The impact of the new middle school math placement criteria will take center stage at today's Wake County school board economically disadvantaged student performance task force meeting.
The task force will hear a report on how many middle school students are in advanced math classes this school year based on last week's 20th-day enrollment. The new guidelines, which use EVAAS, are expected to result in an increase in enrollment, especially among black and Hispanic students.
School board member John Tedesco, chairman of the task force, had asked for the totals to see how the new guidelines are being used. The data is expected to show how many students identified as being ready by EVAAS are in those advanced classes and how many are not.
But there has also been speculation that some middle schools waited until after the 20th day to remove students from those advanced math classes.
Today's meeting is scheduled to run from 4:30 to 6:30 p.m. at Knightdale High School, 100 Bryan Chalk Lane in Knightdale.
UPDATE
Click here for today's meeting agenda.
Comments
Intel CEO Paul Otellini
Thu, 09/30/2010 - 14:07 — user12345So, are you for or against
Thu, 09/30/2010 - 14:15 — klanders65So, are you for or against kids learning math and science? I can't tell.
I want to make something clear. There is nothing really advanced about advanced math. We could teach it more slowly, or with more support for students who need more help to "get it." What we call "advanced math" is just "math." It is just good sound math that everyone should learn.
The lower track is just random topics to keep people busy, that do not build a foundation of understanding that can be built on later.
If kids don't get in that "advanced math" (which is just "real math") track, you don't really learn math and then, science suffers also.
My concern is that folks are
Thu, 09/30/2010 - 15:41 — user12345My concern is that folks are using schools for their own political power trip and sacrificing our children. We need to clear political lobbyist like Woodstock out of the way and get moving, or we will be way behind the curve.
Yup.
Thu, 09/30/2010 - 16:07 — Bob_SconceOrdinarily, I don't like to just say "ditto." But, you and I butt heads enough that it's worth mentioning where we agree. Except for the part about Woodstock -- I'll just say "no comment" there.
Two main goals that we should have:
(1) On grade level for reading by end of 3rd grade.
(2) Know times tables in each of 3rd, 4th, 5th & 6th grades. (4-6 seem superfluous, but if you don't practice them, you forget them.) You simply cannot do more advanced math if you do not know your times tables.
Bob ... I was thinking how
Thu, 09/30/2010 - 18:43 — user12345Bob ... I was thinking how simple my elementary schooling was ... just the basics ...I remember reciting the addition, subtraction, multiplication and division tables in the 2nd grade with speed test every day .... I know it does not sound "sexy" but it got the job done .... that along with a McGuffey Reader is all elementary kids need to get on track. We followed the same course when we homeschooled the kids.
I have also heard of kids
Thu, 09/30/2010 - 09:05 — klanders65I have also heard of kids being removed on or after day 20 and wondered about that requirement. I had thought you could not drop after the 20th day. I thought it was a wcpss policy. It will be interesting to see.
I wonder if kids were dropped right before day 20 and it didn't become known until day 20 or after. If dropping kids out happened at all, and happened before day 20, the report will show the numbers lower. I bet the schools didn't even know there was a report being created using 20 day data. They may have scrambled to get rid of kids at the last chance.
We'll see. After they provide the report we'll know and won't have to keep speculating.
"I have also heard of kids
Thu, 09/30/2010 - 09:21 — CaryCurmudgeonTHIS is the story to watch
Thu, 09/30/2010 - 08:24 — SDR256I've heard the removal story more than once from unrelated sources. If it's true it will strongly suggest there is a big time political battle behind the scenes between EVAAS and the effectiveness index. The switch to EVAAS would take a lot of power awy from growth management.
The assignment discussions get more air time maybe because it is more visible and affects more people who are more comfortable objecting. But this story is truly a scandal about children robbed of their futures. I hope everyone will be a watchdog on this as it unfolds.
What?
Thu, 09/30/2010 - 11:31 — bluedaisyGrowth Management does not control Alg 1 placement. What are you talking about? The effectiveness index nor EVAAS determines where a child goes to school. John Tedesco does.
Sorry I was confusing
Thu, 09/30/2010 - 21:49 — SDR256Sorry I was confusing BlueDaisy. You're right. That was a mistake. I meant to say Evaluation and Research, not Growth Management. Switching to EVAAS would take power away from Evaluation and Research. In recent years it has been E&R's effectiveness index which has determined Algebra 1 placement.
I don't mean to sound like
Thu, 09/30/2010 - 10:06 — danofncI don't mean to sound like I'm trying to defend the system if they kept kids out of advanced middle school math if they were qualified and wanted to take it, but isn't "children robbed of their futures" a little dramatic?
I don't think that it is impossible for a kid to have a successful life if he or she doesn't take algebra until HS.
I really think that the worst case is that the kid goes into college without taking as many AP classes as some other kids.
I certainly don't think that warrants some of the chicken little posts we see about it.
I understand your
Thu, 09/30/2010 - 10:24 — klanders65I understand your perspective but I think there is some real concern. Plenty of people take algebra in high school, then go on to have successful careers and happy lives. It is not like your life is over if you don't have algebra until high school.
On the other hand, the students who are likely to succeed based on the EVAAS predictions who are not recommended do not have the opportunities that students with the same demonstrated ability have. Students who do take 8th grade algebra are prepared for the more rigorous math and science track in high school, and those who do not are not.
In one of SAS's reports, they told the difference between the average SAT Math scores of kids with similar demonstrated math ability who took 8th grade algebra vs. those who took 9th grade algebra. The difference was significant.
These kids don't self select. The schools and teachers hand pick who gets to take that top track. And I don't think it is on purpose, but they hand select in racially biased ways.
A kid who has top track high school math and science is going to have higher SAT scores, will be prepared for many more career choices, and is likely to have higher class rank (therefore qualifying for more scholarships or college admissions at better schools).
It is not the end of the world if they are denied these opportunities. But it isn't fair. And it doesn't make sense to do this.
The fact that plenty of people are happy with almost no ability to think quantitatively or analytically doesn't make it okay to track qualified kids into low classes. That is just stupid.
Don't you wonder why this is even an issue? Why don't we want all the qualified kids tracked high? And then help them succeed if help is needed.
"In one of SAS's reports,
Thu, 09/30/2010 - 11:30 — danofnc"In one of SAS's reports, they told the difference between the average SAT Math scores of kids with similar demonstrated math ability who took 8th grade algebra vs. those who took 9th grade algebra. The difference was significant."
Is there a way to determine if one extra math class made the difference? Do you know which report? I'd love to see just how significant the difference was.
It is really obvious to me that in some cases, putting kids in advanced classes is going to have them struggling to keep up. Now, I don't think that means that they should be denied access to the classes if they are capable. But, I do think that AP classes should be for the best and the brightest (regardless of their race or SES).
EVAAS analyzes data. But, the weighting applied to each data point is determined by a person, right? I am simply not so quick to ignore the opinions of trained professionals who are with the kids every single day.
I think that EVAAS recommends students for 8th grade algebra if they have a 70% chance of passing. Is that really a good percentage to select? How many of the kids held out by WCPSS that EVAAS would recommend are between 70-80% on EVAAS? 80-90%? Do we really want kids in advanced classes who have a 75% chance of passing it? I think we should be in an outrage if kids who were predicted at 95% by EVAAS were denied admission.....but as that predictor goes down, so should the level of concern, IMO.
I am a long way from having to decide on these things (my oldest is a 2nd grader), but I just am not sure I'd want her in an advanced class that she only had a 70% chance of passing. If my kid was < 90% on the EVAAS predictor, I'd have to think long and hard before I let her sign up for 8th grade algebra. That thinking would include speaking with her teacher. The teacher's recommendation would carry a lot of weight.
Maybe their accountability
Thu, 09/30/2010 - 13:20 — klanders65Maybe their accountability report will tell us how many are kept out in those ranges. That would be important. I know WFRMS found 100 in the 70-100 range, and only placed the kids who were in the 80-100 range. The principal said many were in the 90-100, including the highest scoring kid in the class.
My experience is that kids are being left out even when in the top of the top range. I can appreciate your concern for kids in the bottom of the range. Maybe we need to verify how many are in the top of the range. I think it is a lot.
I just found the report from SAS. Some staff got this at a conference they went to that SAS held. I am not sure it is published. It is called Mathematics Talent Identification and Reclamation in Wake County School District. Maybe Kueng can get a copy and make it available. I just have it printed. They compare the top quartile of students who took 8th grade algebra vs. those who took 9th. Their mean Math SATs are 634 vs. 599 respectively. Then they tell what % of both these groups met the state average math SAT(96% vs. 91%), NCSU average (66% vs. 43%), and NCSU Physics/Math major average (51% vs. 27%).
As far as do we really want kids in advanced classes if they may not be ensured of passing, ... I think we have a different problem here. That argument is very sound if the alternative were meaningful courses that met the educational needs to prepare kids for jobs in this century. But that is not the alternative. The "not top" track of math is almost worthless. It doesn't have to be but it is. So the choice is take meaningless worthless math (then take remedial make up math in college), or risk maybe not passing in a meaningful class that prepares you for a multitude of opportunities that you have no chance at if you don't take this class. This is what needs to change.
I don't care if people are not ready at age 14 for advanced concepts, but would be ready at age 16. That would be fine with me. But if you aren't ready by age 14 you don't get a chance at age 16. I know someone posted that their high school is going to let kids go from 9th grade algebra to Honors, and that is good. But I hope they are changing 9th grade algebra to be rigorous like 8th grade algebra so that kids will be prepared.
I keep getting confused but
Thu, 09/30/2010 - 13:36 — carson79I keep getting confused but I have a question about the study you are citing - how do they control for the fact that kids who are not as good at math make lower SAT's in math?
I'm trying to say is it possible that the fact that the kids scored lower on the math SAT's is evidence that the teacher knew their lower aptitude level?
Please don't get upset or riled up, I'm just thinking allowed.
I do think that a lot fo the EVAAS, algebra placement, EI stuff has become twisted beyond recognition on this blog and I try to read and understand but it seems like some things have become accepted as "fact" that are less proven than the "diversity policy = higher achievement" belief before...
I totally understand what
Thu, 09/30/2010 - 14:00 — klanders65I totally understand what you are saying. It makes intuitive sense.
What EVAAS does is what SAS does for businesses. It takes mountains of data and analyzes it to see what we can predict from what is known. It includes information about teachers (e.g., it can tell which teachers again and again have students with lower predictions yet they routinely succeed, etc.). So the predictions are for kids who are taught by teachers whose kids basically do as predicted.
If the prediction says two kids are equivalent, and just as likely to succeed if they take advanced math and get an average teacher, this is based on tens of thousands of kids with the same predictions over years and across the state. The model would include race if race was found to have different probabilities but it didn't.
So, you are saying that maybe EVAAS predict same probability for these two kids, but the teachers can see that extra thing not in the data and can select the more able kid. The teacher selected kid gets tracked high and then anyone who gets tracked high is going to score higher. (Just like anyone who takes Japanese is going to score higher on a Japanese test than someone who didn't take Japanese.)
Who ever gets tracked high is going to score higher than those who did not get tracked high no matter what-because they learn more. You are asking how we know that the teachers didn't select the actual smartest kids and that is why they scored higher?
You would only know by doing an analyses. You could easily set up an experiment. You'd have to compare outcomes of teacher recommended kids to EVAAS identified kids who also got placed. Someone could run this analyses for the schools like WFRMS that had both groups actually take algebra. I think some other schools and some whole counties have placed kids using EVAAS after teacher recommendations. Someone could get this data and analyze it to answer the question you are asking.
Maybe E&R could do this with schools in WCPSS if they know who is EVAAS placed vs. who had teacher recommendations.
"Don't you wonder why this
Thu, 09/30/2010 - 11:19 — user12345"Don't you wonder why this is even an issue? Why don't we want all the qualified kids tracked high? And then help them succeed if help is needed."
I thought I remember a post with an interview with a teacher who did not recommend a qualified Hispanic girl for Algebra because, "her family was going through a lot and the teacher thought the added stress and more homework would be detrimental" ... best intentions have life time affect.
STEM
Thu, 09/30/2010 - 10:42 — lferreriI completely agree. I want to add one more thing. There are many, many initiatives in education today (google "STEM and education" to see what's happening) to increase student interest in Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math. So, from society's point of view, it is counterproductive to exclude capable students from classes that would open them up for success in these fields. We are spending millions of dollars and thousands of hours to encourage students to take classes that prepare them for these careers. Then not letting them enroll when they are qualified seems a real waste not just for the students but for society too.
removing kids
Thu, 09/30/2010 - 07:59 — turnerk1We were told at my daughter's middle school that after the 20th day a school could not remove a child from Algebra I because the state requires that any child who is enrolled in Algebra I on day 20 must take the EOC.
There you have it.....
Thu, 09/30/2010 - 16:15 — exYank_WCprinany decent Algebra teacher an tell if a student will "make it" in Algebra within 20 days, that is without endless tutoring and comments from parents that it is the "teacher's fault" my child isn't doing well. The "problem" is not Algebra per se but the next class, Geometry. The curriculum is designed so that highly motivated middle school math students (level 4 in 8th grade Alg) go on to Advanced Geometry in 9th grade. Unless your kid is top notch you don't want your kid in this fast moving course, again unless you want to spend a great deal on tutors, stress, etc. So...if you child ends up with a C or D in 8th grade Algebra where does he/she go inhigh school???. High schools are now forced to offer "levels" of Algebra based on who has had it in middle school, what grade they had, and/or who has moved in from what state (which may or may not offer it to even their highest performing students.)
Then there are the Algebra EOC scores in middle school, but that a whole other story
Gag
Thu, 09/30/2010 - 16:36 — Bob_SconceNorth Carolina's Geometry curriculum is "fast-paced"??? Oy. I thought it was horribly watered down when I looked at it. Euclidian Geometry is the first math class where students actually do proofs, so it's really foundational and deserves to be in a class by itself. Yet, the state has watered it down with a bunch of other unrelated stuff that should be taught in other courses, if at all.
Here are some things currently taught in NC geometry classes:
Probability, coordinate transformations**, matricies, volume of geometric solids** and triginometry. The **'d items are really mathematical dead-ends which should just be dropped; volume of solids is always just a matter of looking up the right formula in a book, and coordinate transformation is practically useless. Matricies should be taught in algebra, triginometry in trig, and probability in a variety of non-geometry classes.
Reforming the Standard Course of Study would be a big key to improving how NC students are educated. Unfortunately, the State seems heck-bent on using it as some sort of state-wide experiment. (Consider, for example, the recent, thankfully dropped, proposal to not teach anything before Reconstruction in HS US history classes.)
Excuse me I wasn't clear...
Thu, 09/30/2010 - 19:45 — exYank_WCprinif you come out of 8th grade as a level 4 Alg you are placed in an Advanced Geo class comprised of only 9th graders who are "fast tracked" for AP Cal by your senior year...and no not all are destined for Cal.
And btw stop be a wise a$$ about a subject you know little...placement in high school math....as I understand it you have elementary students which limits your perspective on anything above 4th grade
I have perspective and
Thu, 09/30/2010 - 20:54 — klanders65I have perspective and credentials. Bob S is right.
And what can you
Fri, 10/01/2010 - 09:38 — exYank_WCprintell me about the success or failure of your students in your high school math classes preferably Adv and Regular Geometry or Adv or Regular Algebra II based on their 8th grade EOG scores. Also how did those who had Algebra I in 8th grade perform in your classes?
And for all the criticism you and Bob want to throw at the State curriculum, Wake's students go on to success at Harvard, WF, Duke, UNC, etc.
SAS report
Sun, 10/03/2010 - 20:18 — lferreriThere is a SAS report addressing the issue of subsequent success. I believe Keung has a link to it here somewhere. (The title is "Mathematics Talent Identification".) The researchers checked on students who had a 70% or greater probability of success, enrolled in 8th grade Algebra, and subsequently took Algebra II. 92% of them scored Level III or IV on the Algebra II EOC.
Sure...
Fri, 10/01/2010 - 13:37 — Bob_SconceBut, not particularly many. I used to do alumni interviewing for my alma-mater (a highly-ranked school), and the only Wake students I ever talked to were at Enloe. I don't think you can attribute their success to the high quality of the Standard Course of Study. Good teachers can make up for a crappy state-mandated curriculum.
By fast-paced he may mean
Thu, 09/30/2010 - 17:23 — DrActualFactualBy fast-paced he may mean that due to the block schedule at HS level they cover all the geometry in a semester, then they take other classes for a semester or two until the next math class. Some HS will let kids take Algebra 1 in MS then Algebra II in HS and then geometry so the order is sometimes different based on the school you attend. According to Wake's program planning guide there may be some trig included in Geometry Honors class, our HS doesn't offer the Analytic geometry/trig course listed (perhaps only available at a magnet school???) No trig in Calc or precalc so hopefully trig is not used much in life or college.
Yeah...
Thu, 09/30/2010 - 17:32 — Bob_SconceSo, for me, the structure was:
9th grade: Geometry
10th grade: Algebra-II
11th grade: Triginometry/pre-calc
12th grade: Calculus
When do you learn things like the sine law and the cosine law if not in a Trig class? Hopefully they're not trying to pack a semester of Triginometry into 9th grade Geometry.
I Sure Hope They're Packing
Thu, 09/30/2010 - 18:50 — fiveblindmicetrigonometry rather than triginometry! ;)
Bob ... your opinion
Thu, 09/30/2010 - 18:35 — user12345Bob ... your opinion please.
I am having trouble with Calculus ... I have an engineering degree and took it in 12th grade ... but do all kids need it? ... do you still use it? ... I use Statistics and Discrete Mathematics in my every day life much more than Calculus or Trigonometry ... I wonder if we have kids following an engineer's route when many will be business folks.
Interesting
Fri, 10/01/2010 - 09:36 — Bob_SconceI think you're right about day-to-day usage, and I was a math major. I have never used calculus outside of some educational setting. I also think statistics is a very useful class to be taught in high school, largely because people are presented with statistical information every day and, without some formal training in statistics, it's very easy to be fooled.
I don't know if that affects the role of calculus in high school -- for one, colleges use it as a signal of your ability to understand complex and somewhat abstract subjects. Once you get it, it also gives you a better understanding of how the world works. HS physics is the same thing; knowing about angular momentum, for example, explains why a bicycle stays up. Plus, I think that the US needs to focus a lot more on the hard sciences, sort of like what happened after Sputnik went up. Most of that focus happens in college, but without Calculus, you won't be ready for the college courses.
Sine/cosine unit is touched
Thu, 09/30/2010 - 17:55 — DrActualFactualSine/cosine unit is touched on briefly via calculator in H.Geometry. Precalc covers more on trig although it is not mentioned in the course guide. Calculus will probably build off that as well.
Most high schools offer a
Fri, 10/01/2010 - 00:06 — jeffrey1Most high schools offer a trig class. And pre-calc covers a lot of trig. Approximately 50% of pre-calc is trig. And it is rigorous and fast paced -- you get roughly a semester's worth of trig covered in 9 weeks when you take pre-calc.
You need 4 math credits in 8 semesters of high school in order to graduate. I don't think you can take trig and pre-calc and get 2 math credits. Most kids who are not on an engineering or science path will take:
Algebra I
Algebra II
Geometry
Advanced Functions and Modeling (AFM)
AFM was introduced a few years ago to allow students to get that 4th math credit without having to take pre-calc.
If you want to pursue a engineering or science path, the path is:
Algebra I
Algebra II
Geometry
AFM (optional, but IMO highly recommended)
Pre-Calc
Calculus
In Wake, the order in which you take Algebra II and Geometry seems to vary from school to school. And as a math tutor, I highly recommend students take AFM after Geometry. It is a good course to reinforce algebra and geometry principles, and seems to benefit most students who go on to pre-calc and calculus.