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The WakeEd blog is devoted to discussing and answering questions about the major issues facing the Wake County school system. How much will the new Democratic majority on the school board do to undo the changes made by Republicans since 2009? How will the new choice-based assignment system work now that the socioeconomic diversity policy has been eliminated? How will Superintendent Tony Tata lead the state's largest district through more budget cuts and possible layoffs? How will the board respond to growth and the school construction program?

WakeEd is maintained by The News & Observer's Wake schools reporter, T. Keung Hui. While Keung posts information and analysis on the issues, keep us posted on your suggestions, questions, tips and what you're doing to cope with the changes in Wake's schools.

Looking at the longest bus rides

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The question of who has the longest bus rides was also on the minds of school board members on Tuesday.

As noted in today's article, staff stressed that voluntary magnet kids account for a majority of the longest bus rides in the district. But students who are bused for diversity also are in the group with the longest rides.

Bob Snidemiller, senior director for transportation, explained that the longest 5 percent of bus ride times have an average one-way ride of 64 minutes.

That 5 percent of routes consists of 112 runs. He said 77 of the 112 runs are serving magnet students who voluntarily chose the long rides.

He said the longest one-way run is Route 27, which takes 85 minutes each way to go from Fuquay-Varina to Ligon Middle School in downtown Raleigh. Those magnet students travel 42 miles.

Of the 35 non-magnet routes, 21 are serving traditional-calendar schools and 14 are handling year-round schools.

School board member Lori Millberg asked if those 35 routes were Raleigh ones or are for more rural routes where the kids live far apart. She said the routes could include Wake Forest students who are bused to Knightdale High because of overcrowding at Wake Forest-Rolesville High.

Alvin McNeill, transportation operations manager, said those 35 routes include "satellite" and "spot nodes," such as kids going from Raleigh to Apex.

School board member Patti Head pressed for specifics. She asked if the 35 routes include students who are bused from Southeast Raleigh to places such as Green Hope or Leesville. While she didn't say it out loud, it's clear she was talking about kids being bused for diversity.

McNeill's one-word answer was yes.

Then board members tried to downplay the significance of it saying that at most you're talking about the 35 routes serving 1,000 students out of 140,000 students in the district.

All throughout the discussion, board member Horace Tart kept insisting that 90 percent of students go to schools within a 5-mile radius of where they live.

(In case you're wondering, I did ask for the specifics on the 35 routes. Staff said they weren't able to provide the information. Board members didn't press them for it either.)

On a similar note, Don Haydon, chief facilities and operations officer, warned that everyone's ride times may go up next year due to state funding cuts. He said they might have to run fewer buses on the road.

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I agree Bob but don't

I agree Bob but don't believe that concentrating all the poor kids in a few schools will bring out a ground swell of parent participation either.
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User1234--First of all, we are NOT advocating concentrating all the poor kids in a few schools. Second, we are NOT necessarily sending these kids to a 'better' schools. Lately the reassignment plans have focused on raising F&R rather than lowering it. The low income kids going from Joyner to Leesville or from Underwood to Green Hope were NOT going to a better school. They were actually losing academic opportunities and gaining a longer bus ride in the process. The ESL kids moving from Penny Road (F&R in the 20s) to Davis Drive were done so over the objections of staff who had worked with them at Penny Road and the staff at Davis Drive who worried about the lack of resources for these children at Davis Drive.

Nobody is claiming that low income parents would automatically participate at school if the schools were closer. But for many families we are all but ensuring that they won't be able to even if they wanted to. I absolutely do NOT buy this bull that they won't participate. I met several parents of low income children when my kids were at Joyner. They were there for author's teas, book fairs, family fun nights, etc. I was just discussing this very issue with a friend from Lacy and she talked about the families living in the low income apartments near the school. They come to events and care about their kids' education. What about the Myanmar refugees who fought to stay at the HS they could walk or ride their bikes to?

There are absolutely some parents who are too drugged out to care or who are working so much that they don't have time to be involved. But making it harder for them is not the answer. Especially when we are not moving their kids out of high poverty schools in 2/3 of the cases.

User1234--I urge you to look at the facts. Yes, the diversity policy is based on a good idea and I don't think we should get rid of it entirely. But we have strayed far away from the original intent. You are arguing against change using reasons that don't necessarily exist anymore.

I think Bob and I concluded

I think Bob and I concluded that ES, MS and HS may be different.   Definity, F&R kids do better in HS schools where they are under 15% (Apex, Green Hope, Panther Creek) and worse when they are over 40% (Garner).

School %EDPass %FR
Green Hope High 69% 5%
Davis Drive Middle 33% 10%
Davis Drive Elementary 53% 15%

With an average score of 1/3 passing, Davis and Green Hope is where ED kids would want to be assigned.  You can see if we could send more ED to Green Hope they would be on their way to college.   With a 69% ED passing which is one of the highest in the state this where low income parents would want their kid to go no matter the distance.

As I mentioned before, I would just include kids in a six mile radius as the "community" and work with that income diversity.  By letting the computer pick some node far away the BOE opens themselves up.

 

One person mentioned maybe the answer is moving the great teachers to the need. So, schools with the top scores like GH could roate their teachers to the bottom schools to do their "magic" .

 

FAir...

I think that's a fair assessment of where we ended up.  I'm not sure we really have enough high schools to get a good sampling.

I've been thinking about it, and I'm not sure that we can go from "69% of Green Hope's ED students pass their EOCs" to "therefore, we should assign more ED students to Green Hope."  It may be that Green Hope just happens to have more ED students with affluent parents who happen to be between jobs for some reason, and that it would do poorly with additional ED students not in that mold.

Note that Green Hope is just an example.   The reverse also applies -- Wakefield ES's EDPass numbers are very low, about 20%.   But, it may be that it has a lot of very difficult ED students and that it would do better with any other ED students.

As far as "rotating" goes, two thoughts:  (1) teachers good at teaching high-achievers may be lousy at teaching low-achievers; (2) the US has a very mobile workforce -- you cannot force "the best" teachers to do what they don't want to do, because they'll just leave.  So, any rotation has to be accompanied by incentives to stay.

Trying to corral you is

Trying to corral you is tough … it must be all the legal training …

 

We come close but then you argue that:

1)      We don’t have enough data

2)      That one set of ED’s are different from other sets

3)      Good teachers work better with good students

 

Our arguments seem to always end up without you willing to give anything up.  Not accept more ED students, not moving good teachers, etc. 

 

Just so you know there is not much in those results to want others outside your organization from seeing what is in it for them.  It always seems like it ends up with you saying I want to take the good students, have the poor ones go some place closer to their home, depend on some special funding that does not exist now and will quickly disappear and by the way, I’ll keep the good teachers who enjoy teaching high-achievers in my school of distinction.

 

Btw, I think, teacher rotation should be part of broadening teacher’s skills and perspective so they don’t get stale and can contribute and learn with others.   

Well...

(1)  At the high school level, we have some data, but I wish we had more.  I admit that the data we do have apparently shows that F&R students in Wake high schools with very low F&R ratios do significantly better than F&R students in wake high schools with high F&R ratios.

(2) Clearly some ED students are different than others.  I live in Wakefield and know of somebody in my neighborhood whose kids receive reduced-price lunches.  (He recently lost his job.)  Those kids are generally very different from those F&R students in Wendell or ITB.

My point is just that we have a correlation, but we really don't know enough about the data to establish causation.  There's a theory that says "It's caused by concentrations of F&R students," but there may be alternate causes.

(3)  Never said that.  Just saying that teachers aren't interchangeable.  Somebody who's good with one set of kids may be lousy with another.

Clearly what WCPSS is doing now -- busing kids all over the county -- isn't working.  I don't know how anybody can defend any policy which fails 7 out of 10 of the kids its supposed to help.

If you want my solution to working with F&R students, it's: (1)
get the low-hanging fruit first -- a portion of F&R students have
one or more parents, grandparents, etc... who are invoved and who want
to be active participants in their kids' education;   Make sure that
those parents are involved.  (2) reach out to other organizations in
the community, like Building Together Ministries, churches, boys/girls
clubs, YMCA, etc... to get people hands-on in the schools, especially
for those kids who do not have involved parents.  (3) Target
resources--money and appropriately trained teachers--to those schools. 
Get small classrooms and make sure that there are plenty of adults in
that school to share the load of teaching kids who are hard to teach.  
(4) dress code to teach respect for education and eliminate distrctions
from clothing.  (4) don't accept disruption -- boot out the violent
kids or those with drug issues; you often end up sacrificing the reachable in the efforts to keep the unreachable in school.

Good stuff Bob ...insightful

Good stuff Bob ...insightful ... I just don't think people have the follow through to do these things / continue to fund them.   Personally, I am guessing with 140k kids, teachers being cut left and right, that most kids (rich or poor) will be lucky to survive next year.

Clerical error keeps Cary girl from magnet program

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/5243526/

This one amazed me.  We

This one amazed me.  We have (I think) 134 classes in wcpss which already require  a class-size waiver.  And the legislature is looking to increase class sizes by two as part of their budget cuts.  Why not just honor a commitment that was made to a child?

Last Minute Track Changes At Some Wake Schools

http://wake.mync.com/site/wake/news/story/35582/last-minute-track-changes-at-some-wake-schools
WAKE COUNTY, N.C. -
With just weeks before the start of year-round school in Wake County, some schools are making some big schedule changes.

Because of budget cuts, and a mandate that principals hire no more than 95 percent of the number of teachers they need, schools are looking at collapsing tracks, reducing the number of classes, and other measures.

Principals are looking at each grade levels, trying to balance enrollment with staffing.

At Olive Chapel Elementary School in Apex, some parents received letters asking if they would volunteer to change tracks. The school has decided to eliminate a fifth grade class and a fourth grade class, and add another class to third grade.

Michael Evans, spokesperson for the Wake County Public School System, said similar situations are occurring all over the county.

"It's not a reflection on a principal's lack of planning, it's dealing with the uncertainty," Evans said. "Until we know what state funding is and local funding, that level of uncertainty is really causing us problems."

Schools are also reducing the number of elective courses, and as a result of short staffing, some classes may be larger.

"If we're looking at significant state budget cuts, principals and teachers are going to be forced potentially to make changes once the school year starts," said Evans. "We see that as being very disruptive, however, we're going to make the best of it."

user1234--the issue isn't

user1234--the issue isn't just the long bus ride. It is the fact that their parents can't get to the school if their kid is sick, to attend a teacher conference or to go to 'family fun night'. Some of those schools don't even have public transportation that goes near them so the bus is out of the question. 2 or 3 years ago, a taxi ride from Washington Terrace (downtown apts) to Leesville Elem was about $30 one way. We are all but ensuring that these families will NEVER participate in their childrens' education.

Yes, there are lots of rural kids who ride the bus for an hour but that's to be expected when you live in the boonies. They're not passing 10 other schools to get there.

I understand but it would be

I understand but it would be so much more convincing coming from them.  I am sure a large public demonstration would bring attention to the problem and it would be fixed.  BTW, I am betting you can find most any neighborhood school in poor areas where the school is within sight and the parents don't participate so I don't see distance as being the the defining factor in parent participation for these parents.

Well....

There was an article in the paper a few months ago talking about a family whose kids had been reassigned to a distant school, and the family wanted them nearer so it could participate in their education.

I don't think anything can be assumed from their silence -- F&R parents are generally not particularly effective at advocating for their children, which is why the school board elects to foricibly move them to where the affluent children are, instead of vice-versa. 

I suspect that poorer parents don't participate as much as more affluent parents do, if for no other reason that it's hard to do so when both parents need to work or in single-parent households.   But, given what we know about the importance of parents participating, the district should be encouraging it rather than discouraging it.

"But, given what we know

"But, given what we know about the importance of parents participating, the district should be encouraging it rather than discouraging it. "

 

I agree Bob but don't believe that concentrating all the poor kids in a few schools will bring out a ground swell of parent participation either. 

Don't believe that...

Poor parents may very well participate less than affluent parents.  But, they'll participate even less if the school district makes it hard for them to do so.  Which is better: some participation by poor parents at nearby schools, or none at faraway schools?

Interesting question …

Interesting question … whether it is better to put low income kids in a low performing nearby school with the chance of parental participation or have the low performing kids attend a better school further away with less chance of parental participation.  I guess it depends on the goal, student achievement or parental participation.

Interesting premise

If those particular students don't do any better at the faraway school, then the answer should be obvious.

Obvious

Not really ... again Bob you are getting "Healthy School" and test schools confused ... you may want to write this on your hand ... healthy schools are about not concentrating all the high needs kids in a few school which wears out the teachers and adminstration .. test score are individual activities ... you can have a healthy school with bad test score and an unhealthy school with great test scores ...... I think my data show high needs kids do better in in Low HN schools (<15% very good and >40% very bad)  .. the best your data shows that it does not matter ...

This is where that argument

This is where that argument totally falls apart.  Policy 6200's intent is to create these "healthy schools" by capping F&R at 40%.

Members of the WCPSS school board and administration consistently brag about the quality of teachers we are able to recruit and retain because of policy 6200

Except that we're not doing it.  1/3 of the schools in Wake County do not meet policy 6200 objectives.  Yet we have teachers beating our door down (and in fact we will soon be showing the door to many of them).

Well, then bring a lawsuit

Well, then bring a lawsuit to bring them all into compliance.

Two words: Soverign Immunity

I don't think they can be sued for failing to follow their own polciy.  Even if they could, who has standing?

Bob, I was just kidding but

Bob, I was just kidding but thought that after the YR case that people would want to keep poundng away legally on something.

once again you completely

once again you completely miss the point - even if it's intentional and you won't admit it.

Loriac ... I am not sure how

Loriac ... I am not sure how the fact WPSS has a diversity policy and the fact that it is only 2/3 implemented has a relationship.   You set the policy and then gradually transform to it.  No one is 100% day one.

The policy was set in

The policy was set in 2000.  Why can't you just admit when you're wrong?

Wrong about what ... that

Wrong about what ... that they have not fully implemented it .. the F&R is a fast growing population?  You must be a glass half full kinda guy ... 2/3 implemented is not bad ... with new three reassignments they should be able to make evenmore progress.

Wrong about "healthy

Wrong about "healthy schools."  You spout the wcpss kool-aid about the "healthy schools" that we have due to policy 6200, then when you are presented with the fact that we are not following this policy your answer is "so sue them." 

BTW, every parent should take a "glass half-full"  view when it comes to their children's education... If your child is on the empty side of "half-full" then all those books and awards don't mean squat.

Except that they are

Except that they are evolving away from it.  Someone with more history on this blog than I can confirm that there were far fewer schools over 40% F&R prior to the implementation of 6200 than now.  

Excluding alternative

Excluding alternative schools, the highest F&R schools in the 1999-00 school year were Zebulon Elementary at 54 percent and Smith Elementary at 52 percent. No else was above 50 percent
....before WCPSS began their diversity policy the most segregated schools had 52 and 54% F&R????

 We now have 18 elementary schools over 50%

Page 67 ... number of F&R

Page 67 ... number of F&R students doubled over the last 10 years over much of the county which means that schools on the edge 10 years ago will most likely be over now.

"We now have 18 elementary schools over 50% "

So wouldn't you agree we need to redouble our efforts to make progress?

 

http://www.wcpss.net/demographics/reports/book08a.pdf#pagemode=bookmarks&page1

Thanks!

Thanks!

New Healthy Snake Oil

you can have a healthy school with bad test score and an unhealthy school with great test scores

So "healthy" schools are a higher priority metric than... test scores. Let me try this toupee on; "Hi hon, how was school today." "Well, I got a C on my math but boy was school HEALTHY today!" "That's my girl"

Which is why this "healthy" snake oil gibberish is just another trojan horse for "anything but education."

Huh?

At best, my data shows that F&R kids do marginally better in high-F&R schools.  But, I admit that the correllation is not especially strong. 

If, as you say, it's possible for a healthy school to have abysmal test scores, then it sounds like healthy schools aren't all they're cracked up to be.  

I would rather have a school in which principals are constantly having to replace overworked teachers but students are learning than a school with happy teachers and failing kids.  If the first school is "unhealthy" and the second is "healthy," then so be it.  The fundamental misison of a school is to educate *students*, not to keep district employees happy.

We should be worried about "healthy" students, not healthy schools.  If the students in a school are healthy, the school will be also.  If a significant portion of any group of students in that school is "unhealthy," so will the school.  

It's absolutely atrocious that WCPSS, in the name of "healthy schools" would move poor students from a school where 2/3ds of them can't work at grade level to a school where 4/5ths of them can't.  (the Wilburn -> Wakefield ES moves in the last reassignment.)  

Bob, wouldn't you admit

Bob, wouldn't you admit that it appears from the data that using the lowest and highest F&R schools that moving kids from the highest concentrations (>40%) to the lowest (<20%) doubles and in some cases triples the number of ED kids who pass?  So, in theory, every ED kid we can assign from the bottom of the list to the top gives them twice the chance to pass.

 

School F&R %FR %EDPass
Green Hope High L 5% 69%
Panther Creek High  L 7% 68%
Cedar Fork Elementary L 11% 65%
Salem Middle L 5% 64%
Apex High L 8% 60%
Wake Forest-Rolesville High L 16% 57%
Leesville Road High L 15% 56%
Morrisville Elementary L 14% 56%
Davis Drive Elementary L 15% 53%
Fox Road Elementary H 61% 30%
Jeffreys Grove Elementary H 36% 30%
Wendell Elementary H 50% 29%
Carnage Middle H 45% 29%
Aversboro Elementary H 52% 28%
Carroll Middle H 44% 28%
Dillard Drive Middle H 40% 28%
Briarcliff Elementary H 35% 28%
East Garner Middle H 50% 27%
North Garner Middle H 39% 27%
Reedy Creek Elementary H 41% 26%
Stough Elementary H 46% 25%
East Millbrook Middle H 44% 25%
Douglas Elementary H 36% 25%
West Millbrook Middle H 42% 24%
Conn Elementary H 43% 23%
Barwell Elementary H 59% 22%

"I would rather have a

"I would rather have a school in which principals are constantly having to replace overworked teachers but students are learning than a school with happy teachers and failing kids.” 

 

Do you run a sweatshop?  

It is an interesting

It is an interesting question.... to everyone except the BoE(eR) who refuse to ask it.

exactly how does this help the students?

You're going to bus these kids to a 'better' school across town (wait - I thought ALL schools were healthy ?!) - why is that supposed to help them?

 

Yes - the goal is educating students - how does busing them across town do that? 

"wait - I thought ALL

"wait - I thought ALL schools were healthy ?!"

Obviously, you have not been a school in a long time ... they should ALL be heathly ... but there is always sickness going around some where ..

Have they told you that?

Have they told you that?  That it doesn't matter if the school is across the street or 20 miles away - they have no intention of participating?  

It sounds like this big assumption means it's ok to ship low-income kids across town because their parents won't participate anyway... Mr. Dulaney made a similar remark to me.  Amazing. 

"It sounds like this big

"It sounds like this big assumption means it's ok to ship low-income kids across town because their parents won't participate anyway"

What I am saying is that if you put a poor family in a school across the street they won't automatically participate because of proximity.  Furthermore, it is unlikely that a poor parent will work near their home so they will need to travel long distances from where ever they work possibly on public transportation or taxi to get home for a sick kid. 

 

still missing the logic

Furthermore, it is unlikely that a poor parent will work near their home so they will need to travel long distances from where ever they work possibly on public transportation or taxi to get home for a sick kid. 

 So - sounds like you've studied this thoroughly (that's sarcasm) - this makes it ok to bus kids across town because the low income parents have to travel long distances anyway by bus or taxi to work ?  Beautiful.

Facts are there

With reference to your sarcasm there are plenty of hard data that indicates high poverty schools have low parental involvement.  I worked in this environment in the NE for 5 years.  We tried a number of initiatives, none of which seemed to make significant improvement. 

The reasons for low involvement seemed to fall into 1 of three categories

1) Working 2-3 jobs provided no opportunities to be involved in school

2) single parents and lots of kids 

3) Didn't put an emphasis on education

and the point is

Still no reason to bus them across town - someone is spending money to do that, let's put the resources to help these kids instead.

 This whole discussion is so insulting - according to you, low income parents are working 2 jobs, no transportation, it's a 'known fact' they won't participate in schools, they don't care about education anyway, don't pay attention to their kids, so let's just bus them across town so they can't bring down the ITB schools.    What a great attitude you have.  

I don't understand this attitude:

"Then board members tried to downplay the significance of it saying that at most you're talking about the 35 routes serving 1,000 students out of 140,000 students in the district."

I think this is a bizarre attitude to have. We're admittedly doing something we agree is negative to about 1000 kids, but since it's ONLY to 1000 kids, that's OK? Once again, they seem to have lost consciousness of the fact that these aren't numbers or statistics, but individual kids from individual families --- and if you're the one stuck with the hour long bus ride, the statistic you face is 100% certainty.

Seriously --- when news came out that hundreds of children had been sexually abused by priests over the years, would the attitude of "Well, there have been millions of children who have grown up in the church over the years, but only a few hundred have been abused, so therefore it's OK" have flown? If we heard that one teacher at Generic Elementary School was slapping children to keep order in the classroom, would we say "Well, it's only happening in one school in the county, so it's really not a problem."?

No, I'm not trying to equate a long bus ride with sexual abuse; clearly one is far worse than the other. How, though, can anyone justify to themselves that it's OK to do something that they admit if bad to ANY kids by saying "Well, at least we aren't doing it to most of them." ?

What a cold comfort THAT must be to the poor saps who get the short end of the stick. Oh, thank Goodness! At least the other 139,000 kids get to go to a school closer to home! Thank Goodness the other 139,000 have the dignity of knowing that they were assigned to their school because it was nearby, and not because there were already too many people of *your type* in your local school!

"I think this is a bizarre

"I think this is a bizarre attitude to have. We're admittedly doing something we agree is negative to about 1000 kids, but since it's ONLY to 1000 kids, that's OK?"

I guess when you are losing budget left and right and having to lay off teachers and assistances in one of the worst financial meltdowns in recent history that 1000 kids (>1%)  taking a bus trip the same distance as most every other kid in the US (I am talking about all 1000's of county schools) for free and safely does not make the priority list.   I am sure they would like to worry about all these things but at this moment the ship is sinking (financially) and and the fact that deck chairs don't match is not a top concern.

Well...

That argument would be much more convincing if extreme travel times made the priority list *before* the meltdown.

"extreme travel times

"extreme travel times "

30-40 minutes vs. a few kids who might get to 64 minutes does not seem extreme ... the fact that Americans watch 4-5 hours of TV a day is extreme ..

"Bob Snidemiller, senior director for transportation, explained that the longest 5 percent of bus ride times have an average one-way ride of 64 minutes."

User1234--May I point out

User1234--May I point out that WCPSS has been busing kids loooong distances long before this year's budget meltdown--what was their excuse then?  (rhetorical question)  As for county bus rides being long, yes they are; however we don't have 170+ other schools in the vicinity to choose from like Wake Co. does.  I will give you one point though---Wake is certainly making drastic cuts laying off teachers and cutting course options, unfortunate that I have to agree on this point.

"(In case you're wondering,

"(In case you're wondering, I did ask for the specifics on the 35 routes. Staff said they weren't able to provide the information. Board members didn't press them for it either.)"

Well, that seems strange. Staff was able to specify that there were 35 routes, but could not provide the details? Thanks for asking the question Keung. Did staff agree to provide you with the information later, or are they refusing to provide it?

The response was they're

The response was they're busy and have got more pressing things to do now.

Where was Ron

"Board members didn't press them for it either"

Where was Ron?  If it was important, why didn't he press for them?

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About the blogger

T. Keung Hui covers Wake schools.

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