The focus now switches from gathering information to discussing action steps for the Wake County school board's economically disadvantaged student performance task force.
The first three meetings of the task force have largely consisted of hearing presentations about different things going on in the district. But for today's agenda, the task force will focus on discussing what the "desired state" should be for serving Wake's economically disadvantaged students.
The task force will discuss what things are helping Wake to move to the "desired state" and what's holding the district back. They'll then brainstorm action steps that can be taken.
Today's meeting will run from 4:30 p.m. to 6:30 p.m. at Washington Elementary School, 1000 Fayetteville Street in Raleigh.
Comments
STILL Labeling Wake
Fri, 08/27/2010 - 07:11 — AngelaWSTILL Labeling Wake Co. Children
Hello Majority - Think Globally, Act Vocationally
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 12:14 — user12345NEW YORK (Reuters) - Workers with specialized skills like electricians, carpenters and welders are in critically short supply in many large economies, a shortfall that marks another obstacle to the global economic recovery, a research paper by Manpower Inc concludes.
"It becomes a real choke-point in future economic growth," Manpower Chief Executive Jeff Joerres said. "We believe strongly this is really an issue in the labor market."
The global staffing and employment services company says employers, governments and trade groups need to collaborate on strategic migration policies that can alleviate such worker shortages. Skilled work is usually specific to a given location: the work cannot move, so the workers have to.
The shortage of skilled workers is the No. 1 or No. 2 hiring challenge in six of the 10 biggest economies, Manpower found in a recent survey of 35,000 employers. Skilled trades were the top area of shortage in 10 of 17 European countries, according to the survey.
While the short-term way to address to shortages is to embrace migration, the long-term solution is to change attitudes toward skilled trades, Manpower argues.
Since the 1970s, parents have been told that a university degree -- and the entry it affords into the so-called knowledge economy -- was the only track to a financially secure profession. But all of the skilled trades offer a career path with an almost assured income, Joerres said, and make it possible to open one's own business.
In the United States, recession and persistent high unemployment may lead parents and young people entering the workforce to reconsider their options.
WELDERS NEEDED
The skilled trades category also includes jobs like bricklayers, cabinet makers, plumbers and butchers, jobs that typically require a specialist's certification.
Older, experienced workers are retiring and their younger replacements often do not have the right training because their schools are out of touch with modern business needs. Also contributing to the shortage is social stigma attached to such work, Manpower argues in its paper published on Wednesday.
A poll of 15-year-olds by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development found only one in 10 American teenagers see themselves in a blue-collar job at age 30. The proportion was even lower in Japan.
Education could address that stigma. Students should be reminded that blue-collar work can be lucrative: skilled plumbers can make upwards of $75,000 a year, Manpower argues.
Overall, Manpower's fifth annual talent shortage survey found 31 percent of employers worldwide are having difficulty filling positions due to the lack of suitable workers available in their markets, up one percentage point over last year.
Right on user.... In these
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 12:36 — shearertwRight on user....
In these times, I think youth of today really ought to consider whether or not $50K/year just to go away and party for a few years and get some "nearly" worthless degree that will still require you to go on to actually obtain a useful skill is actually worth it. In my opinion, today's college degree is hardly worth the paper its written on much less the $200K you paid for it. In the future, I believe there will be better ways to obtain marketable skills. A college degree will still be one of them, but there will be others. A good vocational program (not one that just teaches shop) is pretty forward thinking (I think).
So...
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 13:21 — Bob_SconceUser knows I generally agree with him on this. But, unfortunately, any sort of centralized Votech school is likely going to have to be funded out of the next bond, even if you wanted to convert an existing high school (wouldn't "Enloe vocational and technical magnet school" just fry some people). In the meantime, there are vo-tech courses scattered thoughout Wake's high schools -- IIRC, Sanderson has an auto-repair class, for example.
As to your second point, a good college gives you three things: (1) an education, (2) a signal to employers, potential mates (and their parents) that you're bright, and (3) access to an alumni network. (1) you can almost get completely on-line now, for free, if you're driven. (2) and (3), however, are much more difficult.
Sometimes that combination is worth $200K, sometimes it's not. You're a fool if you go to Duke for a philosophy major, unless you're quite wealthy or score serious non-debt financial aid. But, go to MIT for a computer engineering major, and it's definitely worth it.
Teenagers and FaceBook
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 23:42 — bluedaisyNo auto repair class at SHS, hasn't been for years Bob. Info from the kids in my home, via their Facebook. to their friends there.
That's fair enough Bob.
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 16:24 — shearertwThat's fair enough Bob. However, the group of people who will actually go to MIT for anything is extremely small. What I'm suggesting (and could very well be wrong) is that for your average everyday college student say at NC State, UNC, E. Carolina, etc., there may very well be alternative paths (not necessarily clear today) in the future that will be of greater value. Perhaps the $200K was an exaggeration. In order for most of those students to make a good living, they will have to go to addition profession or graduate school after college. I don't think this model necessarily makes the best since any longer, especially with the ever increasing cost of a 4 yr degree. I also don't think a traditional vocational option is the best either (although that would be one component of it). I'm actually thinking of something a little bigger perhaps with options to work towards degrees in criminal justice, nursing, etc. that could be finished in a community college coupled with online courses etc. A little hard to explain here so I'll stop....
Personally, I have lost
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 19:35 — user12345Personally, I have lost faith in the value of an expensive undergraduate education ... like investing a lot in private HS ...what is Duke now , $40k x 4 = $160k ...seems like a lot to recover over say a UNC degree ($15k x 4=$60k) ... I have seen a number of side by side comparison on college vs. being plumber and college is not a sure bet ....we are looking at law school now for $90k ... $60k starting pay (I know if your go to Yale and work on Wall Street it is higher)... would take 20 years to pay off ... it actually look like being a paralegal might be a better investment ..and in one poll I say 75 percent of lawyers would choose to do something else. A similar percentage would advise their children not to become lawyers. ....
.....http://www.admissionsconsultants.com/lawschool/return-on-investment/
Medical school is looking
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 20:49 — zandeMedical school is looking even worse.
I guess it depends on how
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 21:07 — HJ2ss2I guess it depends on how important it is to you. Medical school could mean paying back a $380,000 loan after 4 yrs of med school, 1yr internship and a 3 to 5 yr residency.
I know primary care docs who
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 21:12 — zandeI know primary care docs who start at 70k. They have also lost so many years of earning power and they have huge student loan debt to pay back. Specialists do better but we really need primary care docs. It is a very difficult situation. HVAC and electrical makes more money out of the gate for way less up front investment.
70k isn't much when you have
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 21:24 — HJ2ss270k isn't much when you have a loan that size to repay. That's one reason there is a shortage of primary care physicians. After med school students choose residencies in specialties because they can earn more income to pay off their loans.
It depends on how you look
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 20:42 — jenmanIt depends on how you look at the 'investment'. I don't view college as only worth it if my kids make a certain amount of money afterwards. I wouldn't want them to look at being a paralegal because it would be a better return on the investment. If they want to be paralegals, there's nothing wrong with that. But I wouldn't encourage them to choose that over attorney because of the 'return on the investment'.
I think the bigger problem is the dumbing down of the college degree in general.
See since you are wealthy
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 21:08 — user12345See since you are wealthy and can cover the $60k undergraduate and $90k graduate degrees your child never has to look at the financial return of life's decisions ... "follow your dreams" ....most kids do not have the luxury your children have to be oblivious of their decisions ....ultimately, they will need to learn that lesson when you are no longer paying their way.
Who said I'm paying their
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 21:28 — jenmanWho said I'm paying their entire way? Who said they will never have to look at the financial return of life's decisions? Seems like I touched a nerve with you.
I don't view college as just a means to a job or career. That's obviously a big part of going to college, but there is so much more to it than that. I never want my kids to lose sight of that and I'll do what I can to make sure that they can follow their dreams. Doesn't mean that it's a free ride for them. I hope they are as lucky as my husband and I are in finding something they are good at, enjoy, and can earn a living doing. Whatever that is, I'll do what I can to help them achieve it. Anybody can do that for their kids--encourage them and help them achieve their goals. You don't have to be wealthy (what's your definition of that?). My blue collar, factory working grandparents did it for my mom. It's hard, not impossible.
"You don't have to be
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 22:06 — user12345"You don't have to be wealthy (what's your definition of that?). My blue collar, factory working grandparents did it for my mom. It's hard, not impossible."
I think having $150k of disposable income to give a college without worrying about the return is wealthy .... I think that is what you might have missed in the discussion that college today is not your grandparent's college. What I mean is that the discussion is about the rate of return of a college education. You don't see college as an investment, question it worth nor compare it against alternative. You have probably been indoctrinated to believe that a college education is required. Just like the advice that buying a house is a good investment has changed recently, getting a college education does not have the same pay back previous generation (like your mother) saw. Personally, I blame that on parents and school system today who all send their kids to college which jacks up the costs (supply and demand). If every HS school prepares kids only for college admission today, it gives colleges a captive audience and the ability to keep prices high.
You don't see college as an
Fri, 08/27/2010 - 09:45 — jenmanYou don't see college as an investment, question it worth nor compare it against alternative. You have probably been indoctrinated to believe that a college education is required. Just like the advice that buying a house is a good investment has changed recently, getting a college education does not have the same pay back previous generation (like your mother) saw.
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You're making a lot of assumptions about me and my beliefs. Of course I see college as an investment and I definitely question it's worth. I also don't think it's the only way to go. I see college as more than just a means to an end and the payback is not just measured in monetary terms.
Among other factors, I also measure the worth of a college degree by the academic rigor of the program and by whether or not critical thinking and communication skills are stressed. I think that the college degree has been dumbed down to meet the expectation that everybody needs a degree for every job.
Jen you have just been
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 21:39 — starsonoursJen you have just been "stereo typed" by User, it is a common occurance, you were not the first and I doubt you will be the last.
Maybe a misinterpretation
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 21:51 — HJ2ss2Maybe a misinterpretation rather than a stereotype. I think "return on your investment" might have been interpreted as you paying for your child's education rather than considering that your child might apply for a student loan.....in which case, it will be their investment.
I was basing the stereo type
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 21:58 — starsonoursI was basing the stereo type on Users "you are wealthy" comment.
You are both right ...
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 22:11 — user12345You are both right ... investing $150k in education whether from parents or child is a serious investment that needs to be considered carefully and alternatives explored. If $150k is small change and not worth the time to think about, I would consider that wealth.
If $150k is small change and
Fri, 08/27/2010 - 09:26 — jenmanIf $150k is small change and not worth the time to think about, I would consider that wealth.
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I never said that it was small change and not worth thinking about. I believe I said that I don't think of a college degree just as what the return on the investment will be once my kids get a job. I don't want my kids to base their college and career decisions solely on future earnings. Obviously that's a big factor but I don't want it to supercede their interests, passions and happiness. If one of my kids really wants to be a general practioner who works in underserved areas, I wouldn't push them towards radiology or cardiology just because they will make much more money. We would talk about the financial implications of that decision but ultimately they've got to follow their passions. We'd never have any teachers, college professors, musicans, etc if people only thought about earning potential when choosing a career. :-)
I do agree with you that I'd rather not have my kids working 15 hour days and never seeing their families just to pay off their student loans. I also agree that exploring alternatives is not a bad thing.
Or it could be a different
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 22:16 — HJ2ss2Or it could be a different value system. (I don't mean "value" in the monetary sense).
Hmm...
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 20:34 — Bob_SconceIf you go to a lower-tier law school, you're right. But, even in today's economy, the median starting salary at the top 15 or so law schools is around $160,000, and that doesn't include bonuses, which could easily get the first year to $200K. Lot of money for a 26-year-old. But, when you consider that those people work 15 hour days for years, you understand why there are so many unhappy lawyers.
You also have to consider that the advertised tuition isn't really what you pay, including loans. At Harvard, for example, if you parents make less than $100K, it's a free ride.
A lot of the math depends on what you study -- the Duke philosophy degree won't get you a higher salary at Starbucks than the UNC philosophy degree. But, the MIT, Stanford, CMU or Calteck engineering degree will, on average, buy you more than the equivalent degree at NC State. Apart from that Apple engineer who lost the iPhone, not too many NC State grads in Silicon Valley. (But, if you want to stay in North Carolina, the NC State degree is just about as good.)
Bob ... your examples seem
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 21:22 — user12345Bob ... your examples seem to skew to the top 10% of things ... top law schools, top undergraduate schools, top salary, etc. .... I am typically talking about the other 90% of the world where ... the district attorney, criminal lawyer, government lawyer, etc. who make much less ... and it would be so sad if my daughter made $160k and had to pay someone to raise her children (morning to night daycare) while working those 15hr days ... what is that worth .... btw, I think the Harvard free ride is undergraduate not law school ...
Yeah...
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 22:00 — Bob_SconceI should have said Harvard undergrad.
Most of those people starting at $160 stick it out for a few years, pay off their loans and move to someplace a lot less stressful. Not a life I'd choose either.
In general, I agree with you -- most of the mid-tier private schools are way overpriced and the students would be better off going to a decent state school. Unfortunately, if you're only able to get into a mid-tier private school, then you're unlikely to get into the better state schools, which are generally only recognized in the state they're in.
Has Sanderson's auto shop
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 14:28 — HJ2ss2Has Sanderson's auto shop recently reopened? As of a couple years ago, the program was dropped. I wonder if they could arrange something through Wake Tech? I know some students in AP were taking some courses and getting advanced credit. Why not for vocational courses?
I agree with you on the importance of a college education but some students, for one reason or another are either not interested or not academically inclined. With four years of only academic offerings, these are the kids that end up dropping out.
Any WCPSS student that is 16
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 18:27 — Tony_LucasAny WCPSS student that is 16 years old can take courses at Wake Tech for credit for free. The student has to provide their own transportation and buy the required materials for the class. I took three classes there my senior year of high school and received honors credit for them, not AP credit (if I had taken the courses at NCSU and paid for them, which can be expensive, I would have received AP credit for at least one). You can find out more on WCPSS's website at http://www.wcpss.net/school_to_career/wtcc/concurrent/index.html
Were they classes that
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 18:53 — jenmanWere they classes that weren't offered at your high school or were they ones not offered at any high school? I'm just wondering because the NC virtual courses are available too and they are free. Just trying to see how they all fit together and potentially overlap.
Oh.
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 14:53 — Bob_SconceWell, that's why I put IIRC in -- my knowledge is about 10 years old, and that has apparently changed.
I agree with you on the not-going-to-college thing. While the district should be doing everything it can to prepare kids for college, it also needs to have a plan for those kids who aren't going. Vo-tech seems to be a good example of that.
The district needs to be smart about vo-tech, otherwise it will drop kids into shrinking markets. There are still people in the US who do TV repair, for example, but there are a lot fewer than there used to be and that would not be a wise choice for a program.
Apex HS did the same having,
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 14:39 — user12345Apex HS did the same having, dropping and recreating their auto shop classes which shows WCPSS lack of a long range VoTech plan... the article said the Apex teacher had to spend a lot of time going around begging for equipment from local garages ... the complaint about this program was it was an elective set up for college bound students to blow off some steam when not taking AP course vs. a full fledge you are a certified auto mechanic making $40k/yr when you graduate at 18 education.
Didn't get the memo.
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 12:27 — HJ2ss2Didn't get the memo. Everybody in Wake County is going to college.
They have needed to develop skilled trade programs for years. A definite deficit in the system. Don't know what it will take to convince them.
We have a votech school
Fri, 08/27/2010 - 00:05 — bluedaisy(not picking on you HJ) but we have a votech school - a good one too - Wake Tech. What we need are classes in every high school that give an introduction to various votech opportunities for students not 4 year college bound that are trying to decide what to do once they graduate. Wake Tech's auto mechanic course is over 70 hours of instruction, that includes ethics, English, Math - have you seen some of the computer equipment your mechanic uses these days? Thats two and a half years of instruction. High schools can't match that and graduate to NC minimum course standards. BUT - I do agree we need introductory classes for vo tech. I suggest those of you that want a votech school to go check out Wake Tech's degree offerings, and the list of classes to take to get them. The days of leaving high school with auto repair 1 and 2 and getting a job at Leith are over. (The joke at Firestone is that the Bluedaisy household needs to have them on retainer!) AND - there are companies around town that will PAY the tuition at Wake Tech for X # of years guaranteed employment. But these kids need the basics - one math above alg2, good reading writing skills, to cut it in the Wake Tech curriculum.
It would be interesting for
Fri, 08/27/2010 - 08:52 — jenmanIt would be interesting for WCPSS to partner with Wake Tech on some of the vo-tech/CTE stuff. So the auto mechanic course is 2.5 years at Wake Tech? I wonder if there could be a joint program where the kids could finish HS and get the auto mech degree in a total of 5 or 5.5 years. Like the 3-2 programs to get a Master's in a total of 5 years instead of 4 undergrad and then 2 grad.
Perhaps we just need to do a better job of letting kids know about some of these opportunities? It seems that we are pushing traditional college prep and ignoring everything else. Or at least not concentrating on it as much. I also think there is a bias against or misunderstanding of some of the CTE pathways from people who have a traditional college degree mindset. I would have never gone to college for Interior Design because I never thought of it as a 'real' college degree. Yet after getting my BA in History I went back for my MS in Family & Consumer Sciences/Interior Design. It was eye-opening for me to see the Industrial Technology and FCS departments and all the opportunities there. I still absolutely treasure (cheesy word, but it's accurate) my liberal arts undergrad and I don't regret it one bit. But maybe I could have double majored in History and Int Design the first time around. I think that a lot of parents don't fully understand all the opportunities out there. College is always changing and we tend to think of things as how they were when we went to school.
I'm going to check out Wake Tech's offerings--thanks for the tip. :-)
HS / Wake Tech partnership
Fri, 08/27/2010 - 09:15 — user12345HS / Wake Tech partnership sound like a great idea
Thank you. You were very
Fri, 08/27/2010 - 05:02 — HJ2ss2Thank you. You were very kind. I didn't even need to wince.
I understand the complexity of a career in mechanics. I agree Wake has some great programs!
The problem comes in getting these students through our academically oriented high schools. Introductory VoTech would be a great idea. I've seen too many students struggle through the academics and finally give up. Some make it back to WakeTech for their GED program then, sometimes, on to a vocational program.
When are they going to get
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 12:44 — user12345When are they going to get off hiring lawyers, changing bell schedules and creating zones and get a vocational program in place? Debra, John, and Ron don't have regular jobs so maybe they are not in touch with the market anymore ... I think is is cruel and usual that they continue to screw around with their political aspirations posing for the Republican and Tea Party while things need to be done ... now ... they continue to funnel kids, especially poor kids, to non-existent opportunities in college that those kids can not qualify for or afford ... are they stupid, ignorant, out of touch, too busy with politics, deaf ???? ... how many times does the market have to say that they don't need your graduates to be prepared for college but need them to be welders ....
I don't know if the new
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 13:09 — HJ2ss2I don't know if the new board understands the need for vocational education in the system. Certainly someone on the task force must have thought of it....maybe not. This would be the time to let them know. Aren't they looking for strategies to help students who are having academic difficulty?
Tedesco said the system needs CTE during his campaign
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 14:37 — TrailerParkGirlTedesco said the system needs Votech/CTE during his campaign and user knows that because that was covered in an exchange on this blog then.
Talk is cheap
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 14:42 — user12345John is off doing zones while we continue to graduate unemployable non-college bound students ... and the market keeps asking for a different product.
Get on the other school
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 16:21 — jenmanGet on the other school board members, then. There's no reason why any of the others (minority as well as majority members) can't spearhead this effort. Horace Tart started talking about it a few years ago but it went nowhere.
You could speak in front of the school board or write a letter to the editor to get the topic out there.
Horace Tart was the wrong person
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 18:53 — g88ky07for that task. Check that, for anything that involved speaking.
It just wasn't "ekitable" enough for him.
The minority has been told
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 16:38 — user12345The minority has been told to sit down and shut up ... they really don't need to even attend the meeting anymore since they have been shut out ... the majority controls the agenda, the committees, policies, etc. .... if something is going to happen, the majority will suggest it and vote it ... all action and blame lies with them now ...
If the minority members
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 17:28 — starsonoursIf the minority members aren't going to contribute, then they should resign. Yes on the major issues that divide the board they will not win, but there are other issues (such as this) they can agree on. If you recall prior to the last election there were a lot of 7-1 votes. That didn't stop Ron from bringing up issues that were important to him.
That's a cowardly excuse.
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 17:22 — jenmanThat's a cowardly excuse. Plus, it still doesn't stop you from speaking out about the issue.
"Task Force dominated by
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 11:37 — HJ2ss2"Task Force dominated by white theorists and do gooders." Some parents of ED students spoke...
Not too promising. Well intentioned but hardly a formula for successful program development. I wonder, when the parents of ED parents spoke, did anyone listen to what they were really saying and were they comfortable enough to say what they really felt.
It must be true, I read it in the Tabloids (on a blog)
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 14:33 — TrailerParkGirlI would encourage you to attend a meeting and judge for yourself whether it is "dominated by white theorists and do gooders" before deciding that that is true and that the Task Force is not too promising.
Thank you. Good advice.
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 15:08 — HJ2ss2Thank you. Good advice.
Let's keep this in
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 11:51 — shearertwLet's keep this in perspective.
While the ED students are an important subset of the school system that needs to be served, they're not the ONLY students served by WCPSS. The system cannot and should not be totally focused centered on ED students. We have lot of NED students who deserve equal attention and focus from the system and their teachers.
I.E. We could create a system that is the best in the world for ED students, but sucks for everyone else. That would be just as much a failure as the system we have now.
Agree. They should get input
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 12:31 — HJ2ss2Agree. They should get input from any subset being served. I only referred to ED because that was the issue being discussed.
Fair enough and ED
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 12:42 — shearertwFair enough and ED is important. I'm beginning to get somewhat exhausted with the ED and diversity debate (esp on this blog) as there are other education issues in WCPSS. I know we don't care about the kids of "rich people" but they are kids none the less and are not (in my opinion) getting the best possible education in WCPSS. Considering NED makes up over 70% of WCPSS, I think we should spend a little more time discussing issues that effect them as well.