We could be a month away from knowing whether the U.S. Department of Education and the U.S. Department of Justice will investigate the federal civil rights complaint that the NAACP filed last Friday against the Wake County school system.
Officials from both federal agencies say they're currently reviewing the complaint to see whether they'll investigate. They say they should know whether they'll proceed within a month.
If the feds do come, you could see a repeat of what happened in Wayne County when the state NAACP filed a complaint against them as well. You had the feds holding public hearings in the community to get feedback for their investigation.
Thousands of Title VI complaints are filed annually with the federal government. But as Wendy Parker, a Wake Forest University School of Law professor and expert on civil rights law, said in Sunday's article, the national attention Wake has gotten over the school diversity fight means an investigation is likely.
"This investigation is not something they're going to put on the back burner," Parker said.
If you're interested, N.C. Policy Watch has posted the attachments to the Title VI complaint on its Progressive Pulse blog. Click here for that post.
Comments
I feel that the other side
Sat, 10/02/2010 - 08:36 — Andrew95I feel that the other side of the argument (the one that doesn't agree with me) often sidesteps the point I'm trying to make. I'd like to see if anyone will admit that the board has absolutely no plans whatsoever to make sure that schools do not become separated by any demographic. And to argue that (on average) a school full of kids from a poor neighborhood will do just as well as a school in the suburbs is both a deflection and extremely ignorant.
Schools, demographics and labels
Sun, 10/03/2010 - 19:38 — SDR256I have a problem with your request. You are asking about schools. The problem that the former board and philosophy ran into was so much concentration on schools that they lost sight of the kids. (woods for the trees, etc). Families weathered the storms of reassignment because as a 'community' we drank the koolaid - that healthy schools meant healthy kids. Not so. Not in any direction. All kids paid the price. If there were any exceptions it was the children of families lucky enough to have won the magnet lottery. (oh! whew! thank goodness MY family was not touched. Thank goodness MY education was not touched. Your family perhaps? Are all the rest of us a bunch of racist whiners? I think you should dig a little deeper if you want a real answer) Here's a compelling factoid: The base kids at magnets performed worse than almost any other demographic. Are they bad kids in a good school? Why has no one noticed or cared until now? Just throw away lives? Disposable? Didn't know how to handle the environment? All their fault? Why was the previous board so complacent about this fact? The public didn't know until some started to question the previous solution. Why do you think that is?
This board will need to be held accountable, no doubt. I also believe (and hope to be proven right) that they will put in place those accountability checks themselves. The really hard core underlying problem is that we are moving from a headline friendly solution - "no bad schools in raleigh!" :D !!! to one that is only starting to address the problem - look at the kids. Are children performing? Its painful. Its like facing surgery. The answer is that the long road that the previous philosophy took Wake County on did not result in the carrot that they dangled for everyone - success for the challenged children.
We're not comparing apples and oranges. These two solutions are from completely different philosophies and might as well be from different planets. Question is - do you care about schools (developers do. mayors and other politicians do. business organizations do. quick fixes for schools make friendly headlines - presto!) or, do you take the hard, unpopular route and care about children? Think about it real hard. Because you don't get much Title 1 money for trying to focus on children.
The community schools model
Sat, 10/02/2010 - 13:04 — woodstockThe community schools model is designed to educate every student in every school regardless of the student’s race or family income. That is an enormous step forward from the decade-long (actually several decades-long) failed social experiment we endured that gave us declining graduation rates among our most vulnerable students and a high-level of parental discontent. Additionally, even though the status quo BoE embraced forced busing and could dictate where every kid went to school, the number of high-poverty schools went from 16 in 2001 to over 60 today in 2010. How do you justify any of that?
I am also getting tired of the barrage of insults coming from your side and directed at low income families and the students in them, they reek of elitism and assumed superiority. Just because someone is lower income does not mean they lack character, don’t value education or can’t learn. They share the same hopes, dreams and capabilities as anyone else. With the right motivation and resources they can and will achieve. (BTW, a long bus ride is not a resource; it is a waste of resources.)
You're still missing the
Sat, 10/02/2010 - 13:22 — Andrew95You're still missing the point. Concentrations of poor perform poorly. The PTA disappears, the funding falls down a pit, and violence and crime leave little room for education. I was told a little while ago from someone on your side of the argument to ignore the correlations between high poverty and low achievement. Yet, form the same side comes the correlation between declining graduation rates and the diversity policy. Until proper research is done, one does not cause the other. Growth in the area has resulted in multiple reassignments, and, yes, we could definitely afford to improve graduation rates among all students. But there is no research (see above article) that says the community assignment model is meant to improve academic achievement among ANY group. I know that it's impossible for you to see, but that model has been used throughout the 20th century to keep people within their own demographic.
To recap: You have no proven evidence that says the diversity policy was a total failure. The high level of discontent you talk about is really a fringe (you love that word) minority that was bolstered by right-wing funders who knew that complacency among the general population would make for an easy election.
You can riff on the diversity policy all you want; The new policy will not make things any better. (At least, not for most. Supporters of the board will get a nice kick into their favorite school.)
You have no evidence
Sat, 10/02/2010 - 13:53 — woodstockYou have no evidence whatsoever the forced-busing/diversity policy benefitted anyone. Studies were asked for -- begged for even -- by the public to prove its value only to fall on the deaf ears of the status quo school board. Rose Gill even had the gall to say "we know it works, we don't need a study." During the ten years of the "diversity policy, grad rates and test scores for ED and many minority students steadily fell and the number of high-poverty schools increased dramatically. Please tell me how you find any success in that.
You could not be more wrong about the level of discontent and where it came from. Thousands upon thousands of parents and taxpaying voters of all political persuasions and walks of life came together to vote in not 1, 2 or 3, but 4 new like-minded BoE members who vowed to overturn the insanity of a forced-busing, at-risk model of education.
You are right I can and will continue to "riff" in the offensive and failed "diversity" policy and fight for a community schools model that will address the needs of students and treat them as individuals with inherent abilites to achieve academically and in life.
Community schools are used almost universally across the nation. It is even promoted by Arne Duncan, Obama's pick to head up the U.S. Department of Education. Community schools are Wake County's future and it will lead to greater acadmic success for all students.
Ten years down the line, one
Sat, 10/02/2010 - 19:46 — Andrew95Ten years down the line, one of us will be right. The only difference is, my peers are the ones getting the short end of the stick if the community schools ship goes titanic.
Oh for crying out loud
Sat, 10/02/2010 - 23:14 — woodstockOh for crying out loud ....are you so freaking blind and brain washed that you don't see that thousands of ED and minority students the got the short end of the stick year after year under the reign of the status quo. Wake up!
Your peers....
Sat, 10/02/2010 - 20:36 — Bob_SconceAnd my children.
But, consider that it could easily be that, due to last year's election, we are no longer on the Titanic.
How? You will be
Sat, 10/02/2010 - 20:12 — loriacHow? You will be grandfathered into your current school. The BOE has said they will not change the magnet schools. The biggest effect will be to allow parents of ES kids to have a real choice in schools (not a base school and an 'odious' choice), and to be able to stay in their community. It will take a long time for this ship to turn. Besides, only 5% of kids were bused for diversity (according to the old BOE), so why all the dire predictions?
I'm not a magnet student at
Sat, 10/02/2010 - 20:56 — Andrew95I'm not a magnet student at Broughton, if that's what you're suggesting.
I'm probably going to stop arguing with people in this setting unless they make another offhand remark about my protester peers. It's a pointless back and forth between people who are never going to give any ground. I'm never going to be convinced, and neither is anyone else on here. A good analogy would be "preaching to the other church's choir". Regardless of who's got more research, it's all a great wasted effort on the part of both sides. I'd like to thank those who encourage civil discussion on the issue, despite our disagreements, particularly Bob. All I can say is that I hope everyone on here realizes the futility of the internet as a medium for discussion, but hey, I'm no one to judge how you spend your time.
So... it's simple... just stop arguing then
Mon, 10/04/2010 - 14:58 — SupportNeighbor...I read this post religiously, yet don't often post. In general, I have found it's a waste of time trying to convince anyone on this site that they're wrong - I've realized what a passionate, tireless group of people come to this site. Lots of folks - and most of them have in common the fact that they believe they're fighting for a better education for the children of Wake county. Thank goodness we can all agree on something.
I come to this site to stay current, and to learn. I've been in Wake County for 2 years now, and if it weren't for this site, I never would have realized what a convoluted, backwards mess this school system was. If I had believed all the crap the media has fed us about what an "award winning school district" we have, and how Wake has one of the post progressive assignment plans in the country, and how the ED children are so much better off because of the diversity policy, I never would have learned what was really going on underneath it all. I never would have realized how all those pro-diversity folks who throw around words like selfish, pro-segragationist, and racist like it's nothing, were actually some of the most racist, self-interested folks I've ever had the unfortunate luck to hear from. I never would have realized that those who fight to keep the old system in place are more concerned about money, greed, and power than about doing what's right to educate ALL children of Wake County. You see it over and over and over again - in that they NEVER really address the real issues like EOGs, EOCs, Grad Rates, Algebra placement rates, etc. Never, never, never. It's just so much easier to call the new board supporters evil, selfish, racist, etc - than to have a real conversation.
Sadly, it took me months and months of picking through this site to understand all of what's going on beneath the surface. If it hadn't been for folks like Bob, Curmudgeon, Woodstock, g88, shearer, voice, TPG... and yes, even User (I'm sure I'm forgetting some), I'd be just as clueless as many of the other folks in Wake County are on this issue. Thanks to all of you. I hope you never give up on this issue or this board. You've been a tremendous resource for the folks who read this board, and I am personally extremely grateful. As a mother of a 3 and 5 year old, I appreciate all you've done... my children, thank goodness, still have many years to benefit from all your good work. THANK YOU.
There is a lot to learn from this site, but
Mon, 10/04/2010 - 15:22 — Athey01it's also easy to be mislead. Do you really think most, not all, of the regular pollster are really concerned about graduation rates of ED children? It's only a convenient talking point. My primary concern, and most of the other pollster, is their children. If it helps others, great; if not, it's unfortunate, but the welfare of my children is my #1 priority.
Also, I would not group Bob and TPG, with the others.
And which of the regular
Mon, 10/04/2010 - 16:11 — CaryCurmudgeonAnd which of the regular posters do you believe are not concerned about ED graduation rates? You said "most" so it shouldn't be hard to come up with names.
Lots of folks - and most of
Mon, 10/04/2010 - 15:12 — user12345Lots of folks - and most of them have in common the fact that they believe they're fighting for a better education for the children of Wake county. Thank goodness we can all agree on something.
I wish I had chanced upon
Mon, 10/04/2010 - 15:10 — red_balloonI wish I had chanced upon this blog earlier and completely avoided being ensnared in the "nationally recognized award winning" system.
same here
Mon, 10/04/2010 - 16:02 — loriacI also found this blog after the infamous 3 year assignment plan came out 2 years ago. This blog has been extremely helpful in understanding what goes on in Wake Schools. (and I have met some great people because of it - who, after meeting them, I am convinced are fighting for all Wake County children. Userxxxx is just plain wrong on that one.)
Interestingly, I was just talking to a vice principal the other day who was explaining that because of the current magnet rules, they couldn't offer a certain course even though the best teacher in Wake County for that course is at the school. Without the background provided by this blog, that bit of edu-speak would have gone right over my head. Yes, I will be sending a note to my rep with my thoughts on magnet schools and the current magnet guidelines.
I was just talking to a vice
Mon, 10/04/2010 - 17:22 — user12345I was just talking to a vice principal the other day who was explaining that because of the current magnet rules, they couldn't offer a certain course even though the best teacher in Wake County for that course is at the school.
1) Makes you wonder why they have a magnet program and left the best teachers back at the affluent base school
2) Why doesn't your team change that 5-4 at the next meeting. You have the power.
Actually, it makes me wonder
Mon, 10/04/2010 - 20:30 — loriacActually, it makes me wonder why WCPSS sacrifices the rest of its schools to make the magnets look good. I need to look this up, but Enloe is outscored by the other high schools on the AP tests, yet all the PR coming out of WCPSS points to Enloe as the flagship school. What does that do to the college chances of the rest? The more I learn about magnets, the less there is to like.
So - I'm going to submit a complaint to the Feds for unfair treatment of suburban kids in Wake County schools. But first, I'll hold a press conference. Maybe I'll report this to AdvancEd too. (end sarcasm, I wish this was a joke)
I'll send my rep a note, maybe speak at a future meeting. If they know enough people see through the magnet sham, maybe they will take action.
I need to look this up, but
Mon, 10/04/2010 - 21:09 — user12345I need to look this up, but Enloe is outscored by the other high schools on the AP tests, yet all the PR coming out of WCPSS points to Enloe as the flagship school. What does that do to the college chances of the rest?
Not sure about your Enloe obsession ... as I said before the only difference one mother with kids in both Enloe and Leesville said was the higher expectations and more homework at Enloe vs. Leesville. You could start a movement at Leesville for higher expectations and surpass Enloe with no cost or policy change. You just need to except more of your kids.
You can see difference by the fact that such a high % of Enloe kids take AP courses (almost 40%) and 81% go on to take the test. Only 17% of the Leesville students take AP courses and of them only 64% even bother to take the test.
% of Total Taking AP
% of AP Taking AP Test
Enloe
39%
81%
Green Hope
32%
76%
Broughton
28%
65%
Panther Creek
23%
66%
HollySprings
21%
62%
Wakefield
21%
65%
Wake All
20%
67%
Athens Drive
19%
70%
WFR
19%
58%
Cary
19%
66%
Leesville
17%
64%
Apex
17%
69%
Middle Creek
17%
59%
Sanderson
15%
60%
SE Raleigh
14%
65%
Millbrook
12%
66%
Fuquay-Varina
11%
70%
Garner
9%
34%
Knightdale
6%
48%
Outscored
Mon, 10/04/2010 - 21:52 — Solon77I could not find individual scores for each school. However, statistically it would not surprise me that students at other schools could score higher as Enloe has broader base of students that take AP classes and exams. If one were to make a discrimination argument, it would be against the schools that have a selectively low participation rate - catering to the few. Please note that Enloe students took 2,018 AP exams or 21% of the total exams taken by the county ! This is a disgrace - 21% of the exams in one school ! I do agree with JT that there is a culture of low expectations, however it is not with minority, ed or at risk students, it is with the affluent suburban students.
Question - who pays for all
Mon, 10/04/2010 - 22:39 — loriacQuestion - who pays for all those exams? I know of plenty of kids who decide not to take the tests because of the cost and they think they won't do well enough to justify it. Lots of folks out of work, you know - all across suburbia. Wonder how much that plays into the number of kids taking the exams.
I've seen you post the
Mon, 10/04/2010 - 21:28 — loriacI've seen you post the numbers of kids who took the test before, but this doesn't show how well the kids do on the tests. Also - I believe the teachers at other high schools do have high expectations. The problem is the WCPSS PR that says Enloe is better, the courses are harder and there's more HW. This is the reason one of my friends made sure to get her kids on the track to get to Enloe, because Enloe has the most kids get accepted by UNC. (btw - she's also clear that they are at Enloe ONLY for the courses) BTW - I was told by someone else at Southeast not to worry - that after Sophomore year you 'never see the base students again', so it wasn't about the diversity for them either.
It's a vicious cycle. I've seen the work my son is doing - there's no low expectations. It's a PR problem, and it makes me mad that WCPSS doesn't tout all their HS equally. And, that WCPSS holds back the other high schools from offering certain electives. Why should kids from one school have a better chance of college acceptance than any others, when the main difference is the PR by the system.
Enloe obsession? Perhaps - but only after repeated displays by Enloe students at the BOE meetings. I will never forget the Enloe valedictorian talking about her pregnant locker-mate at the BOE meeting, as if this girl existed only to give her a life lesson. Absolutely sickening. I actually think I have a magnet school obsession - the more I learn, the worse it is.
It's a PR problem, and it
Mon, 10/04/2010 - 22:36 — user12345It's a PR problem, and it makes me mad that WCPSS doesn't tout all their HS equally.
That sounds communistic that everyone needs to be mentioned equally ... last I saw that was in first grade?... maybe it is better if they mention each when they do something special so it means somthing... Didn't I see the top math student in the country was from Sanderson and a kid from Middle Creek or Holly Spring scored a perfect score on their SAT. Also, I doubt PR has a lot of affect on which kids UNC chooses. I think if you can get more than the 17% kids compared to the country average of 20% taking AP courses it would start things rolling. Concentrate on what you have and how to improve it (inward focus) instead of being depressed on how well other "appear" to be doing / how much press they are getting and don't judge all 2600 students at Enloe by a couple that you see on TV.
Trying again - this goes
Mon, 10/04/2010 - 22:54 — loriacTrying again - this goes back to the previous BOE's 'healthy schools' mentality. Enloe is held up as a premier school in Wake County. Isn't it the students who really count?
However, I believe that students who are just as qualified and have equal grades are viewed to have a 'lesser education' if they graduate from one of the other area high schools. This needs to change. One - by not restricting courses at other high schools, and two by correcting a misconception that 5.0 at a Wake County high school is somehow not as good as a 5.0 at Enloe. WCPSS can certainly use some of their $5M PR budget to get this message across. HS principals can also help lead the charge.
I am guessing you are a very
Mon, 10/04/2010 - 23:40 — user12345I am guessing you are a very bitter person ... your should learn to celebrate when any school system has a success ...sort of like celebrating when you neighbor's kids do well and not dwelling on why your kids did not get that award .... the goal is to get every school across the line including Leesville. Again, before restricting classes at schools where the kids are hungry to learn and giving them to schools where the kids don't seem to care it is better to get Leesville students to just take the AP course they have in bigger numbers first before adding more to their plate. If you want Leesville praised at each board meeting than tell Debra so can start each meeting that way.... I still don't think that will sway UNC.
You are saying some kids
Tue, 10/05/2010 - 00:56 — loriacYou are saying some kids deserve better resources than others? Some kids won the lottery - great, I'm glad they are taking advantage. They'd be stupid not to. Why hold the rest back? That is the main premise of the magnets. Don't let the other schools compete lest they show up the premier Raleigh school, and the Raleigh COC won't have anything to crow about. I'm not talking about praising Leesville at BOE meetings, but then you knew that.
The goal is not to get every SCHOOL across the line, but to challenge and educate every student. Every student, not just the magnet students.
"You are saying some kids
Tue, 10/05/2010 - 07:48 — user12345"You are saying some kids deserve better resources than others? "
No, the important thing is
Tue, 10/05/2010 - 08:32 — loriacNo, the important thing is to stop holding the other schools back. Not everyone is able to go to Enloe. My beef is with the rule that says a school can't offer a course if it's a 'magnet' course - this needs to stop. The whole magnet program needs a re-look. Diversity for diversity's sake does not help the base students at the magnet schools, and puts artificial limits on other schools around the county.
"No, the important thing is
Tue, 10/05/2010 - 11:15 — user12345"No, the important thing is to stop holding the other schools back. Not everyone is able to go to Enloe. My beef is with the rule that says a school can't offer a course if it's a 'magnet' course - this needs to stop."
So change that 5-4 at the next meeting and allow every school to teach what ever courses they want. Stop worrying about it and just change it now.
'Concentrate on what you
Mon, 10/04/2010 - 22:48 — loriac'Concentrate on what you have and how to improve it'
Right - except when it's 'prohibited' by the current magnet rules. I agree that expectations should be raised across the board - this is leadership at the school level.
From wikipedia:
The school was promoted to full magnet status in 1982. The "magnet" designation means that Enloe offers many courses that other Wake County schools do not, and provides services to its students that are not available to them at their "base" schools. Until the mid-1990s, Enloe was the only magnet high school in the Wake system, leading to high concentration of academically talented students. The 1993 graduating class included 42 National Merit Semifinalists, a number that remains a state record.
So - smart kids gravitated to Enloe for the challenging courses. Meanwhile, WCPSS prohibits other schools from offering these same electives. Up until the new BOE removed the SES criteria, all Wake county kids didn't even have a fair shot at attending Enloe (though everyone was 'free to apply'). What are we accomplishing by limiting access to some classes to one school?
I would agree with you whole
Mon, 10/04/2010 - 23:38 — user12345I would agree with you whole heartedly if the Leesville students even took the AP courses they are offered. I don't see where offering more classes to the school where the kids don't even take the ones that are normally offered, right? Now if your kid is smart and stuck at Leesville where the kids don't care about AP courses and has maxed out the offering I understand your concern ... that is where we need a magnet school smart kids can go to when their base school kids don't care ... again, I think every school should have the same basic AP courses which Leesville has but adding more should be related to whether the base kids show any interest in the standard offering before adding more.
If I was trying to convince
Sat, 10/02/2010 - 23:42 — woodstockIf I was trying to convince someone and all I had was the weak argument you keep trying to sell, I'd give up too. I think you are making a wise decision. When you are in a hole, it is smart to stop digging.
Another thing you may want to consider is if you are not passionate enough about your position to persevere, then maybe you need to take a hard look at where you stand. For instance, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt and with all my heart that forced busing and the status quo's at-risk model of education is wrong, discriminatory and, quite frankly, offensive ... and nothing will keep me from fighting to eliminate it.
And you never answered the
Sat, 10/02/2010 - 21:28 — loriacAnd you never answered the question.
Bob Sconce has a good post below. If you can make a new point, it's worth posting. We're waiting.
Too bad...
Sat, 10/02/2010 - 21:22 — Bob_SconceIf I might make a suggestion...
There are lots of people who *read* this blog and do not post -- it has more readers than the ACC blog and may even be the most widely read blog in the Triangle. In March, after the elections, one of the opponents of the current board (unfortunately, I don't remember which) cited *this blog* as a significant reason that the current majority won. (Interestingly, shortly after this post, there were a lot more posters from your point of view...)
Here's where I'm going: regardless of whether you convince the person who you're arguing with here, if you make a good, well-thought out, coherent argument, you may convince some of those readers to your view. Think of yourself as the lawyer -- you're not trying to convince the other lawyer; you're trying to convince the jury, who is silent in the process.
I think there are more
Sun, 10/03/2010 - 10:09 — Andrew95I think there are more efficient ways of getting involved, and the attitude of many on here is completely ignorant (on BOTH sides) and just plain annoying to deal with. It's just a really mature "flame war". On the internet, that's a discussion in which those involved argue for the sake of argument. You can see by woodstock's post below that he doesn't want to loose competition. If the blog were only commented by one side, it would be silent after a while.
I think there are more
Sun, 10/03/2010 - 10:31 — loriacI think there are more efficient ways of getting involved....
Would that be the 'anti-Margiota' buttons?
Still waiting...
I didn't make those. I don't
Sun, 10/03/2010 - 17:36 — Andrew95I didn't make those. I don't support those. I think it's immature and hotheaded, but it's far better than not being involved. I'm a journalist, not a political leader.
And another post with
Sun, 10/03/2010 - 10:13 — starsonoursAnd another post with "ignorant" in it!! What happened to "extremely ignorant"?
I am still waiting for the data that supports your statements?
It seems young Andrew has no
Sun, 10/03/2010 - 10:33 — woodstockIt seems young Andrew has no substantive argument to support his position, so he must resort to deflection and name calling -- the sad domain of those who have no evidence to back up their claims.
The side he desperately clings to brought us declining test scores and graduation rates among our most vulnerable student, outrageous discriminatory practices and a shocking increase in the number of high-poverty schools ...currently totaling 61! His political ideology -- or at least that of his parents -- is clouding his vision. He seems like an intelligent lad, however, so I am certain that once he starts thinking for himself, instead of letting others lead him, he will see the light and let reality rule over emotion.
It's my political ideology,
Sun, 10/03/2010 - 17:33 — Andrew95It's my political ideology, and I'm sorry you feel that way. If the light is your side of the argument, I will relish in the dark. You're frankly pretty immature, believing that your way is the only way of thinking, and that anyone else's idea must be clouded by emotion.
Don't bother argument baiting again, I'm not responding next time. I just thought I had the right to let others know that, at 15, I have my own ideals and an adult is the one too IGNORANT* to see it.
*(stars, it's silly to argue semantics, and takes away from your actual argument. Maybe I just like that word. Wood certainly enjoys "fringe" and "left wing" but that's just his word choice. I don't use it as my main point.)
"Relish the dark" all you
Sun, 10/03/2010 - 20:21 — woodstock"Relish the dark" all you want ...whatever that is supposed to mean. All I hear is more angst-ridden rhetoric. No substance. No facts. Nothing convicing to support your argument. All you do is point out what you don't appreciate about my approach. Your entire argument is to accuse others of being "immature" and "ignorant." That is becoming beyond tiresome and I am not sure what you hope to accomplish with that.
Here, I will make it very easy for you; name just one substantive thing that you feel forced busing made "far better" in Wake County. If you cannot anwer that very simple, straightforward question, have the guts and integrity to admit that maybe, just maybe, the other side has a point.
Andrew it is ignorant to try
Sun, 10/03/2010 - 17:54 — starsonoursAndrew it is ignorant to try to convince someone without providing evidence or data. Your statements are based in emotion, but you feel everyone should believe as you do and if they don't they are "extremely ignorant". I and others have asked to prove your statements, instead you give no reason and chastise anyone who doesn't agree with you as being ignorant. I and others have asked you to show proof, you have not provided any. Your actions prove your ignorance.
Irony
Sun, 10/03/2010 - 21:14 — fiveblindmiceCute...
Sun, 10/03/2010 - 21:30 — Bob_SconceConvince them of what? The accreditation body isn't some general overseer of the district hanging around to make sure that every decision of the board is backed up by a mountain of data and evidence. That's not what districts sign up for when they submit their schools for accreditation.
Here's an interesting point about stripping accreditation because of a change in the assignment policies: If, as your side claims, the change will create a dichotomy of very good schools and low-quality schools, THEN, at most, wouldn't AdvanceEd be limited to stripping accreditation ONLY from the low-quality schools? After all, under your side's logic, the very good schools aren't going to be hurt.
Good point, I hadn't thought
Mon, 10/04/2010 - 21:05 — CaryCurmudgeonGood point, I hadn't thought of that. Our schools are accredited individually. I don't see how AdvanceED could conjure up a case that Green Hope or Panther Creek are unworthy of accreditation when their test scores and graduation rates are among the best in the state.
The schools that get hit hardest would be the lower-performing ones, which do tend to have higher concentrations of minority and ED kids. So Barbour's crusade ends up disproportionately harming the same people he purports to represent.
Ok..
Sat, 10/02/2010 - 10:01 — Bob_SconceI'll take your points in reverse order:
(2) OF COURSE a school full of poor kids doesn't do as well as a school full of suburban kids. Poor kids perform statistically worse than affluent kids, regardless of where they go to school. Your argument is about like saying "If you put all the short kids in the same school, the average basketball skill at that school won't be as good as the kids at the school with all the tall kids." But, rearranging where the kids go to school won't make them any taller.
(1) That's not true. For example, the last I heard, the district was planning to continue to use magnet schools to attract suburban kids into poorer areas of the district. But, I think demographics is a red herrring, as you'll see below.
But, getting back to your underlying issue, which I think I can paraphrase as "Until now, the district has been trying to improve the performance of poor students by sending them to schools with more affluent students. The board is abandoning that policy, but not replacing it with anything."
Two comments here:
(A) that policy did not work -- poor students do poorly no matter where they are. Heck, in the last reassignment, the district moved poor students from a school where 43% of them passed their EOGs to a school where 22% passed -- if anything, that HURT those students. The performance of poor students at Creech Rd ES (~60% ED) is about the same as at Ballentine ES (~25% ED). Performance at Fox Rd ES (~60% ED) is better than at Wakefield ES (~20% ED). Poor students at Zebulon ES (~60% ED) are about TWICE as likely to pass their EOGs than at Wiley ES (~25% ED) [All looking at the '08-'09 EOG scores at ncreportcards.org.] The assignment-for-diversity policy FAILED the students it purported to help.
(B) poor students need to have specific attention focused on them. For example, there's significant reason to believe that they need more time in school -- that's a big reason why KIPP Academies are so successful (in fact, most schools that have success with poor students have some sort of instruction beyond the typical school day.) It's possible to arrange that sort of focus when those students are all in the same place; it's impossible when they are scattered to the four corners of the district.
56%
Sat, 10/02/2010 - 09:01 — starsonoursCan your side prove that after 30 years of busing the students being bused are doing better? (PS is "extremely ignorant" your favorite phase?)
I'll admit, it's a
Sat, 10/02/2010 - 13:25 — Andrew95I'll admit, it's a deflection. I don't have a cited essay on how the diversity policy helped every single poor child in wake county. But I know that, on the average, it made things far better than what they were.
And it will be so long as the other side continues to be "extremely ignorant". I can go pick up a thesaurus if you're really that concerned about it.
"But I know that, on the
Sat, 10/02/2010 - 13:55 — woodstock"But I know that, on the average, it made things far better than what they were."
Really? Please explain how it made "things far better."
Were the schools better for
Sat, 10/02/2010 - 17:41 — Andrew95Were the schools better for minorities in the 80's before the policy was enforced? To say they were is an outright lie.