signing bonus, pay a retention bonus, put more resources in those schools? That all makes sense to me.
This makes sense to me too.
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 16:19 — Eric_BThis makes sense to me too. Teachers should be paid more for teaching in a high F&R school. The greater challenge should equate to greater pay.
Also, the performance bonuses should be tied to cohort performance. If a class achieves a 40% EOG passing rate for low-income students and the WCPSS average is 31%, that should be considered a heroic achievement and the teacher rewarded appropriately. (Of course, overall targets should also be set for raising the overall district average also.)
The same should be true for non-low-income students. If a class achieves an EOG pass rate of 70% for non low-income students and the WCPSS average is 75%, then the teacher should not be given a bonus.
In this manner, teachers are awarded appropriately based on the challenges of the students they are teaching.
Seems so simple … it
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 17:11 — user1234Seems so simple … it seems like an industrious teacher might request all the low performing kids and when after making a difference pocket a large bonus. That might make the extra work involved in F&R education more attractive.
I agree ... a teacher's
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 16:07 — user1234I agree ... a teacher's chance of making a big difference in a high F&R school is low, they have to work harder and will be blamed for a failing school so we should compensate for that risk.
“Instead of busing
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 13:58 — user1234“Instead of busing students to balance the level of low-income students at each school, Charlotte pours millions of dollars into the high-poverty schools each year to boost the performance of academically disadvantaged students.”
The way I read this is that CMS and Wake performance is similar but Wake spends 6% less which seems like a good value for property owners. So, given similar outcome, diversity assignment in Wake is worth a 6% savings over neighborhood school model used in CMS.
Apples and Oranges
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 14:07 — Bob_SconceCharlotte has twice as many low-income students as Wake. Charlotte also directs additional money toward low-income students. If Charlotte had half as many low-income students, it would have to direct less money to those low-income students. And, as a result, Charlotte's per-pupil spending would drop.
I don't know how much it would drop, but it's at least plausible that it would drop to WCPSS' figures.
But Stan says Wake County
Fri, 02/27/2009 - 12:55 — CaryCurmudgeonBut Stan says Wake County schools are better than CMS, so that must be the case.
I didn't realize
Fri, 02/27/2009 - 14:05 — g88ky07just how narrow minded he might be/IS. I do now!
Lobby for change in the General Assembly
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 13:53 — toebaccoroadTo impact change at WCPSS, one longer term path is to get the State House and State Senate behind a couple of proposed bills to allow taxpayers to send their kids to neighborhood schools & to be able to vote "at-large" BOE members. Everything must pass through the Education Committee, and the head of K-12 is Vernon Malone. Problem is he is old school, and was part of Raleigh's school integration with Wake County and still thinks busing is good for his constituents (i bet they would oppose his position if he asked them). Please lobby the Wake County State House Democrats and State Senate Democrats as the Republicans are supportive of our efforts in the General Assembly. Their contact info is available off of the web. Key is to get some influential Democrats and members of the South Raleigh communities to do some lobbying to.
Do not jump for joy yet, they have a trump card still
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 13:05 — Voice_of_Reason_Remember they haven't pulled the race card yet, I believe it will be pulled nearer to the elections. And I'm sure many facts will be left out, only emotions and pot stirring. Even though the SCOTUS has ruled against racial busing and they claim our busing has nothing to do with it.
Did anyone else catch this
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 12:59 — shearertwDid anyone else catch this line:
"CMS has grown its students as rapidly as Wake County and in fact the growth of CMS academically gifted students has been faster than Wake County’s."
Do you think that could be due to "AG Flight" from WCPSS because that group is so poorly served here? I can not imagine another reason why this group would grow faster in CMS than in Wake.
Is there a universal
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 13:23 — user1234Is there a universal standard for AG? Could CMS have lowered the bar to make more people feel special?
There is a state standard
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 20:33 — Voice_of_Reason_Your comment indicates a lack of knowledge on AG or AIG. This is not a level that you can teach to, kids are born and to some extent nurtured that way. The majority of children aren't AG and will never be. They do not need the special attention. These kids can be disruptive and if not identified may even do bad in school. They learn faster and grasp subject matter fast...then they get bored. They need to be challenged and not all teachers can do that, especially in a very academically diverse classroom. The problem is most prevalent in Elementary School. AG students may be gifted in only one area, and others in multiple areas, they might not be geniuses, only have the aptitude to learn quick. Middle schools and high schools generally have differentiated programs to help. For example, my 6th grade daughter is in 7/8 grade compacted math. But I had to request it, she was tested and approved with little problem. Some schools have more than others, some have a lot, some have few.
BL- Genetics and aptitude play into being AG, not the school system or teacher. They do need to be treated different for the good of society. They are special need kids.
Voice, I am confused.
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 22:03 — user1234Voice, I am confused. It appears you are saying that you had to request your daughter be tested to get into AG. If you had not taken action she would have been in normal classes. So, the growth rate of AG programs is governed by how proactive parents are? If you don’t insert yourself, your kid may not get the benefit? So, more determined parents might be demanding their kid get tested more often? That is what I was theorizing about the growth in AG students in CMS … if it depends on parents pushing, the growth rate of one system over another might be parent driven not kid driven.
“BL- Genetics and aptitude play into being AG, not the school system or teacher”
“But I had to request it, she was tested and approved with little problem.”
Sorry to confuse you Matt, you drew a wrong conclusion
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 22:48 — Voice_of_Reason_My daughter was identified AG in third grade in Oklahoma where I last lived. She was given AG status after the record of her IOWA tests were given to the school AG Coordinator. She received little AG attention of any value in ES. Their was a lot of "on paper" attention, but little in real practice. Her 5th grade teacher was wonderful and did help her despite the school. Most kids that are ID'ed AG have been selected by teachers for testing. Her 5th grade teacher ID'ed her to the MS for advanced courses. She initially was enrolled in 6th grade advanced math. We asked the school counselor if she could be tested for a higher level. We had been recommended to do so by a math tutor. She passed and is doing well. This is not an AG class, it is advanced placement. MS has more ability grouped classes. Her science teacher is even giving several students in her class a compacted lesson plan w/in the classroom. We are actually happy with MS, unlike the elementary school. But to get back on point, the teachers are the primary identifiers.
Not sure if they lowered
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 13:31 — shearertwNot sure if they lowered the bar or not, possible. Doesn't seem likely since the statements seemed to indicate the AG pop was growing at a faster rate, not that there was a sudden increase.
FYI, its not about "feeling special". AG is an educational need for many because if they are not challenged, the outcome is not good. Some could argue its more important than teaching to the low end because it leads to a productive outcome.
Apparently, no one ever made you feel special. I feel sorry for you for that.
I guess I have just seen a
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 14:02 — user1234I guess I have just seen a lot of grade inflation and bracket creep by schools under pressure by parents such that all kids are gifted and special now.
Just curious - why do you
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 14:17 — NWRaleighMomJust curious - why do you think CMS would be more prone to grade nflation compare to Wake?
Again, thsi is not about WHO is gifted but how top students are performing.
Did not assume they were
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 15:11 — user1234Did not assume they were ... I just wanted sheartw to question the data and see if lowering the bar could explain the increase in students and not take it at face value.
"CMS has grown its students as rapidly as Wake County and in fact the growth of CMS academically gifted students has been faster than Wake County’s."
The quote appear to say the number of students grew not their performance. One way to increase the population is to low the bar. I am not saying the did that.
Wake Gifted???
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 17:29 — connied2Let understand one thing about wake's gifted(or should I say NON gifted program in base non magnet school). The reason why wakes program has not grown as fast is the program in wake isn't working at all!!! Our school system is not truly doing an AG set up. It doesn't truly benefit the kids that need it. If you are at a magnet school yes you get programs. BUT if you are in a normal school it is a joke. We need to understand how this system works. It doesn't.
What we should be upset about is the fact that they bus us to heck and gone and our number are not any better than CMS. We should also understand that there is always more than way to do something. The board with it blinder on think thing this is the only way and they are stupidly narrow minded for that. If they would just see that other thing can work and that redoing this program is not a bad thing then maybe we could save the kids from not getting what they need, better schools.
My 2 cent worth... not that it means anything. :)
Good points ...
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 19:01 — user1234Good points ...
Eleanor Goattee's response....
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 11:46 — Bob_Sconce"This is also a human resources issue." (?!)
The implication being, of course, that a huge busing program, frustrating thousands of families, and (indirectly) a lawsuit that went to the NC Supreme Court are all necessitated by a "Human Resources issue."
Forget what I said about this being their "B" argument. They're not on their "C" argument: "We need to maintain the busing program because if we don't, we will have human resources issues."
Ms. Goettee's statement is
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 11:56 — CaryCurmudgeonMs. Goettee's statement is very revealing -- it shows that current board members cannot understand that there are other educational models which are much more successful than busing. I find this very disappointing. In the last year, we have paid for school board member junkets to Chicago and Atlanta. I see no evidence in their agenda that they learned a thing from these trips. If they had instead gone to NYC and Los Angeles they would have found some very special schools which have higher F&R enrollment, excellent and committed teachers, and test scores to be admired.
WCPSS was a leader in establishment of F&R busing. They have been so busy congratulating themselves and collecting soccer awards that they took their eye off the real objective -- improving student performance.
I also didn't realize that
Thu, 02/26/2009 - 10:43 — NWRaleighMomI also didn't realize that CMS has 51% F&R. And they have the nerve to compare Wake with CMS!