Here's a taste of the kind of questioning that the student assignment plan could get from the new Wake County school board majority.
During last week's ED task force meeting, new Wake school board member Jim Martin grilled staff during a Q&A on how the new plan is being presented to parents. He was concerned that the choice process isn't being adequately explained to parents, especially those who are less educated.
After hearing the staff presentation about the community outreach efforts, Martin, who has been a citizen member of the ED task force, said they were "getting a lot of the 10,000 ft. story."
Martin gave an example of an African-American dad who is working three jobs, has a third-grade reading level and had school discipline problems so he's scared to talked to school officials but knows he needs to because of the choice plan. He asked how staff would talk about the choice plan to that kind of person.
Chief Transformation Officer Judy Peppier said staff won't tell the parents where to go. But she said staff will show the parent the list of school choices, explain what the test results mean, explain the distances from home, talk about transportation and before and after-school options.
Martin asked what about if the person can barely read. Peppler responded that staff will be reading along with the parent the information.
"At the end of the day, the parents will make the decision, but they (staff) know to emphasize the high-performing schools and the regional-choice schools," Peppler said.
Martin asked how staff would emphasize the high-performing schools. Peppler responded they'd explain it has very good test scores and growth as shown by state exams.
Peppler added that it would be a very one-on-one individualized process with parents.
“It communicates to me the Ph.d. professor," Martin said. "For someone with a third-grade reading level, they will find it a challenge.”
Peppler said that person might be challenged if he was doing it by himself. She cited how they walked through the choices with a lot of parents. She said they will reach out to people who haven't made a choice yet.
Toward the end of the discussion, ED task force member Marvin Pittman said staff needs to send another message that the choice plan "isn't easy." He said it needs to be communicated to parents that it's a new system, "but it's not the best thing since sliced bread."
Pittman said they shouldn't try to sell it a a bill of goods or say it's easy to understand. Pittman said "intelligent educated people" are telling him that it's not an easy plan.
Comments
From the tone of this post
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 14:49 — DrActualFactualFrom the tone of this post it sounds like Dr. Martin "grilled" staff to the point that they were intimidated and indicated that they "know to emphasize the regional choice schools and high performing schools" (why should they bias their presentation in any way for ANY audience). The facts should be presented and IF the parents want to select a local school vs. a distant school the process shouldn't be biased to push them or anyone else out. Staff shouldn't be encouraged to lead parents in a specific direction--just to provide information so the parent can be informed enough to make the best selection for their child. Chuck Dulaney was despised for pushing people into schools they didn't want. I thought we had gotten past the days of strong-arming students into unwanted assignments.
Intimidation.......deja vu
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 21:31 — HJ2ss2Intimidation.......deja vu
I get it Jim...Stupid people
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 13:29 — shearertwI get it Jim...Stupid people can't possibly understand this plan like us PhD's can...
So let's drop the whole darn thing, go back to diversity busing and create a bunch more stupid people.
Nicely done. I thought it would take at least two weeks for your liberal arrogance to bubble up.
WHERE DO I BEGIN?!
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 13:47 — criticalthinkerLet's see...he's saying the plan is hard for anyone to understand...
And...where/when did he mention diversity busing? Do you have some sort of mind-reading ability...not to mention ability to predict the future...that allows you to know what he has in store for us?
And...you're saying that diversity busing creates stupid people...and I'd say that it doesn't create them...rather...the irrational fear of it makes the real stupid people turn over their rocks and...squinting in the rare sight of sunshine...complain.
I'm guessing Jim Martin figures his supporters like him a lot more for what he says than how he says it.
If I could read minds, then
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 14:23 — shearertwIf I could read minds, then I would have some clue of why Jim's supporters like him...until then, I'll be clueless, no doubt. Of course, you can't read a book with blank pages.
Diversity busing doesn't create stupid people, but it certainly doesn't create smart ones either. If fact, it may inhibit the creation of smart people. Generally, it keeps things pretty mediocre which is where I think Jim wants it. Jim's statements seem to show he'd like to plan to simple enough to cator to the lowest common denominator (or else he wouldn't have drummed up such an extreme example). That would not be an unusual position for a liberal to take. Like most liberals, he prefers everything to be equally bad for all (except for the "elites" of course). His line of questioning sounded like the what if game my children like to play...."What if it gets dark...what if the lights don't work, what if the flash light doesn't work, what if you can't find a candle, what if the lighter doesn't work, what if the sun doesn't come up....." It seems that if there is an alternative assignment policy that is not to his liking, he will not be on board if there is one person in the entire system who can't figure it out. I have news for you, outside of a strictly 100% proximity based assignment policy, we cannot possibly have an assignment policy in WCPSS that everyone will understand
Likewise, to assume Jim would be in support of returning the school system to the previous assignment policy is not such a stretch given the outrage he show'd when it was being eliminated. Can you remind me what his alternative solution was again?
The Great One's supporters deserve him
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 15:13 — FSandYOULet's see how long they stick by the arrogant one once he starts sticking it to them.
Quality BOE meeting
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 15:07 — RKCurtrightOverall the meeting last night was very constructive. They all voted to proceed with Athens upgrades. They all voted for the special needs school needs.
As far as the 5-4 votes I'd love it if it became standard if every board member would post their specific reasoning for their votes the next day on the wcpss website. It would help the public understand better all perspectives.
I'm not sure why Prickett, Malone, Tedesco, and Goldman voted against moving the Chair/vice Chair vote from June to December. I'd be very interested to hear of their stances on this.
I'm not sure I agree with outing JT from his VC position and this would be helpful as well that our board members post their resoning for this.
I can certainly see why Jim Martin can get on peoples' nerves. I actually have family members like Jim and all I can say is we all have our strengths and our flaws. Keep in mind that those who complain the most about someone are usually the ones most blind to their own short comings :}
I agree, you're clueless
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 14:56 — criticalthinkerNo one is disputing his outrage - or mine - at the end of the economic diversity plan.
But only those on the far right are assuming (and you know the saying about what three words are contained in that word) that the Democrats will commit political suicide by trying to completely go back to how things were.
It's the Republicans who own the return quest to the Dark Ages.
As for the lowest common denominator, actual smart people generally get behind trying to have everyone understand what's going on. It tends to help public institutions function to the best of their abilities...you know...democracy...
Personally, I kind of like having a militant, intellectual attack dog involved here. His presence acts as a counterbalance to the know-nothing, anti-intellectual, let's-have-non-educators-in-charge-of-public-education lobby.
I believe he sees his role as just that.
And this pisses many off, as does Susan Evans, by basically saying that many in the suburbs wouldn't know what diversity looks like if it bit them.
It's just another retelling of the famous line uttered by Jack Nicholson's character in A Few Good Men.
As far as I can tell, the choice plan is real good for the affluent areas, not so good for everyone else.
And likewise, the very bright and the very poor are underserved, as usual.
But, as usual, just about everyone else, which ends up being the majority, complains like there's no tomorrow.
We all know the plan needs to be - and hopefully - will be - tweaked.
Let's try to wait until there are actions to actually ponder before we pronounce the end of the world.
Wouldn't know what it looks like if it bit them
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 00:44 — nmoskalWhat does it look like?
Answer:
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 12:04 — criticalthinkerMe.
Sorry, not sure I understand
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 20:49 — nmoskalIn what way?
Not sure I do either!
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 21:10 — carson79what is it that you are trying to say?
Are you are asking what diversity means to this poster?
Yes
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 21:57 — nmoskalThe poster referred to Susan Evans' comment and mentioned that many in the suburbs wouldn't know what diversity looks like if it bit them. So, I asked what it looks like.
There's a diversity of viewpoints about the concept of diversity, so I was trying to understand the posters viewpoint of what diversity looks like.
Oh ok - not knowing what
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 22:24 — carson79Oh ok - not knowing what something looks like if it bit you is an expression - it does not literally mean that the poster is saying that people don't know what diversity looks like.
I know
Fri, 12/09/2011 - 03:01 — nmoskalI know it is an expression. However, the expression is used to indicate that the person it is being said about is completely unfamiliar with or offbase on a concept.
I would still like to know what the poster's concept of diversity is that they feel some people wouldn't know if it bit them. I was looking for a description of what diversity means (or looks like) to them. Some people think of diversity in terms of a certain demographic mixture while other people think of diversity in terms of people or differing viewpoints being valued and respected. Additionally, thoughts about demographic mixture vary.
I've lived in areas that were relatively economically heterogeneous, but racially homogeneous (50% ED, 50% NED, 90% white) - is that diverse?
I've lived in areas that were relatively racially heterogeneous, but economically homogeneous - is that diverse?
What about an area that is 50% White, 30% Asian, 10% Black and 10% Hispanic and 90% middle-class - is that diverse?
What about an area that is 90% White (per US Census definition white includes anyone of European, Middle Eastern and North African decent) and 60% of them are Christians of European decent, 30% are Muslim of Middle-eastern decent and 10% are Jewish?
Do the answers depend at all on whether or not there is mutual respect between the subgroups?
Is it race, socioeconomics (class), ethnicity, culture, religion, respect? Is it demographic mixture itself or the interactions and viewpoints that constitute diversity?
Go back 150+ years. There were very few Whites up North that lived near or went to school with many, if any, African-Americans because there weren't many African-Americans in the North, yet a large group of those up North believed that slavery should be ended because all men (forget the gender thing for now) are created equal. Meanwhile, Whites and African-Americans lived in physical proximity (on the same property) in the South, but obviously not viewed or treated as equals.
So what does diversity look like?
Great questions
Fri, 12/09/2011 - 10:23 — criticalthinkerMy bad.
Simple answer.
What I really meant to say is something more akin to the fortress reference.
It's more about xenophobia.
This area is way less class-stratified than California, where I'm from.
It's one thing to hear ignorant garbage from trailer trash - and California certainly has it's share of it (no complaints/requests for a definition of trailer trash please - it's possible to be too politically correct).
It's another to hear it from folks in the highest tax brackets.
There's no excuse for it.
In that same SF Bay Area so decried as Moscow West by many on this blog, there are plenty of folks in the suburbs who, as a default, hate on anyone not just like them - and build all kinds of fortresses around them, whether they be made of stone, or simply Stone Age thoughts.
Is this a better line for you?
Many, who have every reason to know better, are mortally afraid of anyone not just like them, and will do just about anything in support of their beliefs.
And just a step down from that you'll find many more who really, just don't want to know about what's out there in the world, for they too, are upset by difference.
That's what I meant by my original comment.
-So let's agree, the only
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 15:24 — shearertw-So let's agree, the only reason the Dems won't go back to busing for diversity is because it would be political suicide, not because busing for diversity was a flawed policy that failed to improve ED performance for decades and may have actually harmed it for a variety of reasons.
"actual smart people generally get behind trying to have everyone understand what's going on. It tends to help public institutions function to the best of their abilities...you know...democracy..."
- The smart people I know get behind trying to have everyone understand what's going on through educating the people, not DUMBING EVERYTHING DOWN! Jim appears to be in favor of the latter.
- Anyone who says that the people in the suburbs wouldn't know what diversity is is an arrogant moron....period.
- Actually, the diverstiy busing plan was the plan only good for the real affluent areas. Let's see...DT affluent Raleighites bused AWAY all their ED students AND created a slew of magnet schools down the street (nice!). The vast majority of people living in the suburbs are the famous "middle class", not affluent. They're dealing with chronic lack of resources and programs for their brightest children, long rides to magnet programs, etc. That hasn't really changed in the new choice plan.....
Critical thinker you are not....You seem to only buy the NAACP line that conservatives are racist pigs and that, instead of being thoughtful, intelligent people who generally believe that most policies are best (for all) when the are based on freedom and individual responsibility, conservatives are only looking out for themselves and could care less about the less fortunate (even though study after study show conservatives to be far more charitable than their liberal counterparts).
In response...
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 15:50 — criticalthinkerI agree that, at this point, it makes no sense for the Democrats to go back.
I don't agree with your views regarding the old economic diversity plan.
I don't really know where you're getting Jim Martin's urge to educate as some sort of dumbing down.
This sounds like the usual, right-wing, intentional projecting.
And I guess I'm an arrogant moron, for I do live in the suburbs, and I can tell you that many of my neighbors are extremely clueless to the fact that the world is bigger than the neighborhood.
We live in an upscale neighborhood. Fancier than some. More pedestrian than others. We're middle class. But compared to most, I consider this an affluent neighborhood. I tend to think that the number of families that can call themselves, and not just their neighborhood, affluent, is not that many. You've got to be the 1% at this point to truly merit that distinction. Everyone else is struggling, even the 5%'ers (if we're even that well off) like us.
As for your last paragraph, you again seem to have way more on your mind than the points actually previously discussed.
Let's revue:
"You seem to only buy the NAACP line that conservatives are racist pigs..."
Um, where did you come up with this one?...
And for that matter...the rest of your paragraph...some saying about putting words in mouths...
Maybe the more accurate statement would be conversing with me makes you speak in tongues, attributing all sorts of your innermost fears to me, rather than having a simple conversation.
Makes for oddly interesting, sometimes amusing grist for the blog mill, but hardly serves to further any actual viewpoints.
And I guess I'm an arrogant
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 18:19 — jenmanAnd I guess I'm an arrogant moron, for I do live in the suburbs, and I can tell you that many of my neighbors are extremely clueless to the fact that the world is bigger than the neighborhood.
Maybe you need to move to a different neighborhood? Seriously, I don't think that people in the 'city' are any less clueless about the world than their suburban counterparts. I've met many people ITB who are completely clueless about what it's like in far North Raleigh and I've met people in my part of North Raleigh who don't have any idea what it's like downtown or ITB. Everybody has their comfort zone that they tend to stay in, doesn't matter whether you live--ITB, Cary, Garner, Zebulon, North Raleigh, where ever. And everybody has their misconceptions of areas other than their own.
How are your neighbors 'extremely clueless' that the world is bigger than the neighborhood? I hear people say things like this but they don't give examples of it.
I think back to Susan Evans' comment about how the people in her area that go to their neighborhood schools have a very narrow world view. Something to that effect. First, according to who? How are we judging that? Second, my family has been at magnets and at our base school. I didn't notice a difference in the 'world view' between the parents or students at those schools.
You can find diversity anywhere if you're interested in looking for it.
Fair questions, one and all
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 10:27 — criticalthinkerYes, I do need to move to a different neighborhood. But the plan is to stick it out until my 8th grader is off to college. We'll be headed back to California.
As for the city/suburbs stuff, I really don't know where you guys are getting that I'm making some sort of blanket statement about what people are like with such a broad brush.
I've never said suburbanites or city dwellers or country folk are all this way or that. And I'd ask you to look carefully at what I've said to see if you're just reacting - lumping me in with whatever comments you've gathered in a lifetime.
As for actual stories, alas, I didn't take notes. It's just my impression/opinion. I know that's a fail, but I'm honestly telling you I don't have proof points all lined up for you.
However, just as you do, I have experience with base versus magnet. And it reminds me of what Sarah Palin said, framing her comments as an us versus them worldview - real Americans versus not.
Well...in my experience, the magnets have a whole lot more of what she'd call the not. And the base school populations, at least the ones that I've experienced here in West Cary, would be the real ones.
You're a much better human being than I if you're positively blind to the difference in worldview that I've noticed between the families involved.
And my 11th grader, who's at a base school, simply doesn't fit in. We blew it. Her friends have ended up being almost entirely South or East Asian. These are the only people she feels she has something in common with. With warm humor, they call her the honorary brownie.
My 8th grader loves her magnet school, and has a diverse group of friends.
So what I'm saying is, in my experience, you're either a magnet kid, or you're not...them versus us.
If what I just said sounds way too much like the broad brush I'm denying using, remember, I said "in my experience". I'm not palming off impressions, opinions, whatever, as fact. And this kind of stuff is certainly in the eye of the beholder.
I think it was when you said
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 12:56 — jenmanI think it was when you said 'many of my neighbors' that made me reach the conclusion that you think suburbanites in general think that way. Thank you for sharing more of your story. It helps me understand where someone is coming from so I really do appreciate it.
We were very fortunate that our base elem school was incredibly diverse--about 1/3 white, 1/3 black, & a 1/3 hispanic and asian. It was more diverse than the magnet elem school we attended for 4 years. Our current magnet middle is only about 20% white, which has been interesting. Not bad by any means, just different.
Although our neighborhood is less diverse than our base elem was, I don't notice a big difference in the 'worldview' of the families here versus at the magnets we've been in. It could just be that the magnets attract families and kids who are interested in the arts and languages so your 8th grader has found it easier to make friends. My oldest definitely would have benefitted from being at Ligon for the social aspect--finding other kids who are interested in 'geeky' stuff like he is.
And thank you for a bit of your story
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 14:01 — criticalthinkerWe all have different experiences which form our viewpoints.
Where I live, the racial demographics are extremely different from those at any available magnets.
So I see a big difference.
Moreoever,
If you look at actual neighborhoods, the difference in worldview is tremendous.
All of this gets played out on small to large scales, kind of like microclimates within bigger ones.
Texas and California just had a conversation about it.
And it's been pointed out that this is about the various culture wars.
Culture wars pretty much dominate the bulk of what's contained in all of history.
None of this is new.
It's what makes this blog go back and forth between those originally responsible for public education, and those who, having a problem with government in general, make it difficult for public education to deliver on its promises.
I'm constantly amazed at how the human race will blame the process up and down before ever considering that it was the attempt that was flawed.
No one wants to own up to missing the mark.
But we'd better be able to be our own worst critics before we expect to make progress.
Unlike most, who are swayed by confidence, I tend to put my trust in those who admit they don't have all the answers, but are willing to make their best effort at improving that situation.
Yeah, I notice how militant Martin and Evans are.
But I like my people real.
So they don't bother me.
Again, I'll reserve judgement until they've been in office long enough for me to be able to review their actions, how skillful their attempts were, and how much they're willing to cop to however things have gone.
I've got to mention it
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 14:25 — jenmanI've got to mention it again--why don't you move to a different neighborhood? Why did you choose to live somewhere so undiverse if diversity is important to you? There are diverse neighborhoods in Wake County.
I don't have an issue with Evans and Martin being militant, I have an issue with them not being objective (from what I have seen so far). Hopefully I will be wrong and they will be willing to look at the issues from all sides. I think Kushner will be objective and is a good addition to the board.
No one wants to own up to missing the mark.
But we'd better be able to be our own worst critics before we expect to make progress.
I appreciate your curiosity
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 14:45 — criticalthinkerThe story of how we ended up right where we did is long, and while amazingly interesting to the people actually involved, probably would have everyone else throwing virtual tomatoes.
Hindsight is 20/20...but then there's the problem of always sitting on your eyes.
Anyway, I'll be extremely glad when it's all in the rearview mirror.
As for Tata, I've heard mostly good things.
And, unlike the previous majority, I'm confident that both sides of the fence will be reasonable in working with his department.
Again, I don't have a problem with Martin and Evans (or Evans and Martin - LOL - starting to sound like ambulance chasers) getting in Tata's face.
I know he can handle it, and, if the board does their job of setting good policy, and Tata and his staff do a good job of implementing it, we'll see improvement.
It's what makes this blog go
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 14:14 — shearertwIt's what makes this blog go back and forth between those originally responsible for public education, and those who, having a problem with government in general, make it difficult for public education to deliver on its promises.
Interesting, there are three places that come to mind when I think of school systems in which liberals have had their way with public education....Unions, tons of tax payer money, tenure, the whole 9 yards. NYC, D.C. and Detroit.
I think the results speak for themselves.
Also, generally, voucher programs (which may be an example of the other extreme) have worked quite well.
Duality
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 17:10 — criticalthinkerYou raise good points.
All the different things and places you've mentioned have two sides.
There's much to like and dislike regarding every single one.
We may disagree on that point, but while I'll not say any of what you've brought up is nearly perfect, I'd also argue that the lack of them (obviously, not the lack of the places) would be very bad.
I think the results speak for themselves - in different, often multiple ways to different sets of ears.
Vouchers are an example of a mixed bag from your side of the fence.
I won't praise nor condemn them, only acknowledge another good post from you, albeit one I don't entirely agree with.
...
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 11:33 — SideburnsSo what I'm saying is, in my experience, you're either a magnet kid, or you're not...them versus us.
Whatever
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 12:02 — criticalthinkerSusan Evans has an opinion, which, when said with more caveats, I tend to agree with.
And you don't.
That's fine.
But remember:
There's a difference between subjective and objective.
Don't find yourself becoming the word you just used.
Well said, Critical Thinker
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 10:59 — gregishereA negative way to say this is that how the two worlds view school assignments in Wake County is just a continuation of the culture wars we see playing out nationally. None of this allows for an island; all are of a piece. (Given, of course, the caveats you mention about "impressions", etc.) Some of us want our kids to live in the world, where diversity and science and literature and lots of foreign languages are the landscape. Others want to build a fortress, a suburb or subdivision, perhaps, and keep out the stuff the makes us uncomfortable. Perhaps it comes down to Emerson: "People wish to be settled; only as far as they are unsettled is there any hope for them."
California's gain will be our loss.
Some of us want our kids to
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 13:23 — jenmanSome of us want our kids to live in the world, where diversity and science and literature and lots of foreign languages are the landscape. Others want to build a fortress, a suburb or subdivision, perhaps, and keep out the stuff the makes us uncomfortable.
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To me, that is a narrow world view. And I am one of those who is in the former group. Some people are really interested in learning about different cultures, foreign languages, the arts, literature, etc and actively seek it out. For others, it's not their thing. Just like watching sports is not mine. It's not about keeping things out that make them uncomfortable or 'building a fortress'.
Flaw
Fri, 12/09/2011 - 14:21 — Dove314There is a wee flaw to your logic -- who decides or decided how diverse a brand new neighborhood is going to be. For example, was Bedford's diversity defined before the first house was built or after the majority of houses were built? with Phase 1? Or was it largely predetermined by where the developers decided what mix of houses and priced the base for each of the tiers of houses? That first person who bought the first house couldn't have known what the final composition of the neighborhood might be but I would suspect they could guess based on the composition of other neighborhoods around the city with similar priced housing. At point, we toured some of the show houses in Bedford early on, and nobody mentioned anything about "diversity" in their sales pitch. It was all about proximity to 540 along with the amenities available in each house.
You're right that with a
Fri, 12/09/2011 - 15:15 — jenmanYou're right that with a brand new neighborhood you won't know who will ultimately live there. But if somebody really wants diversity they can figure out where the more diverse areas or neighborhoods are. It might take a little digging but if it is important to them then they will find out.
It is also up to each individual to decide what diversity means to them. Cary is actually quite culturally diverse and that may appeal to some seeking diversity.
Remember, I'm not talking about somebody who just says they like diversity. I'm talking about the people who complain that without the diversity policy their kids wouldn't be exposed to people who are different from them. Do these people live under a rock? Do they not go anywhere? There are incredible opportunities in Wake County to expose your kids to all kinds of diversity. I'm always amazed when I go to the Wal-Mart on New Hope Church at the number of foreign languages and accents I hear.
Welll...
Fri, 12/09/2011 - 14:30 — Bob_SconceIn that case, those people proably don't really care one way or another beyond what they can tell by the variety of housing prices. Low-income people don't buy $350K houses, after all.
I've seen it
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 13:32 — criticalthinkerI've known many who build fortresses, and a lot of them lived in California.
You can find them anywhere.
Thankfully, you've never impressed me as being one of them.
But there are plenty out there.
What's being said may be uncomfortable.
That, in itself doesn't make it a narrow worldview.
Embracing diversity means
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 14:38 — jenmanEmbracing diversity means accepting that not everybody thinks the same way you do. Some people are perfectly happy eating good old American meat and potatoes every night and have no desire to try anything else. Accepting that without judging is part of embracing diversity.
Hmm..
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 15:44 — Dove314By the same token, embracing diversity also means that those who love meat and potatoes every night not attempt to force everyone else to eat their meat and potatoes because they think they ought to. It doesn't work if allowing everyone to decide their best food choices only goes one way.
What are we talking about
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 16:38 — jenmanWhat are we talking about here?
I agree that nobody should try to force eat meat and potatoes just because that's what they like. I recognize that there are people out there like that, but they are not the norm. Both sides have their extremes but most people fall in the middle.
If we are talking about diversity in our schools, nobody is forcing anybody to eat meat and potatoes. If you want diversity, live in a diverse area, which leads to a diverse school. We also have the magnet program, which offers some degree of diversity. Of course there are issues with the magnet program (not everybody can get a seat, pushing neighborhood kids out, etc). The ultimate responsibility lies in where you choose to live.
I am not sure exactly what
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 19:55 — carson79I am not sure exactly what yall are talking about, but I have to interject again here that I am very troubled by the implication that people that don't live in "diverse" (your version of it I guess) neighborhoods do not "want diversity."
You don't live in an economically diverse neighborhood? Under your theory that means you don't want your kids to go to school with poor kids! That's just insane.
I guess I'm missing the point you are trying to make by saying this.
No, that's not what I'm
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 23:34 — jenmanNo, that's not what I'm saying. I am saying that if you want your children to go to a diverse school or be surrounded by a diverse group of people, then the best way to do that is to live in a diverse neighborhood. All azaleas are rhododendrons. Not all rhododendrons are azaleas.
Living in a non-diverse area doesn't mean that you don't want to be around people who aren't like you. But if somebody is going to complain about how undiverse their area is and say that we must have some sort of diversity busing so their kids can be exposed to people who are different than they are, then I've got to ask why that person doesn't live in a diverse area. (I am not saying that anybody on this thread complained or made this argument. we speaking generally) There are plenty of nice, middle class neighborhoods in Wake County that are diverse.
We were talking about people who want to surround themselves with diversity vs those who want to live in their 'fortress' and forcing one's beliefs on others. If somebody really believes that their children should be surrounded by diversity, then they should live somewhere diverse rather than force other children to be bused around to achieve the 'correct' level of diversity. Nobody is forcing people to live in homogenous neighborhoods, nor are we forcing children of one kind into one school or area. But for somebody to say that they want diversity and that it must be achieved by moving other people's kids around, then that is forcing their wishes and values on others.
I agree
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 17:03 — criticalthinkerI wish more folks would use your common sense...
Pusher
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 14:53 — criticalthinkerLOL
Not you, but unfortunately, all too many are pushing meat and potatoes at everyone.
But I agree, meat and potatoes is fine, in and of itself.
I prefer more exotic dishes.
There's your layup.
Trolls, twist that one any way you like.
Accepted and agreed
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 14:45 — FSandYOUThe kind of diversity I and many others are opposed to is the kind forced upon us by a school system that pretends to know what's best for the student/family.
Not that you asked me.
Basic
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 14:58 — criticalthinkerOkay.
That's a perfectly reasonable point of view.
But I bet if you look back at other posts, I have asked you.
I appreciate your answer.
If you're implying something like "Not that the school district asked me," I get it.
All I can say is you should keep working with it towards how you want it...
...and/or...
...no disrespect...seriously...find one you like better.
This is where having one of
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 16:18 — shearertwThis is where having one of the largest school districts in the country is problematic.
In such a large system, it is simply not possible to appeal to needs and wants of the variety of view points across Wake Co. The people who choose to live in DT or N Raleigh have a different perspective, needs, wants and desire than those living on the rim or in western Wake. Government bureaucracies are simply not nimble or flexible enough to effectively meet such diverse needs or expectations. There is nothing wrong with the direction the former BOE was taking the school system....it appeal to the rim schools and western Wake Co. The former former BOE was doing what was best (in their minds) for the DT and ITB areas. We have no idea where the new BOE will go but it's likely back more in the direction of the DT/ITB needs and desires. You may be happy with that but nearly 50% of the population of Wake Co. will not be. So, unless we decide to finally break this system apart so it can be more effective at meeting the diverse needs of Wake Co. entire population, it will continue for decades to come to fail to meet the needs, wants and desires of nearly 50% of the population in the county. To me, that's unacceptable.
Interesting post
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 16:58 — criticalthinkerCalling all wonks who understand the economics behind staying big versus becoming many districts.
I'm saying I don't know much about this, and want to know if there's a reason, other than inertia, that shows the sense in remaining large.
I've got no opinion on this, other than smaller organizations allow an individual to have their interests more likely to be in line with policies.
I've got a sneaking suspicion though, that the economics of breaking things up, especially these days, may preclude doing so.
But again, I dunno...
Thoughts everyone...anyone...
Interesting...
Fri, 12/09/2011 - 10:00 — Bob_SconceThere are efficiencies of scale from having centralized transportation, for example. And, big districts can allocate resources more efficiently -- when two neighboring school districts might each have a 1/2 full elementary school, combining those districts would allow one of those schools to be closed. But, fundamentally, those aren't really huge effects -- having a big district doesn't change the number of students in a class or the number of classes in a school, and those are the main cost drivers.
The main advantage of a large school district is that it has the ability to do things that small district's can't easily -- magnet schools, or Tata's new Leadership Academies, or a mix of year-round and traditional schedules, etc.... Small districts can do those things by, e.g., banding together with other small districts, but it's just a lot harder.
and, and I've said before,
Fri, 12/09/2011 - 10:51 — shearertwand, and I've said before, I'd prefer to have WCPSS subdivided into districts where some of the economies of scale can be realized but each district could set there own policies around assignments, calendars, class sizes, AG resources, special programs, etc. This would require those districts to work with municipalities to set tax rates, monitor their growth, be more responsible, etc....
Another reason it ain't gonna happen. I don't know why I waste my time thinking about it...
Bob, As to your second
Fri, 12/09/2011 - 10:35 — shearertwBob,
As to your second paragraph...
Small districts may not need or want any of those "extras" you list. By more effectively tailoring their system to the population they serve, magnets, alternative schedules, Leadership Academies, etc become unnecessary distractions.
Yeah...
Fri, 12/09/2011 - 11:37 — Bob_SconceTrue, but you also run the risk of having unmet needs from a few people in the smaller districts.
The district I grew up in currently has 6 schools, all of which are exceptionally good -- among the 6 schools, they have, I think, 10 Dept. of Ed blue ribbon awards, annually send students to top-tier colleges, etc.... But, even there, there were needs that the district could not fill and, so, worked with other nearby districts. A big one was vo-tech: a bunch of districts in the county got together and built a vo-tech high school, where any of their students could enroll.
That's how you get it done
Fri, 12/09/2011 - 11:45 — shearertwThat's how you get it done Bob (referring to your voc example).
Instead of having a small group with unmet needs, we have huge groups who's needs aren't being met. It's far easier to think up creative ways to deal with a small group with an unmet need such as the solution you cite above than to create a one size fits all school system with 145K kids in such a diverse county.