The new ABCs report shows some unusual results.
For instance, SPARC Academy made high growth, exceeding expectations on state exams. SPARC is now closed after the State Board of Education refused to renew its charter. The school's lawsuit is moving along in federal court.
Franklin Academy, a charter school with radically different demographics, didn't meet ABCs goals this year. You don't hear so much about it now but charter advocates used to regularly complain about being forced to follow the state's testing standards.
You see similar things in the Wake school system.
For instance, Broughton and Leesville high schools both didn't meet the state's academic expectations. But Fuquay-Varina High made expected growth.
Comments
Re: to Bigwinnie's recent comment
Wed, 08/13/2008 - 08:12 — Anonymous (not verified)The Middle School\Ag resource person should have never ignored your requests. S/he should have presented your nomination to your school's committee for gifted education, and, based on the evidence of 99th percentile on an ITBS in previous years, your child should have been given the opportunity to take a current aptitude and achievement test. (A K-3 test is of such non-recency for a middle schooler that a new test should have been administered) If you got nowhere with the AG person, the gifted committee, and your principal, you should have contacted the AG office. My kids have a wonderful MS contact person, so it's not the case in all schools.
Sadly, it happens often
Wed, 08/13/2008 - 09:43 — CitizenmomIn talking with parents the struggle to have children properly identified even when test results are readily available is far too commonplace in the WCPSS. Retesting is difficult to get done and private testing is often discounted or ignored.
It is good to hear that you have encountered a cooperative partner in your efforts to serve your child's needs.
.
Tue, 08/12/2008 - 07:47 — Voice_of_Reason_.
In Summary - Grouping and Academically Gifted
Tue, 08/12/2008 - 07:45 — Voice_of_Reason_This is what I got out of this lengthy discussion:
1. Public, unlike private, schools provide a benefit by allowing children to be exposed to a reasonable cross-section of the community in which they live in. [opinion]
2. Ability Grouping does have merit if it done in only math and reading (language arts); not for all classes. [Research supports this]
3. In class grouping is difficult, out of classroom grouping is prefered. [Research supports this]
4. Manditory Year Round schools makes it difficult to do out of class grouping. [fact]
5. Academically gifted (AG) students have the most to lose by not grouping. In fact, irreparable harm can occur. [Research supports this]
7. AG Enrichment pullout provide little benefit without cooresponding differentiation. [Research supports this]
6. BoE and WCPSS could care less, since research shows it has neutral benefit for lower performing students. WCPSS is operating outside the law.[opinion]
FACT - Academically Gifted students have special needs and they have the same rights as other special needs children. (i.e. they have special rights just like children with disabilities) Money and manditory programs for AG programs are provided/mandated by law.
Interesting
Wed, 08/13/2008 - 00:41 — pm1. Agree.
2. The research I have read supports this.
3. The reasearch I have read finds otherwise. In it, they claim that so many reading teachers group in-class that obtaining a control group is very very difficult. Addionally, in-class grouping for math is seen as the better method.
4. I disagree. Out of class grouping does not require multiple class rooms in the same grade.
5. I have only seen one study that supports this. None of the others seem to.
6. I agree. Districts concern themselves with meeting minimum requirements. It does place the interests of the higher achievers at a disadvantage.
#3
Wed, 08/13/2008 - 07:14 — Voice_of_Reason_If you add into the equation a teacher that is capable and trained to teach AG kids, I might agree. Also if the ability grouping has a reasonable spread. When you add into the equation children who are severly underachieving for various reasons, what I say stands. I do know that the under achievers in reading are pulled out the classroom and given special attention in ES.
"Capable and trained"
Wed, 08/13/2008 - 09:34 — CitizenmomVOR thank you for including both ability and training in your description. It takes both.
Gifted children are different. Saying so is not being elitist, denying it though can be harmful. They experience the world differently, with a different tool kit. While a teacher can be trained and introduced to research and practices with gifted children, the ability to implement them is a greater challenge.
Teachers may be surprised to find that parents are far more accurate in identifying their children as gifted than teachers are. Some of the traits that gifted children exhibit can be at times off putting and sadly very early many learn to mask their abilities in order to fit in.
One of the best reasons for ability grouping gifted children is to allow them to be with true peers. Schools are organized largely by age, but for the gifted child age may have very little to do with whether they will find a peer.
fact
Tue, 08/12/2008 - 18:40 — Forget_not_the_...FACT - EACH INDIVIDUAL student has special needs and he has the same rights as other children. (i.e. they have special rights just like AG Children) Money and manditory programs for academic programs for all sorts and conditions of children are provided/mandated by law.
Forget not
Tue, 08/12/2008 - 20:29 — Voice_of_Reason_Show me that in writing, show me the law. I don't agree. The only universal right is to an education. I think that is opinion. I know what you are saying, but each child does not have SPECIAL rights from the government.
feeling
Wed, 08/13/2008 - 15:33 — Forget_not_the_...VOR
My hope is that you remember that there are mutiple types of children out there that need services...not just the AG children.
You are blessed to have two AG students, not every parent is dealt the same cards.
Yet every parent wants each of their children to get the maximum amount of services from public school possible...every parent wants the best for their child.
Although their child might not be AG, their child might be a gifted computer program designer or musical score writer or flutist or florist or writer or street sweeper extraordinaire.
My battle is beyond the battle for just my children but for all the children in the school system. Yes the AG program needs great improvement and overhauling--but so does special education and HELLO the general education overall in Wake County needs ratification first.
You got me wrong
Wed, 08/13/2008 - 17:30 — Voice_of_Reason_I want all children to their full potential. One of my children is AG, the other is a rising third grader than hasn't been tested. I am very fortunate I have alternatives which I know others don't. I am also blessed to have two healthy smart children. I also want you to know this fight is not about me or my children. I fight this fight because I want children to be successful. The AG issue is important because these children, like it or not, have to be our future doctors, engineers, scientists, lawyers, and our future. I am not saying the rest of the children don't have that chance, only these children have a better chance if they are not discarded. I agree all children have rights to the education money well, but some need special considerations. For the challenged (mentally or physically), we should do everything we can to help to ensure they meet their potential. And a lot of money goes to that and is heavily subsidized by the federal government. For the average student we need a good base of educational opportunities and options. This is where the bulk of the money goes. For the gifted, we as a nation have an obligation to help them not squander their gifts due to inadequate teaching methods. I think schools should learn from the doctor's oath, i.e. "do no harm." AG students are actually harmed by not providing the right kind of challenges for them. If not challenged they have a high dropout rate and are sometimes failures in life. Some parents do help, but the school has our children longer, remember that.
You too are lucky, I believe you won the Magnet school lottery, not everyone does. Have you ever felt guilty because your child gets something that most don't? It is not an equal system here. I wish it were more equal for all.
Also if you have read my posts, you will note I am a big proponent of Vo-Tech because I realize not all children are destined for college. My main focus though is Elementary School where I think the most harm is being done.
guilt
Thu, 08/14/2008 - 14:02 — Forget_not_the_...Yep I do feel guilty every day.....trust me I do.
Not Guilty, be happy for what you have
Thu, 08/14/2008 - 15:32 — Voice_of_Reason_I do not feel guilty calling for equity in schools (yes, I call for the end of your magnet schools) or special treatment for AG children. I also don't feel guilty about having one of mine in private, I feel angry at WCPSS for making me pay a "tax" and lying to me about the "wonderful" schools here.
well my goodness, DON'T,
Thu, 08/14/2008 - 15:11 — bigwinniewell my goodness, DON'T, it's the "luck of the magnet lottery draw", it's not like you paid someone off to get your child in.....
A frame of reference
Tue, 08/12/2008 - 09:16 — CitizenmomTake the word "academically" out of the phrase academically gifted and replace it with athletically, musically, artistically and so forth. Would you require the child who has mastered running the quarter mile faster than all those around them to sit still, be quiet and watch with respect while the other 23 students work toward meeting the state established time for students at the age/grade level? Would you say to them, "Since you have finished earlier you must go sit and wait?" If you do, what outcome do you expect after seven hours a day 180 days of the year, year after year?
oh and
Mon, 08/11/2008 - 17:11 — Forget_not_the_...Please understand I feel the frustration of AG kids not being challenged.
My youngest middle school aged son is AG. He is in 7th grade taking Algebra I....and came home quite upset today.
During Social Studies, the class was working brochures and became too loud--the teacher immediately told the class to sit down and start reading their text books. Why? Their noise levels eliminated the opportunity for creative learning.
So I understand frustration...
Public Schools are the "real world"
Mon, 08/11/2008 - 18:12 — Lisa_BHi Forget Not...
Please understand that we choose to send our children to public schools because they represent the real world. We want our children to be exposed to kids like themselves, but more importantly, kids who are different from themselves. (and by that I mean different races, income levels, academic abilities, etc...)
I don't think having an entire class of AG kids in elementary school is necessary for overall development. I do think that grouping children for math and LA and keeping everyone together for the rest of the school day makes a lot of sense. (just my opinion)
Even as adults, we all need to remember that we learn so much from others--ESPECIALLY when they are different from ourselves.
Lisa B, it's not choice
Tue, 08/12/2008 - 14:35 — Voice_of_Reason_We also chose which neighborhoods to live in, where to work, and where to play. Most people do that by their income level, educational level, etc. That is choice. If I chose not to go to a restaurant frequented by drug addicts and gang members, does that make me a lesser person? If I choose to stay in the Marriott instead of Motel 6, does that make me a bigot?
Public schools in Wake County don't give me that choice. If you insist on economic diversity that takes away that choice of school on the upper end, then are we really getting choice. If one would want their children exposed to gangs, violence, and high incidence of drug use, I guess they can also choose to live in those neighborhoods. They would have that choice. I agree if a person of a low income bracket wanted to go to a school with a high mix of upper income, that should be allowed and encouraged; but it should be their choice. Not everybody in low income brackets want this or even care. Most would prefer to stay near home and have a community school.
It is very true that public school has a broader scope of economic levels than private. I do prefer to send my child to public school for this reason. However if that causes my child to start regressing due to class disruptions, lack of challenge, and attention to mainly the lower performing students, then I must make another choice. A choice that not everyone can afford, that is to send my child private. Then if enough people do this, are you really getting a cross section of our community? The result is then skewed to the lower end of the economic ladder. If all the smart children leave that can,where does that leave you? What am I missing? Just remember, that the upper income groups pay the most taxes, they fund the schools the most, and they also relieve the schools of overcrowding by going private with their children. I don't think the later is fair, do you? What do they get out of this equation? [keep schools for their children as primary focus in your answer]
agree
Mon, 08/11/2008 - 19:33 — Forget_not_the_...Lisa--I do agree that AG children should be pulled out for LA and Math if they qualify...but no separate classes for them for all subjects....
In Social Studies, Science, etc. there would be diffientiation to make these classes more challenging....
However in an elementary class of 24 students that is next to impossible to do.....thus my small classroom mantra...
However I can't support totally separate classes for all curriculum areas for elementary AG students....that is what I am trying to say....just probably not very clearly ;)
Pulling these students out once or twice a week is a joke...if they are doing work a grade level higher put them in a class a grade level higher....or pull them out for separate instruction with like peers daily.
Hmmm
Tue, 08/12/2008 - 09:52 — Bob_SconceI don't think I was talking about separate classes for AG students in elementary school. Kids at that age develop so differently -- for example, kids can jump an entire grade-level in reading in just a few months, moving from being a poor reader to being a great reader. And, there appears to be a point where some math concepts just "click." Trying to separate by ability has to be like trying to nail jello to a wall.
Also, I don't think I'm talking about separating strictly by AG status -- when I was growing up, there were non-gifted kids who did well in the advanced classes. Of course, they got into those classes knowing that they were going to be a lot harder.
Higher ability kids (whether just because they're smarter or because they have the gumption to work harder) need to be challenged and rewarded appropriately. Trying to do that in the same classroom as other kids often doesn't work, either because of limited time or because of disincentives caused by the subjectivity in grading ("Sure. I gave Johnny an 'A' because he was working up to his potential. But you're not working up to yours, so even though you did better work than he did, you get a 'B.'")
needs being met
Mon, 08/11/2008 - 15:51 — Forget_not_the_...You are all blessed to be able to enrich the experience of your children outside of school...to advocate that they get the enrichment they need in school.
You have the options of private and charter schools and enrichment programs to fill in the gaps for your children.
My cousin has a truly brillant genius Einstein child and knew that the schools in Massachuetts would not meet his needs. Like you, she and her husband dilligently worked to make sure he was always challenged and that his needs were met in school and he had tons of enrichment outside of school. As soon as they could he was attending Exeter where his mathematic and scientific leanings were further nurtured.
However, I am a parent of three diverse children ranging from exceedingly smart AG to LD. They all have needs that need to be addressed in Public School. Public School is not just for the AG, or the LD, or the middle of the road, or the F&R or the southerners or ITB'ers. It is for everyone.
It hurts when AG superiority argues that their children should not be in classes with my children because it would "dumbie" down their kids....even if it might help my kid a little...ouch. Boy that sure boils over with "love thy neighbor".
Even with all the help in the world from home and school, my child might just learn differently or more slowly or just can't grasp a concept---did any of you take Organic Chemistry in College or a class you just never understood???? Hello....I was a straight A college student until that evil class. Had a high A in second semester Organic at midterm in fact a 97 only to fail the class at the end of the semester.
Even brillant kids have concepts they can't grasp.
Now I support differentiation in the classroom and even pullouts but to have totally separate classes--go to private school or teach your child yourself.
Huh?
Mon, 08/11/2008 - 16:18 — Bob_SconceLet me give you another narrative about my cousin's son, who is quite gifted, but bored stiff in school and, as a result, has gotten into minor trouble -- stuff like doodling while the teacher is teaching or annoying other kids when he finishes his work 20 minutes before they do. He is beginning to dislike school because it's boring and because he gets into trouble when he's bored. (He used to love going.)
Now, it may be that other kids in the class benefit from his sitting next to them (given the disruption, I'm not sure). But, his mom is furious because his school doesn't want to separate him and others like him into their own class, where they can learn together at their own pace. Instead, they're destroying his love of learning.
"Love thy neighbor," sure. But, not at the expense of my own child.
direction
Mon, 08/11/2008 - 17:07 — Forget_not_the_...Brillant or not brillant a student must follow basic rules of the classroom.
The teacher should have differentiated classwork for him--at the very least he should have reading he can do when he finishes before every one else.
Now in an overcrowded classroom the teacher can't differentiate...and why he isn't allowed to read after finishing his work is beyond me. Why is he is not behaving when the teacher is teaching is another issue I can't address.
I know with my AG children the teachers would add additional questions and rubrics to the work and tests they did--the teachers expected oral answers and insights from them at a level higher than the average Joe--the teachers expected out of the box thinking on whatever the curriculum covered at the time and my children and teachers incorporated additional curriculum related reading to be done in class and out of class. Thus when work was done early, my children were reading.
We have all been in meetings, classes and other functions where we have been BORED out of our minds but we did not act out or misbehave. We followed the rules. In fact, I consider it a great time to daydream and think beyond the mundane and miniutae of the trivia I already know.
I wonder how many great ideas have been sparked from such seemingly unfertile grounds.
Perhaps this child needs to be kicked up a grade? Maybe a more effective teacher? If his testing shows he is beyond this grade level then he needs to move up...
I am sorry, I just have trouble understanding segregating your child from the general population in a public school atmosphere. It is a public school made of the general population. People who want to segregate their children choose private school.
I have walked the private school path when I had just one child when we lived in a town with few options. Private school is nice. You choose the population your child learns with--how your child is taught--and so much more. Gosh talk about control. I loved it!! I had a smart kid and private school was the end all to be all. Your kid can soar.
However my next child was an entirely different gift. He reminds me daily that there are others in the world with different needs, gifts and talents and that the bright and beautiful should not rule the world. Thus I celebrate public school and the general population that inhabit it...because the 14% AG population is the minority and no subgroup is the majority.
Now I do love my neighbor and do believe that the AG population should be served and be served better than they are now...yes even your cousin's child needs to get what he needs. However segregating that 14% from the general population is not the answer...
We have all been in
Tue, 08/12/2008 - 09:29 — Bob_SconceAs an adult, that's fine for an occasional meeting. When you're a 10-year-old kid and it's a regular thing, it's not quite as easy.
I don't think anybody's talking about segregating their children from the rest of the student population. I took advanced courses in middle and high school, but was still mixed in with other students during things like gym class, foreign languages, lunch, music, after school activities, etc....
As for my cousin's son, I didn't say he was misbehaving while the teacher was teaching -- he was doodling while she was teaching because he already knew the subject matter. (Tell me you haven't done *that* in a meeting.) It's when he finishes with his assigned work that he starts bugging other kids. [My cousin has been trying to work with the teacher to make sure that her son doesn't end up hating school just because the teacher appears incapable of challenging him.]
Bumping kids up to the next grade is, IMO, a bad idea -- those are the kids who inevitably get bullied in the next grade. Just group all the kids who are able to perform at a higher level together and teach them separately.
BTW, In Wake County, it's about 25% AG.
(NO SUBJECT)
Tue, 08/12/2008 - 21:26 — Voice_of_Reason_.
Correct Bob on both points
Tue, 08/12/2008 - 14:40 — Voice_of_Reason_When my daughter told me what AG kids were doing in her class in 4th grade, my eyes were opened. Building "Eraser People" while the teacher concentrated on the lower performers or reading comic books behind other books during reading is not what I consider education.
Ability Grouping and AG Children
Mon, 08/11/2008 - 08:07 — Voice_of_Reason_Perhaps the best way to sum up the research on ability grouping is to quote James and Chen-Lin Kulik:
"…the damage would be truly profound if…schools eliminated enriched and accelerated classes for their brightest learners. The achievement level of such students would fall dramatically if they were required to move at the common pace. No one can be certain that there would be a way to repair the harm that would be done. "
IS PROFOUND DAMAGE BEING DONE BY WCPSS TO OUR ACADEMICALLY GIFTED?
It's not bragging rights as some people think, it's educational rights!
So do we have anyone to defend not grouping?
Sun, 08/10/2008 - 13:38 — Voice_of_Reason_I have yet to hear in this blog any dissent at all in grouping children according to ability in Elementary School. The only benefit I see is to make it easier on Growth Management and administration at schools to assign students. Hmmmm, of course there is the allegation by H2O Guy that WCPSS does this for race balancing, again Hmmmm. So why do we allow this current system if GOOD RESEARCH SHOWS, and everyone seems to be OK with it? This costs little if anything to implement.
Grouping
Sun, 08/10/2008 - 21:49 — pmyet to hear in this blog any dissent at all in grouping children according to ability in Elementary School.
I don't think that there exists data that shows one way or the other that grouping helps or hinders.
if GOOD RESEARCH SHOWS
I couldn't find any such research. The most often cited study in my short search was that done by Slavin, 1990. Slavin seemd to find mixed results.
This costs little if anything to implement.
Some of the research concluded that teachers already in-class group significantly already. In fact, Slavin found that in-class grouping was the most effective method of grouping for math.
However, I would guess that the largest obsticle in any effort to organize a pro-grouping attitude in Wake will be the feeling that grouping singles out students by race. While I would believe that grouping would place a higher proportion of minorities in the lower achieving tracks, I would guess that is due to the whole "incomes trends with race as well as with achievement", not some inherant trouble with grouping.
Lastly, I wonder if the grouping arguement is just another attempt to show YR has weaknesses:
Yes, AG students suffer in MYR
Mon, 08/11/2008 - 11:44 — Lisa_BThere is NO QUESTION that the AG students suffer with multi-track YR schools.
In my opinion, that is just one of MANY reasons we need to abandon MYR for good in Wake County.
Grouping doesn't just benefit AG students---EVERYONE wins in that scenario.
There are many questions
Mon, 08/11/2008 - 13:38 — pmGrouping doesn't just benefit AG students---EVERYONE wins in that scenario.
Actually, that is not agreed upon. Many researchers find that while students assigned to the higher level courses do achieve at higher levels, those gains are off set by the decline in achievment of those students assigned to the lower level courses. This may be due to expectation, better teachers, better curriculum or other outside impactors.
Of the successful grouping strategies: in-class for math and a combination of Joplin/nongraded plans, grouping is fully compatable with the YR structure that we find here.
Here and here
AG students suffer with multi-track YR schools.
I am not familiar enough with the AG program to know if resources on a YR schedule impact the AG program/students/achievement.
Disclaimer: I have done very little study in this area and am open to moving back and forth on this debateas research and data come to light.
Real Life Experience Means Something To Me
Mon, 08/11/2008 - 16:15 — Lisa_BTo be honest, outdated studies don't impress me as much as actual experience.
When an AG student sits in a classroom where the teacher is teaching to the "average perfomer" (or realistically the LOWEST COMMON DENOMINATOR) the AG students get bored, tunes out, etc...
I've just seen first hand how beneficial it has been to group kids by ability for Math and LA, and it's night/day different from when a teacher has to teach all abilities in 1 class.
Serious
Mon, 08/11/2008 - 23:59 — pmoutdated studies don't impress me as much as actual experience.
However, your experience can not be proven, demonstrated or reproduced. Studies can.
When an AG student sits in a classroom
Again, whats with the AG student. I had thought that grouping was to help all students?
the LOWEST COMMON DENOMINATOR
Do you know what a "lowest common denominator" is?
Either way; Nice!
group kids by ability for Math
The "outdated studies" seem to confirm that in-class grouping of students is effective in math.
night/day different from when a teacher has to teach all abilities in 1 class.
Honest question. Lets say grouping were accepted with the caveat that the BEST teachers were assigned to the lower achieving classes. All the best methods and technology were utilized on them. How excited are you about grouping now?
Interesting....
Tue, 08/12/2008 - 17:55 — Bob_SconceHonest question. Lets say grouping were accepted with the caveat that
the BEST teachers were assigned to the lower achieving classes. All
the best methods and technology were utilized on them. How excited are
you about grouping now?
What do you do with teachers who are good at teaching AG kids but not so good at teaching others? Don't teachers get any say in who they can teach?
I would be annoyed if all the spending, best teachers, equipment, technology, etc... went to any one group of kids, whether that group is the AG class studying tensor calculus or the remedial fingerpainting class.
Lowest Common Denominator, from wikipedia: 'The term is used figuratively to refer to the "lowest"—least useful,
least advanced, or similar—member of a class or set which is common to
things that relate to members of that class.'
Fact vs Opinion
Wed, 08/13/2008 - 00:31 — pmWe all need to advocate for our own kids, because in reality, who else will???
No one disputes this.
My personal experience actually can be proven, demonstrated, and reproduced IF there are several classes in a grade.
Actually, you would need to submit some data to support it. Your telling me isn't sufficient.
grouping the kids for math and LA
The outdated studies that I showed support this. For math, grouoing students in-class seems to work best. For reading the feeling is that grouping them by ability, even across grade, works best.
Can't be done when you only have 1 class of students in a particular grade on a particular track.
Can be done, see above.
looking for a definition of "lowest common denominator"
I know what it means, just wondering if that is what you really meant to say:
Like I said, if you do or don't; Nice.
What do you do with teachers who are good at teaching AG kids but not so good at teaching others?
Provide me the measurement system for that ability.
Don't teachers get any say in who they can teach?
No, they don't. The prinipal does, or should. Perhaps in a union structured system they do, but otherwise no. In the same way that I don't get to pick the assignement that my boss gives me.
I would be annoyed if all the spending, best teachers, equipment,
technology, etc... went to any one group of kids, whether that group is
the AG class studying tensor calculus or the remedial fingerpainting
class.
Check out the results of the studies done on grouping.
Getting down to short lines
Wed, 08/13/2008 - 10:11 — Bob_Sconce(1) As to how you measure which teachers are good at teaching AG kids, I don't know and I think it's a red herring -- you don't need a way to measure, you just need a way to approximately order. And, that can be done by self-reports and observation. You don't need a test to tell you that Mrs. Sconce is much more talented than I am in certain areas, and vice-versa.
(2) "I don't get to pick the assignment that my boss gives me" -- I'm not talking about letting you have final say. But, if your boss wants to keep you happy (and, he should if he wants to keep you in your job), then he should take what you want to do into account. And, the more valuable you are, the more he should listen. The best bosses find ways to match their employee's career goals with the company's.
It may be that some districts choose to divert all their resources to the best-and-brightest. I'm not proposing that here and I have no reason to think that it happens automatically.
The value of emperical studies
Wed, 08/13/2008 - 06:09 — Dadof3Emperical studies have a role in forming an opinion but they do not produce undeniable results. There's a frightening notion behind the use of scientific method and the massive amount of uncontrolled variables regarding humans and the mathematically infinite number of possibles as you add each human data point to a study. The 20th century is littered of the hubris from that notion. You, of course, are free to reject anyone's anecdotes as well as studies. Studies are routinely rejected due to procedural or perceived bias. It's a fallacy to think of studies as the sole process towards establishing one's opinion on a matter.
Advocating For Our Kids
Tue, 08/12/2008 - 16:17 — Lisa_BTo avoid feeding this cyber-spat, let me just clarify the bottom line IN MY OPINION:
I feel that studies can be found to support your opinion, no matter WHAT your opinion is...I think we've all experienced enough of WCPSS trying to reference "studies" to justify their decisions. Unfortunately, when asked to reveal these studies, there becomes a disconnect in the dialog.
We all need to advocate for our own kids, because in reality, who else will???
I prefer to look at REAL EXPERIENCE to make my own judgements. My personal experience actually can be proven, demonstrated, and reproduced IF there are several classes in a grade. Can't be done when you only have 1 class of students in a particular grade on a particular track.
In my own REAL EXPERIENCE I have found that grouping the kids for math and LA has been much more beneficial to my AG kids than forcing 1 teacher to attempt to reach all levels.
Are you (PM) actually looking for a definition of "lowest common denominator", or have you already figured it out? I actually thought that was pretty basic, but I apologize if I added any confusion.
(and as far as the "best teacher" scenario, at this point I feel that Leesville has a school full of extremely qualified teachers so we're very fortunate. If MYR continues, I fear that won't be the case much longer since everyone is getting fed up with the mess created by MYR)
AG & YR
Mon, 08/11/2008 - 14:19 — Bob_SconceOne problem with AG students and YR schools is that the AG resource teacher is on a completely different schedule than all of his/her students. As a result, the AG teacher can be on a break when the students are in school and, therefore, the students don't have any AG instruction at that time. In a traditional calendar school, the AG teacher has the same breaks as the students.
(This appears to be just a problem with how WCPSS chooses to implement AG -- they could hire a 12-month teacher to do it who is there the entire time.)
I love this part in your second link (I haven't checked the first link):
Finally, the study found that even when mathematics course titles are the
same, the curricular goals emphasized by the teachers and the instructional
strategies they employed to meet those goals differ in ways that lead to unequal
opportunity to learn mathematics. For instance, it was found that high-ability
groups at the elementary, middle, or junior and high school levels progress
further in the school curriculum over the course of the year than low-ability
groups.
Uh, Duuh... If you learn faster, you can cover more of the curriculum. That's just "unequal ability" to learn mathemetics, not "unequal opportunity."
My biggest problem with not grouping by ability is that it uses my kids as resources to help lower-performing kids. We put a lot of effort into reading with them, looking over their homework and otherwise enriching their academic lives so they can do well and so they can proceed faster. But, the school district has other goals.
I want the district's attitude to be "Ok. You're working with your kid at home; we'll complement your efforts at school." Instead, they're saying, "Thanks for doing all that. Now, we're gonig to use your kids [and, indirectly your efforts] to help other kids whose parents don't care as much." Is it any wonder that people pull their kids out of public school?
wow 1987 and 1993 are the
Mon, 08/11/2008 - 14:18 — bigwinniewow 1987 and 1993 are the latest studies done? seems a little outdated to me, will have to research some more after car pool......I would hope there is more recent research on something as important as AG studies/gains/methods.
and to my knowledge there is NO written proof anywhere that shows MYR benefits ANYone.
Clarification
Mon, 08/11/2008 - 23:42 — pmas important as AG studies/gains/methods.
Grouping is not about AG. The fact that it is being used in such context is telling.
there is NO written proof anywhere that shows MYR benefits ANYone.
There is NO written proof anywhere that shows TRAD benefits ANYone.
But serious, she is right. There is no data that suggests either calendar is better suited to learning. Some feel that it helps with crowding. Others feel that, at least in Wake, crowding is overstated and/or YR is too expensive. Also, to be fair, there is a fair and significant distinction between YR and MYR.
I agree that YR calendars struggle when parental support is not there.
Also, to be fair, there is
Tue, 08/12/2008 - 07:00 — bigwinnieAlso, to be fair, there is a fair and significant distinction between YR and MYR.
yeah it's called LEGAL vs. (for now) ILLEGAL.
Some feel that it helps with crowding...Others feel that, at least in Wake, crowding is overstated and/or YR is too expensive
the numbers ARE out there, I have numbers showing our school at the SAME capacity of students for traditional calendar for at least two years now and if I can get the numbers for further back I am sure there are more. There are numbers from WCPSS' transportation people that Louise Lee has compiled showing transportation costs doubled....so for "some" and "others" should they choose to rely on outdated studies for the inof, I'm would HOPE to think that far more recent numbers would convince them of these facts.
back to AG, OF COURSE IT IT "TELLING" therein lies my concern which is why *I* personally keep comparing that and questioning the AG support etc. When WCPSS starts acting like they give a damn about education and the AG student, then I will perhaps be convinced to refocus. When it takes TWO years of badgering an AG resource person in middle school to test a child that has previously taken Iowas tests from k-3 and scored 99th percentile in both reading and math, 12 grade reading level in 2nd grade, etc and to be told that because he didn't take the (ridiculously EASY) EOG's in WCPSS in third grade, you really really don't expect me to think that this school system in concerned about education the top students can you? puhlease
Wasn't meant to antagonize
Wed, 08/13/2008 - 00:14 — pmyeah it's called LEGAL vs. (for now) ILLEGAL.
bigwinnie, I meant no antagonistic tone in my post. I was simply acknowledging that some folks feel that YR and MYR are seperate and unfair policies.
so for "some" and "others" should they choose to rely on outdated studies for the inof,
Again, simply acknowledging that there are seperate opinions. I am, in this case, saying that there are folks --I think you are one--who feel that the capacity numbers combined with the costs of YR don't support the MYR policy. In this specific case, I am not making a judgement statement.
WCPSS starts acting like they give a damn about education
Agree or disagree, it seems that they are acting like they care.
the AG student
I have admitted that I know very little of the AG program. I can not comment on your assesement of it.
TWO years of badgering an AG resource person in middle school to test a child
I agree. That seems unreasonable.
In the end, I am trying to provide the best education for my family while at the same time trying to see that the best education is provided to everyone. This may because I feel we are entitled to provide it or because that we as a society pay in the end when we don't. Either way, that you and I disagree should not mean that we can't get along.
pm, when you have WCPSS
Wed, 08/13/2008 - 09:10 — bigwinniepm, when you have WCPSS admitting; http://www.wcpss.net/news/2006_fact_or_fiction_round_one/ 19. The new year-round schools that opened in 2006-07 are under-enrolled. True
I am, in this case, saying that there are folks --I think you are one--who feel that the capacity numbers combined with the costs of YR don't support the MYR policy
it's not just "folks".
regardless, I am trying to provide the best education for my family while at the same time trying to see that the best education is provided to everyone
in this we CAN agree, however the choice of the word "entitled" bothers me some
en·ti·tle
this is already provided by the NC legislature and we all know already that is it not filled with EQUAL opportunities
115C‑1. General and uniform system of schools.
A general and uniform system of free public schools shall be provided throughout the State, wherein equal opportunities shall be provided for all students, in accordance with the provisions of Article IX of the Constitution of North Carolina. Tuition shall be free of charge to all children of the State, and to every person of the State less than 21 years old, who has not completed a standard high school course of study. There shall be operated in every local school administrative unit a uniform school term of nine months, without the levy of a State ad valorem tax therefor. (1955, c. 1372, art. 1, s. 1; 1963, c. 448, s. 24; 1971, c. 704, s. 1; c. 1231, s. 1; 1981, c. 423, s. 1; 1983 (Reg. Sess., 1984), c. 1034, s. 21; 1985, c. 780, s. 1.)
and thus we "mostly" agree....
AG and Goals/Strategies
Mon, 08/11/2008 - 15:05 — pmthe AG resource teacher is on a completely different schedule than all of his/her students.
Agreed. It would seem that if such a program were to be established, an AG teacher should be available everyday. Though again, I know very little of the program and how it is implemented.
That's just "unequal ability" to learn mathemetics, not "unequal opportunity."
Correct. It would seem that an advanced math student would have the ability to progress further "in the book" if you will. However, I think the main gyst of the statement centers on the fact that the lower level courses have different methods of teaching, not simply the same methods done slower.
In many cases, the delivery of material, the skill of the teacher delivering and the expectations of students recieving the material ALL impact how well the student achieves. The point of the study seems to be that the lower the level of the course, the lower the level of sophistication of the tools and, certainly, expectations.
uses my kids as resources to help lower-performing kids.
There may be educational value in having advanced students "teach". You never know the material so well as when you are expected to teach others.
Who does MYR Benefit?
Mon, 08/11/2008 - 13:23 — Forget_not_the_...Help me determine who benefits from MYR because after all this time I am having trouble remembering or determining which groups do benefit from YR......
Who does MYR Benefit?
Mon, 08/11/2008 - 13:23 — Forget_not_the_...Help me determine who benefits from MYR because after all this time I am having trouble remembering or determining which groups do benefit from YR......
Actually Yes
Sun, 08/10/2008 - 22:48 — Voice_of_Reason_You are correct to a point. The research I mentioned does support especially math and reading grouping. And I did see the research showing you shouldn't group children for all subjects as a group. I know that math and reading grouping is tried in some area schools and with good results. MYR makes this very difficult to do, they tried with limited success at Wakefield ES. What I also am proposing is to not go too far in teaching children above the standard course of study, but to supplement them with other areas such as science or language arts with the extra time. Salvin supports this type of grouping and recommends it.
You were correct in where I was going. But I would also like to point out that gifted students definitely benefit from ability grouping. So MYR is definitely a disadvantage to them.
Franklin Academy uses different tests
Sun, 08/10/2008 - 11:30 — Kent Misegades (not verified)The remark on the Franklin Academy is hard to believe. According to McGraw-Hill/SRA, 95% of the school's children meet or exceed reading EOG tests:
https://www.sraonline.com/download/DI/EfficacyReports/franklin_di1.pdf
Also in the same report, Franklin Academy students test in the 90th percentile or better on the Iowa Test of Basic Skills (ITBS), considered far tougher than our state's laughably simply ABCs tests.
The only criteria for entry into the Franklin Academy is to win the lottery for placement; there is no entrance exam as in some special charter schools. Demographics of the students is thus purely a function of who applies. Last fall, there were some 20 applicants for each open seat. Since the school expanded to K-12 a few years ago, nearly 100% of all incoming freshmen have graduated in four years, in strong contrast to sliding graduation rates in Wake County.
The new affordable community schools, the Thales Academies of Wake-Forest (now open) and Apex (opening in September) are essentially identical to the Franklin Academy.
www.thalesacademy.org
When Will We See Day 10 Numbers for YR Schools?
Sun, 08/10/2008 - 11:27 — Anonymous (not verified)Mr. Hui: Day 10 at YR schools was Friday. How soon will we see the day 10 numbers released? Thank you.