Here's the short version on the new student assignment model presented today by the Greater Raleigh Chamber of Commerce and the Wake Education Partnership.
Under the “controlled-choice model” developed by Michael Alves, every Wake County family would be offered a choice of at least 10 elementary schools, five middle schools and five high schools. That list would include at least two magnet schools, two year-round schools and two traditional-calendar schools.
It's being billed as a compromise that would allow more students to go to schools closer to where they live while allowing some diversity in schools by trying not to overload them with too many low-achieving students.
The key, according to the WEP is that list of schools. That list is supposed to implement the four guiding principles of proximity, stability, family choice and student achievement.
Tim Simmons, WEP vice president of communications, said the choices will often be the closest schools. If you click here on the plan's website, you'll get sample schools for each node that are all the closest schools. (They're using nodes for this list but they're saying it would be done away with once the model was adopted.)
Simmons said there will be times when the school system will not want to offer only the closest schools, such as in Southeast Raleigh. He said they'll have to provide choices that don't take away too many magnet application seats.
The choices offered are supposed to be such that it would help avoid putting too many low-achieving students in any particular school.
Simmons said it's the list of school choices that will be the primary usage of student achievement in the plan. While test scores will be a factor in the selection process for individual students, he said it ranks sixth on the priority list, well below the top factor of proximity.
Despite offering all the choices, Simmons says SAS ran the data for them and indicated it wouldn't cost more in transportation dollars.
Now the question is whether the school board will embrace the model.
Some things to consider are that the Alves plan still doesn't include base assignments. Alves goes into detail in the report why he feels base assignments are no longer practical for a fast-growing district like Wake.
Additionally, the WEP and Chamber are going out of their way to say this is not a zone plan, a charge that likely will be hurled by critics who point to the Oct. 5 resolution that killed the Tedesco zone plan. What the Alves plan has are three administrative areas of roughly equal demographics that Simmons said the school board can use if it wants.
Simmons said the three admin areas are primarily there to guard against possible lawsuits. He said the areas themselves don't restrict any of the choices that would be offered to families.
UPDATE
Click here to read the online story.
BTW, school board vice chairwoman Debra Goldman is at the press briefing. I don't yet see any of the other board members here.
In case you missed the link in the post to view the proposal, click here.
Tweaked wording to say the choices would be at least 10 elementary, 5 middle and 5 high schools.
Here's a statement from Superintendent Tony Tata on today's proposal:
"I want to thank the Greater Raleigh Chamber of Commerce and the Wake Education Partnership for sponsoring Mr. Alves’ work on this proposal. Right now I am collecting a variety of data and suggestions regarding our approach to long-term student assignment and will use the information presented to us as another input on my listening tour. At the appropriate time, the Wake County Public School System team will develop the ultimate plan which we will deliver to the Board of Education for their review, input and approval.
This is a highly complex and emotional challenge that requires input and discussion from the entire community in order for us to craft a solution that truly meets the needs of all families in Wake County. The Chamber and Wake Ed Partnership’s proposal today will contribute to our planning process as we develop our student assignment plans in the months ahead."

Comments
continuation of conversation
Thu, 02/17/2011 - 00:00 — jenmanSolon--
That is an interesting point about not all neighborhoods being full of kids. I've lived in two neighborhoods in Raleigh in the past 12 years and both were chock full of kids. Most of the neighborhoods around me are as well.
Our street of 14 houses has 23 school age children. Of the 15 elem kids, 10 go to the trad option, 4 go to the yr and 1 is at a charter. We also have 2 teachers on our street from the trad es. The middle school and high school kids are a little more fragmented but for the most part the families are in the yr and trad options. We are a very close knit street and several of the kids are in the same sports activities as well. Our street is a bit unusual, even for this very family oriented neighborhood.
Thanks for sharing your perspective. It is certainly something to keep in mind.
<This is a continuation of a
Wed, 02/16/2011 - 21:57 — jeffrey1<This is a continuation of a discussion from earlier in the thread and is my response to user12345's last post>
My point is that you can not depend on schools to be the tool to do that with home school, charter school, magnet school and private school now available.
Once again, I will refer to statistics, which seem to escape your logic. In most districts in the United States, between 91 and 93 percent of ALL students attend public schools. Wake County actually was at the level before racial and then diversity busing went into effect. Now Wake County is at 83% -- still a relatively high number. That means that in Wake County, which has an abundance of choice, more than 4 out of every 5 students are going to public schools.
Since you mentioned magnet schools, let's take a look at that number. WCPSS has one of the best magnet programs in the country, and yet only 8% of students attend magnets by application (the rest are base assigned). That means only 6.6% (.83 * .08) of ALL students in Wake County chose a magnet school.
So in Wake County, with its abundance of choice, we still have more than 75% of students attending a neighborhood (non magnet) public school. Since most districts in the country do not offer nearly the level of choice that we do in Wake, it is safe to assume that most districts will exceed Wake's rate of enrollment for neighborhood schools.
Despite your statements to the contrary, the numbers show that the neighborhood school concept has NOT passed us by, is NOT a relic from the 1950s, and is indeed, alive and well. The numbers don't lie, and when forced to choose between your unsubstantiated claims and the facts, I'll stick with the facts.
One final point, nowhere did I say we should DEPEND on schools to help tie neighborhoods together. It is but one of many factors.
If I cover up seven of the choices, would that make you feel more comfortable having three only choices? We could do that for people like you.
Now you're just being an ASS!
Continuation of discussion from earlier in thread
Wed, 02/16/2011 - 21:40 — jeffrey1<This is a continuation of a discussion from earlier in the thread and is my response to magnetParent's last post>
Of those non-magnet schools you forgot to take into account those that opt out of their base school calendar to go to the alternative (trad -> YR or YR -> trad). That brings it down to every 2 out of 4 students.
First, your counting all the students that were forced into YR three years ago. I don't believe that is an accurate representation of those that truly want to go to YR. If you really want to include those numbers, you should go back and use the numbers when YR was tuly a choice, before any base assignments to YR.
Second, there is no way that 25% of ALL students (not just WCPSS) would choose a YR public school.
Third, if you want to use post 2007 numbers, you have to acknowledge that entire neighborhoods moved from their traditional base school to their YR base school. I other words, the YR school did not break up the neighborhood, it just moved the neighborhood from school to another.
As Alves said, 80% will get in their first choice and 93% in their first or second.
When we first started talking about attending your closest school, WEP was quick to produce a study showing that some schools would be at nearly 200% of capacity, while others would be at 50% capacity. Given that study, it is highly unlikely that Alves estimates are even close to reality. Alves plan guarantees seats to those that live within 1.5 miles of a school. In many cases, there are enough students living within 1.5 miles of a school to exceed capactity, without even considering others that would make that school their first choice.
If you take a look at Cambridge MA, which only had about a dozen schools total, the acceptance rate was less than 80% for the first choice. I can't imagine improving that figure in a district the size of Wake.
Then there is the "unknown" factor of taking achievement into consideration. I believe that the achievement factor has so far not received the attention that it deserves from busing opponents, and will become a stumbling block for this plan. There is no way that 80% of parents will receive their first choice, and 93% will receive their second choice if the achievement goals are adhered to.
For those familes, having their kids go to the same school as the rest of the neighborhood is not important and there is nothing wrong with that.
I agree.
Let's make it easier -
Wed, 02/16/2011 - 23:36 — magnetParentLet's make it easier - according to the 2009 reports, 21.9% of WCPSS students attended their school by choice. This includes magnets, calendar options, transfers, NCLB and year-round. Using those numbers, 64.7% attend their neighborhood school ((1 - 0.22) / (1 / 0.83)). So, approximately 13 out of 20. Better?
"In many cases, there are enough students living within 1.5 miles of a school to exceed capacity,"
I cannot agree with you here. That implies that there are 1000 students in a 1.5 mile radius of a school. That is pretty high density. Do you have any data to back that up? Besides, the Alves plan discusses setting aside enough seats to accomodate the first priorities - siblings and walkzone students. If what you said were true, there would be schools that are setting aside all of their seats. I really doubt there is a single school with that scenario.
Let's make it easier Thanks
Thu, 02/17/2011 - 01:50 — jeffrey1Let's make it easier
Thanks for making that easier (although you just had to round 21.9% to 22% didn't you?). I believe that 64.7% (roughly 2/3) of students attending the local neighborhood schools is of significant benefit to communities that value common neighborhood schools, and will likely be much lower with the Alves choices. I would argue that the percentage of students attending the local neighborhood school is likely slightly higher than 64.7% in the suburbs, because Options 9 (out of county), H (homeless), U (end of year), and W (NCLB), totaling 1.1% of students are unlikely to occur in many of the neighborhoods in Wake.
Better?
Yes, thank you.
I cannot agree with you here. That implies that there are 1000 students in a 1.5 mile radius of a school.
If I can borrow a page from your book, let's make it easier. People living within 1.5 miles of a given school are enclosed in an area of 7.1 square miles (pi * r * r). In the Town of Cary, the population density is 3,141 per square mile, so there are 22,301 people living within 1.5 miles of a given school. Furthermore in Cary, 29.1% of citizens are under the age of 18, so we can calculate that there are 6,490 kids under the age of 18 living within 1.5 miles of a given school. If we assume that those kids are equally distributed over the ages of 0-17, approximately 1/3 will be ES age, 1/6 will be MS age, and 1/6 will be HS age. This gives us 2,163 ES-aged children, 1,082 MS-aged children, and 1,082 HS-aged children all living within 1.5 miles of a given school. Even if we use your figure of just 64.7% of students attending school by assignment, that still leaves us with 1,400 ES-aged kids trying to get into the local ES school. Better? :-)
New Math
Thu, 02/17/2011 - 13:08 — magnetParentWell, it is actually 7.0685834625 square miles (although you just had to round up to 7.1, didn't you?)
That doesn't take into account the number of families in that 1.5 sq mile radius that do not want to choose their closest school as their first choice, or prefer a different calendar, nor does it take into account the schools that are within 1.5 miles of each other, causing an overlap of 1.5 sq mile population. (Penny Rd, Oak Grove and West Lake, Middle Creek are examples).
Table 6. Percent of Students Attending Schools within a Walk Zone (1.5 miles).
Level Percent of Students
Elementary 30.9%
Middle School 13.1%
High School 11.9%
So, that would say, on average, 31% of an elementary school is walk zone (which is very close to my numbers if you don't deduct magnet/transfer students).
Math Error
Thu, 02/17/2011 - 19:35 — jeffrey1First I got my data from wikipedia. I believe that the data you referenced from the Town of Cary's website was correct for the population, but the land area included area outside the town limits that are either within the Cary Panning Boundary or with the Cary ETJ.
I googled additional sources on Cary's density, and several other sources confirmed that the density was over 3000/square mile, although there were some differences.
Second, you introduced a math error in your calculation. My 29.1% figure for those under the age of 18 include those from birth to pre-K. Your figure of 16.5 percent is only for school aged children. When I used 1/3 for my ES aged estimate, it was because the 6 years of ES represent 1/3 of the kids under 18 (29.1%). If you use the school age figure (16.5%), then you should use 6/13 of that number to represent the ES aged children, 3/13 to represent the MS aged kids, and 4/13 to represent the HS kids.
BTW, the 1/6 that I assigned to MS was correct, but I should have used a fraction of 2/9 for HS aged kids.
Now I see where you went
Thu, 02/17/2011 - 21:13 — magnetParentNow I see where you went wrong. The population in 2000 was 94536 with a density of 2246 per sq mile. And the 2009 population was 136637. You extrapolated from that 42 sq miles in area for the Town of Cary (94536/2246) and assumed 136,637/42 to get a density of 3200 (not sure how you got 3141, but its close). However, you assumed wrong that the size of Cary did not change between 2000 and 2009. The report in townofcary.org says that the 2009 size is 55.34 sq miles. It specifically mentions its growth due to annexation of land to increase it to that size:
"The Town of Cary’s corporate limits grew by 25.09 square miles as a result of annexations between 1990 and 2009. These annexations increased the Town’s population as citizens who were formerly part of unincorporated Wake County became residents of Cary."
Table Five: Town of Cary Growth in Land Area over Time,
1980-2009
1980 Land 1990 Land 2009 Land Percent (%)
Area Area Area Change 1990-
2009
Town of 9.86 square 30.25 square 55.34 square 83%
Cary miles miles miles
So even though wiki says the 2000 population had 29.1% children under the age of 18, it does not specify school age children. The townofcary.org report specifically says 16.5% school age children so I will stick to that number. I will adjust the numbers based on my error on your 1/3,1/6,1/6 and change it to 6/13, 3/13, 4/13 which will adjust the numbers to 869, 434 and 579 for ES, MS and HS respectively. Keeping in mind that is before adjusting for the unknowns - how many will not request their closest school as first choice and/or the ones that want the alternative calendar as well as the "walk-zone overlap" caused by schools in close proximity.
Your original claim of 2,163 ES-aged children, 1,082 MS-aged children, and 1,082 HS-aged children was so off the mark. It doesn't even make sense. (You also picked the most dense city in Wake County, so it certainly would be even less of an issue elsewhere)
Feel free to look at the townofcary.org document yourself. I would think that their numbers would be more accurate than what "someone" writes in wiki.
That's funny. You make a
Thu, 02/17/2011 - 22:06 — jeffrey1That's funny. You make a critical math error, and tell me you see where I went wrong.
I did not extrapolate anything! I did not assume anything! I have at least a dozen different sources specifying a population density between 2900 and 3200. I'll stick with my density.
But in case you need even more evidence. The citizens reassigned from Davis Drive Elementary School in Cary did their own study and actually determined that there were enough students within 1 mile of the school to populate the entire ES.
Look, density is an average number. When you use your square mile figure, it includes land that is actually covered by water. It includes land on the outer parts of Cary that are not nearly as dense. It includes land within the Cary Planning Boundary that are not included in the calculation of Cary's population. Wiki distinguishes between total Area, land Area, and area covered by water. The Town of Cary does not. There are areas within Cary that far exceed a density of 3141 per square mile.
You want to use 16.5% school aged children instead of 29.1% under the age of 18. That's fine. I suppose you decided to use that because it generated better results for you. But then that means that 12.6% of the population is aged 0-4. And in 5 years those kids will all be in ES, and that means that we'll be filling an ES within an even smaller radius than 1.5 miles. You can't have it both ways.
And even if we accept your numbers of 869 ES within 1.5 miles of a school (and I most certainly do not), that exceeds the capacity at all of the following CARY schools: Adams, Briarcliff, Carpenter, Cary, Davis Drive, Farmington Woods, Kingswood, Northwoods, and Reedy Creek.
Look. I live in Cary. I've lived in Cary for 20 years. We put $500,000 homes on an 8000 square foot lot with less than 10 feet in between homes. The population is dense.
And BTW, the population density of Raleigh is 2988/square mile. So if I picked the densest city in Wake, what does that tell you about Cary?
Get off your high horse
Thu, 02/17/2011 - 23:47 — magnetParentGet off your high horse about the "critical math error" - I adjusted my numbers accordingly.
I don't know what your dozen of resources is but the 2000 Census lists Cary at a density of 2246 with a total of 42 sq miles. The size of Cary has increased by both population (in 2009 it was 136000) and size (in 2009 it was 55.34 sq miles). The density in 2009 was 2457 per sq mile. Sorry if you don't like the facts, but it is what it is.
I took a look at Davis Dr and drew a 1.5 mile circle around it - and guess what - there are 4 other elementary schools within 1.5 miles of Davis Dr ES. That is a lot of overlap of their walk-zone circles. For that matter, if two schools are 3 miles apart from each other there will be some overlap. (Lucky to those who have multiple walk zones choices). There are 6 other schools that are greater than 1.5 miles but less than 3 miles from Davis Dr. That is A LOT of overlap. I don't think they have anything to worry about.
Not on a high horse. Just
Fri, 02/18/2011 - 04:15 — jeffrey1Not on a high horse. Just don't like being accused of making an error in methodology, and then guessing (wrongly) at that methodology. And yes, assuming that only 1/3 of school aged children go to ES was a critical error.
The density that I reported (3141/square mile) is the density of the areas inhabited by people within the city limits of Cary, and is represenative of the density for the average resident. This figure was corroborated by at least a dozen different websites. I'm guessing that your calculated figure takes into account water, industrial areas, and other large, uninhabitable areas, and while it represents an average density for the entire city, it is not representative of densities experienced by most residents of Cary.
In several other blog posts on this forum, I showed that the average distance from any location in Wake County to an ES is 1.8 miles. Obviously that is not true for everyone, but it is accurate for the majority of ES kids in Wake County.
I took a look at Davis Dr and drew a 1.5 mile circle around it - and guess what - there are 4 other elementary schools within 1.5 miles of Davis Dr ES.
First I call BS. Using Google Maps Distance Calculator, there is only 1 school - Turner Creek ES at 1.443 miles -- that is within 1.5 miles of Davis Drive ES.
BUT... I did not say within 1.5 miles of Davis Drive ES - I said within 1 mile of the school. A 1 mile radius is only 3.14 square miles. as opposed to the 7.1 square miles with a 1.5 mile radius. Big Difference! And people living within 1 mile of Davis Drive were reassigned to Laurel Park because of capacity issues.
For that matter, if two schools are 3 miles apart from each other there will be some overlap.
No there will not be any overlap. Two circles, each with a radius of 1.5, whose centers are a distance of 3 from each other, will only intersect in at one point. And a point, by definition, has no area. Another math (i.e. geometry) error.
Finally, you did not challenge the fact that if you assume that only 16.5% of Cary's population is school age, then Cary is headed for a massive influx of ES aged children in the next 5 years, which will further erode the ability of WCPSS to make the guaranteed assignments in the Alves plan.
And you did not challenge Raleigh's reported density. It is more than your calculated density for Cary, which goes against your claim that Cary is the densest city in the county. BTW I do think that Cary is the densest city in the county, which would imply that it's density is greater than Raleigh's reported residential density of 2988.
If that value is
Fri, 02/18/2011 - 07:28 — magnetParentIf that value is corroborated by at least a dozen websites, why can't you point me to one that does? It is certainly not in wiki (the only website you mentioned) and the 2000 Census. Sure there are the factors of lakes and roads and businesses to offset pockets of density, but did you account for the same when calculating the sq miles inside the walk zone? That is why I used the average given by the town of Cary.
You accused me of using the ETJ or Cary Planning Boundary for the size of Cary instead of acknowledging that it has grown. I have also lived in Cary and I also avoided being annexed by Cary - you know very well that the size of Cary grows every year. The numbers I gave you were from the townofcary.org web page. I doubt it is inaccurate.
"First I call BS. Using Google Maps Distance Calculator, there is only 1 school - Turner Creek ES at 1.443 miles -- that is within 1.5 miles of Davis Drive ES."
I did not know about Google Distance Calculator - cool tool. I relied on the wcpss maps, in error. Recalculating, the following schools have an overlap of its 1.5 mile circle with Davis Drive:
(notice, I did not include anything that was exactly 3 miles distance so I am not accused of a math error, even though if there was a house exactly 3 miles from two different schools they would get options for both walk zones - or would you say that it depends on where their front door is? A point may not have an area, but it could have a house. Change it to 2.99999999999 miles... better?)
Again, Davis Dr does not have anything to worry about.
I did not challenge the influx of preschoolers because we don't have the data to confirm it. The townofcary.org also stated that the fastest growing population in Cary was in the retirement age.
Finally, I did not challenge the Raleigh claim because I frankly don't have any more time to spend on this frivolous claim. Other factors, such as the median age of Raleigh residents, the number DINKs, OINKs, POOKs, WOOFs, and FISTs, and the density of schools walk zones (as opposed to high volume of business) affect whether there is a concern.
Perhaps they should change the walkzone limits to 1 mile... That's fine with me. (I still don't have any confirmation on whether the Alves plan was referring to "as a crow flies" vs "driving distance", so this may all be a moot point)
I'm sorry that you think
Fri, 02/18/2011 - 21:40 — jeffrey1I'm sorry that you think this is a frivolous claim.
I have legitimate concerns about whether the Alves plan can be implemented to the satisfaction of Wake families. My concern was based on the experiences of Davis Drive ES. That school has been historicaly overenrolled. Recently, many families that lived within 1.5 miles of that school were forced out. Many of those familes that were forced out actually walked to school.
Knowing that building lots in Cary have become smaller and smaller, and knowing that there was not anything unusual about the residential area around Davis Drive, I don't believe my concerns about the Alves plan are unwarranted.
You calculated average density based on population and total square miles - That's fine. I don't think you would disagree that the actual density will be much larger in some areas, and considerably smaller in some areas.
I used the Google Maps Area Calculator, and calculated the density in my neighborhood of 200+ homes to be about 3000/square mile. And the lots in my neighborhood range from 1/3 to 2/3 of an acre.
I won't continue to argue our differences of opinion on the density of Cary.
With regards to future years in Cary, I was trying to reconcile the difference between my statistic of 29.1% of the populaton under the age of 18, and your statistic of 16.5% of the population as school aged. If we accept both of those numbers, that means that currently, 12.6% of the population is btween the ages of newborn and 5. In 5 years, ALL of those kids will be in ES. Using 6/13 as a ratio, only 7.6% of the population is currently enrolled in ES. Again I don't think that concern is unwarranted.
Finally, I'm not sure why you keep saying that Davis Drive ES has nothing to worry about. Many in the Davis Drive community have already been affected. Saying that they have nothing to worry about will be of little consolation to them.
"I used the Google Maps Area
Sat, 02/19/2011 - 02:20 — magnetParent"I used the Google Maps Area Calculator, and calculated the density in my neighborhood of 200+ homes to be about 3000/square mile. And the lots in my neighborhood range from 1/3 to 2/3 of an acre."
A statement like that tells me that you think that the density of your neighborhood reflects the density of the entire walk-zone area around the school. Now, obviously, the area of the school property has no residents, the farm land south of Davis Dr has no (or very little) residents, The shopping center north of DDES has no residents. The farm area west of Rigsbee Farm subdivision has no/very few residents. The soccer field across from DDES has no residents. So you cannot assume your neighborhood density indicates the density of the walk zone.
Now. Draw a circle of radius 1.5 miles around DDES. Now, draw a circle of radius 1.5 miles around Turner Creek ES. Color in the intersecting section. It is about 2 sq miles of residents that could choose DDES OR Turner Creek ES as their walk zone choice. Draw another circle of 1.5 miles around Salem ES. That overlapping section could choose betwee DDES and Salem ES. And some are in the overlap section that has a choice of 3 schools in their walk-zone area. So, that density in that approx 2+ sq miles does not have to go to Davis Dr ES. In fact, some of those neighborhoods are closer to Turner Creek. I listed 8 schools that will provide some sort of overlap with the walk zone area of Davis Dr. That is why I said that they really do not need to worry. Many years ago when Davis Dr subdivisions were trying to pull their neighborhood in to DDES, some of the other schools were not built yet. Now they are there and they help reduce the capacity at Davis.
One other suggestion, if there are so many neighborhoods around a school that is such high density, maybe the school should be changed to year round. That would help...
A statement like that tells
Sun, 02/20/2011 - 04:10 — jeffrey1A statement like that tells me that you think that the density of your neighborhood reflects the density of the entire walk-zone area around the school.
Once again, you are making a guess at what I might be thinking. Here's a suggestion: If you don't know, ask me what I am thinking.
No I do not believe that my neighborhood reflects the density of the entire walk-zone area around a school. The key point in my statement was that the homes are on 1/3 - 2/3 acre lots. The neighborhood includes significant amounts of open area, and is likely one of the least dense residential areas in Cary. And still it has a density of 3000/square mile. What I had hoped that that statement would tell you is that once we start building homes on 8000 square foot lots, and once we start building condos, townhouses, and apartment buildings, density is going to increase significantly. That's what the statement should have told you.
Here's another example of how quickly density can increase. An urban community, Veridea, is being planned for the Town of Apex. Veridea will be developed on 1000 acres, and will include 8000 residential units, consisting of town homes and single family homes. Since there are 640 acres/square mile, Veridea will be encompass 1.5625 square miles. The average household in Apex is 2.73 persons, so 21,840 people will reside in Veridea when completed. That works out to a density of 13,978 /square mile!
The conclusion you should draw is that residential communities are dense. Especially when you have apartment buildings and town homes in the mix. When a school's walk zone consists primarily of residential units, with little industrial property, it will be difficult to guarantee school assignments to everyone living within 1.5 miles of a school, even with overlaps.
Your analysis of schools close to DDES is flawed. Turner Creek, the school closest to Davis Drive, is on the other side of a major thoroughfare, Rt 55. than is Davis Drive. In fact, Turner Creek does not have any base assignments east of 55. There's no way that people living on the east side of 55 would ever consider Turner Creek as a possible choice.
Similarly, other schools are divided by other thorougfares, so that even if a family lives within 1.5 miles of a school, they would never consider attending it.
Also, with many of the schools you cite as having an overlapping walk zone with Davis Drive, the overlap is so small as to be insignificant. For two schools that are a distance of c from each other, the percentage reduction p in each school's walk zone, is given by:
p = (0.5/pi) * (q-sin(q)) where q = 2*ArcCos(c/3)
So, two schools that are 2 miles apart will see the size of the walk zone decrease by just 10%. Two schoos that are 2.5 miles apart will see their walk zone reduced by just 4%.
Many years ago when Davis Dr subdivisions were trying to pull their neighborhood in to DDES, some of the other schools were not built yet. Now they are there and they help reduce the capacity at Davis.
Not true. When DDES was reasigned, each one of those schools (with the exception of Laurel Park, which is where DDES was reassigned) was not only built, but at or over capacity.
One other suggestion, if there are so many neighborhoods around a school that is such high density, maybe the school should be changed to year round. That would help...
Sounds like something the old boards would have done. I'd prefer to see what the families want before making that change.
Mathtastic!
Thu, 02/17/2011 - 08:03 — chaboardI love that last paragraph!
One last piece to include though....in that same Town of Cary what's the ES density on the same scale - how many ES's per 7.1 square miles? I'm genuinely curious.
Cambridge < 80% first choice
Wed, 02/16/2011 - 23:03 — Solon77It will all depend on the priority of the parents. Cambridge is a small enough area that proximity is not an important factor in parents deciding which school would be their first choice. The Cambridge parents choice would be more centered around programs a school has has to offer and whether it is deemed to be a good school. In wcpss - the preference is more towards proximity.
priorities
Wed, 02/16/2011 - 15:43 — user12345They may be lazy and rude but they go to their neighborhood school and have long summer which is what school is all about, right?
FEASTERVILLE, Pa. – A high school English teacher in suburban Philadelphia who was suspended for a profanity-laced blog in which she called her young charges "disengaged, lazy whiners" is driving a sensation by daring to ask: Why are today's students unmotivated — and what's wrong with calling them out?
...http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110216/ap_on_hi_te/us_teacher_suspended_blog
...
Mon, 02/14/2011 - 14:51 — SideburnsSo, you keep everything as is (allow grandfathering for all) and continue the guise with incoming Kindergartners. From the plan:
"Therefore in order to ensure that these “at risk” children are given an equal opportunity to learn, system administrator would make a determination as to the number of at-risk kindergarten applicants that are in the applicant pool of each “batch” application cycle, and based on this determination a proportionate number of seats would be allocated in each school for these students."
This also would occur with the middle school transition:
"These clusters of secondary feeder schools would be established in each area, and they would be created in a way that ensured that all of the secondary schools had an entry-grade enrollment of students with a similar range of achievement levels."
the feeder pattern thing
Mon, 02/14/2011 - 18:11 — jenmanthe feeder pattern thing concerns me too. If they are going to try to balance achievement levels at middle and high schools, what kind of crazy combinations of schools will they have feeding into them? I just keep having these flashbacks to Dulaney and what he would do and what diversity policy supporters would most likely do. It isn't pretty. ;-)
If the elementary schools
Mon, 02/14/2011 - 18:28 — magnetParentIf the elementary schools feeding into the middle schools have balanced achievement levels, wouldn't the middle schools have a similar balance? And same for high school? I know I am simplifying it a little too much, but I don't think they have to do anything special to get there. That being said, the feeder middle school might work for some, but others might find that they actually live closer to a different middle school. So I don't expect that everyone is going to rely on the feeder patterns.
You're right about the
Mon, 02/14/2011 - 18:56 — jenmanYou're right about the middle schools feeding into the high schools. If the MS are balanced, then the HS should be too. But what elem schools will they have to feed into a ms to get the ms balanced?
As things stand right now, the higher the F&R of a school, the lower the overall performance of the school. So in order to make the MS balanced achievement-wise, they are going to have to put some high poverty schools and low poverty schools together in each middle school.
Are they really going to let the most logical feeder patterns if it results in unbalanced schools? For instance, kids who live near Fox Road elem. They are closest to Fox Road ES and to E Millbrook MS. Most of the ES closest to E Millbrook are higher poverty. Certainly higher poverty than the ES that are closest to Wakefield MS. Will they really let the logical ES feed into Wakefield, or will they throw in Fox Road (or a similar school) into Wakefield for balance?
This really goes back to a comment you made somewhere here. You said you weren't convinced that this plan will bring diversity. I don't think it will bring the kind of diversity that diversity supporters, such as the minority 4 or Barber are wanting.
An alternative?
Mon, 02/14/2011 - 19:29 — Dove314Perhaps you are missing an alternative -- shouldn't we be intent on implementing programs that would improve student achievement at higher poverty schools like Fox Road such that it is a non-issue in terms of balancing achievement across schools. Are you suggesting that such an effort is not underway or that it will outstrip any reassignment plan implemented in the next year? Even if it does, what difference does it make where the Fox Road kids go to MS? We should be helping them wherever they may be whether in ES or MS and whether at Wakefield or East Millbrook or whatever other MS.
Why are we expending so much more effort and interest on where those higher poverty kids at Fox Road will go to middle school instead of putting the emphasis on what will insure they succeed no matter where they go to MS? According to a report on WCPSS website, Fox Road is and has been a Title 1 school, now in it's second year. So those kids are already allowed to transfer to somewhere. F&R students who are not meeting AYP and stay are already being offered SES at a cost of ~$1422 per student (paid for by NCLB Title 1 funds). Participation rates for the SES were only between 28 to 35% among those eligible for SES. The report indicates a plethora of 47 vendors offering SES but only 14 of which were selected by parents. Thirteen SES providers offered SES services for reading and mathematics and one focused only on reading. Two of the providers provided services online, with the remainder offered face-to-face instruction. Staff had several specific recommendations including improving the data recording and ability to follow a given student across systems to put the complete picture of their data together. This report was the first of three to be published between now and June which are trying to ascertain what worked and what hasn't in these existing and ongoing attempts to help children on F&L improve.
These kinds of efforts are so much more important than rearranging deck chairs, errr students. I sometimes think the best assignment plan would be to leave all assignments alone for 3 years and just focus on achievement and helping the kids who need it.
Of course I agree that we
Tue, 02/15/2011 - 14:08 — jenmanOf course I agree that we need to be focused on raising achievement at lower performing schools. But that doesn't take away the ability for this plan to be manipulated--we need to be mindful of that as they set up the feeder patterns.
What I don't want to happen is if you pick Fox Road, you'll get your proximity now but you'll feed into Wakefield MS, which is much farther away. Yyou can try to apply for East Millbrook when the time comes, but even though it is your closest MS you might not get it because the people in the feeder pattern will have priority along with anybody who is within 1.5 miles of the school. So there goes either your proximity or your feeder pattern.
I could absolutely see this being the way things are set up if certain people have their way. They'd still be rearranging the deck chairs. It is something we need to be mindful of.
Just trying to understand.
Tue, 02/15/2011 - 17:06 — Dove314so you want to eliminate choice in an assignment model as to include choice is to introduce a degree of uncertainty which could, in theory, be used to send a child currently in ES at Fox Road to anywhere beside East Millbrook (assumed to be their closest school), one of those choices being Wakefield MS? Is it your contention that they should all be going to East Millbrook?
In addition, am I correct that you're making the following assumptions:
1. That rising 6th Graders from Fox Road will have a high proportion of ED, a high proportion of ethnic minorities, and a high proportion of underachieving students that will be an ongoing issue for the foreseeable future?
2. As a result, since they aren't required to go to East Millbrook, any choice algorithm would then result in the Fox Road cohort of underperforming children not all going to East Millbrook and instead being spread across some of the alternate choices available, presumably one of the top 3 choices of their parents (i.e. these children would not receive their first choice for the subset who put East Millbrook first)? And that this would thus require some of those children to go to a school further away but within their "choice zone" for the transition from ES to MS? And that just by the very act of going to a MS that is further away than East Millbrook, they will continue to underachieve?
For all of those assumptions to be true, don't you have to hold one additional assumption -- that despite hiring Tata, despite EDSATF, despite EVAAS, despite the Renaissance programs, despite any additional efforts that may be implemented, that student achievement for Fox Road students will never get any better? Because if you improve the levels of achievement at Fox Road, then achievement becomes a non-issue in their MS assignment. Does this mean that we really don't have any viable solutions to helping underachieving students in an underperforming school?
For all of those assumptions
Tue, 02/15/2011 - 18:07 — jenmanFor all of those assumptions to be true, don't you have to hold one additional assumption -- that despite hiring Tata, despite EDSATF, despite EVAAS, despite the Renaissance programs, despite any additional efforts that may be implemented, that student achievement for Fox Road students will never get any better? Because if you improve the levels of achievement at Fox Road, then achievement becomes a non-issue in their MS assignment. Does this mean that we really don't have any viable solutions to helping underachieving students in an underperforming school?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I forgot to address this part of your post. I think that student achievement for low income and minority students will get better, but that's not really what this assignment policy is about. When WCPSS knew they could no longer bus for race, they found the next closest thing--F&R status. Now that they cannot bus for F&R status, they have found the next closest thing--achievement levels. Unfortunately the current state of things in Wake County is that our poverty is mostly black and latino and our ED students pass the EOGs at a much lower rate than our NED counterparts.
Even if our high poverty, mostly minority schools were performing quite well, I don't think that would please many diversity supporters. Already we are seeing arguments from some that Walnut Creek won't give those kids the exposure to different cultures that they need to compete in a global environment. Everytime this issue gets discussed, it turns into being about racial diversity even though it isn't supposed to be--it's supposed to be about SES diversity but the two cannot be divorced. There's just no getting around the fact that at the crux of it all, this is really about race and not SES or achievement.
Achievement
Tue, 02/15/2011 - 19:18 — Dove314Given I'm effectively assignment neutral, I disagree with some of your premise. If the students are at or above expected achievement, it undercuts any need to assign students to any specific school -- comes back to make all schools into good schools and assignment becomes largely irrelevant.
There are likely some who support the diversity policy only as it existed in prior to Jan 2010. But I think there are a large group of people who have concerns about the creation of high poverty, mostly minority schools like Walnut Creek under a neighborhood and potentially any community/zone model who would be thrilled if WCPSS was effective in improving and maintaining achievement in high poverty, mostly minority schools regardless of assignment. There is a concern which goes largely unheeded as to whether WCPSS is capable of doing this given it has been a struggle some many other places in the nation. Show everyone it isn't a problem here in WCPSS and the issue is addressed, the concern alleviated. Try telling everyone it can't be worse in an underachieving neighborhood school(s) with only a calendar option choice and that WCPSS will work on improving achievement at some time point in the future, -- that tends to increase resistance, not alleviate concern. It leaves the choices for the neighborhoods around these schools as what everyone currently has now (with or without busing as the picture is muddled now which isn't working) or what each parent with this concern knows hasn't worked in the past and isn't really working anywhere else. Add in telling everyone WCPSS has no real solutions to implement that aren't years off in helping improve things for our children and why wouldn't everyone with this view be upset, diversity or no diversity? Would suggest that no one discount these individuals or try to dump all "diversity supporters" into one single viewpoint.
Fox Road is a great one to use as a theoretical example as the school is already Title 1, is receiving interventions which are undergoing evaluation but which has no additional programs proposed for addition and is now at a point of also being required to give parents/students assigned there additional choices.
so you want to eliminate
Tue, 02/15/2011 - 17:53 — jenmanso you want to eliminate choice in an assignment model as to include choice is to introduce a degree of uncertainty which could, in theory, be used to send a child currently in ES at Fox Road to anywhere beside East Millbrook (assumed to be their closest school), one of those choices being Wakefield MS? Is it your contention that they should all be going to East Millbrook?
I don't want to eliminate choice. I'm saying that if they want to balance the middle schools, they are going to have a hard time doing so if they take the closest, most logical elementary schools to feed into each middle school. Fox Road ES would be a logical choice to feed into E Millbrook since the two schools are about 1.5 miles apart. I'm also not saying that they should all be going to East Millbrook. I'm saying that it is the logical feeder for that elem school because of proximity. It doesn't really matter which schools we are talking about--these situations are everywhere in the county.
In addition, am I correct that you're making the following assumptions:
1. That rising 6th Graders from Fox Road will have a high proportion of ED, a high proportion of ethnic minorities, and a high proportion of underachieving students that will be an ongoing issue for the foreseeable future?
Yes. That is the situation right now and I think it will take a while for that to change. Many of the elem schools that are closest or common sense feeders into E Millbrook have higher poverty levels and lower achievement levels. Hopefully the achievement levels will rise, but I wouldn't expect the percentage of poverty or minorities to get lower. (just based on historical housing patterns)
2. As a result, since they aren't required to go to East Millbrook, any choice algorithm would then result in the Fox Road cohort of underperforming children not all going to East Millbrook and instead being spread across some of the alternate choices available, presumably one of the top 3 choices of their parents (i.e. these children would not receive their first choice for the subset who put East Millbrook first)? And that this would thus require some of those children to go to a school further away but within their "choice zone" for the transition from ES to MS? And that just by the very act of going to a MS that is further away than East Millbrook, they will continue to underachieve?
What? I'm not making any assumption about kids going further away continuing to underachieve. I am saying that if the goal is to balance each of the schools achievement wise, that they are going to have a very hard time doing so in certain parts of the county. Currently, the schools that would be logical feeders into Wakefield MS are lower poverty and have higher overall test scores than the logical feeders into East Millbrook. It is the reason why they have nodes within walking distance of E Millbrook being sent to Wakefield instead.
In order to balance the middle schools (which is one of the goals--to balance the schools), they will have to manipulate the feeder patterns. If the 5 elem schools closest to Wakefield all have high scores and the 5 elem schools closest to East Millbrook have lower scores, they could choose to send oneor two of the Wakefield logical feeder elem schools to East Millbrook instead and vice versa.
A possible scenario: Somebody living within the 1.5 mi for Fox Road chooses that as their #1 elem school and they get in. The feeder pattern for Fox Road has them going to Wakefield MS and then Wakefield HS (or Heritage MS & HS). If that parent doesn't want their kids following the feeder pattern to Wakefield they don't have to. But, if they do decide to apply for their closest school (E Millbrook), they will be behind all of the rising 6th graders in E Millbrook's feeder pattern, some of whom could have a different middle school as their closest one as well as all the kids who live within 1.5 mi of E Millbrook. This plan is supposed to have proximity as the number 1 priority but this scenario could take that away from some parents.
I am not saying this will happen. I am saying that it is a possibility and that we need to pay attention when they set up the feeder patterns. Just like it was very easy for previous staff members to manipulate assignments, it would be just as easy for them to do so under this plan as well.
It could also be used as a carrot for parents to select a higher poverty or unpopular school. If you select unpopular, lower scoring elem school X, we'll make sure that you feed into popular, high performing middle school Y and high school Z.
A couple of things. Clearly
Tue, 02/15/2011 - 23:36 — kbrooks500A couple of things. Clearly you don't like the recent system of trying to balance poverty. I think you are projecting that system onto the new one when they are not the same. First of all, achievement never trumps proximity in Alves plan. If there is space available any student within 1.5 miles of a school regardless of achievement level should be able to get in.
The three administrative areas are already balanced but not identical. The fifth grade achievement levels for level 1 and 2 (EOG Scores): District 25.2 Area 1 - 28.4, Area 2 - 29.9 and
Area 3 - 18.4. All the areas are within a range of the district average but not each other. Each transition grade (k, 6 and 9) would mirror the area it is in within a agreed upon range. It could be 10 or even 20 percent different if that is what the board agreed to. So one school may have 9.9 % of its students at level 1/2 but another school in the same area may have 49.9% of its students at level 1/2. Of course the plan doesn't specifically say this, but it is definitely one of the parameters the board would need to set. You can look at other choice plans in Boston or Cambridge. Controlled choice plans do not eliminate high poverty or racially isolated schools because most people choose their closets school which usually have the same demographics as themselves.
Additionally I do not believe feeder patterns will all be proximate patterns. Magnet programs should feed into each other. Therefore Millbrook ES, Douglas and Bugg which are both Creative Arts and Science ES Programs should feed to E. Millbrook. With E. Millbrook being a magnet 40% of seats should be set aside for applicants. Therefore Fox Rd. would feed to Wakefield and it would be logical and okay. A public school should welcome every student regardless of home address.
A couple of things. Clearly
Wed, 02/16/2011 - 10:51 — jenmanA couple of things. Clearly you don't like the recent system of trying to balance poverty. I think you are projecting that system onto the new one when they are not the same.
I don't like how easily the recent/current system was manipulated and how the focus changed from reducing poverty to raising it in certain areas. I don't like how the needs and welfare of the kids being moved was ignored. Alves' plan also has the potentially to be manipulated when it comes to the feeder patterns. You mention elsewhere in this post that controlled choice models do not eliminate high poverty or racially isolated schools. I agree and I think that will be a problem for some diversity supporters. This is where I see some people setting up feeder patterns based on achievement levels.
First of all, achievement never trumps proximity in Alves plan. If there is space available any student within 1.5 miles of a school regardless of achievement level should be able to get in.
Once you get into middle and high school, that isn't as clear. The feeder patterns could potentially cause a problem with this. Again, I'm saying this is something we need to be aware of when they are setting up the feeder patterns. Also, I wouldn't say that achievement never trumps proximity. Proximity only comes into play if you are 1.5 miles from the school, are applying to your closest school, or the next closest school that isn't overcrowded. I don't think that achievement will trump proximity often or be a major problem, but it possible. It could be an issue for certain schools or areas.
Additionally I do not believe feeder patterns will all be proximate patterns. Magnet programs should feed into each other. Therefore Millbrook ES, Douglas and Bugg which are both Creative Arts and Science ES Programs should feed to E. Millbrook.
Douglas and Bugg don't currently feed into E Millbrook right now. Obviously, the magnet program feeds into E Millbrook but the base of those schools doesn't. Joyner ES is also an IB program and it currently feeds into E Millbrook. It is an interesting idea to have the magnets all feed into the next level of magnet but I don't know how well that would work.
1st, it would be interesting to see how many of the magnet kids at Douglas, Bugg, Millbrook & Joyner actually attend E Millbrook. I know several magnet families from Joyner whose kids are at Ligon. A couple of the families I knew well enough that we talked about middle schools. They didn't even consider E Millbrook. They would have considered Daniels if that had been their IB option (and if it wasn't eventually demag'ed), but they wouldn't even consider E Millbrook. It would also be interesting to know how many base kids from those 4 magnet elem end up going to E Millbrook to continue the magnet program. All of the Millbrook ES nodes feed into E Millbrook anyway and I'm guessing that most of the base students do go there.
If magnet elem did feed into the magnet middle and high schools, I think that could be a problem for some base schools. Joyner, for instance. I really don't think that too many of the base families would be happy with their feeder pattern of East Millbrook and Millbrook High. They go to Daniels and Broughton and most consider those their 'neighborhood' schools. Most of the base families that I knew at Joyner didn't really care so much about the IB or Spanish program itself, they were just happy to have a good neighborhood school.
Priority 5 addresses the nearest schools being magnets but parents want a non-magnet. Perhaps they need to add something in there about your feeder pattern leading to a magnet and you don't want a magnet. It seems that in general they need to add an additional priority for the middle school and high school applications. Everybody is guaranteed that they will be able to attend the MS and HS in their feeder pattern so that will end up being Priority 1 or 2 (not sure if it trumps siblings) in the 'lottery'.
With E. Millbrook being a magnet 40% of seats should be set aside for applicants.
Alves mentions that 60/40 balance of base to magnet, but that is just the system average. East Millbrook is only about 15% magnet. Washington ES is 73% magnet & Ligon is 66% magnet. I don't think they will (or can) do an across the board percentage of magnet seats at each school. There have already been comments from some magnet parents that if their school gets more of the low income base, the tipping point will be reached and magnet families willl leave. Schools with a low magnet percentage like E Millbrook or Garner High would have a hard time attracting that many magnet applicants right away.
There's still a lot to be worked out with how magnets fit into this controlled choice model.
question
Wed, 02/16/2011 - 12:01 — loriacWhere we are in North Raleigh - we are not 1.5 miles from a school, but we are closest to LRHS. We are west, so need to drive past LRHS to get to any other school.
How is this taken into consideration? Sounds like proximity only considers the 1.5 mile boundary, then everyone else is equal? I just wonder if people will be randomly cherry picked from the neighborhoods west of Leesville to attend Sanderson, Millbrook, even Wakefield - even if people don't choose these schools as their first choice.
This uncertainty is the part I don't like about the plan. Right now we have Jeffrey's Grove as our base, when puts us in a feeder pattern that doesn't make sense (sends most kid east to West Millbrook MS, and Millbrook HS).
Trying to understand context
Wed, 02/16/2011 - 13:41 — magnetParentTrying to understand context - is Jeffrey Groves your closest school or your current (to be grandfathered) school? I don't see any nodes west of Leesville High that go to Jeffreys Grove, but it seems there are closer ES to some of the nodes assigned to JG. Or is your concern that if you take the grandfather clause it will put you on the wrong feeder path?
I am mainly concerned with
Wed, 02/16/2011 - 15:49 — loriacI am mainly concerned with High School. For where we are, all the neighborhoods west of LRHS consider LRHS our neighborhood school. We understand well Brier Creek - so a neighborhood gets built in the middle of nowhere with no schools - do they push everyone east so no one goes to their closest school? It's an interesting debate that's been going on a while.
So - for me, this plan is a big takeaway because we won't have our neighborhood school as our base, and people will be cherry picked at random and sent to further away schools. This is where nodes make more sense, because they can take traffic patterns into account.
I mentioned Jeffrey's Grove - it's our 6th closest ES, and we've been fighting the feeder pattern for a while - GP keeps trying to shove us east because of it, even tho the only reason we're at JG is 'for our numbers'.
So I would imagine that your
Wed, 02/16/2011 - 16:19 — magnetParentSo I would imagine that your neighborhood would be more likely to choose your closest ES school as your first choice instead of being grandfathered into JG. That would likely change your feeder pattern to something more accomodating. And even if you did stay at JG, you could put your closest middle school down as your first choice when moving into 6th grade.
I'm not sure how nodes make more sense - I believe that when they presented the data they said that the distance to school was taking traffic patterns into account via the SAS database they were using. (Maybe its just using Google Maps, which can calculate your ETA based on the type of roads you travel).
There is definitely a benefit to living within the walk-zone area (except I don't think you get transportation then) but choosing your closest school as your first choice is pretty high up there on the list. Unless there is some high density area surrounding the school it should be able to accommodate plenty.
That being said, I think the thing that can mess it up is the grandfathering because if people that live further away are already there and want to stay, they have priority and will take up a seat. If it is a real good school there will be competition. However, I think even in JTs plan he had grandfathering which would have had the same issues.
I looks like folks from
Wed, 02/16/2011 - 12:44 — user12345I looks like folks from Brier Creek on the other side of 540 are pushing your neighborhood east.
..http://www.wcpss.net/school-directory/attendance-maps/452_E_JEFFREYS_GROVE_ES.pdf
That is priority 3, right
Wed, 02/16/2011 - 12:18 — magnetParentThat is priority 3, right after sibling (priority 1) and within walkzone (priority 2):
Priority 3: Non-sibling applicants who do not live within 1.5 miles travel distance of any school and make their nearest school their first choice.
Which family / node is processed first
Wed, 02/16/2011 - 13:10 — WadingInWhen I read the priority order, the order may sound reasonable but the bigger question will be who (family / node) is processed before another.
Are families that live 1.51 miles from their closest processed before 1.52 miles, 1.53 miles, etc? Is it a radial process with the school as the center? Are the families / nodes that surround a school processed clockwise / counterclockwise?
There will be an order or “first pick” to the choice assignment and it will have a much greater impact when a school is deemed overcrowded or needing achievement level diversity.
I think you are reading that
Wed, 02/16/2011 - 13:24 — magnetParentI think you are reading that wrong. If you put down your closest school (regardless of the actual distance) as your first choice, it is given a priority ranking of 3. That puts you in the pool of people who listed as their first choice their closest school. Then, they randomly pick from that pool of priority 3 families to fill that school. That is how I interpret it.
Priority Points
Wed, 02/16/2011 - 15:13 — WadingInFound the point system chart on page 33-34. You receive a “place in line” equal to a random number plus your priority “points”. There is no proximity priority (1.51 mi versus 3 miles) within Priority 3. The Proximity principle would not apply beyond the 1.5 mile driving distance.
Couple of other observations –
Did not see any “points” for calendar choice (if closest school is YR / Traditional and your preference is the opposite) nor YR track priority “points” (siblings either at the same school or at feeder pattern ES/MS). You would fall out of all 6 priorities tests.
The “Allocating of Seat Assignments” sections appear to create a “set aside” policy within a school. You could meet Priority 3 and should be eligible to attend a particular school but be restricted based on the “set aside seats” for Priority 6.
Yes that is what I was
Wed, 02/16/2011 - 16:07 — magnetParentYes that is what I was saying, just didn't word it as well. "Randomly picked" is a result of the random number for your place in line.
Someone else mentioned the concern about YR vs Traditional preference and I agree that it should be a factor in the priorities. I think it is something that could and should be worked into the plan. As far as track is concerned, I agree that siblings need to be all on the same track (as part of the sibling priority) and should be accommodated as well.
As far as the set-aside seats are concerned, I believe the Waiting List would work for that. It says that "Waiting Lists would be established after every lottery assignment cycle is completed. Students who are not assigned to their first-choice school would be placed on a waiting list for that school and a separate waiting list would also be provided for students who were not assigned to their second-choice school." They maintain their place in line based on their random number plus priority points.
Set asides
Wed, 02/16/2011 - 16:32 — WadingIn“Set asides” would override the stated order of the listed Priorities. Waitlist would occur at a Priority pool level (i.e. at Priority 3 waitlist should stop Priority 4 pool processing until the waitlist is completed).
You said if the seats
Wed, 02/16/2011 - 16:37 — magnetParentYou said if the seats set-aside did not get allocated. If, after the initial processing of the applications there are still some seats that were set-aside that did not get allocated, the wait list would be processed in the same priority order as the original processing. Granted, the set-aside seats that did get filled will have been filled before the ones on the wait-list, but that is the purpose of setting them aside in the first place.
What I had pointed out was
Wed, 02/16/2011 - 17:06 — WadingInThe “Allocating of Seat Assignments” sections appear to create a “set aside” policy within a school. You could meet Priority 3 and should be eligible to attend a particular school but be restricted based on the “set aside seats” for Priority 6.
"Set aside" seats changes the priority order.
Although there may be open seats at a school, not being the correct “fill in the blank”, removes you from consideration. The handout initially listed the assignment order / six assignment priorities. One would have expected order to be followed top down without any administrative discretional “set aside” ratios.
The only unaltered priorities are sibling and 1.5 mi driving distance proximity (currently listed as ES(30%), MS(13%) and HS(12%)). All other students are exposed to exclusion from attending their nearest school based on a administrative “set aside” allocation of seats at the school.
Do we know that the unfilled
Wed, 02/16/2011 - 17:04 — jenmanDo we know that the unfilled set aside seats will then get filled? Or will it be like they've done in the past with magnets--they would leave empty seats if they didn't like what the applicants would do to the sending or receiving school.
As I said before, it seems
Wed, 02/16/2011 - 17:09 — magnetParentAs I said before, it seems like the Wait-list would fill them. Not sure if it is spelled out that way but I am sure the BOE can do that.
Not sure if it is spelled
Wed, 02/16/2011 - 18:10 — jenmanNot sure if it is spelled out that way but I am sure the BOE can do that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The problem is that the BOE can also choose to leave those seats empty if they want to. We might think it makes sense to go ahead and fill the set-aside seats, but if the BOE doesn't then it doesn't matter what we think. As it stands right now, I think that the board would vote to fill any unused set aside seats with whoever wanted to go there, but we don't know what will happen with the next election.
Sounds like you should join
Wed, 02/16/2011 - 18:28 — magnetParentSounds like you should join Tata's Task Force and get it into the policy ;-)
Anything can happen in the next election so it shouldn't prevent us from moving forward today.
I vote for her input with all things
Wed, 02/16/2011 - 21:40 — FSandYOUthat will involve a vote in the end. :c)
exactly - if we are 1.7
Wed, 02/16/2011 - 13:18 — loriacexactly - if we are 1.7 miles from the school - are we lumped in with people who are 10 miles away. If proximity is only defined as 1.5 mile circle, that doesn't mean a lot.
You are only lumped in with
Wed, 02/16/2011 - 13:25 — magnetParentYou are only lumped in with people who are 10 miles away if that is their closest school. I highly doubt there are any locations that are 10 miles away from any elementary school.