WakeEd

The WakeEd blog is devoted to discussing and answering questions about the major issues facing the Wake County school system. How much will the new Democratic majority on the school board do to undo the changes made by Republicans since 2009? Will the new student assignment plan be a hybrid of the last two models or primarily be a return to the use of busing for diversity? Who will replace Tony Tata as the new superintendent of the state's largest district? How will voters react to a likely request in 2013 to borrow potentially more than $1 billion to build and renovate schools?

WakeEd is maintained by The News & Observer's Wake schools reporter, T. Keung Hui. While Keung posts information and analysis on the issues, keep us posted on your suggestions, questions, tips and what you're doing to cope with the changes in Wake's schools.

Choose a blog

Looking at where Wake teachers want to work

Bookmark and Share

It looks like Wake County teachers want to work in more affluent schools.

The most requested schools for teacher transfers are typically those in more affluent parts of the county. Wake schools with higher poverty levels tend to see far fewer requests from teachers to work there. (The requests are made by current teachers who want to work elsewhere in Wake.)

Excluding the new schools opening this summer, the five most requested schools this year are Davis Drive Middle, Holly Springs Elementary, Salem Middle, Brier Creek Elementary and Holly Ridge Elementary.

Excluding the alternative schools and the four separate small schools on East Wake High's campus, the least requested schools are Zebulon Middle, Knightdale High, Wendell Middle, East Wake Middle and Wakelon Elementary.

This pattern can also been seen in prior years.

Looking at individual schools this year, one big red flag is that Knightdale High had the most teachers of any school requesting to leave. But the school had a relatively low number of people requesting to work there. The school's results on the latest Teacher Working Conditions survey are pretty bad.

Among the schools undergoing conversion back to a traditional calendar, Leesvile Road Elementary bad 211 teachers requesting to work there with 23 wanting to leave. At Leesville Road Middle, 182 asked to work there while 23 requested to leave. At Mills Park Elementary, 237 wanted to come and 15 wanted to leave.

At Green Hope Elementary, whose conversion was approved by the old board, 232 wanted to come and 12 wanted to leave.

As to how much value to weigh each item, Stephen Gainey, assistant superintendent for human resources, said when he was a principal he focused more on how many teachers wanted to leave as opposed to how many wanted to work at his school.

Click here for the spreadsheet with year-by-year totals since 2007 for teacher transfer requests by school. As you can see, a teacher can include multiple schools on a request.

If you hear someone citing these numbers to say 28,000 teachers want to work in Wake, well they're wrong. These are the requests from the 1,699 current Wake teachers who filed paperwork listing a whole bunch of schools they're interested in transferring to this fall.

You'll note that there was a sharp increase in 2008 in the number of requests to work at schools. No one in the district could explain the spike, such as whether there was a change in methodology or some other factor.

Comments

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

"Those Kids" in My School....

Red Balloon wrote:
A better workplace attracts better workers. Demonstrate to me that I haven't been cheated off my earnings by negligent parents, conniving leadership, and students more at ease with profanity and violence than discipline and learning.

The truth finally comes out, huh Balloon? Your support of ol' Johnny's "Promise Zones" has nothing to do with focusing attention on students that were hidden by the previous student assignment policy, doesn't it?

Instead, it has everything to do with keeping those students who are "more at ease with profanity and violence" (read: poor kids) out of your neighborhood.

At least you're willing to tell the unvarnished truth. That's something Johnny hasn't been willing to do yet.

Wave that judgmental banner high, huh? And keep believing that every parent in a poor community is "negligent" and that every child growing up in poverty is "more at ease with profanity and violence."

The more often you spew that kind of bile, the angrier the honest folks in our community will get. We need more statements like yours to pull the covers off of the warm and fuzzy "neighborhood schools" rhetoric that the right is spinning.

You haven't been following

You haven't been following my posts. I started posting here after experiencing the "nationally recognized" education system and the magnet discrimination. My support for change is because I am not satisfied with the current model. I don't find it necessary to get into a frenzy over ED students given they have the NAACP, WEP, magnet parents, past BOEs, etc. looking out for their interests. Concerned, yes; worked up, no. I will support a model where a (i) hard working poor kid gets priority over rich kids and (ii) rich kids earn access to privileged resources.

Poor kids needn't be kept out of the school my kids attend. Just like others, you assume that everybody disagreeing with you is out to keep poor kids out of rich schools. I can see that these statements come in handy to inflame passions and I am disappointed you indulge in that. Every kid, rich or poor, deserves an education in a safe environment. If expectations of a safe environment make me an evil person and the catalyst for making people like you angrier, that suits me just fine.

Finally, don't confuse me with the right or left. I am a parent concerned about the education model followed by WCPSS.

Check your Facts, Balloon....

Your responses are so predictable, Balloon---and they only go to reinforce my central point: That wealthy suburban communities are perfectly fine with funding inequities between schools in our communities.

The best part of your response is you focused on class sizes despite the fact that my entire post had to do with teacher salaries. Knowing that you're an intelligent person, I gotta believe that change of focus wasn't unintentional.

So let's bring the conversation back to salaries: East Garner Middle---a school that you cite in your class size statistics---has 5 teachers certified by the National Board for Professional Teaching Standards. Salem Middle---out in the affluent Western Corridor of our county----has 20.

Not only do teachers with National Board Certification have a proven track record at improving student achievement---creating an inequity in access to educational opportunity----but they are paid a 12% salary stipend every year for 10 years.

That means we're investing more of our tax dollars into Salem than we are into East Garner, plain and simple----and considering that teacher salaries are the single greatest expense in operating any school system, the disparity between spending at East Garner and Salem is great.

Explain to me how that's fair?

If I were a parent in an affluent school---or an elected official in an affluent township---I'd argue for more high poverty schools too. That way, the state would spend more on my kid's teachers than they do on the teachers in poor communities.

And if I were a parent in a poor community, I'd be pissed. Tax dollars are not being distributed equally to our schools, and it seems that at the very least, we should expect an equal distribution of resources.

Heck, I'll even go as far as to say that I DON'T want more money spent on high needs schools. Instead, just guarantee me that we'll spend AS MUCH on high needs schools----including on teacher salaries---as we do on the quasi-private academies that we've got in the rich pockets of our county.

Don't evade what you have

Don't evade what you have brought up. You mentioned class sizes. I repudiated that with answers from the NC Teacher Working conditions survey. But since that doesn't help your case, I am not surprised the first two paragraphs of your post are about the poster than the post.

EGMS is a poor example. You are so caught up in proving your cheating theory that you completely gloss over the fact that magnet offerings are more desirable than non-magnet offerings. 

As for your main grouse, you need to guarantee that the community and parents will improve the working conditions for teachers. I do not need to guarantee that more tax dollars will be flushed down the drain without the root causes being addressed. A better workplace attracts better workers. Demonstrate to me that I haven't been cheated off my earnings by negligent parents, conniving leadership, and students more at ease with profanity and violence than discipline and learning.

Repudiate This, Balloon....

Red Balloon wrote:

Don't evade what you have brought up. You mentioned class sizes. I
repudiated that with answers from the NC Teacher Working conditions
survey.

 

I will concede I hadn't

I will concede I hadn't perused the document referenced in your post. I have since gone through the first few pages until I got to the "I have two students who have to sit at the table at my desk" sentence. This is unfortunate but is not exclusive to poor schools. I have seen this happen a couple of times at an 'affluent' WCPSS school.

I will however go through the rest of the document because I don't want to be oblivious to the needs of other students. As for the NBCT qualification, I have mixed feelings about that based on what I have seen and read.

CMS Certified Teachers info

I found a table that lists the number of certified teachers per school in Charlotte Mecklenburg as well as their poverty level.

...http://media.charlotteobserver.com/smedia/2010/01/07/11/schools_certified.source.prod_affiliate.138.pdf

I ordered the data by poverty level.  CMS has  168 schools. Of those,  116 are 40% or higher.  You can see the student/certified teacher ratio improve (ie  the number of certified teachers per student increases) as the F&R goes down.

21 schools >=90%     138 students/teacher
24 schools 80%-89%   147
24 schools 70%-79%   132
18 schools 60%-69%   138
14 schools 50%-59%   111
15 schools 40%-49%    88
14 schools 30%-39%   110
14 schools 20%-29%    84
21 schools 10%-19%    79
3 schools <10%       83

Teachers are only human.

Teachers are only human. Think about it...would you want to work in an environment where there's little support for what you do each and everyday? Would you like to be blamed for every "ill" in today's society? Would you be willing to work under the conditions where outside factors such as absent family enviornment effects your ability to do your job...but then the teachers are blamed for the failure of the kids due to this issue.
I would never want to be held accountable for something that I have no control over. Teachers only have control over what they do from the time the child walks into the classroom and until that child leaves and goes home. So, basically, let's say from 3:00 pm until 8:30 am the following morning...the teacher has no control over what that child does at home, whether they do homework, read, play, eat, sleep in a warm house, under one roof...etc. These are HUGE factors in the education field today that is causing so much problems in a teacher's ability to educate all children. If ALL children come from the same home, the same environment, etc...the YES...there shouldn't be any reason why a teacher shouldn't be able to have each and every child in his/her room on grade level each and every year.
BUT, we all know...that isn't the case...it never has been and IT NEVER WILL!!! My problem is everyone wanting to analyze everything a teacher does or doesn't do. It seems the world is caught up in picking about every breathe a teacher makes and then making a mockery of what they didn't do. Society, parents and government has failed the kids that are failing. The schools have not...I will NEVEr be convinced of that. You can have every spread sheet with mounds of data on it from every God given mulitiple choice test given known to man this day and time. THE MAJOR FACTOR is...the child's home, family and upbringing is the cause of the failure. I also blame government and it's uselss liberal programs...that are suppose to "help" those less fortunate. These don't help...the just enable the people to become poorer and poorer, and many of these people are perfectly fine with it.
Teachers are going to pick where they want to work, no matter what factors are involved, just like each and every one of us pick and choose where we would like to work. Teachers leave to move to another school, just like the rest of us that leave and apply and accept another job with another business.
Get off educators backs...THE TEACHERS...and lets face what needs to be done...is to do something ( I don't know what that is or how to even start) about the family situation and the state that modern day society is in today. NOBODY wants to tackle that...because that's a whole lot of work..so of course as humans we just go after and attack the mild mannered weakling...the teacher.
You can not hold a teacher responsibile for the choices that children and their parents make...any more that anyone can hold you responsible for how I keep my house clean. I know that might sound a little far fetched...but when you think about it, it's pretty much the same thing. If you are a supervisor in a business, you know what your job is, you know what needs to be done, you work each day to make your employees accountable, HOWEVER it will come down to that person's choice. So not only are you judged on your job performance, but the ability for that person to keep their house clean is also used in the business' evaluation of your job abilities. IT has nothing to do with it.
Take a doctor...the doctor can provide every test, give all the advice, prescribe all the medicine he/she can to it's patient, however if that patient doesn't care or just doesn't bother to follow the advice...that patient could die. But are you going to go an hold every doctor liable for the patient's death? NO, of course not, the patient knows the risks, the patient knows what needs to be done to stay healthy or keep their health under control. The doctor can not make a diabetic take their meds to keep their blood sugar in control. That is up to the patient. A doctor can not MAKE a person with high blood pressure, take their medicine to keep their blood pressure normal to avoid a heart attack and/or stroke.
A teacher is the same, they work hard, they teach, they guide, they provide examples, they let parents know of the child's strengths and weaknesses, and even provides feedback to parents of what they could do at home to help their child succeed. Then it's up to the parents to take that information and use it to help their child.

Systematically Cheating Poor Communities...

Here's the interesting thing that seems to be left out of this conversation so far:

Teacher salaries---which in North Carolina are tied to years of experience and additional licenses that teachers can earn----are the single greatest expenditure of any school system. They're picked up largely by the state, although our county adds a percentage-based suppliment to every salary.

The hitch is that teachers with more experience and higher qualifications----thereby drawing significant levels of additional compensation----tend to work in suburban buildings with smaller percentages of students living in poverty.

Need proof? Check out this research report on the distribution of teachers holding qualifications with a demonstrated impact on improving student achievement in North Carolina's schools:

http://sanford.duke.edu/research/papers/SAN06-08.pdf

That means we spend SIGNIFICANTLY more on students in affluent suburbs than we do on students in high poverty schools simply because teachers in the 'burbs earn higher salaries.

They get 10% bonuses for master's degrees, 12% bonuses for National Board Certification and yearly increases based on experience. Meanwhile, students in high poverty buildings are taught by teachers with emergency/provisional licenses or teachers with less than three years of experience---factors that are known to result in poor learning for kids.

Add the salary differences up across faculties of 35-70 staff members, and you'll see that we spend MILLIONS more on suburban schools than we do on poor schools EVERY YEAR.

How's that fair?

Now, there's been lots of conversation in the press lately about attracting accomplished teachers to high poverty schools to balance out that inequity----which is a great idea for a school board that openly admits that it is planning to create high poverty buildings and which was one of the under-reported reasons that the diversity policy in place for the past 29 years helped to ensure that education resources were spent somewhat equitably in our county.

But attracting teachers to high poverty buildings requires incentivizing the work---a task that districts nation-wide have struggled to tackle.

Thankfully, North Carolina's teachers have outlined what kinds of incentives it would take to get them to move to high poverty buildings.

Here's their report:

http://www.teachingquality.org/pdfs/ncnbctrecs.pdf

What you'll notice is that their recommendations are going to require a significant investment in high poverty schools. On top of salary incentives, we're going to need to provide smaller class sizes, more professional development on the clock, more professionals working beyond the classroom---guidance counselors, school resource officers, social workers---than we currently provide.

Basically, we're going to have to give teachers in high poverty schools more money AND a fighting chance to succeed.

So are y'all willing to do that?

Are you willing to spend significantly more on improving the working conditions in high poverty schools? Will you support tax increases to protect students in schools that ain't in your "beloved neighborhood?"

Are you willing to see class sizes of 35+ in the suburbs in order to guarantee that there are smaller classes in John's "promise zones?" Are you willing to have one guidance counselor at Davis Drive so there can be 4 at Barwell?

If not, you'll never recruit accomplished teachers to high poverty buildings---and we'll continue to systematically cheat poor communities.

(That's the dirty little secret that people like Wake CARES, Keith Weatherly, and the Leesville community don't want you to know!)

So...

I don't find that study particularly convincing.  The main problem is that it starts off saying, approximately, "schools where kids don't do well tend to attract a disproportionate number of less-qualified teachers" and then concludes with, approximately "schools with a disproportionate number of less-qualified teachers tend to have kids who don't perform well."

The argument is completely circular.

But, you have an unstated premise -- that WCPSS teacher salaries and bonuses do not come out of per-school budgets.  I don't think that's true.  It could be that some schools have decided that they're better off with 3 lesser-qualified teachers than with 2 higher-qualified teachers.  (In particular, there's a big debate whether "Board certification" is worth much. If you're the prinicipal of a school, it may be rational to say "I don't want board certified teachers -- they cost an extra $10K per year, but aren't noticably better than non-board certified teachers."

Regarding the study, the authors' understanding of statistics appears a bit lacking -- look at p. 11 and tell me how the average test scores for High Schools by quartile can be true.  Plus, can you add achievement differences like they do on p.32?  That seems very suspect.  Heck, that table itself seems suspect -- basically it says that if you have a essentially incompetent teacher with no experience, with an emergency certificate, who went to a crappy undergrad school, who performed poorly on their licensing exam and who isn't board certified, then he/she may have a small effect on how their students performed.  

Teacher Quality issues in WCPSS

If you are interested in this topic, the University of Georgia paper referenced in the earlier blog about "Losing Political Will" includes an analysis of the correlation between teacher qualifications (<3 years experience, advanced degree, turnover, and board certification) and the percent of African American students, the percent of F & R students, and the percent of Hispanic students.   (I believe it's on page 21.)  I think this study is interesting because it includes only data from the WCPSS.  I see some methodological issues with this paper but have no reason to doubt their statistical findings.

Circular argument

Of course the argument is circular, a downward spiral has been created that must be stopped or each aspect -- less qualified teachers and students who don't do well -- just reinforces and makes worse the other.  That is how failing schools are created and where our system is headed!

Well..

That downward spiral is conceivable, but the paper doesn't support that conclusion. 

this one isn't a secret




With regards to your point on class sizes, take a look at the NC Teacher Working Conditions survey. Below is consolidated information for responses to Item Q1.1.a.

Q1.1.a) Class sizes are reasonable such that teachers have the time
available to meet the needs of all students.

Bar-

well

2008

Bar-

well

2010

Davis

Elem

2008

Davis

Elem

2010

East Garner

MS

2008

East Garner

MS

2010

Davis

MS

2008

Davis

MS

2010

% Agree

28%

51%

59%

67%

42%

36%

30%

17%

 

You can see the quantum leap between 2008 and 2010 for Barwell. Either your theory about the NEDs cheating the EDs is flawed or the inept NEDs need coaching in cheating. But, apart from your dramatic accusations, the statistics point out that an increasing number of teachers at Barwell opine that the class sizes are reasonable.

DDES feeds DDMS. I assume Barwell feeds East Garner MS. Thus, if you compare the middle school statistics, it further decimates the cheating theory. The cheating theory continues to languish when comparing the HS statistics too.

Barwell

You understand tha Barwell has been under supervison for the last few years?  Which mean HQ has poured money and people into it including consultants, extra tutors and lower the class size to get the school out of failure state.  Affluent school like Davis won't be allowed to sink that low.

Barwell

Couple things to keep in mind with Barwell:

1) the school has only been opened since 2006-07, so we only have three years of data on that school and the students taking the EOGs were not at Barwell all of K-when they took the test. Also, there's been some instability with MYR issues and NCLB opt out.

2) Looking at the underlying data vs overall school is interesting. While ED and minority students are not doing well, they are doing better than at some other schools. It is the white and NED scores that are significantly below district average for those groups. In fact in the first year (before test was renormed), minority scores were slightly above district average. Also, the year the test was renormed ED scores dropped significantly, but ED students at Barwell did no worse overall than at Oak Grove, which was only 10% ED. Also, Barwell's scores went up 11% last year so hopefully whatever happened to result in that will continue. In other words, I hope that just because it is making progress, they don't stop doing what was helping. I'm pretty sure at one point you felt that schools that were making progress should be given a chance (there was some charter school being threatened to be shut down that brought that up).

It seems that all the

It seems that all the attention has helped Barwell but it is sad they had to get in a failure state to get recognized ... 

I hope that just because it is making progress, they don't stop doing what was helping. I'm pretty sure at one point you felt that schools that were making progress should be given a chance (there was some charter school being threatened to be shut down that brought that up).

Personally, I don't know what you can do with failing schools but work to improve them ... it is not like we can send kids overseas like businesses do their workforce when they get tired of them ... I am guessing once the federal government takes their focus off Barwell, the resources will dry up and WCPSS will keep the school on life support as long as no one important cares.

 

Well

"Personally, I don't know what you can do with failing schools but work to improve them"

Well, one of the aspect of policy 6200 was to use reassignment (sending them elsewhere) to improve schools. Unfortunately, that does/did not help the individual students.

I'm pretty sure Barwell was in "failure state" from the outset (versus something it got to) because the underlying students were in that state wherever they were before Barwell opened and they were assigned to the newly opened school. That's why the school level focus is problematic. A school is in "failure state" when X% of students are in "failure state", if we focus on what it takes to get/keep students out of "failure state" then the school will not be in "failure state".

It is sad that the education system is set up to be more reactive than proactive (i.e. if a school fails for two years on the same measure and it is a Title I school then NCLB kicks in). However, NCLB has its problems too and EOGs are just one measure.

You are right that it should not take getting to failure to do something. Unfortunately, getting that through people's heads in a bit of a challenge and so the short-sighted, shooting ourselves in the foot issues happen (i.e. cutting Project Enlightenment funding and closing the alternative school).

Do we know what has happened with other schools that have come out of improvement status as far as how well positive changes have continued or not?

 

Well, one of the aspect of

Well, one of the aspect of policy 6200 was to use reassignment (sending them elsewhere) to improve schools. Unfortunately, that does/did not help the individual students. .

Interesting that NCLB does exactly what 6200 does by moving individual students to other schools ... Barwell is the only school I have known to be "low performing" in the county .......

 

Differences

NCLB allows parents the CHOICE to opt out, whereas 6200 used reassignment without choice. Also, NCLB sanctions only apply if the school is Title I.

If the school is not Title I, it seems it can not meet AYP until the cows come home and I don't think anything happens. We have non-Title I schools that have not made AYP in several years. Some schools only miss by one demographic group, so sort of have to take NCLB with a grain of salt and dig into the details. For example, the only school in my home district that didn't meet AYP missed on SWD.

Barwell was only "low performing" for one year, which was the first year of the Reading test being renormed*, before that it was "no recognition" and now one of twelve "priority" schools here.

*district average for ED EOG combined pass rate was only 31.3% that year and Barwell's for ED was 21.9%, which was higher than Oak Grove's ED pass rate of 20.0%. However, as OG only had about 10% ED students, it still made "distinction". To me that is one flaw in NCLB. Essentially, it is not no child left behind, but rather no Title I school left behind. Children in non-Title I schools can in theory be left behind (not saying this is done intentionally) and are sort of off the radar screen until they are consolidated at the district level. WCPSS as a district has been in improvement status in one way or another since 2005-06.

TPG ... thanks for the

TPG ... thanks for the detail and clearification

Interesting post. This is

Interesting post. This is what you accomplished in the case of Barwell:

- shown that warehouses do get money

- shown that the affluent don't cheat the poor

Have you seen the response from Davis Drive Middle School teachers to the question about class size? Is that the definition of affluence? Or should it be the convenient transportation routes for magnets? 

The only reason the

The only reason the "warehouses" get money and attention is because of NCLB ... I am sure many would rather ignore the problems ... I am guessing once Barwell inches just pass federal take over, all the attention and resources will move on.  Affluents do not cheat the poor actively, they just get more resources and attention because they donate more money and are more savy on how to manipulate the system to their advantage ... it is just survial of the fittest as conservative would say.  Also, DDMS teachers response to class size might be relative ... they might be use to say 20 kids in a class but as the school has become more popular, they are getting 25 which is more than they had but less than say other schools who are enduring >30 ... if they knew how bad it could get, they might be thankful for what they have ....

Absolute class size isn't as

Absolute class size isn't as much as a problem as the number of troublemakers in class. Secondly, if you want to discount DDMS teacher's experiences, I don't see why you can't expand the boundaries of your consideration and look at schools outside of WCPSS (and USA). It will tell you, relatively speaking, that Barwell is not as bad as you understand it to be.

I do not know how bad

I do not know how bad Barwell is or isn't ... I just found the lowest performing school that is under supervison, and has students leaving under NCLB and teachers leaving via transfer while being a community school like John wants to create .....  I am sure there are worse school out there but I was only surveying Wake schools ... personally, I don't want to find another worse school to justify why Barwell does not need attention.

And trouble-making isn't the

And trouble-making isn't the exclusive domain of poor kids, either. 

Wow! What a tirade. The

Wow! What a tirade. The affluent deprive the poor? I suppose the affluent are also responsible for the lack of personal responsibility that some EDs exhibit. Therefore let us pour more money into high F&R schools by way of redemption. Great idea. Let us print more money until the deluge of currency washes away the shortcomings of some sections of society.

Go ahead and blame the affluent for expecting tax dollars to produce results from collaboration between the sponsor and the beneficiary. Your neighborhood bank doesn't loan you money without conditions. Nor do the Bretton Woods twins. Nor the ECB to the PIIGS. This money doesn't flow without expecting the beneficiary to shape up. Whether at the micro or macro level, it is incumbent upon the beneficiary to demonstrate that more expendtiture is necessary and beneficial to all stakeholders.

Your case for a blank check can muster credibility if the beneficiaries can demonstrate a commensurate level of commitment and accountability. If not, any sense of entitlement is a catalyst for disenchantment within the sections of society you accuse of looting the poor.

I often wonder if the

I often wonder if the woodstocks, red balloons, apexters and bobs of the world understand the reality you describe ... if they are ignorant it it, or maybe actual understand but are happy to manipulate the system to their evil advantage .... along with John, they say let us herd more kids into the poverty zone and trust us, everything will be ok ... but we don't see any change coming, or money being raised ....

"Evil advantage". "Stealing

"Evil advantage". "Cheating the poor". Nice. And since the accusations and assumptions have been made, I should perhaps shift my position and ask that the change first emanate from the EDs before an extra penny rolls to the high F&R schools. So, before Barber asks for more money 5/17 and presents a litany of woes, I will check to see if he is offering anything different from the other side. Like increased engagement, respect for the law, concern for children, and respect for teachers and the school infrastructure.

You make things so difficult

You make things so difficult ... helping high F&R schools is quite simple ... early intervention like Project Enlightment, smaller class sizes, after school tutoring, maybe some health help, expand alternate schools, vocational training, and some food from the F&R program ... they don't need magnet program, many foreign languages, AP classes, etc. like your kids.

let me add to that

early intervention like Project Enlightment, smaller class sizes, after
school tutoring, maybe some health help, expand alternate schools,
vocational training, and some food from the F&R program

+

involvement and commitment of parents and the community

+

safe schools

You are correct regarding

You are correct regarding what is needed.  Many of the services needed by these students can be found in the resources the community has to offer.  Class size and training will need to be a school expenditure.

Isn't it kind of obvious

Isn't it kind of obvious that teachers would want to escape violence and vulgarity?

i think you are makeing an

i think you are makeing an assumption that poor kids are violent and vulgar and rich kids aren't ... many teachers have a calling and special skills to reach even the violent and vulgar but since WCPSS does not value these kids they do not put the effort and resources into getting the two together ..... so when faced with poor management hide in the affluent schools until something different comes along.

In the school where I

In the school where I worked, teachers were blamed when these students had behavior problems that interfered with the teaching process.  They were also held accountable when these students were not successful.  I believe this was unreasonable.  Most teachers do not have the training to deal with these students, especially if you consider they may have a class of 30 students with behavior and/ or learning problems.

Thank you Mr. Hui This is

Thank you Mr. Hui
This is valuable data ... usually by following conumers, and teachers are well informed consumers, you can separate the good and bad products .... I am glad we can stop arguing about good teachers migrating to affluent schools and away from poor schools now .... the question is what will John do about it? ... poor kids need good teachers too, probably more than affluent kids ... high concentrations of poor kids can be overcome with good teachers, a good principal, smaller class size, more TA/CA, strict security, combat pay, etc. .... if these newbies stick all the poor kids in a poverty zone and don't do anything to compensate it will be criminal ....

nice try

How did you go from number of requests to number of good teachers? Secondly, have you looked at your favorite example, Barwell?

Isn't Barwell a perfect

Isn't Barwell a perfect example ... it is a neighborhood school where 90% of the kids live within 2 miles of the school and is an example of what John wants to create.  Unfortunately, it has a lot of poor kids, Title 1 and been under a lot of supervison for a couple of years from what I can tell ... I thought I saw in the NCLB notice that the Barwell kids can now transfer out after two years of school failure.  I would not surprise me if the teachers are following suit given they have been in pressure cooker for two years ... why would anyone choose that when they can be at affluent school where all the kids pass.  I am sure the teachers at Barwell are good teachers but they must be exhausted after two years of area supervision.  Time for a vacation at Davis Drive.

I can see why you want to

I can see why you want to evade answering the question. Over the past few years, Barwell's F&R % has not gone down (in fact, it increased by a few % points). But, in the same period, the number of transfer "to" requests has exceeded the number of transfer "from" requests by a handsome margin. Your point about teachers fleeing high F&R schools is not supported by the Barwell statistics. Ditto for Aversboro, Wilburn, Creech Load, Wakelon, etc.

Try looking at the

Try looking at the absolute number of requests ... remember this is an ES with fewer teachers than a HS … Barwell is #9 on the list ... in general most every school has +150 request in as teachers list every school on the list as choices.

  

  2007 2008 2009 2010
School/Location From To From To From To From To
Knightdale High School - 466 29 29 18 93 21 104 38 94
Holly Ridge Middle School - 450 22 36 12 140 15 172 37 230
West Lake Middle School - 607 7 43 10 163 16 197 31 220
Wakefield High School - 595 17 41 17 141 9 155 31 219
Wakefield Middle School - 594 24 43 22 166 19 172 30 201
Creech Road Elementary School - 384 27 28 12 100 12 122 30 124
Dillard Drive Middle School - 394 20 43 20 161 29 183 28 195
Ligon Middle School - 472 2 20 8 124 8 133 25 159
Millbrook High School - 500 24 31 15 128 18 137 25 139
Barwell Road Elementary School - 329 12 27 26 117 26 145 25 133
East Garner Middle School - 404 26 21 20 90 19 104 25 109
East Cary Middle School - 402   64   187 2 206 24 226
Highcroft Elementary School - 443 5 39 29 135 8 162 24 197
Leesville Road Elementary School - 469 16 36 6 187 5 216 23 211

 

A better measure is a % of transfer out compared to # of teachers.  I do not know the # of teachers so I used the #transfers per # students to approximate it .. Barwell is #13 … no matter how you cut it most transfer requests are from poor schools and least requests is from affluent schools … don’t argue against human nature.

School Sum of Transfers Sum of POP Sum of TRFperPOP
River Oaks Middle School - 438 3 11 0.272727273
Mt Vernon Middle School - 508 8 87 0.091954023
Longview High School - 324 7 107 0.065420561
East Cary Middle School - 402 24 442 0.054298643
Creech Road Elementary School - 384 30 585 0.051282051
Green Elementary School - 440 21 476 0.044117647
Moore Square Middle School - 506 21 477 0.044025157
Sanford Creek Elementary School - 554 20 547 0.036563071
Highcroft Elementary School - 443 24 692 0.034682081
Brentwood Elementary School - 336 13 394 0.032994924
East Wake School of IT - 701 12 369 0.032520325
Holly Ridge Middle School - 450 37 1241 0.029814666
Barwell Road Elementary School - 329 25 840 0.029761905
Wendell Middle School - 601 12 419 0.028639618
York Elementary School - 628 12 419 0.028639618
Kingswood Elementary School - 460 10 352 0.028409091
Partnership Elementary School - 525 9 333 0.027027027

 

You missed the point. The

You missed the point. The contention that Davis Drive is a resort and Barwell a battle zone is not borne out by the transfer "to" requests. The slicing and dicing of data you have displayed above does not erase the fact that there are teachers wanting to work in the, what did you call it, "warehouses". The exodus that the Cassandra's prophesize is not evidenced by statistics from the high F&R schools.

Time would be better spent by the minority BOE members, NAACP, WEP, the mushrooming armies, etc. by acknowledging that there are teachers wanting to work at Barwell and figuring out how to improve the working conditions and community involvement.

Here's a good starting point: ...http://www.ncteachingconditions.org/reports/summary.php?siteID=920-329

Time to quit lamenting over the demise of busing as an education tool.

You are way too dramatic ...

You are way too dramatic ... saying one is a battle zone and mass exodus .... Davis has 16% more teachers and five times fewer transfers ... every year about 20% of the Barwell teachers turn over ... so every five years all the teachers are new ... it is not a mass exodus but a slow and steady leak from poor schools ....actually it would be nice if the BOE MAJORITY took an interest ... we can not depend on the minority to always be looking out for minoirities.

 

 

2007 2008 2009 2010
School/Location From To From To From To From To
Barwell Road Elementary School - 329 12 27 26 117 26 145 25 133
Davis Drive Elementary School - 390 5 43 5 160 2 187 5 248

Not as dramatic as

Not as dramatic as propagating the notion that F&R kids will be herded into warehouses.

You are again choosing to ignore a relevant statistic. Despite the high attrition rate, despite the high F&R rate, and despite the proclamations of gloom and doom, the irrefutable fact is that teachers are enlisting to help the students at Barwell. So, we need to figure out to how fix these schools. It is disparaging and distracting to refer to schools as warehouses and vacation spots.

Systematically Cheating Poor Communities...

Here's the interesting thing that seems to be left out of this conversation so far: 

Teacher salaries---which in North Carolina are tied to years of experience and additional licenses that teachers can earn----are the single greatest expenditure of any school system.  They're picked up largely by the state, although our county adds a percentage-based suppliment to every salary.

The hitch is that teachers with more experience and higher qualifications----thereby drawing significant levels of additional compensation----tend to work in suburban buildings with smaller percentages of students living in poverty.  

Need proof?  Check out this research report on the distribution of teachers holding qualifications with a demonstrated impact on improving student achievement in North Carolina's schools:

http://sanford.duke.edu/research/papers/SAN06-08.pdf

That means we spend SIGNIFICANTLY more on students in affluent suburbs than we do on students in high poverty schools simply because teachers in the 'burbs earn higher salaries.

They get 10% bonuses for master's degrees, 12% bonuses for National Board Certification and yearly increases based on experience.  Meanwhile, students in high poverty buildings are taught by teachers with emergency/provisional licenses or teachers with less than three years of experience---factors that are known to result in poor learning for kids.

Add the salary differences up across faculties of 35-70 staff members, and you'll see that we spend MILLIONS more on suburban schools than we do on poor schools EVERY YEAR.

How's that fair?  

Now, there's been lots of conversation in the press lately about attracting accomplished teachers to high poverty schools to balance out that inequity----which is a great idea for a school board that openly admits that it is planning to create high poverty buildings and which was one of the under-reported reasons that the diversity policy in place for the past 29 years helped to ensure that education resources were spent somewhat equitably in our county.

But attracting teachers to high poverty buildings requires incentivizing the work---a task that districts nation-wide have struggled to tackle. 

Thankfully, North Carolina's teachers have outlined what kinds of incentives it would take to get them to move to high poverty buildings. 

Here's their report:

http://www.teachingquality.org/pdfs/ncnbctrecs.pdf

What you'll notice is that their recommendations are going to require a significant investment in high poverty schools.  On top of salary incentives, we're going to need to provide smaller class sizes, more professional development on the clock, more professionals working beyond the classroom---guidance counselors, school resource officers, social workers---than we currently provide. 

Basically, we're going to have to give teachers in high poverty schools more money AND a fighting chance to succeed.

So are y'all willing to do that?  

Are you willing to spend significantly more on improving the working conditions in high poverty schools?  Will you support tax increases to protect students in schools that ain't in your "beloved neighborhood?"

Are you willing to see class sizes of 35+ in the suburbs in order to guarantee that there are smaller classes in John's "promise zones?"  Are you willing to have one guidance counselor at Davis Drive so there can be 4 at Barwell?

If not, you'll never recruit accomplished teachers to high poverty buildings---and we'll continue to systematically cheat poor communities. 

(That's the dirty little secret that people like Wake CARES, Keith Weatherly, and the Leesville community don't want you to know!)  

 

 

 

My responses were appended

My responses were appended to your duplicate post.

Excellent post.

Excellent post.

We agree

 ... need to find a way to fix these schools ... so I am waiting ... and waiting ... the BOE  just authorized a bunch of schools which failed to allow transfers to other schools ... that was sad ... people convenient to a school now have to go across town to another school that is not failing ... that would would not happen at affluent schools ... that would not happen to a school with big donors  ... BOE first #1 priority was to hire another lawyer ... Actually, fixing the failing schools has not hit the radar ... 15 months from now we will have zones that will affect 5% of the kids ... I do not see that as the bold, inovative program to turn these schools around ... and finally, I can tell you from personal experience that it is much harder to teach at a poor school than an affluent school and if you deny that than you are living in lala land.

ok then YOU send YOUR kid to

ok then YOU send YOUR kid to the school that has the most requests to leave and the least requests to transfer in....

I was being sarcastic, Carson

I was being sarcastic, Carson

I am not surprised at your

I am not surprised at your attitude. If something isn't supported by data, take recourse to "I just know it".

Cars View All
Find a Car
Go
Jobs View All
Find a Job
Go
Homes View All
Find a Home
Go

Want to post a comment?

In order to join the conversation, you must be a member of newsobserver.com. Click here to register or to log in.

About the blogger

T. Keung Hui covers Wake schools.
Advertisements