It looks like magnet schools won't lose much if anything by the time a new equity and equality policy is developed by the school board.
The board is trying to develop a policy that would help provide "equal access to programs and services and equitable distribution of resources." But during Tuesday's work session discussion, board members stressed that they wanted to protect magnet schools in the new policy.
"if we don't have some differences, we undermine why you'd leave Apex to go to Enloe," said school board member Beverley Clark.
Clark said that treating everyone equally doesn't promote equity.
School board member Lori Millberg agreed that magnet schools should continue offering unique programs. She said magnet schools provide equality because all students can apply to attend them.
Asst. Supt. Chuck Dulaney added that Wake's weighted selection process for filling magnet schools promotes equity across the district. He said randomly filling seats would result in disparities at schools.
Click here for last year's magnet selection criteria. In theory, priority goes to applicants from overcrowded schools in affluent areas.
The school board braindstormed things they'd like to see in the new equity/equality policy. Staff will take the ideas and present a draft policy to the board for consideration.
Click here for the handout that Dulaney presented to the board to get the discussion going.
Comments
School Calendar and Magnet Program Changes, 2009-10 and 2010-11
Wed, 01/14/2009 - 21:15 — AngelaWhttp://www.wcpss.net/demographics/overview/images/08/I-overview08.pdf
User 1234 said: "The purpose
Tue, 01/13/2009 - 12:19 — jenmanUser 1234 said: "The purpose of the magnet is to get suburban parents to fill a seat in an under utilized school so we don't need to build another one."
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That is one purpose of the magnets. Another is to reduce pockets of poverty, which is why Hunter, Ligon, Poe, Powell, and all the others ITB east/south of Capital are magnets. But I think that Broughton, Daniels, Martin, Wiley, Brooks, Joyner and the like are (or were in the case of Broughton & Daniels) magnets in order to keep the 'wealthier' white families in the area from leaving the system.
I was at the work session where Daniels was de-mag'ed and the ONLY argument I heard to keep the program was made by David Ansbacher, the magnet director. He feared that without the program, Daniels would start losing its base families to the private schools nearby. He mentioned that Daniels had been magnetized & demagnetized once before and then was re-magnetized when the base population started going elsewhere. One page of the report showed the percentage of students in Daniels' base who actually attended Daniels over the years. Each year more and more of the base chose to stay at Daniels and this was a positive result of the magnet program.
So the school system is willing in some cases (this was also the reasoning for making Brooks a magnet) to give certain families more than everybody else in order for them to stay in the system. Those magnets aren't designed to fill underutilized schools, they are designed to keep local populations from leaving the system. They make sure that the F&R stays low enough to be 'palatable' and bring in magnet students to take the rest of the seats, which in Daniels & Broughton's case was a fairly small percentage.
I understand now... thanks
Tue, 01/13/2009 - 13:11 — user1234I understand now... thanks for the detail ...
Equal and Magnet in the same
Mon, 01/12/2009 - 15:09 — rr77rr99Equal and Magnet in the same title... now that's funny stuff right there!
funny
Tue, 01/13/2009 - 14:37 — Forget_not_the_...wcpss and equity in same headline is also funny
with the current BoE (eR) as
Mon, 01/12/2009 - 14:47 — AngelaWwith the current BoE (eR) as it stands there will NEVER be a chance at equal.....vote 'em all out and then we'll see where we'll be........this is of utmost importance.
expires November 2009
District 1 Millberg
District 2 Tart
District 7 Head
District 9 Goettee
District 9 is our only
Tue, 01/13/2009 - 06:45 — vsheehanDistrict 9 is our only chance on western wake to get another Ron. Has anyone heard of another Ron , who could win, willing to run?
Action
Mon, 01/12/2009 - 21:05 — SDR256We are forming a cross county diverse group to take ACTION on this topic. Send me an email to sdr256@hotmail.com if you're interested in more information.
What "action" is your group
Tue, 01/13/2009 - 14:39 — rr77rr99What "action" is your group going to take?
Connect
Tue, 01/13/2009 - 15:43 — SDR256Send me an email rr77rr99 and I'll send you more info.
Change alone is not
Mon, 01/12/2009 - 15:09 — shearertwChange alone is not enough. As we will soon find out, "change" must go in the right direction in order to be effective.
I agree they all must go but we need some solid candidates to take their place. I've yet to hear the name of a single individual planning to run for those spots. Dose anyone have any insight? I'd love to get behind a couple of Ron-like candidates and start raising some funds.
me too!
Mon, 01/12/2009 - 15:57 — JSBinNCAnd my district is not up this year... but if I can help elsewhere I will!
there are groups out
Mon, 01/12/2009 - 18:52 — AngelaWthere are groups out there.....if you are serious, write to Ron at the BoE and let him know where you stand...
Thanks
Tue, 01/13/2009 - 10:57 — JSBinNCI just sent Ron a note - thanks angela...
Great!
Tue, 01/13/2009 - 12:29 — AngelaWgood for you....there are things happening "out there"... :)
Unequality
Mon, 01/12/2009 - 14:32 — NWRaleighMomFrom the report Dulaney presented - page 5
THERE IS NOTHING MORE UNEQUAL
AS EQUAL TREATMENT OF UNEQUALS.
Sounds like the Netflix commercials....
Mon, 01/12/2009 - 17:21 — fiestamom"If tree is the opposite of swimming pool, then what is the capital of panda bear?"
Holy Cow
Mon, 01/12/2009 - 15:59 — Bob_SconceWatch out George Orwell, Chuck Delaney and Beverly Clark are giving you some competition by redefining a word to mean the exact OPPOSITE of what it actually means. According to Webster's, "Equitable" just means "dealing fairly and equally with all concerned." (equity is just defined as "something that is equitable.")
Somehow, Chuck Dulaney has conjured the idea that equality does not mean "dealing . . . equally with all concerned."
Chuck's just saying you
Mon, 01/12/2009 - 16:19 — Eric_BChuck's just saying you can't take two unequals and treat them equally.
For example, one person could say the earth is flat. Another person could say the earth is round. It wouldn't be right to treat these ideas equally and say there is a 50% chance that the earth is flat. There's an overwhelming preponderance of evidence that the chance the earth is round.
Eehh...
Mon, 01/12/2009 - 16:46 — Bob_SconceI think your example is a stretch. I can take the number 5 and 12 and treat them both equally by adding 1. The inputs weren't equal, and the outputs weren't equal, but I treated them equally.
In a classroom, if Mary says "2+2=4" and Johnny says "2+2=5" and I tell Johnny he's wrong and Mary she's right, I've treated them equally because I applied the same standard ("If you get the right result, I tell you you're right. If you don't, I tell you you're wrong") to both of them.
I think you're confusing "equality" with Chuck's distorted view of equity, which is looking for the same result given different inputs. In that view, it's not equitable that some smart students can take college-level courses as seniors while others are in remedial courses. Under that definition, "equity" is when that smart kid is also in remedial courses.
Nice example Bob...let me
Tue, 01/13/2009 - 10:42 — shearertwNice example Bob...let me expand it to what Chuck really wants to happen.
12-4 =8
5 + 4 (the 4 removed from the 12) = 9.
Give the "new 8's" a chance in hell for a magnet slot to make yourself feel better for screwing them out of 1/3 of their original value.
Oh, so you employed
Tue, 01/13/2009 - 14:40 — rr77rr99Oh, so you employed Trailbailzer's math...
...
Mon, 01/12/2009 - 14:47 — SideburnsWho's on first?
ha!
Mon, 01/12/2009 - 14:50 — AngelaWbetcha Bud and Lou would do a better job anyway!
Sure
Mon, 01/12/2009 - 14:31 — JSBinNCMagnet schools should offer unique opportunity.
But MAGNET SCHOOLS should also serve a population in NEED! The current ones need to be evaluated YEARLY to determine if the money going into the additional electives meets clearly defined criteria for the population it's serving!
Magnet schools need to serve FIRST those most in need - and draw in non-F&R children from all cultural and other walks of life. Right now we have a good number of magnet schools serving as base, NEIGHBORHOOD schools for the elite of downtown Raleigh.
And Rosa says there are no neigborhood schools.
Whatever.
rosa might be right
Tue, 01/13/2009 - 14:42 — Forget_not_the_...in Rosa's corner of the world there are no neighborhood schools
all her elementary schools are magnet schools and I would argue a large number are Title 1
and a significant percentage of her students are bussed to Garner or North Raleigh
In her corner of the world Rosa speaks the truth....
sleeves off her vest
Mon, 01/12/2009 - 14:23 — loriac"School board member Lori Millberg agreed that magnet schools should continue offering unique programs. She said magnet schools provide equality because all students can apply to attend them."
Sure - you can apply. But if you are a non-LI% node assigned to a high LI% school, only 1 out of 10 in your node who apply to a magnet will be selected. How is that providing equality?
Lori's neighborhood
Tue, 01/13/2009 - 14:46 — Forget_not_the_...The magnet schools in Lori's neighborhood are called equity magnets.
You don't apply to them. You are bless to live near them and you get to go them because of that. These schools have these extra magnet programs to keep the local people attending and to keep the F&R numbers looking good for the public.
Get rid of her equity magnets and my bet is that you will see school flight from those schools similar to the way the birds flew in that famous Hitchcock thriller.
Wake no longer has equity
Wed, 01/14/2009 - 14:50 — KeungHui (author)Wake no longer has equity magnets. They demagnetized Wake Forest Elementary and required people to apply into Wendell and Zebulon elementary schools at the same time they demaged the other schools.
thanks
Wed, 01/14/2009 - 21:11 — Forget_not_the_...thanks for the update.....so is true then that even the equity magnet county schools have lost their magnet status???
Of the equity magnets, only
Thu, 01/15/2009 - 10:34 — KeungHui (author)Of the equity magnets, only Wake Forest Elementary was demagnetized. The board felt the school would be healthy enough without the magnet program. Due to the high percentage of low-income students at the other two equity magnets, Wendell and Zebulon elementaries, they were left as magnet schools. But they now have to accept applicants like the other magnets. It's the redrawing of application areas to handle both schools that is causing some magnet students, such as at Bugg Elemetnary, to have to change schools to stay in the program.
Back when the magnet program started, there was a large number of equity magnet schools, including Apex Elementary and Carroll Middle. Those were dropped as magnets over time.
I always knew Lori Millberg
Tue, 01/13/2009 - 09:01 — rr77rr99I always knew Lori Millberg thought that everyone was an idiot! They are "equal" because you can apply to them? Is she selling waterfront property in AZ or Bridges in Brooklyn, too?
I am really starting to think that the BOE really and truly does believe the parents in this county are so stupid that the will believe what they are told by them and WCPSS administration. Well, they need to know, the Kool Aide train has come to a crashing hault.
Even those that were sipping before are now "off the stuff" and are coming out of their comas and saying, "wait a minute...."
It's not
Mon, 01/12/2009 - 14:36 — JSBinNCThere is nothing equal about that at all.
In addition - there needs to be balance between "magnet" unique opportunity and "base" opportunity. Right now the magnets get EVERYTHING and the base schools get nothing. Many of us are not even getting spanish this year, which the BOE funded EVERY school for. Nadda - not at my school, anyway - no 2nd language at all this year period.
I think there is a line between enhanced electives and complete abuse of the funds allocated. Why a magnet should get 5 language choices while the base schools can't even get ONE is beyond me.
My two main issues with the
Mon, 01/12/2009 - 14:02 — shearertwMy two main issues with the magnet program:
1. Many of the non-magnet schools (including the one my children attend) are sub-par. I believe that if you are going to have a magnet program, you at least have to make all of your non-magnet schools on-par for those who cannot or do not get into a magnet.
2. The location of the magnets are not readily accessible to all in the county. Those of us living out on the far edges would undergo significant sacrifices in bus or parent travel time to and from these schools which are almost exclusively ITB. Are there no signficantly F&R areas outside the beltway to place a magnet? Even though we can all apply, I'd argue that there is not "equal access".
Finally, can anyone please clarify Ms. Clark's statement for me....
this quote?
Tue, 01/13/2009 - 14:49 — Forget_not_the_...Is this the quote you want clarified?
Clark said that treating everyone equally doesn't promote equity.
Here is my translation:
"ldiher slidhperjh dslehro sdheoiur/ hsiuerhs dfhfeot["
Oh.....now it makes sense.
Tue, 01/13/2009 - 16:16 — shearertwOh.....now it makes sense.
"Are there no signficantly
Mon, 01/12/2009 - 16:53 — user1234"Are there no signficantly F&R areas outside the beltway to place a magnet? "
1) The purpose of the magnet is to get suburban parents to fill a seat in an under utilized school so we don't need to build another one.
2) F&R's are mostly outside the beltline now most living in rural areas and out toward Knightdale and Garner.
"F&R's are mostly outside the beltline now
Mon, 01/12/2009 - 17:29 — Falcmost living in rural areas." So why are the majority of magnets still ITB? Why aren't the 30+% low-income schools in my OTB semi-rural area magnets? The only reason our traditional calendar school is no longer underutilized is MYR.
“So why are the majority
Mon, 01/12/2009 - 18:04 — user1234“So why are the majority of magnets still ITB?”
Because that is where all the under utilized schools are. ITB use to be all there was years ago. School aged kids have move to the ‘burbs now. One day ITB may repopulate like Brougton and there won’t be a need to give incentives to be inconvenienced.
“Why aren't the 30+% low-income schools in my OTB semi-rural area magnets?”
90% of the schools have between 20-40% F&R from the rural, Trailer Parks, and apartments. Note, many teachers, policeman and fireman are F&Rs depending on how many kids they have and may live near you. There are a few schools that have low F&R% probably due to housing segregation by planners.
See this map for how F&R concentration has changed over the years.
http://www.wcpss.net/demographics/special-need/F&R-historic-m.pdf
“The only reason our traditional calendar school is no longer underutilized is MYR”
<Bob> “The theory is that the school board would rather bus kids to fill a school in an under populated area than sell that school and build one where the kids live. I don't buy it though -- No reason that, say, Enloe's base area can't be expanded to the point that base students fill the entire school.”
Bob has a reasonable idea though I doubt schools like Enloe could be sold for enough to build a new $70M replacement. When you build new you need to include all the new building codes which drive up the price. School buildings probably have a 100 year life and just because some folk decide to move to the edge of the county, I don’t think the school system is obligated to follow them and make it convenient by transferring the cost for new facilities to the 70% of the folks who don’t have kids. Also, if the base area for Enloe were increased to find 2800 kids, the area might extend to Apex reignite more complaint.
All the underutilzied schools are ITB
Tue, 01/13/2009 - 01:57 — FalcTry looking at the full demographics report. I think you will find high F&R underutilized schools OTB.
I have seen the maps. Try comparing them to the magnet schools map. The ITB portion of District 3 has little F&R, but plenty of magnets, yet Garner has plenty of F&R students, but few magnets (even after Smith is added).
Housing segregation by planners? So some planners sit in a room with a Wake County map and say "this section will be for the affluent, this section for starter homes, and we'll put the trailers over here." Really? That's interesting because I used to live across from a woman in Cary who was selling herself and/or drugs based on the comments her six-year old made, but how could that be -- Cary is the section segregated for the affluent isn't it?
BTW - as we are all about diversity, it is firefighter and police officer, not fireman and policeman. Thanks for pointing out what my neighbors may do for a living, but actually I know them quite well, so I already knew they were teachers and firefighters. What was your point? If an area's F&R population is underpaid public servants, their kids don't need foreign language, dance and other magnet perks. Should magnets be reserved for affluent kids and the 30-40% of the ITB F&R fortunate enough not to get bussed out to a 30% F&R non-magnet OTB in order to make room for affluent suburban kids at the ITB magnet? Why should people who live in socio-economically diverse areas OTB be penalized with a less than 10% chance of going to a magnet? Isn't it ironic that WCPSS penalizes people for living in a socio-economically diverse area.
“Housing segregation by
Tue, 01/13/2009 - 09:50 — user1234“Housing segregation by planners? So some planners sit in a room with a Wake County map and say "this section will be for the affluent, this section for starter homes, and we'll put the trailers over here." Really?”
It really comes down to apartment and section 8 placements. Some affluent areas will fight zoning for lower rent apartment because of some bogus reason like increased traffic. Add to that, planners centralize public transportation and public services and for right or wrong than concentrate the housing in the same area which localizes low income zones.
“If an area's F&R population is underpaid public servants, their kids don't need foreign language, dance and other magnet perks.”
Ideally, there should be no magnets though I would like to see specialized schools like the NC School of the Arts and NC of Math and Science for our Mensa kids. I like to see a few IB schools since we are so ignorant of the work outside the US (e.g. offer Chinese and Russian like Enloe) and one Vocational Tech school since we need plumbers, mechanics, etc. who often make more than teachers. Magnets should be used to attract kids to schools where the base population has aged out and than demagnetized once the school age kids repopulate the neighborhood (e.g. 10 years?)
Ummm...
Tue, 01/13/2009 - 10:28 — SideburnsI will admit that I am fairly ignorant to the magnet system so this question may seem naive...however...where in Wake County has the base population aged-out and the school system needs to fill an otherwise underutilized school? Is there really an area that simply doesn't have school-aged kids so we must "attract" them from other areas of the county? If WCPSS already buses kids from all over the county to fill schools, why do we need the magnet program to accomplish that?
“where in Wake County has
Tue, 01/13/2009 - 11:20 — user1234“where inWake County
I always thought Broughton was a good example. It is 70 years old? And still serves a useful purpose. When I moved here 25 years ago people where moving outside the belt line to far off towns likeCary
I don’t know what happened to Enloe. It is a huge facility with 2800 kids. I am guessing “white flight” may have decimated the area and it never recovered??
Yes, it is ironic that this
Tue, 01/13/2009 - 06:34 — vsheehanYes, it is ironic that this school punishes those who live in diverse nods. I purposely picked a diverse neighborhood as that is what we came from in VA. If I had known that then my child would not be allowed to go to the gifted school because of the elementary we picked then I would have not moved into this neighborhood. No one from our elementary wins the lottery to go to Ligion. Does not matter if your CogNat score gets you entrance into MENSA it only matters that our school has 30% F&R.
What’s bizarre is how they fill the gifted schools. AG services should be treated like Special Ed and is treated as such by other states. Where we came from the CogNat top 10% scoring kids went to the gifted school end of story. But here it would be unfair for the F&R kids in Raleigh not to have automatic entrance into the Gifted schools. So do F&R kids in Raleigh get automatic entrance into CC rooms or AU rooms; isn’t unfair if they don’t.
Ehh...
Mon, 01/12/2009 - 18:33 — Bob_SconceI don't think 100-year life. WF-R high school is being renovated now for something like 90% of the cost of building new. IIRC, it's around 40 years old. You have to discount that $70M by the usable life of the school.
My actual suggestion is that the notion of an "under-utilized" school is amiss, because the district can turn any under-utilized school into an over-utilized school simply by assigning more students to it. For example, the district could just reassign kids from Broughton to Enloe (then from Millbrook to Broughton, etc....) Saying "Enloe is a magnet because it's under-utilized" is really just saying "Enloe is a magnet because we don't want to assign any more base students there," which is really just saying "Enloe is a manget because we want it to be."
Which leads us to where we started: why do they want it to be a magnet?
I was thinking of the
Mon, 01/12/2009 - 19:55 — user1234I was thinking of the original Cary High Building which is now used as a performing arts center built in 1896 or Broughton built in 1829 as investments that we still depend on.
"Which leads us to where we started: why do they want it to be a magnet? "
For me, that is 2800 students from across the county some driving 26 miles that are not taking up seats in over crowded schools like Panther Creek. Sure you could send them all back to their home school and displace who ever is there now but do we need any more grief? Also, I am glad we have a school like Enloe where all the exceptional kids can attend.
Ok..
Tue, 01/13/2009 - 10:17 — Bob_SconceWas that sarcasm? I would modify your last sentence as follows:
". . . where all the exception kids who live within a reasonable distance and who are lucky enough to win the multi-tiered lottery set up by the school district (which, incidently, has set aside fewer seats at Enloe next year) can attend."
Which, again, gets us back to where we started. Is it "Equitable" for a student who lives in the extreme northern part of the county who wants to go to Enloe to have to (1) win a lottery with stacked odds, and then (2) catch a 5:30 bus to get there, when ITB students who happen to have gone through the entire magnet track are virtually guaranteed a seat and have less than a 30 minute drive?
“Which, again, gets us
Tue, 01/13/2009 - 11:28 — user1234“Which, again, gets us back to where we started. Is it "Equitable" for a student who lives in the extreme northern part of the county who wants to go to Enloe to have to (1) win a lottery with stacked odds, and then (2) catch a 5:30 bus to get there, when ITB students who happen to have gone through the entire magnet track are virtually guaranteed a seat and have less than a 30 minute drive?”
Bob, I thought that is what you wanted is to keep the undesirable in their own node and out of yours. Don’t you want to keep the ITB kids flowing into ITB school buildings so you don’t get them in your school? The schools get supplemented with a few suburban kids who drive in as the local population grows. Eventually, your kids won't need to mix with the ITB kids.
No...
Tue, 01/13/2009 - 12:57 — Bob_SconceI want to see neighborhood schools where students go to a nearby school, where there's some stability in assignment and where the school district doesn't dole out the best programs to those few students who meet some byzantine acceptance criteria and who are willing to spend hours on a bus to get there.
I want to see kids from a given area (ITB or otherwise) flowing into school buildings in that area because I believe those kids will do better when their parents and community are able to be involved in that school over the long term.
Has nothing to do with some sort of anti-ITB bias that you're trying to impute to me. Apply your stereotypes elsewhere, please.
Explain please
Mon, 01/12/2009 - 20:06 — SideburnsHow does one get their child identified as "exceptional" so they can attend Enloe?
Also, why did you change your login ID, ncdad1? I noticed the same font issues on your previous posts have cropped up on your new "user1234" posts.