WakeEd

The WakeEd blog is devoted to discussing and answering questions about the major issues facing the Wake County school system. How much will the new Democratic majority on the school board do to undo the changes made by Republicans since 2009? Will the new student assignment plan be a hybrid of the last two models or primarily be a return to the use of busing for diversity? Who will replace Tony Tata as the new superintendent of the state's largest district? How will voters react to a likely request in 2013 to borrow potentially more than $1 billion to build and renovate schools?

WakeEd is maintained by The News & Observer's Wake schools reporter, T. Keung Hui. While Keung posts information and analysis on the issues, keep us posted on your suggestions, questions, tips and what you're doing to cope with the changes in Wake's schools.

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Margiotta clarifies position on splitting up the school district

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Ron Margiotta is finding out the hard way that every word he says in public will be closely scrutinized now that he's chairman of the Wake County school board.

As noted in today's article, Margiotta is clarifying the remarks he made at Thursday's Northern Wake Republican Club meeting about his support for slitting up the school district. He's already had to defend the "here come the animals out of the cages" remark that he had said in passing at the last school board meeting.

In the past, Margiotta didn't have people tracking his every word when he was the lone member of the board minority. But now people are following him around to hear what he says, including Thursday night's GOP meeting.

"There’s a big difference between thinking in what goes on in Zebulon and what goes on at the southwestern part of Cary – big difference,” Margiotta said at the Thursday meeting, which was videotaped by WRAL. “They should have their own school districts or at least the assignment zones and have a certain amount of autonomy.”

His remarks led people to wonder if dissolution of the district was something that Margiotta might try to implement.

But Marigotta said Friday he was only giving his personal opinion in favor of breaking up the district, something he's long supported. But he said he's not pushing to do so because he doesn't think the General Assembly would support the change.

"It's something that's never going to happen," Margiotta said of breaking up the district. "It would never be approved by the State of North Carolina."

Even if Margiotta asked the board to support it, board member John Tedesco said he'd never support a breakup. He noted that with the current 5-4 balance, it would never go anywhere unless he supported deconsolidation.

Tedesco said breaking up Wake would significantly increase costs for taxpayers and, based on the use of municipal resources, lead to financial and academic inequities among the different districts.

But Tedesco was quick to add that the issue of breaking up the district has never been discussed by members of the board majority.

Tedesco, Margiotta and other members of the board majority are instead focusing on passing the community-based school assignment resolution.

Tedesco said the new zones would provide more flexibility, more stability for families and more efficient use of resources to provide an equitable education around the county. For instance, he said that some schools could open for class while others are closed during inclement weather.

“I truly believe the merger 30 years ago was the right thing to do,” Tedesco said. “It will allow us to have these zones.”

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ot-innovation

SELMA, N.C. -
Carol Whitmire and her family live in Clayton. But when it was time for her son to start kindergarten last year, she signed him up at Selma Elementary School. It's the only school in Johnston County that offers a dual language program. Students study all their subjects in English one day and in Spanish the next.

"We just wanted to give him as many opportunities later in life as he can have. And obviously learning a second language will really benefit him later in life," Whitmire said.

Nine elementary schools in North Carolina offer the dual language program. Some of the students in the classes are native English speakers. Others are native Spanish speakers. The goal is that they will all be fluent in both languages by the end of elementary school.

But when Melissa Hubbard started teaching the English classes at Selma Elementary, she had some doubts.

"I was worried about... would they master the English curriculum? Because with every other first grader they have 180 days, with this program they only have half the time," she said.

But all the students are on grade level, Hubbard said. Many read English and Spanish above grade level.

"They're the only ones who have four teachers," she said. "It's something different in each class. What they do over here, we don't do over there. So every day they're getting something different."

Whitmire says her son loves the program.

"Learning a second language, he doesn't even realize he is doing it. It's just second nature to them," she said.

She plans to send her two younger children to Selma Elementary when they get older.

About 110 students are in Selma Elementary School's dual language program. And the school adds two kindergarten classes each year. The students will go into all English classes in middle school unless Selma Middle School hires a Spanish teacher

AP courses not always available

Appreciate Jennifer's work in gathering AP information. Just want to add that most of the high schools list AP courses that are rarely or never offered. I think it has something to do with appearing "better" in the eyes of colleges. This concerns me because it kind of makes my kids looks like slackers on college apps for not taking these phantom classes. (Colleges look at which classes a student takes, compared to what was available, or what they think is available).

I would be surprised if Wakefield actually conducts all of the AP classes listed as available. Also, for those of you not that familiar with the high schools, the schools often do not try to prevent common scheduling conflicts. For example, AP Calculus and AP Physics might be offered at the same time, even though most of the interested students want to take both of those classes.

I noticed that Fairfax, VA

I noticed that Fairfax, VA offers their AP courses online for students in schools with too few students enrolled.  I thought I remembered that they also offer AP course in the summer too.  They list 33 AP course available.

...http://www.fcps.edu/DIS/gt/pdfs/ap/AP%20Courses%202009-10.pdf

OT- BOE and Wake County Commission

The monthly meeting meeting between the BOE and the CC has been cancelled for this Wednesday.

 In looking at the BOE schedule for 2010, these bodies have not yet met once this year, even though the leaders and votes are all on the same team.

Why not?

Please explain - thanks

What do you mean by "leaders and votes are all on the same team"?

Roughly that Ron  leads the

Roughly that Ron  leads the BOE  gang of 5  and Tony G leads the CC,  most /many of whom strongly supporting public education.   If   Tony is willing to step up along with the others who do  on the CC , in cconcert with the new BOE majority,  there is a "perfect storm " for these groups to fund what is best for our students.

My question is , "Why are not choosing to meet ?"

Thanks...

I was confused because it sounded like you meant that Tony  Gurley's "team" was in control of the County Commissioners. That's certainly not the case.

OT- Apex High AP courses

In yesterday's paper, an article focused on crowded classrooms and decisions principals have to make with cutbacks. According to Principal Wight, he had to cut AP Biology and AP Physics b/c he couldn't justify these offerings with only 15 or so students , like he could in a normal year.

Is anyone else flabbergasted that a school such as Apex (2400 students) with an 8% FRL rate- does not have at least 30 students enrolled who could take these courses?

same situation at MHS

I was also shocked to read about the cuts in AP classes at Apex. Same situation at MHS re the cuts.   IMO, the 4x4 block is the worst possible schedule for AP classes and foreign language. Can see why a lot of kids don't bother with them.

Shank, thanks for pointing

Shank, thanks for pointing out the article.  There are plenty of extremely bright students that can't get the classes they need, are ready to take, sign up for, etc. because they (Del) cut teachers and lost classes.  Last year PCHS cut 8 teachers and 48 sections were not taught.   I'm glad to see this round of cuts will hit central services rather than the classroom.  Mr. Neter still projects huge hole for this year and next in loss of funding.   Even if Del remained at the helm and the previous board had all been reelected our student performance is going to drop significantly due to the impact of larger class sizes and cuts in programs and classes. 

Funding

Where you and I differ in our opinions-   IMO, Del is not to blame- it's a function of the economy, state and local funding. 

In regards to AP's at Apex, the economy and canceling courses  is not what  stands out to me-   many of  you have a different take since my post.  

My assumption has been that Apex HS was among the best academically due to demographics.   Until recently there have been many complaints on this blog about the lack of challenging courses (AP) outside of the magnets, adn we have recently heard and read that this is not true (excluding Enloe and Knighdale).

My surprise is that these courses are offered at Apex, and there is not more of a demand, based on the school demographic, county demograpghic (most educated citizenry.)

 Look at E&R  on WCPSS, reports by date and look at the August 2009  AP test results report, page 5. 

Green Hope HS had 483 students taking 1138 AP tests.  Apex had 262 students taking 461 AP tests.  

 You can look for yourself at the report.  It is interesting to see the numbers from all schools.   (The numbers above are not those enrolled in the courses- but those who chose to pay for, and take , the exam. )

 

IMO Del was Supt. and

IMO Del was Supt. and ultimately the decision for cuts and guidance for those cuts rested with him.  I don't blame him for anything but I do hold him responsible/accountable.  In a time where HS performance is crucial (dropouts/college prep/graduation rate issues) I think ANY cuts at the HS level erodes end performance results for students and school system.  Obama's stimulus money was supposed to be a stop-gap tool and in my opinion it should have been used to fund teachers not math mentors.  WCPSS didn't want to use money that they couldn't count on to be there in subsequent years, I would have used the money for the purpose intended and made staffing cuts down the road if it came to that.  (It would have bought 2 more years of HS performance levels and who knows what the future holds.)  Look at the auto industry for example.  First they were going to sell all kinds of dealerships, then Toyota had issues, and now GM is in a different situation.   WCPSS and Area Supts. should concentrate more time to HS environments and perhaps we would see more improvement there.   As far as demand for AP courses, keep in mind that the staff instructs students and parents not to double up (block schedule) on courses that you need to take as prereqs. for some of the AP courses.  At PCHS most if not all of the AP courses were completely full.  (I can't believe that Apex cut AP Biology) but these are Principal-made decisions.   What college wouldn't like/expect to see AP Bio or AP Chem?

"Is anyone else

"Is anyone else flabbergasted that a school such as Apex (2400 students) with an 8% FRL rate- does not have at least 30 students enrolled who could take these courses?”

Btw ... welcome Apex to the real world ... now maybe since this problem has affected a "good" school it will get some attention. 

My suggestion is "follow the money" ... teaching high end classes is difficult and expensive - scheduling, recruiting / training teachers, preparing students, engaging parents ... if the "system" can minimize these kinds of classes it can minimize the cost.  It is all about money and how to survive on $1/day....  there is no reward for the "system" to have higher advanced class enrollment ... these classes create “problems” - classes that are not filled to capacity and under utilized teachers (<30/class)  ....  Again, the school "system" is built on putting out the legal minimal product (barely literate) at the lowest possible cost... 

 

I use “system” because it in no ones fault … taxpayers, BOE, principals, counselors, teachers, students, parents ….  Everyone (the “system”) is just responding to the hidden goals and incentives ….

 

I think you beat your own record

for having every other post posted on this post under your poster's name posting as often as you can to post nothing more than you usually post. 

Post it note to remind you to post more often?

Just curious

Do all AP and non-AP courses in Enloe have to have 30 students enrolled in order not to be cancelled?

Whether Enloe or elsewhere,

Whether Enloe or elsewhere, principals can combine AP with Honors or IB sections challenging the teachers to assign different work to each subgroup.   The key thing is that high school students including rising freshman select their level of difficulty and courses with parental sign off in the spring to guide administrators in their course allocations both type and levels for the following calendar year.

Parents sign off in the

Parents sign off in the spring on the course requests but if the administration fires the teachers over the summer and does not offer the advanced course you picked you suddenly get thrown into cooking class or some other far lower level course because there are no other choices.  Your initial selection does not always wind up being the course provided.

There are no doubt some

There are no doubt some cases where selected courses can't be placed.    But it is not for lack of trying.    Take your example.   

First, it isn't impacting core classes, not at the high school level.  You can't substitute a cooking elective for a math class. They'll make a change immediately to insure your child has their core classes.

Also, each child submits alternates for electives.   Schools try to place one of the alternates if not the first choice.   But sometimes, an AP or Honors core class is only offered opposite a preferred elective.  Typically, if there is an option within a given class period, a given school will work with you to revise the schedule if space even remotely permits.

Well, Pre-calc was denied

Well, Pre-calc was denied and had to substitute a foreign language...because the HS cut math teachers.  The science class wasn't offered and we wound up taking sociology instead.  The block schedule allows you time to double up on courses but the better courses are being dropped by the school in lieu of easier courses for the masses.   (Tried to double up on math and science)  I think in our schools case space doesn't even remotely permit, about 2200 students. 

How did you fulfill the 4

How did you fulfill the 4 years of math requirement then?

Took Algebra 2 first

Took Algebra 2 first semester (we are block scheduled).  We will give up ever taking AP Stats.  Will take Precalc as a Jr. and Calc AB/BC as Sr if the school still offers it.   Would have liked to have no gap in math but no-can-do under current system of no doubling up on math courses.   I don't suffer from "magnet envy"  but I would like to see more math/science offerings available at non-magnet HS.  I think much of the current mayhem we see at BOE mtgs. could be solved without dissolving magnets but cutting back a little from magnets and offering up some better substantial courses to non-magnet schools.     

If the magnets are not

Does block scheduling for you mean 4 year long equivalent classes 1st semester and 4 x 2nd semester?

If the magnets are not helping test scores, there is some merit to considering merit or lottery based high schools dedicated to AG kids as well although to concentrate some of the brightest away from regular schools is not ideal either.

Red_balloon was kind enough to provide some insights there.

We take 4 90-min. classes

We take 4 90-min. classes the first half of the year and 4-different 90 min. classes the 2nd half.  I have been considering the ramifications of merit-based lottery for HS and I do think it would present some problems which I why I favor expanding some of the magnet courses to other HS rather than draining students from HS. 

Solved? What you see at BOE

Solved? What you see at BOE meetings is mostly the Enloe parade. Can you imagine the shrieks of horror ensuing from a more equitable allocation of resources? They will make you walk the plank. But, hey, in all fairness, it is their 'love' for diversity that drives them so.

According  to the article,

According  to the article, this was the principal's choice at Apex, in having to deal with budget cutbacks.   Don't know about Enloe or any other school.  (Apex may  still have courses with limited enrollment , but principal chose not to cut)

I think cancelling the class

I think cancelling the class is a local principal decision ... so at Enloe, the kids come the long distance and fight off the crime to take those AP classes ... it could be the parents at Apex are not real demanding and will take whatever is given as long as it is not less than Green Hope and the  Apex principal may needs more directed to football or band so that is how he allocate his meager resources out.

"the kids come the long

"the kids come the long distance and fight off the crime to take those AP classes"

Give me a freaking break user!  I speechless, actually.  I don't even know how to respond to that comment.

Remember the burning issues

Remember the burning issues for many here are:

  • I do not want a makeup day on Saturday
  • I want to get out early for summer vacation
  • I don’t want to move around due to growth
  • I don’t want someone else’s poor kids in my school
  • I want a traditional schedule
  • I want to go to school in my neighborhood.

 

Sacrificing for academic excellence is not what most Wake parents are about unless you homeschool or go private.  The key concerns for Wake parents are convenience.

 

Enloe is high performance – kids, staff, administration … they put up with having to travel to the other side of town and risk being mugged each day to push themselves. 

 

Many in other schools mostly want stability, lower childcare costs, and maximize convenience and do not pursue academic excellence.

Are you kidding me???

I can't even get my kids into Enloe.  Are you sure parents in kids stuck in base schools did not even try to apply to the amazing magnet schools?  We were discriminated against, not because we didn't apply and appeal umpteenth times.

See mom, I think you have

See mom, I think you have the wrong view ... instead of seeing Enloe as the goal that you can not get into and being angry wanting to  destroyed the school and distribute the resources ... your focus should be on the BOE and asking why this is a zero sum game and why Knightdale can not be pushed to get to Enloe's level ... what I see is that WCPSS gets one school over the line like the magnets, Enloe, Broughton, etc. and some other group gets jealous and wants it dismantled … “you are better than me, so I need to destroy you” … really, we should be pushing to get everyone over the line – one school at a time it necessary … the fact that many feel that they can only get something for their school by destroying another schools shows a concentration camp mentality facilitated by the BOE where the funds are so meager that only way to survive is to kill someone else … we do not need to live like that … we accept that fate but do not have to …

WCPSS would be looking out for all AG kids

Not just the AG kids in AG Basics Schools.  Bring the level of AG education for all base schools to those at AG Magnets schools, that's all parents with AG kids are asking.  These are the kids who will solve the world's problems, find a cure for cancer, etc.etc.

Is there sufficient numbers

Is there sufficient numbers of AG kids across all of the potential zones and schools to justify the expense associated with having every middle or high school be comparable for AG kids?   Or would it make more sense financially to concentrate AG kids and the classes they need at a few schools tailored to them?

I agree 100% that AG

I agree 100% that AG education needs to be bumped at EL and MS.    YOur kid can get what they deserve if you stay on top and advocate.  If you leave it all up to the teacher and do not ask how the compacting  or acceleration is being done and ask to see the what's and how's,   you will be disappointed.

 

You will have a fight on

You will have a fight on your hands, user if you suggest bringing other high schools up to (or even CLOSE) to  Enloe's level.  The success of all magnets depends on keeping all of the other schools at a lower level.   

Isn't Wakefield pretty

Isn't Wakefield pretty comparable?

I can't keep up with the

I can't keep up with the responses sometimes--is this to me?  Is Wakefield comparable to what?  Wakefield Elem, Middle or High?

Sorry -- am tired today.

Sorry -- am tired today. Daylight savings is at first unkind.
Is Wakefield High School somewhat comparable to Enloe?  Alternatively, what would be the highest rated non-magnet high school  (Green Hope perhaps) and how does it compare to the magnet high schools including Enloe?

Honestly, I don't know.  My

Honestly, I don't know.  My oldest is only in 6th grade so I'm not versed in the high schools yet.  I do know that Wakefield has the highest number of AP courses of all the non-magnet HS.  They also have a wide variety of CTE courses. (vo-tech) 

I think that the difference might be in the variety of electives that are offered at Enloe (languages, history, english, dance, etc.) compared to the non-magnets.  I suppose it depends on what you're seeking in a school.  Having been a history major at a liberal arts college, I would have loved the history & english electives at  Enloe but having access to 25 (26?) AP courses at Wakefield might be more than satisfactory to others.

 

 

A couple of other differences - Dove

There is extreme overcrowding at WHS. They even had to split campuses with the addition of a ninth grade center at an old Win-Dixie in Wake Forest which was shortly augmented with a parking lot of modular classrooms. That is being addressed now.

Also, the Enloe school has stability in assignments.

Is the overcrowding and/or

Is the overcrowding and/or stabiity issue at WHS the result of diversity assignment or growth in the US1/US401/Wake Forest area?

Aren't they opening (or just opened) a new high school with (delayed) plans for another in a couple of years?

It's a combination of the two

As I said, the issue is being addressed. I just wanted to point out the difference between Enloe  & WHS.  When the crowding is reduced, so may the AP opportunities. I don't know, just a guess.

Dan, I really don't have a problem with economic diversity busing in the MS & HS, only Elementary Schools.

Enloe is at capacity in part

Enloe is at capacity in part because a couple of years ago the day was shifted to 9 periods long plus home room with each student enrolled in 8 out of the 9 periods.   Period 0 starts at 6:32 according to the website.   

 

"I really don't have a

"I really don't have a problem with economic diversity busing in the MS
& HS, only Elementary Schools."

That's interesting.  I don't really have a problem with it either way,  but if I were going to have an issue I'd be the exact opposite of you.

 In high school, I think it's much more important to be closer to home.  There are more after school extracurricular activities, the community support for athletic teams, drama programs, etc., is good to have close by as well.

 Plus, by that time the kids have basically separated themselves, anyway, because they change classes.  Some are in AP, some are college prep, some are just trying to graduate, and others are dropping out.

Interesting viewpoint.  I

Interesting viewpoint.  I think that its more important to be closer to your home community when the kids are younger.  Younger kids want that security of knowing their community--they generally want a smaller world around them.  Once kids get in HS, they want to be free--they don't want to feel penned in. 

I do agree that if a HS student is involved in a lot of after school activities, then being assigned far from home is not good.  I think its one thing to choose a magnet far from home and another thing entirely to be assigned 17 miles from home against your desires.  (thinking of the Wake Forest to Knightdale teens)

I have a second grader who's

I have a second grader who's the exact opposite. When my husband and I were watching the school board meeting online a few weeks ago, he asked what they were talking about. Not wanting to get into the details, we basically told him that some people wanted their kids to go to school with kids in their neighborhood and some wanted their kids to go to school with kids from lots of different neighborhoods. He said (and I swear), "But going to school with just kids in the neighborhood would be boring!"

How big is your neighborhood?

How big is your neighborhood? Could it fill an entire school? You might ask your son what he considers his neighborhood. Then try the same statement/explanation/question using the word community.

I'm suggesting this because our neighborhood has < 50 houses so my first grader would take it to literally mean just going to school with kids in those <50 houses.

I think it a number of situations here people have taken the term "neighborhood" schools more literally than what they generally are outside of Wake and certainly more literally than the community schools resolution and current model being discussed indicates.

Good points that I think

Good points that I think many people don't think of. 

My second grader cheered

My second grader cheered when I told him the BOE proceedings I was watching on TV might get him more challenging stuff someday.

Not as much of an issue in

Not as much of an issue in high school as they tend to drive themselves as soon as possible whenever and wherever possible. Smile

Regardless of where a child

Regardless of where a child goes to high school, the NC graduation requirements greatly limit the choices.   Each year, each child takes 8 classes.   4 of those are required coursework through a progression in English, Social Studies (History), math, and science.     The main choices here are regular, honors, AP, IB, or Honors and AP (i.e. degree of difficulty) and which order you elect (often dictated by the high school) --e.g. the year you take US History vs World History vs Civics and Economics.   Math progression is essentially decided before you ever get to high school.     In addition to the core requirements, two years of a single foreign language are required as well as Health A and Health B.     Once all the required classes are factored in, electives represent ~8 or 25% of the 32 total classes taken in high school.    Kids who participate in a band or chorus would use up one of these 8 or 9 for each year they participate.    

A principal has to first allocate resources to insure that all of the required courses are available for everyone and then look at the remaining budget and ascertain how to allocate it to cover the remaining 2 of 8 courses each year for each grade. 

If students are only interested in AP Biology, AP Chemistry, and AP Environmental Science with little interest in AP Physics but a lot of interest in Honors and standard Physics, then the administrator may elect to drop AP Physics to staff more sections of AP Biology or more of the Physics sections in demand.   Another way to conserve resource is that AP and Honors sections are frequently tought within the same class with
differing assignments.   

No conclusions, just information sharing that high school is very different from elementary and much more scripted by the state.  

 

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About the blogger

T. Keung Hui covers Wake schools.
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