How will a return to neighborhood schools reshape property values in Raleigh and Wake County?
As noted in today's article by Sarah Ovaska, one person told Raleigh real estate agent Anne Sherron that he's backing out of a deal because of the school board election results. She said the person had been looking at moving his family and his start-up technology company to Raleigh from Austin, Texas.
“He emailed me and said I’ve put my decision on hold indefinitely until I see whether Raleigh is going to end up like Charlotte,” said Sherron, a supporter of the diversity policy, in the article.
John Chesser, a researcher with UNC-Charlotte's Urban Institute, found that Charlotte-Meck's switch to neighborhood schools hurt the property values of schools whose poverty percentages shot up.
Raleigh Mayor Charles Meeker, who attended the Friends of Diversity press conference, is worried about property values in Southeast Raleigh falling if major changes are made to turn magnet schools into neighborhood schools.
On the flip side, some areas could see a boost in property values if there's a belief that reassignment is less likely.
The areas around rim schools could also benefit if they lose the kids who are bused in for diversity.
Comments
Whoa!
Wed, 10/21/2009 - 16:23 — louiselee44I remember well all of the emails I got from people (strangers) who were thinking of moving to Wake County, concerned about the upcoming plans to mandate YR school attendance. I also got plenty of letters from parents who decided NOT to move here, or who moved away due to the MYR issue. Here's just one example (husband and wife) from May, 2006!
Tim King said... “Can I sign the petition [against MYR schools] if I do not live in Wake County. My wife and I have our home up for sale in Florida with the hopes of moving to Wakefield. But since the recent developments of the year-round schools, we have halted our move :( We absolutely LOVE the area and it is our dream to build a house there, but having 3 kids in different grade levels (elementary, middle & high) year-round school would kill our family time to travel or do anything together. Another question...if the school board approves in May and the bond goes on the ballot on November...if the bond does not get approved, do year round schools go bye-bye???”
8:04 AM, May 01, 2006
“My name is Nancy King and we currently reside in Central Florida. We are thinking of moving to Wake County area in Wakefield, but now are so hesitant due to the schools going year-round. I just do not see how that makes anyone happy. Even when I read what the school board is saying about it, they seem saddened and discouraged, which in my opinion is a good sign that this may not be a good idea if even the school board members are sad about it. Anyhow, do you know the latest on this issue? My realtor keeps telling me that there is a lot of opposition and that it probably won't go through, but I need to hear the truth before I sell my home and leave my family and friends for our big move!!! Any info on the subject would be greatly appreciated! I have been on Wake counties website and it seems as though the elem. is definitely going year-round. What about middle and high school? If/when this passes, I will have a 4th grader, 9th grader and 11th grader. Thank you for your time and keep up the good work!!!"
Nancy King
PS- we tried YRS in FL and it flopped!!!”
LL, When we moved here in
Wed, 10/21/2009 - 16:41 — shearertwLL,
When we moved here in March of 2007, YR was the biggest concern we had and was the driving factor in where we purchased our home. Without the YR issue, there is no doubt we would have purchased a different home. YR almost prevented our move. I wish I had contacted you first back then.
...
Wed, 10/21/2009 - 14:10 — SideburnsA little bit more about Sherron -- back from 2000:
"Anne Sherron, PTA co-president of Douglass Elementary, noted that changing Carroll to a year-round will greatly effect and disrupt populations in surrounding schools. Sixty-three percent of parents at Douglass responded to a survey, with 221 opposing Carroll as yearround, and 58 supporting the change."
http://www.wcpss.net/Board/minutes/10-23-2000--minutes.pdf
hey, WOW, at least they got
Wed, 10/21/2009 - 14:56 — AngelaWhey, WOW, at least they got a survey done....@ LES or LRMS that wasn't an option!
But didn't you have hundreds
Wed, 10/21/2009 - 23:41 — changewcpssBut didn't you have hundreds and hundreds of Leesville parents and teachers picket a meeting with P Head and C Dulaney and they completely ignored your presentation and your wishes for the school? Guess you were greasing the wrong wheels or _issing in the wrong person's Cheerios.
You know, I was thinking how
Wed, 10/21/2009 - 15:00 — jenmanYou know, I was thinking how interesting it was that there was even a survey in the first place. Is it coincidence that Sherron is assigned to Carroll and a survey was done or was that partially a result of her being on the assignment committee?
now it is OK to talk about property value?
Wed, 10/21/2009 - 14:40 — snordoneThose of us who had to play the dysfunctional game of reassignment for years learned that it was taboo to mention property value when fighting a move (you will sound classist/racist to Growth Management and the BOE, they don't consider property value to be a worthy issue in comparison to education). Now it is OK to discuss property values because it suites their argument?
If they spent half as much time worrying about education as they do SES we'd have some awesome schools in this county.
We do have some awesome
Wed, 10/21/2009 - 18:27 — anxious2010We do have some awesome schools in this county.
yes we do
Wed, 10/21/2009 - 22:19 — louiselee44and we count our blessings that our daughter attends one of the best (anywhere if you ask me)
"If they spent half as much
Wed, 10/21/2009 - 16:02 — user12345"If they spent half as much time worrying about education as they do SES we'd have some awesome schools in this county. "
There are a lot of "awesome" schools in the county e.g. Green Hope (School of Excellence, Top 100 in US News, most AP test taken / most pass, highest graduation rate, most teachers with advanced degrees, etc.) ... the problem is there are not enough of them and you need to be wealthy to get in.
As a point of clarification,
Wed, 10/21/2009 - 18:44 — anxious2010As a point of clarification, I do not believe the AP data regarding Green Hope has been identified correctly from the 2008-2009 school year. Additionally, all the high schools with AP exams numbering above 1000 are in "wealthier" areas with low F&R. Just something to think about.
What other 'awesome' schools
Wed, 10/21/2009 - 16:12 — jenmanWhat other 'awesome' schools are there in the county? And what do you consider to be 'wealthy'?
For schools, I likeEnloe
Wed, 10/21/2009 - 18:48 — user12345For schools, I like
Enloe (29/824)
Wakefield (26/361)
Green Hope (22/483)
Broughton (19/405)
Enloe offers 29 AP course and had 824 kids take the AP exams. The average Wake HS offers only around 18 AP courses. Middle Creek and Garner only offers 14.
The kids I know who attend Enloe have always been top notch and I like Broughton's history and soon to be discontinued IB program.
=============================
Wealth is relative since someone can make a high salary and be heavily in debt. Personally, I consider "wealthy" as not having to have both parents work to afford the house.
or ....
Wake Median household income: $61,554
Assume $60,000 times 3 gives you about $180,000 mortage plus $20,000 down payment gives you $200,000 average house.
Green Hope's zip 27519 with a average price of $270,000 is $70,000 over the median.
Holly Springs is only $216k so much closer.
Garner is only $160,000
I think the median income in Cary is $90,000 times three gets you to the $270k house mark so I would have to say may $90k mark.
Problems with your numbers
Thu, 10/22/2009 - 10:15 — Bob_SconceSo, first of all, Wake County median income is $76,900
(https://www.efanniemae.com/sf/refmaterials/hudmedinc/hudincomeresults.jsp?STATE=NC&choice=county&CITY=wake&FormsButton1=Search
). Median home price in Wake County is
Secondly, you can't directly compare Cary to the rest of the
county like that -- you have to control for things like # of families
who are retired (probably lower in Cary than the rest of the county),
how long they've been married, etc.... If you look at Cary/Green
Hope, I think you'll find a bunch of people in their 40's and 50's who
are on their second or third home and are more established in their
careers. Their kids are probably older.
Wake County Economy
Thu, 10/22/2009 - 10:58 — user12345Wake County Economy Statistics
2007 Median household income: $61,554
ARGH...
Thu, 10/22/2009 - 11:22 — Bob_SconceBasically, by using household income and not family income, you're saying that you could take Green Hope's base population area, stick in an apartment complex full of recent college grads, and the area would somehow be poorer in a way that mattered to the schools.
Using family income is marginally better, but still includes couples with no kids and retired couples living off savings.
As a counter-example, consider Broughton's assignment area. Broughton students are generally fairly well-off, even though the household income in Broughton's area is relatively low. The reason is that Broughton's assignment area includes NC State, and all the student housing around it.
point taken
Thu, 10/22/2009 - 11:38 — user12345point taken
I understand .... lots of
Thu, 10/22/2009 - 10:36 — user12345I understand .... lots of variables ... but the question is how can we get Green Hope like performance which costs $270k for admission to Garner where they can only afford $160k. Hopefully, we remember that Wake is much bigger than Cary with many kids who are entering the workforce or college and will be competing on the world stage and we can not rely on GH alone to carry the load for Wake. That is why every HS needs to be a school of excellence with a full offering of AP courses, language, experienced teachers, etc.
Missing my point....
Thu, 10/22/2009 - 11:06 — Bob_SconceYou're missing my point and destroying the numbers even further. Green Hope doesn't cost $270K for admission, and Garner doesn't cost $160K. If you were to look at the median familiy incomes of students who actually go to those two schools, they would be a lot closer to each other than those two numbers. Besides, at minimum, you can rent an apartment in either area for a lot less than that.
Every school in Wake County should be a school of excellence. Unfortunately, past board policies have destroyed schools that used to be schools of excellence.
$90K is "wealthy?"
Wed, 10/21/2009 - 18:48 — woodstock$90K is "wealthy?"
It's the median for Cary ...
Wed, 10/21/2009 - 20:43 — user12345It's the median for Cary ... $60k is the median for the rest of the county ... both numbers are higher than the surrounding counties and the state. Again, wealth can be measured many wants (e.g. net worth) but we are talking more about what kind of income a person would need to buy the standard 3B/2B home in GH's district. And yes I know someone with a lower income could cram their familiy in to a a studio condo for less.
So, in your view, being
Thu, 10/22/2009 - 10:22 — woodstockSo, in your view, being "wealthy" means being able to afford a basic 3B/2B home?
II said being wealth means
Thu, 10/22/2009 - 10:41 — user12345II said being wealth means being able to spend maximum time with your family, not having to have both parents work, and not being a slave to debt which can be accomplished with a range of incomes. If someone wanted a number, I said above $90k would put a family in the upper quartile and allow them to afford admission to GHS.
Are you attempting to
Thu, 10/22/2009 - 11:37 — woodstockAre you attempting to suggest that should a neighborhood model be used, 100% of families going to GHS will have family incomes over $90K?
Expectations
Thu, 10/22/2009 - 00:27 — SDR256What kind of crummy expectations do you have for America's future? $90K as rich? Yeah, sure there are many grades of middlin' and poor below that, - sure. But RICH? I don't think so. You should be more specific with your adjectives.
Able to afford the time to focus on their kids education - sure. That's $90K. That's just a the point where you can breath and think about your family's future and not just what's on their plate. That's just middlin. Rich means you don't have to worry about getting the bathroom cleaned yourself. Or, that you can have a second home, or some such fun stuff.
$90K still means you're worried about your kids future and how you're going to pay for college. Rich means you don't have to worry about lots of stuff middlin' folks still do.
Good point ... but the
Thu, 10/22/2009 - 08:02 — user12345Good point ... but the Goodnight "rich" (outlier) are not filling Green Hope ... it is more the $90k-$120k upper quartile "rich" ... so, the bulk of the families attending public school in Wake range from $30k to $90k with $60k being the median with Cary's 10% of the county being much higher. Also, remember if you make $90k and live like everyone else in teh county on $60k, you save $30k/yr (forget taxes for a minute) which can easily fund a college bill. If you become a slave to a $400k house that is another story with both parents working and constantly managing cash flow. Finally, while you mention rich as not having to clean your own bathroom which I appreciate, I think rich is being able to spend all your possible time with you family.
Forget taxes?
Thu, 10/22/2009 - 13:10 — TrailerParkGirlROTFL - below is federal income tax consideration. As for property taxes the person in the $300K house is paying 3x the property taxes of the person in the $100K house, but gets the same level of public goods.
Remember some time back people mentioned students should take economics - you might want to read up on the subject. Also, might want to think about these things when you get on your bash the rich kicks.
The top-earning 25 percent of taxpayers (AGI over $66,532) earned 68.7 percent of the nation's
income, but they paid more than four out of every five dollars collected by the federal income tax
(86.6 percent). The top 1 percent of taxpayers (AGI over $410,096) earned approximately 22.8
percent of the nation's income (as defined by AGI), yet paid 40.4 percent of all federal income
taxes. That means the top 1 percent of tax returns paid more in federal individual income taxes than
the bottom 95 percent of tax returns.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/ff183.pdf
wow ... you guys miss the
Thu, 10/22/2009 - 14:19 — user12345wow ... you guys miss the big points concerning the level of income to be at GH and zero in on taxes (I was too lazy to calculate the net between $60k and $90k (who would know anyway given the $90k person could have a business and end up paying less than the $60k person. ))
Also, you are only considering income tax. I think if you also included payroll, Social Security (capped for rich), Medicare taxes and adjust for the lower rate of tax on capital gains you will see a change.
Poor people make most of their money from salary, which is taxed at a higher rate than rich people who make their money off lower taxed Dividends/ Capital Gains.
Take the example of a multi-millionaire family where neither parent is employed nor does anything to generate significant income. Combined with an enormous mortgage deduction, they might pay no federal income tax.
"Take the example of a
Thu, 10/22/2009 - 15:50 — woodstock"Take
the example of a multi-millionaire family where neither parent is
employed nor does anything to generate significant income. Combined with an enormous mortgage deduction, they might pay no federal income tax."
What a childish notion of wealth. Do you actually envision people not working and paying no income taxes?
Like I said
Thu, 10/22/2009 - 15:35 — TrailerParkGirlyou may want to educate yourself. I'd let you borrow my old Econ and Tax class books. People zero in on taxes because you seem to have no appreciation for just how much the tax system is used to redistribute wealth/income (and incent certain behaviors) or what the impacts are.
Cap Gains tax is part of income tax. It's explained in the link. Mortgage deductions are limited and deductions in general phase out as income rises. The income tax system is progressive. If your multi-millionaire not paying any theory was even remotely accurate, the top 1% would not pay more in taxes than the bottom 95%.
Payroll taxes are capped because 1) SS benefits are capped which is what those payroll taxes are supposed to be used for and 2) medicare benefit costs should be the same regardless of income level.
Argh. Get the facts straight
Thu, 10/22/2009 - 15:08 — Bob_SconceOk....
(1) Having a business doesn't mean that you pay less in taxes. That doesn't even make sense -- businesses are easy to start; why wouldn't everybody do it?
(2) SS and Medicare ARE payroll taxes
(3) SS is supposed to be a retirement savings vehicle to provide some safety for folks in their old age -- the more you put in, the more you get out. If you uncap how much people pay in, then you also uncap how much they get out.
(4) Dividends and short-term capital gains are taxed at the same rate as salary. Long-term capital gains are taxed at a lower amount to encourage investment and risk-taking.
(5) A multi-millionaire family must have earned income at some point and presumably paid tax on it when they did.
(6) There's a $1M cap on deductibility of mortgage interest, so there's a limit to the deduction you get from an "enormous mortgage."
(7) Any multi-millionaire family with an enormous mortgage and no income will soon no longer be a multi-millionaire family.
You're buying into the "tax system is biased in favor of the rich" myth. If you look at the tax system honestly, it's just not true.
"Forget taxes", now isn't
Thu, 10/22/2009 - 08:50 — shearertw"Forget taxes", now isn't that convenient. $90K is about the point where your tax burden really begins to show up. Those deductions for student loan and other misc. items begin to dissappear. Those "rich" $90Kers are paying the bulk of the tax bill. They are paying a far greater proportion and amount than $60Kers who, with 2 or more kids pay next to nothing in taxes.
L'user, what is your problem with hard working people. Believe me, people making $90k/yr are not living off their daddy's trust fund. These are folks who worked hard to educate themselves and are continuing to work hard everyday to take care of their families. Why should they not reap some of those rewards?
"Why should they not reap
Thu, 10/22/2009 - 09:37 — user12345"Why should they not reap some of those rewards? "
Absolutely ... live with people you choose, buy a boat, go on great vacations, have someone else clean your bathroom but don't try to corner the market on public schools. Public schools are a state provided service, taught by state employees, using state books .... there should be nothing particularly unusual about one school building over another ....
Btw, the $90k cited for Cary is family income not individual income. The other 90% of Wake county lives on $60k (Median) per family.
I totally agree.
Wed, 10/21/2009 - 14:53 — jenmanI totally agree.
Who are the Student Assignment Committee Members?
Wed, 10/21/2009 - 13:03 — btwalshHere's the link: http://blogs.newsobserver.com/wakeed/advising-on-student-assignment.
Mr. Hui, do you know whether this committee list is still up-to-date? Several of these folks were heavily involved with 2009 (3 year) reassignment plan.
I haven't kept up to date
Wed, 10/21/2009 - 16:16 — KeungHui (author)I haven't kept up to date with the membership of the group since the three-year plan was adopted. Diana Bader is still the chair, as she noted when she spoke at the board meeting yesterday.
Clarification: Sherron served on Dulaney's Assignment Committee
Wed, 10/21/2009 - 11:13 — btwalshAnne Sherron?
"I serve on the Student Assignment Parent Advisory Committee, which gives insight and guidance to the Growth Management Team, who in turn develops the next Student Assignment Plan..."
Note to public: this is Dulaney's committee, not the Boards, also referred to in past N&O articles as the 'secret society.' No sunshine laws apply. Check K.Hui's 11/10/2008 blog "Advising on Student Assignment."
Note to incoming Board: Take control of this situation. Create a Board sanctioned Student Assignment Parent Advisory Committee, nominate parent representatives from every district, make sure sunshine laws apply, and most importantly -- eliminate Dulaney's Student Assignment committee
Other Dulaney Committee members include: Diana Bader, Alison Donnelly, Anne Sherron, David Williams, George Wait, Julie Stevens, Larry Dickens, Liz Parry and Roxie Cash.
Names sound familiar - perhaps a few (Bader & Cash) from the Magnet scare letter distributed 1 day prior to the elections?
Ms. Bader spoke at the board
Wed, 10/21/2009 - 11:23 — Eric_BMs. Bader spoke at the board meeting yesterday in what I can only characterize as a hysterical rant about the end of the diversity policy. She went on for almost another minute over her allocated time, raising her voice to drown out Kevin Hill's request for her to stop.
Seriously, that woman is a
Wed, 10/21/2009 - 14:10 — jenmanSeriously, that woman is a piece of work. I know people who are for, against & neutral about the current policies that all have no use for her.
This is just such a classy
Fri, 01/08/2010 - 00:56 — carson79This is just such a classy personal attack post....I hope she sees you in person and asks you what your problem with her is and to say it to her face if you have something to say about her! really the blog is not the place for this politics of personal destruction.
I just had to come back and read and say this.
Local sports-car enthusiast worries about BoE election impact
Wed, 10/21/2009 - 10:38 — Dadof3Just think of the headlines we can write when we strip away any ethical veneer traditionally associated with journalism:
"Local sports-car enthusiast worries about BoE election impact on road rage;" Del Burns, a local sports-car enthusiast opined at a recent Cardinal Club gathering the other day
"Local unitarian concerned about the impact of BoE Elections and his congregation's property status" Chuck Delaney, a local unitarian, opined recently...
You get the idea; apparently so does the staff at the N&O.
I'd bet even former Chicago
Wed, 10/21/2009 - 18:39 — woodstockI'd bet even former Chicago resident, Barak Obama, would find those kind of references misleading.
I'm guessing my property
Wed, 10/21/2009 - 09:15 — shearertwI'm guessing my property values may rise (here in SW Wake). If that does happen due to changes in school policies, and SE Raleigh property values fall, all that means is that SE Raleigh property values were artificially elevated at MY EXPENSE.
WOW really???? going back
Fri, 01/08/2010 - 00:58 — carson79WOW really???? going back and reading these is HILARIOUS! I cant believe you would post this.
Nauseating really.
And let's not forget...
Wed, 10/21/2009 - 09:03 — midtownmomwhat mandatory year round may have done for surrounding neighborhoods. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
Just a coincidence?
Wed, 10/21/2009 - 08:17 — J8307200Is it truly just a coincidence that every day since the eleciton the N&O has run an article "raising" concerns over the election results. Words like, "opposed to diversity", "resegregation","becoming like Charlotte" have been used in articles on almost a daily basis. However, the N&O has yet to really truly get the word out (except in small print on the side of the article written by Keung the other day) that an election is still taking place in District 2! This is a total conspiracy by the N&O and all the ITB elitists who are afraid as hell that they are going to have neighborhood schools. What happens then? They cannot continue to ship out their disadvantage kids to other parts of the county, bring in more advantaged children so they can continue to have incrdible magent schools as their base schools and enjoy totally inflated property values. Have some of you seen the costs of the houses in ITB that are at best "fixer uppers"? Total smokescreen in the guise of helping these "poor" children. BALONEY!! They no more care about truly helping these kids. Their worried about their property values becoming more like ours OTB...then where would there power be. Shame on you N&O for continuing this charade everday and not reporting the real news.
News
Wed, 10/21/2009 - 20:00 — SDR256To be fair, it has to be news in order to be reported on. I agree, the words used are selectively inflammatory to my view, but an article can only be written if there is actual news. And the fact that there is an election shouldn't be news.
BUT the fact that the N&O has glossed over (mumbled on a third page of an article much about something else) that the results of the SAS report mean that children have been passed over for higher level math is hypocritical and outrageous. Achieving children, AG children, children who have proven they can do the work have been passed over because this inside-out system has weighted them for income. Obscene. I want to know HOW MANY children have been passed up for higher math due to the medieval formulas of WCPSS when the better and FREE software from SAS was available?
THAT, my dears, is a scandal.
Oh Good Grief
Wed, 10/21/2009 - 15:23 — chaboardJust for entertainment value I will point out that your bizarre conspiracy theory is totally backwards. Pointing out the potential negatives of the new board policies BEFORE the election would've been the basis to hang a pro status quo conspiracy theory on. Waiting until AFTER the election to cover all this stuff would, on the other hand, be something to hang an anti status quo conspiracy theory on.
It's kind of nutty to believe either one, but one can at least be logical in one's nuttiness....
Have you been to any of
Wed, 10/21/2009 - 13:12 — lacyparentof3Have you been to any of these ITB schools and seen the "ITB elitists" volunteering at the schools, tutoring, and mentoring those disadvantaged kids? I have, and there are plenty of parents both ITB and OTB that do the same and truly care about these children. There are plenty of ITB families that are excited about the new school board members.
"There are plenty of ITB
Wed, 10/21/2009 - 13:48 — user12345"There are plenty of ITB families that are excited about the new school board members."
Good becasue we are about to unload a whole bunch on you ...