WakeEd

The WakeEd blog is devoted to discussing and answering questions about the major issues facing the Wake County school system. How much will the new Democratic majority on the school board do to undo the changes made by Republicans since 2009? Will the new student assignment plan be a hybrid of the last two models or primarily be a return to the use of busing for diversity? Who will replace Tony Tata as the new superintendent of the state's largest district? How will voters react to a likely request in 2013 to borrow potentially more than $1 billion to build and renovate schools?

WakeEd is maintained by The News & Observer's Wake schools reporter, T. Keung Hui. While Keung posts information and analysis on the issues, keep us posted on your suggestions, questions, tips and what you're doing to cope with the changes in Wake's schools.

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Magnet Schools of America concerned about future of Wake's magnet program

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Magnet Schools of America is raising concerns about Superintendent Del Burns' resignation and the future of Wake County's magnet program and the diversity policy under the new school board majority.

In a letter sent last week to school board chairman Ron Margiotta, MSA Executive Director Robert Brooks said he's "deeply concerned" that Burns is resigning in response to the board "embracing a 'neighborhood schools' model as opposed to the diversified magnet schools that have flourished in your district." Brooks asked Margiotta to reconsider the board's proposed plans.

"Instead of eliminating the district’s socio-economic diversity plan and the Magnet schools and programs supported by that plan, we urge the board to embrace them and we offer our assistance to the board to develop a plan that is in the best interests of the students and parents," Brooks writes.

Brooks also argues against using student admissions test scores to fill magnet seats. He says that magnets have played a prominent role in desegregating schools.

School board member John Tedesco and some parents have proposed using merit-based admissions for some magnet programs.

(MSA officials say they haven't gotten back a response to their letter.)

The future of the magnet program under community-school based assignment is one the big unanswered questions facing the new board majority. It looks like the new resolution would lead to more magnet schools being spread around the county with some current magnet schools losing their programs.

It's why the Wake Education Partnership released a white paper this week on the magnet program.

Magnet Schools of America is a trade organization that represents around 2,000 magnet schools nationwide.

Wake has historically done well in MSA's awards program. The group handed out awards to 14 Wake magnet schools this year.

Caroline Massengill, Wake's former magnet director, is past president of Magnet Schools of America. Massengill is one of the speakers at the March 20 forum sponsored by the Great Schools in Wake Coaltion.

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it aint the kids

Instead of trying to figure out which kids can learn, we need to start trying to figure out how to teach.
When we try to figure out which kids can learn it is always rich white kids. Look at history. They are who have learned in the past.

We can teach anyone we want, and that is what this is about.

Who do we want to teach?

AG aint real. Sorry

AG aint real. Sorry folks.

We need quality instruction and everyone benefits from it. Title 1 is going to change. Forget about gifted. It is on the way out.

Did they have it when you were a kid? Do the private schools have it?

Do school systems honor each other's definitions?

What does research say?

Do businesses hire gifted people (they'd run like the wind from those who demand special treatment and more resources).

Klanders - You really need to take a breath

First off, you presented me with a few areas of thought about AG. The facts you presented that had a lot of merit is the way testing is scored. If what you say is correct, I would agree that we need to look at how we identify AG students. BUT you destroy your credibility when you deny AG doesn't exist. I grew up in a small town, my classmates were pretty much with me for most of my ES-HS. We were ability grouped and I was in the advanced class. We had AG students in my group. There were 5 children who were obviously academically above the rest. Two of those were genius level. As we went through school our teachers did their best to help those children, all but one became doctors. The one that didn't was the smartest one of all, he dropped out of college and went on to a life of ruin. A similar thing happened to a student one grade up. The common thread was those kids had it so easy in high school that when they got to college, they couldn't handle it. So how do you explain that? Did the school system do these kids justice? Do you think these children could of been extremely productive citizens if the school challenged them more? Were the rest of us in that class just as capable? I answer the last NO, NO, NO!

There are AG students, there are geniuses, and there are imbeciles...just like some people are gifted with artistic talent, athletic talent, and social talent.  But only the true  Academically Gifted are harmed if they are not challenged in school. I do believe you are correct that all children should be challenged, but I believe that is impossible with the current system we use. Without ability grouping it is extremely difficult when you put students of very diverse academic ability in a classroom. That is harmful to the class at a whole. Maybe we have a few teachers that can do a decent job with this, but most can't...you and I know that. Add behavioural, disciplinary, and parental support problems to the mix, we have a more difficult problem. We need to get over the fact that all students can be taught and treated the same expecting the same results.

I think you need to look past seeing just good in all children and see how we can best meet their needs to develop them to their full capability.

AG

I am in my late fifties and grew up in a small university town in the northeast.  We did not have AG.  Yet I feel that we were well-prepared for college.  In my relatively small (about 80 students) grade school class, we had several people who attended Ivy League schools and three or four of us have earned PhDs.  I feel that I was challenged in both grade school and high school. 

In my opinion, the answer is to improve the WCPSS curriculum for all of the students.  We had five years of foreign language instruction in grade school (grades 4-8) and everyone took it.  We did not have ability grouping (except probably in first grade reading) but, instead, were all exposed to challenging material.  In seventh grade, we all took a math class that included a lot of algebra concepts.  I don't think ability grouping is necessary to ensure that students succeed.  The rare student who is truly gifted (there was one in my high school class who went to Harvard after her sophomore year) may need an extraordinary program.  Certainly high school students should have the opportunity to take additional classes in areas in which they excel.  (I find it inconceivable that some high schools are apparently limiting the number of math classes students can take.  If we want to improve our schools, that's a good place to start.)  I'd rather see us improve the course content than try to determine who will get the challenging curriculum when the kids are eight years old. 

 

Your first paragraph makes

Your first paragraph makes it sound like ability grouping doesn't work either.

By the time a kid gets to high school (at least) they are pretty much ability grouped.  They don't put certain kids into AP courses just to make a number, do they? 

How early in ES would you suggest labeling one set of kids as clearly more capable than the other?  How soon is OK to give up on a kid?  How soon is OK to have a kid think he or she is better than their peers?

The parental, behavior, and disciplinary problems are not limited to the ED kids.  You seem to think they are.  Whenever you talk about ED kids, you always mention these problems like they are exclusive to the ED kids.

Our school had two kids who were obviously academically above the rest.  There were three, but one went to the school of science and math.  It wasn't because they were that much smarter than us, they just had better study habits.  I was in enrichment, AG, AP, the whole shebang, and I was about as lazy a student as you could be in those classes.  I still finished 17th in my class, made National Honor Society and I was a NC Scholar. If I'd had the drive to study that they had, I'd have been ranked right with them.  I didn't. 

Did your school have AP classes available?  If not, then your comparison is inherently flawed.  WCPSS has AP classes....if they are so easy that kids aren't challenged, those kids are probably going to be OK in college.  Most people who go to college and don't finish have other problems that aren't a result of not being 'challenged' in HS.  They start drinking (or worse), they party too much, they take advantage of the fact that attendance isn't taken, etc.  That is sometimes a sign that their life was too sheltered, not that their school wasn't challenging enough.

Dropping out of college doesn't equal a life of ruin....he had to do more than that to ruin his life.

 

 

Huh??

You need to read up more on AG issues so you won't sound so ignorant.

interesting financial data

For 2009, WCPSS spent about $1bn on current operations. This was funded largely by the County ($309m) and State ($721m). Compare that to the Fed's MSA funding: a whopping $3.2m.

So, when people say WCPSS would lose magnet funding on account of dropping SES diversity, are they talking about losing ~$3m out of a total operations expenditure of ~$1000m? I cannot believe that anyone would put forth such an absurd statistic as an argument to pander to MSA.

hip hip hooray!!

School board member John Tedesco and some parents have proposed using merit-based admissions for some magnet programs.

Terrific! I am glad at least one BOE member is seized of the importance of ensuring merit based selection to magnet programs. 

Thank you JT

Exceptionally AG kids would not be left out of magnet schools because of where they live.  Except that now they would have to figure out how to separate the "over-achievers" from the truly gifted.

Is there an example

Is there an example elsewhere of what the criteria would be for merit-based admissions?

Right now, people complain because an allegedly disproportionate number of people from certain areas/groups/whatever get in, and too many others are left out.

If you go merit-based, who determines the criteria?  With so many schools, how do you determine which kids are "more qualified"?  It seems like that could be just as much (or more) of a nightmare.

They could do this the way

They could do this the way they do the math placement. I think they got it to be merit based. You need 2 examples of work, profile cards, teacher recommendations, high EOG scores, and someone to recognize you. And it is optional and there is no monitoring and no records kept.

 Maybe we need a better way to decide who gets the quality resources. It should be based on merit, I agree. How do we decide who merits the quality educations? I sure hope my kid is included in the group with the qualifies for and merits good instruction. 

Yes, Walt Whitman High

Yes, Walt Whitman High School.  Richard Kahlenberg's kids go there, you can ask him more about this school while he is down here holding his forum on forced busing.

I'm not exactly sure what

I'm not exactly sure what you're telling me that school proves...could you elaborate?

Based on this...

http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/regulatoryaccountability/glance/currentyear/schools/04427.pdf

there still seems to be a significant achievement gap.  I assume FARMS is their terminology for F&R, and 50% of those complete Algebra in 9th grade vs. 83.7% of all students.  20% completed Geometry in 9th grade, vs. 55% of all students.  30% were enrolled in Honors/AP courses vs. 84.9% of all students.

The numbers for African-American students aren't much better than those for FARMS, so those populations probably overlap.  

Is that the type of service we can expect for those students going forward in WCPSS?

"Is that the type of service

"Is that the type of service we can expect for those students going forward in WCPSS?"

I hope not.  I just find it interesting that Richard Kahlenberg is coming down here (again) to preach forced busing and the importance of diversity when he chooses to send his own kids to an un-diverse school in which there is a huge achievement gap.  Whitman is an application school, and there are plenty of more diverse schools in Montgomery County.

Since you know so much,

Since you know so much, where did his kids go to ES and MS?

By the time kids are in HS, they need to go where they are the most challenged (or where they can graduate, depending on their perspective).

 

Dan - Does Reality Hurt? More about Richard Kahlenberg's School

This is a repost from the last time he was here, the ES & MS in that area have similar socio-economic makeup. I cannot guarantee where his kids went so I can only make an educated guess. The following items are accurate and based on my detective work:

It took me a little will to Google this, and it's nowhere in his resume. But I think we should all know. His oldest daughter Cindy goes to Dartmouth and she was the key to finding this out."

"Of course he loves public schools and wants to make OURS better. Wonder why he picked to live where he lives? I am sure if they bused inner city Washington DC students in to get that F&R amount from 0 to 40% he would send his kids there...and I got some great land in Florida.

Statistics for Walt Whitman School, where his daughter attends:

94% of the seniors attend 4-year colleges.
9% attend 2-year colleges.
More than 72% attend college out-of-state.
Students come from more than 40 countries.
Whitman's average SAT score for the 2006-07 school year was 1880, highest in the Montgomery county public school system
In 2008, Newsweek ranked Whitman at number 69 on its "Best High Schools in America" list.[1]
In 2009, US News & World Report ranked Whitman as the #44 best school nationwide on its list of "America's Best High Schools"[2]
The class of 2008 included 12 National Merit Semi-Finalists and 13 Maryland Distinguished Scholar Finalists. Gives a lot of work on students.

----------------------

AND HE SITS AS AN EXPERT ON WHAT'S BEST IN WAKE COUNTY, BUT WOULD NEVER LIVE IT HIMSELF.  ISN'T THAT SPECIAL.

--------------------------

HEY DAN, LISTEN TO WHAT A PARENT IN HIS DISTRICT SAID ON A BLOG ANSWERING A CONCERN ABOUT DIVERSITY OF ANOTHER PARENT LOOKING TO MOVE THERE:

"Regarding the diversity issue, parents move to this school district to avoid diversity. Diversity is a great thing when you choose when to engage it - but the demographics of this school district are self selecting and allow for a very safe, non-disruptive, and self-selecting group of families to give kids a great public school education that rivals many top private schools. Plus, there is plenty of diversity with the kids from Embassy parents. It may not be the type that the reviewer below is looking for but is much richer from a cultural and global perspective than what the politically correct contingent is looking for which this school is not looking to foster. "

BTW- I believe those numbers you quoted above make a great case against diversity busing.  FARMS is Free and Reduced Meal Students.

Oh one other bit of info:

One other little statistic of note. The following are the demographics for Montgomery County Schools overall:

African American: 22.9%
American Indian: 0.3%
Asian American: 15.2%
Hispanic: 21.5%
White: 40.1%
FRL:25.8%
Note the 40% for whites. Then refer back to the above post with the demographics for Kahlenberg daughter's school: 76% white, 4.5% African American, 7% Hispanic, and 12.5 Asian American. Also the description of the school population says that 80% of the parents are college graduates, mainly professional and managerial. Poverty level for school is not listed but I suspect it is well above the system wide 25.8%.

Well Joe Maybe He Has A Valid Personal

reason.  Like you.

This time we will be armed (Note for Dove below)

When Richard Kahlenberg came down last time I dug up the information where he sent his children and shared it with you Mudge. The school is as you say, Whitman, it is locally known as "Whiteman" because it is a public school with almost no diversity, especially economic. I wonder how the audience will feel when that fact is pointed out and the fact he lives in a very affluent area, probably because of the school. It's very highly rated.

We need to point of hypocrisy, just like the hypocrisy of Wake County Magnet parents fighting us.

Dove, FYI - I was talking about armed with information; I wouldn't want you to think I was going "Postal."

what is the hypocrisy? Are

what is the hypocrisy?

Are you talking about John T's line about "if they value diversity so much why don't they live in a diverse community like Garner?" 

Do you think that you must live in a "diverse community" (as defined by John) to also say you value diversity? 

Diversity is a Euphemism for Looting the Resources

Remember this. That is what it is now.

 Originally, the school system followed national research that said that there needs to be at most 40% low income students in the school, or there will not be enough parents with power to demand resources. This has nothing at all to do with kids. This is power politics of resources.

WCPSS Diversity Policy was to hold schools to 40% ED so that all schools had enough "not powerless" parents to demand resources.

The magnet programs were to attract high income kids to schools to balance this. To attract them, they provided enticements. They enticed them with very high quality resources.

This snowballed and took on a life of its own. They thrived on these high quality resources. (High quality resources created successful students.)

Some magnets were for "gifted" kids. The results of the high quality resources became a "magnet" for the elite. They all wanted their kids labeled "gifted."

"Gifted" is subjective. They use measurement things, but it is entirely subjective and you can bully your way to get your kid labeled. And you can bully your way to the resources.

 Now, we have the elite taking all the resources in as many schools as they can.

It wasn't intended to be this way. It just got out of control.

The Effectiveness Index smoothes it all over and makes it look okay. It adjusts expectations based on AG, income, & low income, etc. It makes it look like all is well. 

Klanders what about NCLB

How would a school system afford to ignore LI schools since they are the only ones really looked at under NCLB. There are significant penalties for letting these schools fail. Busing has been used to prop up these schools, not the students..

NCLB is the safety net.

Significant penalities

You are right. There have been very significant penalties. If a low income school fails to make AYP for two consecutive years, they have to take level 4 gifted low income kids and give them remedial tutoring for two years, until they have destroyed them. This is very significant. We need to avoid this at all costs.

Significance

I just want everyone to recognize the significance of your post here. Your post is short. It might be overlooked. Knowing you as a poster and the significance of what you have shared in the past, I just want everyone to read your post word for word and absorb it. You're not being glib here, your words are meant to be read literally. And they are HORRIBLE. I hope everyone is at home throwing up like I was when I first understood the significance of this. 

Update on my comment - NCLB Redo?

Maybe I am wrong. I just read this. The Obama administration seems to be going to raise standards and minimize penalties. The NEA is the driving force behind it. I think they are going to offer rewards for meeting standards.  It a carrot and no stick approach. Not sure how this makes sense.

In addition voluntary transfer and tutoring for failed schools will be eliminated. ED kids get all protections eliminated. Reading and Math criterea to be set on national standards. Hows that hope and change working for you?

Anybody who knows more, please share.

I am all for this. I haven't

I am all for this. I haven't read enough to totally understand it, but I know from 30 years in education that Title 1 is destroying the ED kids. The schools get funds to take them out of core courses and give them remedial work, so they do. They do this even if the kids are Level 4 and gifted. In some cases, they just want the money and don't care about the kids. In other cases they really think poor people must need this kind of extra help because everything communicated to educators says so (especially from marketers who sell remedial things to help these poor kids). And for the last 5-6 years, this is what WCPSS E&R has communicated.

From the little I have read on this, it looks like the Obama administration is going to try to stop motivating schools to provide remedial work to all poor kids. In fact, it looks like they are going to provide funds only if schools have a plan for bringing the poor kids up to speed with enrichment and rigorous work. This is consistent with all the national real research in education, which says that all students benefit most from high quality enriched curriculum, but poor kids benefit the most.

The "protections," as you call it, are killing the poor kids. The protections are the barriers to rigorous courses. This administration wants to eliminate them.

Everyone is so confused. We are entering a new time. I read that the Republicans are opposed to this. How strange that the Republicans are opposed to giving people access to quality education and rigorous courses so that they can boot strap up and live out the American Dream. The Democrats started this with Title 1. Ted Kennedy had to die before they could change Title 1 because it was his baby. Title 1 is a huge monster that eats the poor.

"...but I know from 30 years

"...but I know from 30 years in education that Title 1 is destroying the ED kids. The schools get funds to take them out of core courses and give them remedial work, so they do."

 I was of the understanding that the F&R status of students is confidential and that the teachers do not "officially" know who they are. I believe Holdzkom confirmed this recently. So, how do they get identified as needing remedial work?

Teachers versus schools

I've heard as well that the teachers cannot officially be told who is F & R.  However, the schools know.  (They have to know in order to run the cafeteria.)   So when the school has a program to target F & R students, they know who those students are.  Holdzhom probably said teachers don't know without noting that the schools do know. 

Klanders - have you ever

Klanders - have you ever thought of writing a paper?  I had a discussion w/ some friends this weekend, and I think they had an aha moment when I told them a little of what you have been describing.  It would help to see this all in one place - I've been following your posts here, and it's extremely enlightening to understand what is really going on.

Thank you

Thank you klanders. I know you are knowledgable and you are working bravely to educate the public. I think folks just aren't quite aware how important your observations are. 

I am a teacher. I have taken

I am a teacher.

I have taken a lot to get the kids I teach access to rigor, back when I was young. I am still doing that.

It would be a lot easier to just ditch education. But I think it is important to our country and to kids. And education is so political that anyone who could make a difference leaves. I have been driven off, yet I stay.

I am wondering whether it is worth it to stay right now. But I think education is important to our country. And it is important that we educate our best and brightest. And they might not live ITB.

I am not sure why I do this. It certainly wears me down. 

Today's paper

There's an article about this in today's N & O. It sounds as if the teachers' (NEA and AFT) unions are opposed to it.  I like the idea of being able to use tests other than just reading and math to determine student accomplishment.  They do that in Virginia, and I think it helps because they can't ignore history and science.  I have to read the proposal more carefully to see the impact on ED kids.  I agree that if it eliminates punishments for failing to teach these kids, there's a problem.

You can value diversity

But not value all types of diversity. I think it is human nature to group with people of similar backgrounds and common interests. You cannot re-program a person to do otherwise. I had the unique experience of working with people of 11 countries, all spoke English and we all shared a similar job. We often travelled together without our families. We also all got along. However when left on our own we separated in groups of people, the groupings were very predictable. The countries were all European and North American.  This is similar in schools, has anyone watched the children when they play. They group, is that wrong or is it human nature. If you take children from two extreme backgrounds, they group to those extremes, what really is learned. What is learned is not necessarily positive. Sometimes the extreme diversity fosters racism and prejudice, especially in young children. Is this what we want. As I said before, I have had to re-program my children when they started grouping races with behaviour. I had to explain to them that it was a lack of good upbringing, not race that  caused that behaviour. In the same light, my children often come to me about how certain rich kids behave; I tell them the same thing. I have met many a person that was poor with fantastic character, and many that were rich with bad characters.  I tell my children to judge people by their character and avoid those with bad character; am I predudice?

  Diversity is sometimes a two-edged sword.

 

Keep in mind that we have no

Keep in mind that we have no Diversity Policy in WCPSS. We just talk as if we do, but we don't. If you want to be mad about destroying the Diversity Policy, get mad now because it is gone. And you have been lied to. And we have segregated schools. What do you call segregated?  Right now, 14 elementary schools are more than 2/3 minority and many of these are magnet schools. 

Tell us what you call diversity and where you see it.

The problem in WCPSS has nothing to do with this undefined, non-existent thing called "diversity." The problem is too few high quality courses, lack of access to rigor for low income and minority students, and pulling low income kids from core courses to provide them with remedial work, or putting them in special "math appreciation" programs instead of math classes.

You mention "the extreme diversity." The extreme diversity practiced in wake teaches racism. I agree. But it is not lack of good upbringing. It is how the schools treat them. The schools tell the kids how to interpret the behavior. All kids misbehave. Or at least all groups have kids who misbehave. It is interpreted differently. 

Close

The hypocrisy is basically saying "Affluent Wake County children should go to school with poor Wake County children" when his own children aren't going to school with local poor children.

In other words, "I'm going to tell you what you should do, but I'm not going to do it myself."

Merit-based Admissions

Where is the money for staff going to come from? Someone will have to look at the applications and decide who will get in. Also, someone will have to hear appeals.

 

 

You'd be surprised how

You'd be surprised how poorly they keep track of applications. 

There are GOGAT and ITBS

There are GOGAT and ITBS tests used as a criteria for entering AG program in 3rd grade. Top scoring kids should be guaranteed seats in AG schools as it is done in other districts.

Usually districts use just the results of cognitive ability tests such as COGAT or NAGLIERI to determine admission.

I have no real knowledge of

I have no real knowledge of the magnet or AG programs, so if I ask a dumb question I apologize in advance.

If the AG programs went merit-only (which I don't have a problem with on the surface), but then the programs ended up leaving AG qualified minorities out because they weren't "AG enough" so to speak, what happens then?

Especially if some/most/a significant amount of those kids are being taught at schools that have high poverty levels, lots of teacher turnovers, etc...The things that have happened to schools in high poverty areas of other districts, basically.

For a merit-based system to work, you'd have to believe that every kid had an equal shot in the years leading up to those tests you mention.  Based on other districts, I am not sure that a kid at a 90% F&R school would really have the same shot as a kid at a 5% F&R school.

I think you could make a better argument for strictly merit-based magnet/AG schools under the current system, personally.

Dan I'll speak from personal knowledge

I have an Academically Gifted daughter in public school who tested in the 99th percentile in more than one area. She needs special attention because she gets quickly bored in the classroom if treated normally. Lucky she is not a troublemaker, some AG students can be. AG students have the ability to learn much quicker than normal students.  It has nothing to do with grades. In fact, some AG students don't do that well because they pay attention less because they are bored; granted they are more the exception. We have had to advocate constantly for her since the AG Coordinator has been weak or her teachers have not been trained for compacting.  So far our advocating has been successful, and she is doing well.

As far as your point of being AG enough, well since it has more to do with aptitude, screening is possible without the child having access to great classrooms of smart children. Teachers COULD be trained to identify students that exhibit the ability to learn like AG students and have those tested in third grade. You cannot be taught to be AG,you cannot work hard to be AG, it is strictly genetic. Right now, I believe WCPSS doesn't accept tests that were given elsewhere, even if they were the same test, so you have to advocate if your child is passed up. A lot of parents that have smart children, might wrongly think their child is AG.  The AG enough would have to be a score that the WCPSS agrees upon. As far as allowing low income or any other students that fall below this score, I would not recommend it because the teaching would be at a faster rate than most could keep up with. I would wholeheartedly support giving low income AG identified student priority for any AG program, especially magnet programs. I believe that population is probably the least served in the county. 

I personally think an AG magnet should only have 4th and 5th grade for elementary. That way they could serve more children. I also think there should be more screening in LI schools.

Imagine that all kids are

Imagine that all kids are like your daughter (because they are!)

 

It is strictly genetic... oh, like Hitler, and Stalin, and Ayn Rand... Sorry. I didn't see how you think before asking you to imagine that all the kids get bored out of their skulls if they get low quality teaching. 

Klanders this takes the cake for B.S.[Basically Stupid]

All kids are not alike. God didn't make us all alike. Not all kids are AG or even have the potential to be AG.

I don't know how you can distort my comment into "master race" thinking like those Socialist/Fascist animals you just mentioned with a strait face. I am not saying we need to create agroup of these kids. I am saying they need special nurturing and different methods of teaching.

I have never read such an ignorant comment before, are you sure you are a teacher? If so, please do a little more research.

If it's not genetics, what is it? I am talking about real AG students only. My son is not as gifted why is that?

Master race is how it is

Master race is how it is used and what it is doing in our educational system. The private schools don't have "gifted," because they would have to identify all kids as "gifted." It is not objective. Different school systems don't even honor each other's definitions. There was no such thing as gifted in schools until after schools were integrated and it was invented to segregate classes within schools. Do some research! You don't even know your educational history.

Klanders- I'll do some reading on what you are talking about.

You are correct in private school they don't identify gifted as such. But in the one my son goes to they test every year and classes are ability grouped by subject area. The children can move between ability groups to speed up or slow down.

That info on CogATs was worth exploring.  My degree isn't in education, but I spent years teaching/instructing in the military. I do recognize, that is quite different since the students were educated and motivated.

AG

Of course, not all children are alike.  But the AG system as used in Wake County (and other places) has a number of serious problems.  First, it assumes as you seem to, that people are "gifted" or "not gifted".  In my teaching experience, this is not correct.  Even experts in the field of gifted education (who are clearly advocates of the idea of giftedness) recognize that there are various types of giftedness.  Wake County does, at least, differentiate between giftedness in math and in reading, but those are the only two areas they consider.  Other areas of strength such as foreign languages, the arts, and science are not included.  Students who are labelled as "gifted" are given an enhanced curriculum (at least in theory); those who are labelled as "not gifted" are not, even if they have areas of great strength.

Second, the method used to determine who is gifted is not very sound.  Research has shown that mass administered IQ tests such as the CogAT used by the WCPSS have been shown to be highly unreliable.  In addition, the use of a fairly low threshhold (the 90th percentile) is at variance with most of the literature I have read.  Experts in this field seem to use cutoffs of the 97th or 98th percentile.  That is one reason why the WCPSS has so many (24%) of its students in AG.  Finally, the subjectivity of the identification process used by the WCPSS calls it into question.  Although the schools seem to tell parents that the process is objective (75th percentile on the CogAT to take the ITBS, 90th percentile on the CogAT or ITBS to be AG), in actual practice the process is apparently much more subjective.  I understand that some schools do not even test all children and that other criteria are often ultimately added to the process of identification.  I also understand that it is difficult to get a child identified if he or she enters the system after the third grade. 

Once students are identified as "gifted", the enhanced curriculum they receive helps to ensure that they flourish.  The problem is that there is no way in the WCPSS to tell if this same enhanced curriculum would allow "not gifted" students to flourish.  There is a great deal of research that indicates that it would.  (This is often referred to as the "Pygmalion effect" or the "Matthew effect" if you want to read about it.  The former refers to studies that show that teachers who are told to expect a lot from students teach in such a way that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy; even "average" students make great strides if expectations are high.  The latter refers to students who struggle early in reading.  As a result, they are frequently given less to read, not more, and fall further and further behind.)

I think this is an issue that deserves a lot more discussion and consideration.  We cannot assume that the current system is optimal.

 

I agree

Yes WCPSS sets the AG bar too low and yes, there needs to be more discussion. I also recognize that some children are gifted in only one area. I do believe WCPSS should only concentrate on Math & Reading though and should put special instruction in ES only. MS & HS can deal with them through advanced placement. This is also true in some students that show high aptitude in science and foreign language.  This is why I like the idea of a ES Magnet  for AG 4-5 graders.

While I also agree, the enhanced curriculum might help other students, I believe it is essential especially for the high 97-99 percentile CogAT students. It would be nice to offer it to everyone, but the school system has an obligation to provide it to identified AG students (at least on paper).

There is no "them." The

There is no "them." The teachers make AG kids. We need good teachers, not "gifted children." We need to offer everyone a good education.

"Too Low"

I don't know about too low -- I think the bar is set in the wrong direction. I was shocked, for example, to discover that once you get out of the 3rd grade, your scores on EOG tests are one of the things considered in whether you're considered to be AG.  That's not what the test is designed for, yet it's used anyway.

 

There are no tests designed

There are no tests designed to measure whose brains learn better than other people's. We used to think that and many were designed for such things. We had "aptitude" tests. 

Now, we have data and research and have learned there is no such thing as aptitude. NCLB made states quit saying they were measuring it. SAT had to change and measure actual learning.

Some people are grasping at straws and hoping to keep the system alive where some people have better brains and we can measure that. Those tests are going away. Use any test you want, since the whole concept has been shown to not be valid.

Heck, we don't even recognize talent when it stands before us, let alone be able to test for it. As part of the mindset trying to pin down whether talent is a real thing, Washington Post had Joshua Bell play in the subway in DC. People threw him quarters. After a couple hours, he said he was happy when someone paused and glanced and threw a quarter.

EOG is fine because the gifted thing is entirely made up and we can't measure it. So, lets pretend with whatever tests we want. 

Are you sure?

Are you sure about that?  How does it work?  I thought that once you were AG, you were always AG and that good EOG scores could not get you considered for AG.  We were told explicitly that EOG scores had no impact on AG status but that was some years ago. 

What do you mean by the wrong direction?

So

Yes.  I'm sure.  In the 3rd grade, every student is given the CogAt and then, if they score high enough, they're given the ITBS.  Based on that score, the student may be AG.

In 4th or 5th grade, a parent can nominate a child to be retested.  The school then looks at the child's performance including, among other things, their EOG test results to decide whether or not to retest the child.

By "Wrong direction," I meant that they're measuring the wrong things -- you should measure ability, not what a student has learned.  So, for example, the fact that a 3rd grader didn't memorize their 7 times tables shouldn't knock them out from being AG. 

I believe it's also possible for a student who's been classified as having a strong need for intervention to be reduced back to having a moderate need.

 

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About the blogger

T. Keung Hui covers Wake schools.
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