The Wake vs. Charlotte question is coming up again following the release of the latest SAT results.
As noted in Sunday's Charlotte Observer, there's a big achievement and graduation gap between Charlotte's high-poverty schools and its more affluent ones. The graduation rate for black CMS students has been dropping.
The article also notes that Charlotte's black and low-income students are below the state graduation rate for those categories. But those same groups in Guilford, Wake and districts surrounding Charlotte generally topped state averages.
Also, students with disabilities in Charlotte are graduating at a much lower rate than their peers statewide, in Wake and in several districts surrounding CMS.
The article notes how John Dornan, president of the nonprofit Public School Forum of North Carolina, said the SAT report “hit me like a ton of bricks.”
In his weekly statewide electronic newsletter, Dornan cited the performance gaps between CMS schools, as well as gaps between affluent and impoverished counties, as evidence that “the iron triangle” – parents' education, family income and race – remains a painfully strong predictor of academic performance.
The Public School Forum's newsletter also includes an anonymous letter from a person who unfavorably compares Charlotte's SAT results to those in Wake.
“Compare Wake County to Mecklenburg. It’s amazing that anyone would say that Mecklenburg is doing things better (or even the same) with its “neighborhood schools” approach rather than the diversity program Wake County has," writes the anonymous letter writer.
Comments
WCPSS does it again
Fri, 09/04/2009 - 07:25 — user12345WCPSS is hitting on all cylinder .... congratulations .. Students in the Class of 2009 set records in the Wake County Public School System for the number of students taking Advanced Placement exams and the total number of exams taken. They had the highest average exam score in the last four years and the highest percentage of students earning a score of 3 or higher on the exam in the last four years. WCPSS students had a higher average AP exam score than students in NC. A significantly higher percentage of WCPSS students achieved a qualified score of 3 or higher on the AP exams than did students in NC. More than 90 percent of WCPSS students scored a 3 or higher on Calculus BC. More than 80 percent of students scored a 3 or higher on World History, US Government and Politics and Psychology. (No I don't have an ED break out or how KIPP students did or how CMS did for you naysyers)
http://www.wcpss.net/news/2009_sept1_ap/
Don't have break out - doesn't really tell me much
Fri, 09/04/2009 - 08:18 — TrailerParkGirlIt's good news and makes a good soundbite but like most things needs to be thought about critically.
Wake County is more affluent than the rest of the state, the most educated county in the state and tied for third most educated in the nation.
Research shows (since WCPSS likes to use that) that there is a strong correlation between parental education levels, income levels and academic success. In other words, research would indicate that based on demographics Wake should be doing the best. Therefore, what would be much more informational is the student breakdown.
You know what I noticed in the article about the crowded classrooms - the pictures. In the pictures of the two classes described as honors or advanced, there appeared to be a total of three kids that did not look like me and based on the ED/race correlation here that means there is a good chance there weren't more than a couple, if any, ED students either. THAT is a problem.
If you look at the CMS school AP scores - they are much lower. Oh you think, must be neighborhood schools are bad. Until you read that they are doing a program where they are pushing kids up into AP courses that otherwise would be not be taking them. Many of those kids are not scoring a 3 or higher yet, but they feel the experience of being in an AP course will benefit the student anyway even if it makes the system scores look less pretty. Student benefits before school appearance - now there's a thought.
Neither CMS nor WCPSS has all the answers, but at least CMS is trying to do more about closing the acheivement gap than just paying it lip service. But I know for you it seems to be all about your kids and your property value, so the acheivement gap is of little concern to you.
I did want to mention that
Fri, 09/04/2009 - 10:48 — user12345I did want to mention that the schools taking the most test and having the highest passing scores are part of a privilege group who offer the full range of AP classes and courses leading up to being able to take AP course … not mentioned in the article is the fact that many other AP capable students were not able to take AP course because they attended high ED schools which did not have enough critical mass of advanced students to offer the prerequisites or AP courses. That is were the disparity is that a family needs to live in a wealthy neighborhood with a low ED population if they want a serious education that involves these advanced offerings. That is not something WSCA won’t tell you.
Ask yourself why
Fri, 09/04/2009 - 12:55 — TrailerParkGirlHere's a hint: WCPSS's PRIORITY IS SCHOOLS AND THE SYSTEM NOT YOUR KID, MY KID, OR CERTAINLY WHAT ED KIDS NEED, WHICH IS WHAT WSCA IS TRYING TO CHANGE. Sorry, for the cap letters, but I'm frustrated. By WCPSS I do not mean the school level staff, I believe most of them do care about what students need. I'm talking about WCPSS upper level management and BOE(eR).
And the supporters can save it on the "they care about kids" because they themselves have said their policy is about healthy schools, not students, so obviously caring or not their priority is schools and the system, not students.
You and Whalercane keep talking about how CMS spends more, this is one area where they spend it.
In 2007, CMS had 128,789 students (per datadirect) and AP tests taken of 11,950.
In 2007, WCPSS had 128,748 students but AP tests taken of only 8,205.
In the past ten years, the number of WCPSS students taking AP exams has more than doubled to 4,489 in 2008-09 from 1,798 in 1998-99.
For CMS, AP enrollment has increased from 4,079 students in 1995-1996 to 11,807 in 2006-2007.
4,489 vs 11,807 students are you kidding me? That is a huge difference in AP enrollment and # of tests taken given the systems are the same size.
Here's some information on CMS's AP program.
http://www.cms.k12.nc.us/mediaroom/aboutus/Documents/Advanced%20Placement%20Program.pdf
Crowded classroom pictures
Fri, 09/04/2009 - 09:32 — lferreriI'm so glad someone else noticed those pictures. If I remember correctly, there also seemed to be a lot more boys than girls in the advanced math class too.
Yup, until people started believing girls could do math
Fri, 09/04/2009 - 12:09 — TrailerParkGirlYup, until people started believing girls could do math.
Jen
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 11:53 — RiversideRealistThat last part is a shame. Truly. :(
*Anonymous letter writer*
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 10:05 — Big_Picture*Anonymous letter writer* has the status-quo party line down solid. Could be one of a few here on the blog.
More to think about
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 09:17 — user12345America is among the industrialized world's worst victims of infant mortality, teenage pregnancy and child poverty, even though it spends more per child than better-performing countries such as Switzerland, Japan and the Netherlands, a new survey indicates.
The U.S. spends an average of $140,000 per child, well over the OECD average of $125,000. But this spending is skewed heavily toward older children between 12 and 17, the OECD survey showed.
As a result, it says, infant mortality in the U.S. is the fourth-worst in the OECD after Mexico, Turkey and Slovakia. American 15-year-olds rank seventh from the bottom on the OECD's measure of average educational achievement. Child poverty rates in the U.S. are nearly double the OECD average, at 21.6 percent compared to 12.4 percent.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090901/ap_on_re_eu/eu_oecd_child_development
Test Scores and Graduation Rates
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 19:09 — Eric_BIt has already been observed that the most if not all of the SAT score
increase can be attributed to the reduced participation rate. If fewer
students at the margins are taking the test, the average score is sure
to rise. In fact, the College Board strongly advises againsts SAT
score comparisons between states and districts for that very reason (differing participation rates).
Personally, I would like to see SAT score data for each demographic group for both Wake and Charlotte-Mecklenburg so we can compare apples to apples. We want to compare student performance, not school performance! Does anyone know where we can get such data?
Charlotte certainly does seem to have a problem with graduation rates, but I would not congratulate ourselves for our graduation rates here in Wake County either.
In this blog post Mr. Hui notes: "The graduation rate for black CMS students has been dropping." The same trend holds here in Wake County. Let's look at the 4-year graduation rates for black Wake students:
2005-06: 69.9%
2006-07: 65.3%
2007-08: 64.1%
2008-09: 63.6%
Charlotte's graduation rate is worse, but we're not trending so well either, especially compared to Guilford County, which beats us in graduation rates across most subgroups.
gap
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 17:13 — loriacSo there's a gap between the economically disadvantaged STUDENTS and those who are not. Similar story in Wake county. Except we bus these kids around so they're not all at one school, and all the SCHOOLS look ok.
I'd like to know the stats for the students, not the schools, and what the change has been over time. Wake has fewer ED students, so it's not surprising the scores are higher. Let's figure out what's needed to improve student achievement - not SCHOOL achievement.
Wake's achievement gap is
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 17:56 — CaryCurmudgeonWake's achievement gap is growing.
WCPSS is better at the
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 08:00 — rr77rr99WCPSS is better at the 'shell game' than Charlotte school board is :)
"there's a big achievement
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 16:35 — user12345"there's a big achievement and graduation gap between Charlotte's high-poverty schools and its more affluent ones."
Duh ... neighborhood schools lead to very wealthy and very poor schools.... very poor schools lack political clout or PACs and are quickly forgotten ….very poor schools tend to do very poorly academically (ok, except for some KIPP school in DC).... no surprise ... it is played out the same all over the country ... so, good news for WCPSS keeps rolling in ... their innovative program of diversity appears to trump CMS status quo neighborhood system yet again … more performance for less cost per student ....
Wealthy versus Poor Schools
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 17:52 — JanisTangoYou must be talking about the parents wealth. The schools would get the same money for educating their students regardless of economic status. I understand there are intangibles associated with wealthy versus poor parents, but the educational dollars aren't different...are they?
Dollars
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 18:22 — ksinclairI believe they are different, Janis. It's my understanding that CMS allocates additional dollars to the poorer, high minority schools in order to "equalize" them with the other schools in the district. This has been one rationale for their neighborhood school philosophy. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
That is Correct. CMS
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 21:45 — WhalerCaneThat is Correct. CMS spends about $400 more per student than WCPSS in large part to pump money in to poorer 'urban' schools, without getting desired results.
Wake's SAT scores last year increased by 20 points whereas the State Average dropped, including ED students. Yes, it could be in part because fewer are now taking it, just like one of the reasons Wake's Economically Disadvantage students score worse than some districts in large part because we have significantly fewer dropouts.
CMS 08-09 EOG Results
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 06:12 — Eric_BIn another thread, I supplied current 2009-10 budget numbers for CMS and WCPSS. WCPSS is spending $10 more per student this year, so please stop repeating the inaccurate $400 per student number. It is not true any more.
Wake's SAT scores rose 14 points while the participation rate dropped dramatically from 73.6% to 67.1%. Not that impressive an achievement overall.
CMS beat WCPSS in EOG scores for 2008-09 among black, hispanic, and ED students. This has nothing to do with dropout rate because we're talking grades 3-8. Why do you think that is? It seems to me they are getting better results in elementary through middle school and trending higher on EOC tests in high school.
We have some of the same worrying trends here in WCPSS that we need to worry about such as declining graduation rates. Continuing down the same course is not an option.
Eric, Instead of
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 08:00 — user12345Eric,
Instead of becoming amateur accountants, I think it is best to stick with the officially reported and audit costs in the NC Report card.
Wake
http://www.ncreportcards.org/src/servlet/srcICreatePDF?pLEACode=920&pYear=2007-2008&pDataType=1
Local 2440
State 5180
Fed 497
------
8117
CM
http://www.ncreportcards.org/src/servlet/srcICreatePDF?pLEACode=600&pYear=2007-2008&pDataType=1
Local 2592
State 5238
Fed 765
------
8595
8595-8117=478
Current Year
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 08:27 — Eric_BWhat does quoting budget numbers from 2 years ago, before the state budget crisis have to do with the current situation?
Here are current numbers:
WCPSS
http://www.wcpss.net/budget/2009-10-bpb/2009-10-bpb.pdf
Local: 2262
Other Local: 226
State: 5485
Fed: 606
------
8579
CMS
http://www.cms.k12.nc.us/mediaroom/budget/Board%20of%20Education%20presentations/2009-2010%20Budget%20Request.pdf
Local: 2613
Other Local: 118
State: 5128
Fed: 711
------
8570
8579-8570 = 9
The State budget crisis
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 08:38 — user12345The State budget crisis happen a few months ago (e.g. >40 kids in a class today did not affect the SAT scores from last year) while what kids learned for tests happens over the last few years ....
All last school year...
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 08:45 — Eric_BThe budget crisis was going on all last school year. Here's just one story:
http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/3983171/
I'm sure you can find more.
Eric_B is a calm, rational,
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 10:02 — Big_PictureEric_B is a calm, rational, educated person whenever he is faced with lies and false information. Thank you for keeping it real.
Perry, the comparison to CMS
Mon, 08/31/2009 - 22:13 — CaryCurmudgeonPerry, the comparison to CMS is interesting, but what we should be more focused on is what is happening right here at home. Our drop out rates are increasing, especially among high-risk students. We have got to stem the tide. Continuing along at current course and speed does not seem to be the answer.
Joe,Our drop our rates
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 22:59 — WhalerCaneJoe,
Our drop our rates are not increasing as much as CMS, but I agree we have to do more. I also agree with much of what you have to say, just not the elimination of social economic diversity as one of 15 components is making school assignment decisions. Hopefully, after Oct. 6, we can get beyond that, and start anew, and begin healing many of the divisions on this issue that exist in our community.
So, CMS neighborhood
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 08:18 — user12345So, CMS neighborhood schools are not the answer and leads to economically polarized schools with poor performance and disparity and their effort to overcome the problem with money is not working … there are the ever elusive successful pilot programs like KIPP that will work on a limited basis (e.g. requires extensive parental participation, after school participate, and uniforms … all of which would help existing public schools if implemented) and require additional funding that is tentative at best and a general public that is prides itself on having a low tax rate and is not interested in any tax increases for any kids much less poor ones. The one thing that could actually help is vocational training but college educated genius here don’t see the value and spend all their time worried about SAT scores which are associate with a nonexistent college education that is unaffordable. And what are the big issues for the affluent – MYR because it increases two income daycare cost and bussing because it brings disruptive, low income, non-neighborhood kids to unwelcoming schools. And through all this WCPSS continue to do above average with below average resources and constant carping from arm chair educators.
WRONG!!
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 08:43 — AngelaW"And what are the big issues for the affluent – MYR because it increases two income daycare cost "
it's most harmful to the F&R families increasing already unaffordable day care costs, as evidenced by previous opt out numbers...
Angela ... you are probably
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 08:49 — user12345Angela ... you are probably right that any family living hand to mouth where both parents have to work whether rich or poor is hurt by non-traditional schedules that increase their child care costs. My point is that wealthier parents are the ones that will scream the loudest and form PACs when it hits their wallet.
Yes, it is the
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 11:47 — jenmanYes, it is the non-disadvantaged ones who usually form groups and 'scream' the loudest. The poor simply do not have the necessary time or money to do it. It doesn't even necessarily take money itself to do it, but there is a loss of income. I think that most low income parents are working for an hourly wage. Any time they take off or work to attend a meeting to protest is money not earned.
Low income parents DID speak out against YR though--they just did it with their feet when they still had the option to 'opt-out' to traditional. I know that one yr middle school had about 100 kids not show up when school started. When asked they said that they were going to go to the trad school they had previously gone to. When they showed up at their old base middle school they were turned away and sent back to the yr. So now those kids have missed the first month of school. The nodes impacted had F&R mostly in the 40s or higher.
While the F&R may not have screamed the loudest or formed PACs
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 10:03 — TrailerParkGirlthey did quietly show their viewpoint by opting out of MYR while they could.
Hummmm.... can anyone say
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 08:06 — rr77rr99Hummmm.... can anyone say Vocational School options?????????
NOT EVERY SINGLE CHILD..rich, poor, white, black, hispanic, aisan, is cut out to be a student. Some just don't aspire to go to college. When are the school boards and admin. going to figure that out?
And guess what, just because they don't go to college, does not mean they will not be a success. I know a multi millionaire who didn't graduate high school but now runs successful businesses and can't give his money away fast enough. So, maybe the focus needs to shift from trying to make every single kid read Shakespeare and match their skill level and interest into something that can make them productive members of society in some form!
agree
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 08:33 — user12345As long as people who make decisions (federal, local, state, BOE) think that everyone should emulate them (narcissistic) the educational system will continue to funnel kids to college with no regard if it is the right goal or not. Maybe we need more non-college BOE and fewer educators who can make the point that college is not the only route.
I want to give you an example of one comment that bugged me … person said we should not have a magnet Vocational school but distribute the auto classes among all the schools so her Johnny could have an elective to supplement his college prep classes (class to blow off steam) … the vocational classes are not electives for college bound Johnny by the first real career job for Juan. Until we take vocational education seriously and think of it in the same terms as a math and science magnet or IB schools it will languish.
What has the current BOE and admin done for Vo-tech?
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 09:51 — TrailerParkGirlWhat has the current BOE and admin done for Vo-tech beside take a trip to GA to see how they do it. I haven't heard anything much since then.
What if we did both (have a strong Vo-tech program and still offer small engine repair for non-Votech students who are interested) like my hometown? My college bound, engineering type, car buff husband took it and not because he wanted a blow off class but because he was really interested in it. What if we actually got an appreciation for diversity and didn't assume that Johnny was college bound and Juan was only Vo-tech material and college can't be an option for Juan? There are scholarships and financial aid and the KIPP and Capital Prep kids are figuring out how to do it. For that matter how about not assuming just because someone is named Juan, they are ED? In my HS, there was a mix of ED and NED kids both in Vo-tech and honors college prep courses and it wasn't assumed just because you were NED or ED you were destined for one track or the other.
But, by all means keep up the only solution is continuing one-size fits all, bussing for healthy schools, who cares about healthy students or meeting individual student needs as long as we spend less, and Juan isn't college material and Johnny isn't Vo-tech material mantra. Just make sure you use the word diversity so it sounds good.
“What if we did both
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 10:27 — user12345“What if we did both (have a strong Vo-tech program and still offer small engine repair for non-Votech students who are interested) like my hometown?”
Great … but given that we can not get a real vocational education program off the ground it seems prudent to get one working before offering it to anyone …. I appreciate your enthusiasm but we need to walk … actually get off the couch … before we run …
“For that matter how about not assuming just because someone is named Juan, they are ED? In my HS, there was a mix of ED and NED kids both in Vo-tech and honors college prep courses and it wasn't assumed just because you were NED or ED you were destined for one track or the other. “
There goes the “chip on your shoulder” again … I never mentioned ED/NED … you seem to read class struggle into every post … my point is that college is not an option for many – rich, poor, Hispanics, Blacks, MYR kids, etc. due to cost, convenience, interest, etc. … everything is geared to getting kids to college and anyone not in that mold is discarded without any skills to earn a living the day they graduate … also, if you see my post on why Hispanic students don’t bother to graduate or take the SAT (two recent concerns of many here) you will see they have no opportunity to afford college, a culture of working and finishing school after middle school, etc. work against college being the final destination of this group …
BTW, Notice Vocational Education is not a plank for WSCA ….
School Board candidates/representatives who will move forward with innovative solutions
… Maybe you are supposed to imply VoTech from “innovative solution”??
Finally,
“There are scholarships and financial aid …”
When you get your kids into college you will see how it really works …
We have to walk
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 11:03 — TrailerParkGirlI agree. My concern is how long the status quo has had a chance to start walking, but has not.
I agree that the current system has a one-size approach and that is a problem. Also as their focus is on schools, rather than where it should be on students, things like Vo-tech fall by the wayside. Good Vo-tech programs might not garner the desired accolades from educrats. WSCA has been saying that one size fits all does not work and believes in focusing on student needs.
You may find this white paper from a Task Force of HS students in MI responding to Michigan's increased graduation standards interesting:
http://www.maeo.org/PDF%20files/youthpositionpaper.pdf
white paper?
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 12:19 — SDR256White paper?
Are you a racist?
:P
Sorry, couldn't resist.
LOL
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 12:55 — TrailerParkGirlJust remember only white papers, black papers and green papers count. People need to stop hiding behind their blue papers.
I did find it interesting that a group of HS students seemed to have more common sense than adult policy makers.
Hair of the dog
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 13:27 — Dadof3That's nothing a few college courses in "social theory" won't fix. They have 'em as confused as useri++ is no time.
Horace Tart can say vo-tech
Tue, 09/01/2009 - 08:26 — g88ky07but apparently that's about all he can do with it. In 4 years has one been built, added to or changed over, let me get this one,
NOPE!
Horace will once again prove tonight why his "brand" of school board NON-leadership must end October 6th. His "status quo" responses and same ole same ole will once again be all he has left!