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New Wake County school board member Jim Martin did things a little differently on Tuesday when he took the oath of office.
Martin took the oath on a copy of the N.C. Constitution and the U.S. Constitution. He also affirmed he would carry out his duties, not swear he would.
Martin later explained that he is a Christian. But Martin said he feels so strongly about the separation between church and state that he decided not to swear on a Bible.
Comments
Affirmative
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 16:19 — dseibertQuakers always affirm instead of swearing, because they believe the bit in the Book of Matthew where Jesus said not to swear any oaths on anything, but to simply say yes or no.
That's interesting but
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 16:43 — shearertwThat's interesting but that's not the reason Jim gave....
According to Jim, he did it because he feels strongly about the separation between church and state. This is where he went wrong. His reason suggest he believes you shouldn't have the right to swear on a Bible as a public official if you so choose. Of course, the original purpose of the separation of church and state was to prevent the state from getting in your way of doing just that.
Hmm..
Fri, 12/09/2011 - 15:09 — Dove314Do non-Christians get to swear on their religions' Bible equivalents?
So...
Fri, 12/09/2011 - 16:03 — Bob_SconceCan't speak for swearing-in of school board members, but typically in court, the answer is yes. At swearing-in ceremonies, they are often asked in advance.
Personally, I find ths whole discussion silly. I thought it was silly that Martin felt he had to explain it, it's silly that Joey Stansbury made an issue out of it, and it's silly that we're actually talking about it. Martin will say enough crazy things over the next 4 years that there's no need to go after him for the method he chooses to commit himself to the board's work.
Martin needs to be taken to task
Fri, 12/09/2011 - 17:50 — FSandYOUon each and every moment of his superior stupidity and if it lasts for all 4 years that will be his problem.
It's not our fault he wasn't even sworn in yet before he pulled his first moment of superior stupidity right out of his butt.
I believe that's the idea...
Fri, 12/09/2011 - 16:01 — shearertwI believe that's the idea...
Non-Christians shouldn't be running
Fri, 12/09/2011 - 15:25 — FSandYOUand they darn sure shouldn't be getting elected.
Are you speaking of Jim here? Does he attend Chuck's church?
But Martin said he feels so
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 20:01 — jeffrey1But Martin said he feels so strongly about the separation between church and state that he decided not to swear on a Bible.
Do you also commend him for his ignorance of our constitution? There is no separation of church and state. For someone who brags about his Phd, he knows nothing about our constitution.
Civics Lesson
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 07:02 — hannibalMan, some folks are truly ignorant about the constitution. The "separation of church and state" is a CONCEPT from the first amendment. The establishment clause IS in the first amendment, and THAT is what gives our constitution the separation of church and state.
I bet the constitution doesn't say "don't kill you best friend" either. Does that mean it's okay?
You are the one that is truly ignorant
Fri, 12/09/2011 - 01:26 — jeffrey1"Separation of church and state" is an offshoot of of the phrase, "wall of separation between church and state," as written by Thomas Jefferson in an 1802 letter. Whether or not the first amendment establishes a concept of "separation of church and state" has been debated for years, and will likely be debated for some time to come.
The framers only intention was that the US would not establish an official religion or from favoring one religious view over another. I'm not sure how Martin (a Christian) goes from there to believing that he should not take his oath on the bible.
I think I know
Fri, 12/09/2011 - 08:22 — FSandYOUMartin thinks he's smarter than God!
He's a phD you know.
the word "God" appears
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 20:12 — NCnative62the word "God" appears nowhere in the book of Esther; does that mean no one connected with that book of the Bible believes in God or intended any assertions about God?
the word "God" appears
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 22:48 — jeffrey1the word "God" appears nowhere in the book of Esther; does that mean no one connected with that book of the Bible believes in God or intended any assertions about God?
The founding fathers of this country never expected any leader to turn his back on his beliefs while making decisions. Do you disagree?
It's good to see Jim's supporters from Enloe
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 20:59 — FSandYOUand other elite establishments chime in on his behalf after only being on board a few hours.
Maybe Jim would like to reach out to the community at all levels and share his thoughts with the bloggers and closet pundits here.
Maybe we can start with your campaign truth stretching and squabble with Super Tata. What say you about that Jim Martin? Do you intend to spend the next four years telling your constituents what they should be doing, just as you spent the last two years disrespecting the board and sharing your superior thoughts with them?
Can you pull yourself away from the Constitution long enough to let us know what else you stand for?
I commend Prof Martin for
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 18:05 — finalfrontierI commend Prof Martin for his courage and conviction in this matter.
No matter...
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 15:38 — braifordIf I am an honest man, swearing on a Bible won't change the value of what I say.
If I'm a dishonest man, swearing on a Bible won't change the value of what I say.
So swearing on a Bible is showmanship in the first place. Jim Martin should be commended for "affirming" his allegiance to our governmental principles (appropriate for a public servant) vs. making some sort of religious statement (inappropriate for a public servant).
Are ya’ll upset
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 15:16 — NCnative62Are ya’ll upset with his politics or his expression of his religious beliefs?
I’m guessing some of you would be quoting “an eye for an eye” (out of context) if this were a different subject, so consider the following:
34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.
Jesus’ words according to Matthew 5:34-37 (NIV)
To a republican..
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 15:34 — bpuli9999religion is politics. And politics is religion.
Well, then, let all the
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 15:38 — NCnative62Well, then, let all the people say: Praise the L- I mean, the Chair of the Party!!
Only the beginning from the great one
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 15:07 — FSandYOUTOLD YOU SO!
He probably supports no prayer in school, saying happy holiday instead of Merry Christmas and will be demanding a day off for ramadan in the near future. Yeah, you guys elected a winner there.
TOLD YOU SO!
When did...
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 15:08 — bpuli9999you tell us?
You were probably helping lick stamps or napping
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 15:20 — FSandYOUand missed that important info.
Why don't you post...
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 17:10 — bpuli9999a link to when you posted it?
Why don't you worry about your future
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 17:15 — FSandYOUSince you couldn't keep up,
the past is the least of your concerns with this board.
Got caught in your own little...
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 11:00 — bpuli9999web of lies? Go read the bible - maybe you will find the part where it talks about not lying.
Please remove the S
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 11:19 — FSandYOUfrom my name and enjoy.
As for your statement, no idea what you are talking about. But you have that same problem don't you.
OT: Effective Schools
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 13:53 — Bob_SconceNew paper from Harvard: http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/fryer/files/effective_schools.pdf
An excerpt from the abstract:
Important Caveats
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 22:16 — nriemannFryer is very sharp and says a lot of interesting things. His last piece addressed the utility of merit pay for teachers in one particular setting. (It had none.)
This study is also interesting, but the negative findings about class size, etc. simply confirm other research, and the positive findings are subject to important caveats. One is the difference between explanation and causation. As Fryer puts it, the relationship between inputs and effectiveness is "unlikely to be causal." Unobserved factors may cause the results. Another is that the results may not be valid for public schools at large; the studied group was a subset of charters. Other caveats were also identified, but these are the most pertinent.
True...
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 00:17 — Bob_SconceThey need to look into it more. But, in any study, there's always an argument of how far you can carry it, whether the methodology was good, and so on. Unfortunately, that's where our biases tend to take over. I like this study, partially because it jibes with my view of the world; others probably take issue with it because it doesn't jibe with theirs. It's a huge problem in the social sciences.
Interesting paper. I would
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 16:07 — virginiadareInteresting paper. I would point out that many of the measures they found to correlate with school effectiveness are a big part of PLT's and how that time can be used for maximum effect, i.e. frequent teacher feedback, the use of data to guide instruction, and even the high-dosage tutoring and high expectations could and should be maximized through the teacher collaboration done in PLT's. I believe the paper is evidence that collaboration, not competition, is what it will take to build better teachers and teaching methodology, and thus improve achievement and educational outcomes for all students.
I'm thinking this was all
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 13:20 — shearertwI'm thinking this was all about attention for Jim....
Of course the "separation of church and state" is about preventing the state from getting in your way of exercising your right to practice your religion such as choosing to swear on a Bible, etc., not vice versa. Therefore, Jim can swear on whatever he chooses too.
If only there was a “book of Jim”, perhaps then he wouldn’t have had a problem with it.
Give him time and there will
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 13:24 — starsonoursGive him time and there will be the book of Jim, it will also be available as an audio book read by the author.
You mean the PhD professor
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 13:31 — shearertwYou mean the PhD professor who is smarter than the stupid parents of Wake Co. who can't figure out what the best school for their children to attend is?
Martin has a PhD? Wow I
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 13:43 — starsonoursMartin has a PhD? Wow I haven't heard about that. (Haven't heard it in the last 2 minutes that is...)
WOW!!!!
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 20:09 — jgegbgmgWonder what degrees Margiotta had? How about Tedesco? OOPS - No wonder they were and are so far in over their heads. Margiotta is still probably wondering what happened in the election and Tedesco should get some more schooling so he can understand when DR. Martin speaks instead of having that blink look on his face!!!! By the way, it looks like you are really struggling with the election outcome - Maybe the next 6+ years will not be too hard on you - Plus you can enjoy writing your negative blogs to get the disappointment off your chest. GOOD LUCK!!!
Thanks for the "amateur
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 21:11 — starsonoursThanks for the "amateur psychoanalysis but you may want to stick to your day job. I have no problems with the election results, I do have a problem when people running for office do not live up to their campaign promises. If you think that by pointing this out I am being "negative" then that is your problem and I hope you are able to work through it. Dr. Martin has a PhD in Chemistry, if I have a problem that relates to chemistry he would be on my short list of people to call. But I also understand that having a PhD in Chemistry does not mean that you are the go to person for all problems. I doubt when he earned his PhD he was told you now have a mastery of Chemistry and all matters related to running a public school system. You may have a fascination for Dr. Martin and his PhD, but others would prefer to see what he can do and not worship him for the level of education he has. I am glad he was elected he will provide comic relief for the next 4 years. Thanks for your concern but I think I will be OK.
Not that there's anything wrong with it...
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 13:02 — fiestamomThe phrase "separation of church and state" doesn't even appear in the US Constitution that he "affirmed."
So...
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 13:15 — Bob_SconceBut, the NC Constitution contains this, even though it's completely unenforceable:
The following persons shall be disqualified for office:
First, any person who shall deny the being of Almighty God.
It's Not Only Unenforceable, It's Outright Illegal
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 15:00 — chaboard...at least since the 14th Amendment to the US Constituion was ratified.
And kudos to Martin for standing up for religious freedom. Small gesture but they count too.
How was his action standing
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 15:06 — shearertwHow was his action standing up for religious freedom, exactly?
He said he's a Christian, he's free to swear on the Bible if he chooses to. He chose not to in an act that seemed to show he didn't think he should've had the choice.
Martin believes that
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 15:08 — danofncMartin believes that government decisions should not be based on religious beliefs.
As someone who agrees with that stance, I respect his decision not to swear on a Bible.
Which core beliefs would you
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 15:32 — shearertwWhich core beliefs would you prefer him to base his decisions on?
Which Christian belief would you not want a government decision to be influence by?
Do you honestly not belief that our current Constitution was influenced by religious beliefs?
I'd prefer him to base his
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 17:26 — danofncI'd prefer him to base his decisions on his core beliefs, because those should be what got him elected.
I consider myself a Christian, but I don't have a problem with gay marriage. Other Christians have huge problems with it. We both use the same Bible, though, so who is right?
Most of the laws that match up with scripture are also pretty much common sense. Do you think it would be OK to kill or steal if the Bible didn't tell us not to?
So if Christianity is part
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 19:56 — shearertwSo if Christianity is part of his core beliefs you're ok with that...
Mostly, you seem to be making my point for me even better than I did....
You are ignoring
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 20:56 — Solon77You are ignoring that the core belief's came well before Christianity came on the scene and are a part of every society regardless of the religion.
Not ignoring that at
Thu, 12/08/2011 - 09:13 — shearertwNot ignoring that at all...Of course many of the core beliefs of Christianity can be aligned with the core beliefs of other religions. I'm just simply asking which core beliefs of Christianity must Christians put aside when they're in public office? ....Also, why single out the core beliefs of "religion" and not ask everyone, such as believers of liberalism or socialism, to also set aside their core beliefs when in public office as well?
Exactly
Wed, 12/07/2011 - 15:23 — FSandYOUSee some of the other things The Great One probably believes in above.