Based on some of the questions I've been getting, I thought it might be useful to lay out the timeline for the magnet programs at Broughton and Millbrook high schools.
Click here for the timeline. The reason they're giving it five years is because it's going to take time for Millbrook's staff to be trained and to get authorization from the International Baccalaureate Organization.
While the school board agreed to a five-year timeline, it could get changed. The big question is whether the board will commit to the cost.
Click here for projected costs for the next five years for both schools. The annual spending would have to be approved as part of the budget.
It's estimated it will cost $2.1 million over the next five years to start the IB program at Millbrook and $1.8 million to phase it out at Broughton.
Don't be shocked if some Broughton parents start arguing it's fiscally irresponsible to start a new program at Millbrook when the economy is so poor. They'd hope that nixing the program at Millbrook might delay or eliminate the phase out at Broughton.
Comments
yes, Shank--those are the
Tue, 12/16/2008 - 14:46 — jenmanyes, Shank--those are the schools I'm referring to.
Bob Sconce--If you do a search in the archives for Washington Terrace, Brentwood & Joyner you'll find several articles.
Why wont the BOE up the F&R
Tue, 12/16/2008 - 10:17 — jenmanWhy wont the BOE up the F&R population to 40% at Martin or Daniels? They do it to Garner why not these Raleigh schools?
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Because WCPSS needs those families to stay in the ITB Raleigh schools. WCPSS knows that many of those families have the financial means to go private or can apply to charters and will do so if the F&R gets too high.
In 2000, an ITB magnet was set to have a node of low income children bused in from a downtown housing project. The PTA leaders drafted a letter to the school's parents urging them to fight the reassignment claiming that property values would go down as a result of the new students. They claimed that it was not racially motivated but due to the higher needs of the low income kids--that they would bring the level of teaching down and the non F&R kids wouldn't be challenged.
(from an N&O story) "Wxxx said (magnet school) also is overcrowded, and the additional children will limit the number of magnet students who could come into the school and eventually could cost it magnet status, she said.
Her letter also pointed out that, unlike (school x), (magnet school) doesn't have a Title I Basic Skills reading program to help the new students. After adding programs this year for English as a Second Language and for behaviorally and emotionally handicapped students, (magnet school) does not need further strain on its resources, she said.
Wxxxx said that if the school's test scores drop, neighborhood parents would flee, re-creating the situation (magnet school) had before it became a magnet school. Currently, 81.9 percent of (magnet school) students are at or above grade level."
Many parents objected to the letter (thankfully) and it caused a large rift in the school. WCPSS did not back down (surprisingly) and the low income kids were moved there as planned. Many white families pulled their kids out of the school and went private. F&R went from a planned 31.1% to 33.8% and the school became underenrolled.
(from an N&O article)"Nancy Bxxxxxx has stayed on, but she noted disturbing patterns. A PTA board member, she said attendance at the meetings is down from last year, and her daughter isn't being challenged academically.
Bxxxxx will send her daughter to St. Timothy's School this fall."
The 'white flight' continued at the school and many neighborhood families didn't return. The school was already a magnet, but WCPSS beefed up the magnet program & later brought in an amazing principal to 'turn the school around' in an effort to bring back the base. It is now overcrowded and recently had trailers added to accommodate the population.
While I have respect for the families who stayed and were not swayed by the elitist rhetoric, I'm troubled by the 'reward' for staying in a school that had 'too many' minorities or poor people. (2000 was the first year that WCPSS used F&R instead of race and the PTA leaders' letter said that F&R was the politically correct way to say race now.) The arguments that the parents made are some of the very ones that parent all over the county make yet they aren't rewarded with extras to encourage them to stay. My own elem school is at 39% F&R this year which is not a big deal to me but we have steadily seen middle class families leave for magnets, private and charters. There are 23 schools with more than 50% F&R and only a few are already magnets. Nothing is being done to help them--nothing to encourage middle & upper class families to stay.
So why are we doing it for ITB middle & upper class families? Because having 'inner city' (I use the term loosely) schools that are healthy is essential to getting businesses to locate here and for our local economy to thrive. It doesn't matter at all what Garner's schools look like or Knightdale's because when people look at Wake County, they look at Raleigh. And if Raleigh's inner city schools look good then the rest of the schools must be great.
well since I wrote that
Tue, 12/16/2008 - 20:45 — vsheehanwell since I wrote that comment about Danials some one pointed out that M2M3 was going to lose some of its F&R base and that thoe kids would go to Danials. Lets see if that happens.
May seem off topic but I hope NC uses some of its new Fed transportation money to put in above ground subway system that goes to the suburbs. That way F&R could move around more because they would have transpertation. therefore creating lower population of F&R in Raliegh and more in Suburbs
Sounds like you are
Tue, 12/16/2008 - 14:34 — shank56Sounds like you are discussing Joyner Elementary. In this case, the kids being reassigned to Joyner were coming from Brentwood.
Link?
Tue, 12/16/2008 - 14:05 — Bob_SconceDo you happen to have a link for that article?
I don't think they ever will
Mon, 12/15/2008 - 14:50 — jenmanI don't think they ever will because it would siphon applicants from E Millbrook and Ligon.
I don't know how a 4x2 block
Mon, 12/15/2008 - 13:00 — jenmanI don't know how a 4x2 block (A/B schedule) could limit elective possibilities.
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I guess I was thinking about the certain courses that have to be paired together if a student wants to take them. I think I saw where there were certain ones paired on the A/B schedule. Depending on when they were scheduled I was thinking it might rule out certain electives. But I don't know for sure. Just speculating.
In other words, where is all
Mon, 12/15/2008 - 12:54 — jenmanIn other words, where is all this concern for the health of base schools when families flee them to go to charter schools?
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There is concern about W Millbrook MS because LOTS of families have left that school for Endeavor & Magellan. They are leaving in the elem years so they can bypass W Millbrook. Of course, the concern seems to be coming from the staff and parents at W Millbrook and WCPSS doesn't seem to do anything about it.
There is NO WAY WCPSS would allow Martin or Daniels to get to even 40% F&R, let alone the 46% that W Millbrook is sitting at right now. And they are even busing in low income nodes from downtown to W Millbrook. Why on earth would they continue to do that when the school is unhealthy?
Why wont the BOE up the F&R
Mon, 12/15/2008 - 19:48 — vsheehanWhy wont the BOE up the F&R population to 40% at Martin or Daniels? They do it to Garner why not these Raleigh schools?
Do you think the board will
Mon, 12/15/2008 - 14:51 — JSBinNCDo you think the board will consider making W Millbrook MS a magnet? (there might have been discussion about that somewhere already, I am not sure...) Does it fit?
**Note I do not know if I agree with that as a path to go down... - just wanted your perspective!
Edit - i think i might answer myself - probably not since East Millbrook is a magnet already... right? I forgot EMMS was magnet...
VSheehan
Mon, 12/15/2008 - 11:20 — JGSTo your point about relocating magnet neighborhoods back to base schools to help the base schools, this is not very different from base schools losing kids to charter schools. The only difference here is that the charter pull is much more available to elementary and middle school kids, than to high school kids. I have no desire to send my kids to charter, so I'm not trying to reignite the argument in favor of lifting the cap. I'm just saying, that the end result is the same. In other words, where is all this concern for the health of base schools when families flee them to go to charter schools?
Thats why they do not want
Mon, 12/15/2008 - 12:34 — vsheehanThats why they do not want to lift the cap. They can not control kids fleeing to charters so they close down the growth of charters. They want kids to stay at bases not go to magnets they close the magnet. Question is how will they stop people from running to Homeschooling when they shut all the other avenues. O fcourse they could fix the base schools issues but why do that.
Save the money.....
Mon, 12/15/2008 - 10:55 — WuptdoJust drop the whole idea and take the 1/2 million dollars savings and spread it around all the high schools to increase the AG programs. These are the kids that will build the bridges and cure cancer.
All this IB program does is make "education profiteers" even richer.
Redistribution I support
Mon, 12/15/2008 - 11:11 — ObserverNYAmen!
Total cost vs. Incremental Cost
Sun, 12/14/2008 - 09:55 — Mom_of_Two_TeensI think there is some confusion about what it will cost to transition the IB program from BHS to Millbrook. Mr. Hui is quoting what the program will cost over the next 5 years as it transitions from BHS to MHS. What is not being taken into account is what it would cost to just keep the program at BHS ($511,000 per year). To have a rationale and fair discussion on this, we should really be looking at the incremental cost increase for the transition.
Hrr..
Sun, 12/14/2008 - 17:26 — Bob_SconceBoth that $511K and the transition costs are enormous overestimates since they include teachers' salaries which are paid whether IB is there or not. It's like saying "I just switched from Verizon to AT&T" and claiming your entire Verizon bill as savings.
IB Teachers
Sun, 12/14/2008 - 17:54 — duvalIB Teachers are specialists who will not be there if the program is not. They will likely be given the choice to follow the program, or find a new job elsewhere.
Sad sorry situation for all.
No its not a sad sorry
Sun, 12/14/2008 - 21:08 — vsheehanNo its not a sad sorry situation for all. Millbrook that has the right population for it will get a magnet. BHS will lose a magnet they had no right to.
Well...
Mon, 12/15/2008 - 00:35 — Bob_SconceWelcome to the WCPSS game of divide and conquer in the magnet program. Why is the district treating the best academic programs as chess pieces to be moved from school to school instead of trying to expand the them to all schools?
Broughton's program took a while to get running and is now well-regarded. Why destroy that? Why not just add a program at Millbrook?
I have yet to hear of a silver bullet for public education. Nobody knows exactly how to create a great program; if they did, then every shool in the country would follow that model. Since we don't know how to create them, does it make any sense to destroy them when they happen to crop up?
It's not just Broughton -- the district is littered with schools that used to be excellent, until the district started tinkering with them. If, by luck, a great program manages to come up, the district should leave it alone and try to learn from it, not treat it as a resource to be doled out to the most needy kids.
Bob_Sconce
Mon, 12/15/2008 - 10:06 — ObserverNYIt's not just Broughton -- the district is littered with schools that
used to be excellent, until the district started tinkering with them.
My own small high school used to be considered among the more "excellent" schools in my county, until it brought in IB. Rather than urging expansion of this inferior fringe educational program throughout your county, I respectfully concur with vsheehan's conclusion that money would be more wisely spent strengthening those schools which are currently deficient in levels of student achievement through more traditional methods.
In the case of BHS the
Mon, 12/15/2008 - 08:46 — vsheehanIn the case of BHS the magnet should of never been placed there. WCPSS was willing to leave it alone till PTAS of higher F&R complained they lost their best students to the magnet. The PTAS felt the students they lost could be a postive influence on the kids at their schools if they stayed. The minute the BOE saw a way of getting rid of BHS with out pissing of ITB voters they did it.
Yes, WCPSS does screw up good schools OSB all in the name of diversity. Hopefuly what happened at GHE will cause the BOE to back off and see their plans are not going to work. The money would be better spent improving the resources at high F&R schools. Ya, like that is going to happen. The Mayor of Raliegh might lose some votes if he lets the disruptive kids stay in Raliegh schools instead of bussing them to the suburbs.
Gross misinformation
Sun, 12/14/2008 - 19:16 — ObserverNYIB teachers are your regular teachers who have been sent to 3 day training sessions. These 3 day sessions are held in locations all over the country, although I don't recall seeing any in Raleigh, NC, per se. Some of the locations include Jacksonville, New Mexico, San Diego, Toronto, Kansas, etc. The cost to a district averages $1500 per teacher, per 3 day session. This includes travel and room and board.
Do districts tend to send their "better" teachers to IB training? Debatable. Sometimes it is the newest, youngest teachers who are most willing to participate in this sort of training in order to secure their path to tenure.
Does 3 days worth of training really make anyone a "specialist"? Not in my opinion.
block scheduling
Sat, 12/13/2008 - 17:11 — charterschoolmomI don't know how a 4x2 block (A/B schedule) could limit elective possibilities. I never heard that is does. Maybe a Broughton parent or student can comment?
block scheduling
Sat, 12/13/2008 - 17:11 — charterschoolmomI don't know how a 4x2 block (A/B schedule) could limit elective possibilities. I never heard that is does. Maybe a Broughton parent or student can comment?
The 4 x 2 might be workable
Sat, 12/13/2008 - 13:56 — jenmanThe 4 x 2 might be workable but it appears to limit elective possibilities.
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I think that certain courses MUST be taken in the same semester if you are under the block schedule so yes, it does appear to limit electives.
Charter School Mom
Sat, 12/13/2008 - 10:19 — JGSThanks for explaining that. I knew BHS had block scheduling, but I wasn't getting the distinction b/t 4x4 and 4x2.
4x4 Block
Sat, 12/13/2008 - 10:14 — charterschoolmomAll WCPSS HS's, except for Enloe and Broughton, use a 4x4 block. This means a student takes four courses at a time and each course lasts one semester. Broughton uses a 4x2 block. Each class is held everyother day and courses last the whole year. Enloe and Raleigh Charter have a traditional schedule.
There are pros and cons to each schedule, but for most students, the 4x4 schedule is THE worst.
The main problems are:
*With sequenced courses, like math and foreign language, a whole year can go by between courses. For ex, a student can take Alegebra I in the fall of 9th grade and not be scheduled for Geometry until spring of 10th grade.
*AP courses either start or end in January, and the AP tests are in early May. For example, one of my kids will start AP Physics in late January and take the AP test a month before the course ends. The College Board is strongly against the 4x4 block. In most WCPSS HS's, relatively few AP students actually take the AP tests.
*There is a large loss of instructional time compared to a traditional schedule. Also, with the 4x4 block, students miss twice the class time for each sick day.
thank you charterschoolmom
Sat, 12/13/2008 - 11:08 — ObserverNYWhat an excellent, easy to understand explanation. The 4x4 concept is, well, stupid, I can think of no other word to describe it. Maybe I can, impractical, illogical, inconvenient, disruptive and lacking continuity. The 4 x 2 might be workable but it appears to limit elective possibilities.
Interesting
Sat, 12/13/2008 - 09:29 — ObserverNYI am honestly not really familiar with block scheduling, but I have seen IBO express a preference for it. In my district, we have a 9 period, 40 min. per class day on an A/B schedule to allow for science labs and PE. This is fairly typical for schools in my area. Could someone explain how block scheduling works?
found some info...have no experience with it yet....
Sat, 12/13/2008 - 20:34 — AngelaWThe block schedule is what most WCPSS high schools use. The students take 4 courses a semester rather than 6 or so a year. This allows them to take more classes than necessary to graduate, so failure doesn't necessarily mean a student won't graduate on time. Of course, this means that the student has to learn AP English, Geometry, etc. in a semester rather than a year.
more inequities in MS (with permission to share)
Sun, 12/14/2008 - 14:31 — AngelaWAt Lufkin Road Middle, students are also on a different kind of block schedule. For example, they have A, B and C days. A days (Monday and Wednesday) a student might have social studies for 90 minutes followed by language arts for 90 minutes, then lunch, P.E./health, elective 1 finally elective 2. B days (Tuesday and Thursday) would be math for 90 minutes, science for 90 minutes then the same schedule for the rest of the day as A day. C day (Friday) would be all four core classes for 45 minutes, then the same schedule for the rest of the day. Are any other middle schools in WCPSS doing this?
When you compare this to another middle school that does not offer block scheduling, you typically find that it allows one more elective during the day. At Salem Middle (correct me if I'm wrong any Salem Middle parents out there) they do not offer block schedule and therefore students have only one elective.
Thanks Angela I thought
Sun, 12/14/2008 - 08:52 — vsheehanThanks Angela
I thought Block scheduling was a good idea as it gave my son a chance to catch up in math . Our son was set to take Algebra in 7th but then we moved to Wake . He was not accepted into the gifted schools not because he did not need it but because of the lottery. His base did not have any way to teach him math at his level nor did they try to so he fell behind his peers in VA. I thought with Block he would be able to catch up and take more math then his peers in VA. Now I find out they may not offer the classes one after the other and he may have to take a ½ year between classes. The only advantage of block is the ability to take more classes in HS why would WCPSS not offer sequential classes is beyond me. Now I also see they have less instructional time. What is the use of block scheduling then? Why do it this way if it penalizes the kids?
vsheehan
Sun, 12/14/2008 - 09:39 — Voice_of_Reason_In fairness to WCPSS, if you go to a counselor (at least at my MS) you can get your child tested in 6th grade and get them into pre-Algebra (advanced 7th grade) math, they would then be eligible to take Algebra in 7th grade. My child did. But you have to ask and make your case.
BTW- From what I understand, a "gifted and talented" magnet school here means nothing; they go on the premise that all children are gifted or talented somehow.
or it can take an inordinate
Sun, 12/14/2008 - 14:32 — AngelaWor it can take an inordinate amount of time and lose a WHOLE year waiting for this to happen :(
Charter School Mom
Sat, 12/13/2008 - 08:54 — JGSI'm confused. You say many students apply to Enloe and Broughton because block scheduling is hard on students, but Broughton HAS block scheduling. This is not making sense to me. Also, why is block scheduling hard on students who take AP classes? It gives them more class time for in-depth presentation of materials, more time for class discussion, and two days to do the homework for any given class. Please explain. Thanks.
Thanks for the link, Keung.
Fri, 12/12/2008 - 17:20 — jenmanThanks for the link, Keung. The 'priorities' are the criteria that come before the selections rounds, right? Maybe the other one is siblings, but who knows. I'll be curious to see what the new criteria for selection are.
Yep, priorities come before
Fri, 12/12/2008 - 17:31 — KeungHui (author)Yep, priorities come before the round starts. The other priority is likely siblings but it would basically mean a parent having a younger child who was either not an elementary magnet studetn or at least not in right elementary magnet pathway. Staff is supposed to discuss the new criteria with the board sometime soon.
charterschoolmom--I agree
Fri, 12/12/2008 - 17:19 — jenmancharterschoolmom--I agree about the IB program. I'd rather see Wake look at other magnet ideas, especially considering how expensive it is to start and maintain an IB.
I'm 4 years away from having a High Schooler, but I already worry about that dang block schedule. It just can't be good for courses that need to be taken in sequence without 'forgetting' breaks like Foreign Language, Math or Science.
Block scheduling
Fri, 12/12/2008 - 17:39 — ApexParentofTwoMuch less is able to be covered appropriately in block.
A loss of around 15 hours or so instructional time throughout the course rather than the traditional 50 minutes.
Millbrook needs a magnet program; doesn't have to be IB
Fri, 12/12/2008 - 12:52 — charterschoolmomThe IB Program is expensive and the actual IB Diploma program appeals to too few students. For those students headed into science and technology majors, like my kids, it's an especially poor fit. I can think of other cheaper and more appealing magnet ideas, like expanding on MHS's already excellent Padaia program or even better and easier, just get rid of that darn 4x4 block scheduling. Many students apply to Enloe, Broughton and Raleigh Charter just because the 4x4 block is so hard on students, particulary those who plan to take AP courses.
Question for you, Keung: The
Fri, 12/12/2008 - 12:00 — jenmanQuestion for you, Keung:
The timeline says, "Applications accepted February 2009 for priority 1 and 2 applicants". Which candidates are Priority 1 and 2? I can't find my list of magnet priority round criteria for middle and high school right now. I'm guessing that one of the two priorities would be if a student is coming from an IB middle school.
What about the rest of the applicants from the other 2 rounds and the 'last 10%' round? Are they only admitting kids from the 1st 2 priority rounds?
Click here for last year's
Fri, 12/12/2008 - 17:16 — KeungHui (author)Click here for last year's criteria. I don't think they've finished the new ones for next year. One of the two priorities would be IB magnet middle students. I'm not sure about the other one. There was talk on Wednesday about cutting back on the number of magnet students accepted into Broughton in 2009-10 in prep for the transition, although Daniels and East Millbrook magnet kids would get in at least.
something doesn't make sense
Fri, 12/12/2008 - 11:42 — ObserverNYWhy would the Annual cost of the IB programs (MYP and DP) go UP in a school that is phasing it out? Why would IB training of teachers in Broughton continue past this year?
http://www.newsobserver.com/content/media/2008/12/11/IBcost.pdf