You've got some unhappy families right now dealing with the loss of after-school activity buses that dropped off Wake County students to community centers near their homes.
As noted in today's article by Thomas Goldsmith, the school district cut the bus service in an attempt to save money. These 65 buses transported students who were on campus after classes for things such as tutoring, sports and band.
Beverley Clark, a former school board member who has been a vocal critic of the new board majority, said the move is ill-advised.
“In this economy we have many families where both parents have to work and cannot leave work to pick their children up from school,” Clark said. “Eliminating the after school activity buses impacts any family without a car or a flexible schedule. Most importantly, there is extensive research that shows the strong relationship between students engaged in extracurricular activities and student achievement.”
The loss of the after-school bus service would appear to be even harder on students at magnet schools who travel further to get to class.
Ridership on the buses varied from school to school and season to season, said Michael Evans, Wake's chief communications officer, who did not have hard numbers for overall ridership.
“Some had as few as five and some 20 or 30,” Evans said. “It became expensive to maintain that kind of service.”
School officials differentiated between the discontinued after-school activity buses and buses owned and funded by individual schools, which can still be used to take students to night sports events and the like.
The board has also put off buying any more of the activity buses, which cost about $80,000 each, during the next two budget years.
Comments
Interesting...
Fri, 08/27/2010 - 08:05 — Bob_SconceOur of all the carping on here, I haven't seen one person suggesting an area that should be cut instead with any sort of specificity.
even more interesting...
Fri, 08/27/2010 - 09:49 — FrabjousIs that they can cut services now, but not come up with a budget for the new assignment plan.
WRONG MOVE They Might Well Eliminate The Sports Teams Too
Fri, 08/27/2010 - 07:13 — RMC10How can kids practice from 3:00-5:00 everyday and get home after practice...Parents who get off at 5:00 and work in durham, CH, RTP or further cannot get to the schools by 5:00. And let me tell you employers I know in today's corp. world give you that "stink eye" look if you come or go 5-10 minutes early or late. Kids are not allowed to be on school property after 5:00, so unless they change that systemwide that kids can stay outside and wait for parents, if you get rid of all activity busses you might as well do away with sports programs. Also children who stay after for tutoring will suffer by not being able to attend that program.
And how about the teams - how are they going to get to those away games (will parents have to pick up and take). Maybe the regular busses/drivers could just make one more circuit run to the schools at 5:00 and run back through the neighborhoods or go to a central center for pickup.
And if I even see cabs picking up those ED athletes (for free) when my child has been left with no choice...
So 1) allow children to stay at schools until parents can pick up 2)do away with white activity busses, but run reg. busses one late pass to get after school kids home 3) or simply do away with activities after school - sports included.
Save money somewhere else - like all those exercise fitness centers they just put in schools for PE for kids who don't like team activities can get some exercise. How much must that have cost. Who the H is making these poor decisions? This part of WCPSS ran very good, good for kids, parents, sports participants, and schools. It wasn't broke - didn't need fixing, and it is an integral part of most major districts that are spread out over large counties such as this.
Coach's experience
Fri, 08/27/2010 - 07:42 — jeffrey1I have coached in middle school for the past 4 years. I have never seen an activity bus at our school. Furthermore, I have never had an issue with a child not having a ride home after practice. The first thing I do at the beginning of each season is supply parents with a map of where each member of the team lives, and invite them to form carpools. Like I said, never had a problem in 4 years.
this was part of the budget
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 18:19 — jenmanthis was part of the budget back in the spring. I did find some info on the activity buses. From http://www.wcpss.net/budget/2010-11-bpb/2010-11-board-qa--03-23-2010.pdf
Q17. Page 201 ASA Buses - Serious concern – How many schools and students will be affected? Do
some of these buses support after school tutorials? Kevin Hill
A17. After school activity runs (4th tier) will be eliminated at all middle and high schools, except for those
that are reimbursed from Title 1 funds.
Q18. Page 202 Exception – Pre-K - Estimate of how many students will be affected? Kevin Hill
A18. Pre-K student transportation will be funded by ARRA for the 2010/11 school year, so students will
not be impacted. However, there will be a "cliff", because ARRA funds will not be available for 2011/12.
Except For Schools With Title 1 Funding - Again With
Fri, 08/27/2010 - 15:11 — RMC10Again with these Federally Funded Programs in schools with low scoring populations on that NCLB test getting in my opinion an unequal disproportionate share of all educational resources. How about normalizing those resources across the whole population.
I do hope if the board is going to cut activity busses - it means all busses will be cut. Otherwise it's really almost reverse discriination - can we bus for that this time.
This step will hurt all children. I disagree with the Coached For 4 Years above (carpooling gets confusing, people don't honor their pick up days, people show up late, kids in your school can live half hours away from each other). We used the activity bus for tutoring last year, and it truly made a difference. Of course the ridership will change on a day by day, season by season basis (hello! sports seasons are limited, away games are not every week, practices may not be every day, tutoring day at school is only say Thursdays. Maybe the board could consider consolidating bus routes (improve ridership stats). Charge an Activity Bus Fee.
Except For Schools With Title 1 Funding - Again With
Fri, 08/27/2010 - 15:11 — RMC10Again with these Federally Funded Programs in schools with low scoring populations on that NCLB test getting in my opinion an unequal disproportionate share of all educational resources. How about normalizing those resources across the whole population.
I do hope if the board is going to cut activity busses - it means all busses will be cut. Otherwise it's really almost reverse discriination - can we bus for that this time.
This step will hurt all children. I disagree with the Coached For 4 Years above (carpooling gets confusing, people don't honor their pick up days, people show up late, kids in your school can live half hours away from each other). We used the activity bus for tutoring last year, and it truly made a difference. Of course the ridership will change on a day by day, season by season basis (hello! sports seasons are limited, away games are not every week, practices may not be every day, tutoring day at school is only say Thursdays. Maybe the board could consider consolidating bus routes (improve ridership stats). Charge an Activity Bus Fee.
How late was the tutoring?
Fri, 08/27/2010 - 15:27 — jenmanHow late was the tutoring? I posted somewhere else on this thread that some of our middle school teachers offered tutoring last year but it ended about an hour before the activity bus started. Parents were told to pick up their kids--they couldn't wait for the activity bus.
After School Tutoring
Fri, 08/27/2010 - 15:44 — RMC10Lasted till 5:00 - our school let out at 2:45. So tutoriing was like 3-5. My child would have failed math if not for the tutoring, and they got tutoring in all the core subjects at this session. I picked her up at Olive Chapel at 5:15. Olive Chapel was the central activity bus drop off location.
After School Tutoring
Fri, 08/27/2010 - 15:44 — RMC10Lasted till 5:00 - our school let out at 2:45. So tutoriing was like 3-5. My child would have failed math if not for the tutoring, and they got tutoring in all the core subjects at this session. I picked her up at Olive Chapel at 5:15. Olive Chapel was the central activity bus drop off location.
thanks. it sounds like it
Fri, 08/27/2010 - 16:26 — jenmanthanks. it sounds like it really varies school by school. Glad that the tutoring was available for your daughter. :-)
Either this benefits most
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 11:32 — actnowEither this benefits most kids or not. If yes, extend the school hours. If no, find yourself another limo for afterschool.
Neighborhood schools
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 09:25 — PACK_MIKE77Another reason neighborhood schools trump this busing issue. If kids could walk home or catch rides with other kids to school or practice this would not even be an issue. This problem only came up when WCPSS went to the convoluted reassignment plans that sent kids all over the place. MOSTLY the poor kids with the least availabile transportation options were the ones bused far from their neighborhoods. So they had to provide transportation. Parents of the poor were unable to get to PTA and other school functions.
So in "helping" the poor, the WCPSS was actually humiliating those students and their parents.
Neighborhood schools
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 21:10 — Solon77If kids could walk home
Proximity is not the only inhibitor to walking home. I live within 1 mile to two elementary schools and 1 middle school. We could not walk if we wanted to - lack of sidewalks and crosswalks. Nearest HS is 3 miles and is not walkable - so yes I am having to leave work early everyday to pick up my kids from MS and HS folowing their activities. There are a lot of areas in the county like this. So much for being family friendly.
A cynical person would think this is a first step to creating a barrier (unintentional of course) to the kids that are bused. We would like you to participate in sports, after school activities, get extra tutoring, ect. but due to the budget cuts we can no longer offer you a ride home. When the new assignment choices come out next spring - maybe it would be better if you choose to go to a closer school. It is your choice though.
neighborhood schools
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 20:48 — turnerk1I'm pretty sure there is no neighborhood in Wake County that has 2500 high school or 1000 middle school students to fill an entire MS or HS. My house is basically equidistant between three high schools and not one of them is less than 5 miles away. Which one is my neighborhood school? Besides, the BOE just voted to site a high school in a city with 200 high school students. Activity busses would be a great service for some students no matter how we assign students to schools.
Less Is More!
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 13:54 — KarinaMaciasWell said! PERIOD!
The problem is that the last generation or so has never seen neighborhood schools. (Since 1971) Neighborhood schools worked for over a century or so in Wake County and is still around most American school districts to this very day.
Do we even teach HISTORY any more? Sure we do.
Side bar: Most of the high school kids that go to school with my daughter usually know one or two classmates in each of the four classes she takes.
Why?
Teens are bussed from all over the place and in fact pass other schools to get to Knightdale High School.
Or, it could be because
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 13:58 — danofncOr, it could be because there are almost 2000 kids at KHS.
As schools get bigger, the odds have having classes with the same kids go down.
After school buses
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 10:54 — bluedaisyThe after school buses (the system calls it 4th tier) from my old high school drove kids 5, 6 miles and more to the drop off point, so that they could walk the rest of the way - as much as two more miles. By the way - that area is considered "neighborhood", as it is contiguous to the school, and this neighborhood is going to its closest high school. Look at a map, Pack, not every high school is down the street from everybody. We had more riders on the neighborhood buses than the satellite bus. This affects the "neighborhood kids" too. Its not just about the satellite node kids. A Neighborhood schools model would still be affected by this reduction in service.
ASD
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 07:36 — turnerk1What isn't mentioned in this report, is that (at least at my kids' MS and HS) they have also cut after school homework help for students and after school detention. The homework time was called ZAP and it was required of all students who had more than a certain number of zeros on homework because they had not turned in their work. The idea was that teachers were there to help them with the homework, provide tutoring, and address why they weren't turning in their work. The teachers told both my children the cuts were a direct result of no longer having activity busses to take students home afterwards. They couldn't require students to stay after school without providing a way home. So, at the same time the BOE made very needed changes to the suspension policy, schools are no longer able to use detention that doesn't require students to miss class. Their only alternative is now in-school suspension. And, they have cut an effective academic intervention program. On the one hand they are moving forward to change policies that clearly hurt vulnerable students, but on the other they are cutting programs that most benefit vulnerable students.
One of my son's teachers
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 08:10 — jenmanOne of my son's teachers sent home a note about a program similar to what you're talking about. It wasn't called ZAP but it was for any kid who hadn't turned in a homework assignment that week. On Thursday they are required to stay after school and the note said that all kids needed to be picked up at 3:30. No mention of an activity bus.
While I do agree it's unfortunate that the activity buses have been cancelled, I wonder where those bus stops are. Particularly for the magnet schools. Right now my son (magnet middle) has to be picked up at his express bus stop and I can't imagine that the activity bus stop would be any different. If I wasn't available to pick up the kids in the afternoon, our carpool group would be paying for transportation in the afternoon anyway.
Where do the activity buses generally stop? I wouldn't think that they would be 'neighborhood' buses but more like express buses making a few stops. Anybody have experience with the activity buses?
One stop per neighborhood
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 11:03 — bluedaisyImagine a bus driving thru a neighborhood, picking up kids at various corners. This neighborhood gets one stop on the 4th tier bus, vs the multiple stops. Then, the bus is off to another neighborhood, where one stop lets off the kids in that general area, and so on, and so on. Every bus route, regardless of whether it is satellite node, or from outside the walk zone but considered "neighborhood" by virtue of proximity can have a stop in their general area if needed to transport that student home, after whatever reason they were staying late after school. This affects every child - poor or not, neighborhood or not, extra curricular or not.
So anybody who asks for a
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 16:10 — jenmanSo anybody who asks for a stop is given a stop? (Of course I'm talking about kids who are in legitimate activites, meet all the requirements, etc) I'm wondering because with how large some of the base areas are, how are they managing this? Look at the map for Heritage High, for instance. There seem to be 4 separate areas that the kids are coming from. Would there really be 4 different activity buses for Heritage? If there's only 1 kid who is going to use the bus from the East Wake area does that kid get added onto one of the other buses or does he have a bus completely to himself? How far are these buses travelling? Depending on how spread out the kids are, the bus could be going all over the place.
I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand how extensive this service really is. My son stayed after school last year several times for activities (orchestra practice & community service hours) and never once was an activity bus mentioned. It was always just 'pick up your kid at 3:30'. Like I said elsewhere on this thread, he rides an express bus. Would the activity bus actually drop him off somewhere in my neighborhood or would it still just go to the express stop, where he'd need to be picked up? What about the magnet schools that are county wide like Centennial? Do they really offer an activity bus to every part of the county?
I imagine that it varies school to school. And I definitely think that the kids who are getting bused 15 miles with no choice should have a way to get home from activities. It was WCPSS who screwed them by assigning them so far away and I don't want to see them punished by not being able to participate in after school activities.
Not exactly
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 23:20 — bluedaisyMy high school had two buses - one went north, and one went south. They were full.
I have the same questions -
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 17:30 — loriacI have the same questions - I never heard of an activity bus. When my son stayed late, I had to go pick him up. If the bus didn't drop him in the neighborhood, he wouldn't be able to walk (the roads outside the neighborhood are not walkable). I've never seen an activity bus go thru the neighborhood.
Activity Bus
Fri, 08/27/2010 - 15:35 — RMC10Ours dropped off at a central location (Olive Chapel School) and I think a couple of other locations because it got there about 5:30, and still had kids on it.
In the high school where I
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 10:19 — HJ2ss2In the high school where I worked, the activity buses were used to transport the students who were bused in from South Raleigh.
One zero will take an a 100%
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 07:53 — zandeOne zero will take an a 100% down to a 50% or an "F." The use of zero as a score has caused many students to fail and is not an accurate reflection of student knowledge. It is also mathematically irrational. It is very sad that this after school homework help has been cut. Is this at all schools?
It can...
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 09:17 — Bob_SconceBut, your example is only true if that single zero counts for half of the class grade. In middle schools, single homework assignments are apparently not worth more than a few percent of your grade.
IMO, part of the problem is the 7-point scale, which seems extreme; I would think a 10 point scale is fair.
A ten point scale moves us a
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 09:30 — zandeA ten point scale moves us a little closer to a rational system with zero but there still would be a 6 times weight on a zero as a grade (rather than almost 7 times weight now.) And yes, homework is a smaller portion of the grade but once a kid gets one zero the "why bother doing any more homework" logic is not that irrational. lol
Yeah....
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 10:12 — Bob_SconceHow much latitude do WCPSS teachers have with their grading practices? Growing up, it was common for a teacher to toss the lowest grade. That would go a long way to solving the problem, too. You don't want to punish kids too heavily for a single missed homework assignment, but once they start missing a few, that's a real problem.
Teacher Latitude
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 17:29 — Solon77Teacher latitude is in the weighting of the work. Some weight homework high. In MS, at least certain Ligon teachers, a homework score carries alot of weight and when you get a 0 it hurts. As for the 10pt scale - could help some kids pass that don't today.
ZAP
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 08:36 — turnerk1I don't know if the ZAP program is wide spread or not.
That's how an average.
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 08:06 — bpuli9999is calculated. Also, looks like you have it backwards. It IS mathematically rational. You said so in the first sentence.
So what are you proposing as a measure of the student's "knowledge"? My kid knows everything - so he doesn't have to do homework anymore?
And why do you think it is called "home" work? Because the student is supposed to do it at home. If a student needs help with his homework, then the parents are supposed to help them out. And if they are not educated enough, pay someone who is to do it. That's how capitalism works.
I think he's saying it's not
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 09:14 — danofncI think he's saying it's not mathematically rational because of the long distance from "F" to zero.
A zero is a lot more punitive than the action that caused it. A kid can forget his homework, even if he did it, and get a zero that he could never recover from.
That's right Dan. It is not
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 09:32 — zandeThat's right Dan. It is not mathematically rational. Wake County Schools assigns grades according to what is essentially a five-point scale i.e., A through F. This five point scale is a rational system, as the increment between each letter grade is proportionate to the increment between each numerical grade -- one point. That scale is overlaid on top of a 100-point percentage scale and the grade is extrapolated from that function. In Wake County, each letter grade is assigned 8 percentage points (93-100 inclusive for an A), that is, until we get to the F letter grade. If an F is to subsume 70 percentage points (0-69) then it is given almost 10 times to weight that the other 4 letter grades are given. In order to be rational (that is have all the ratios the same) the “absolute zero” point on this scale must be 61. To compare apple to apples, assigning a zero on the percent scale would be the equivalent of assigning a letter grade of “P” in a mathematically rational system.
To use the real life example lets say that you get paid $100 per day to work. If you skip work one day you will not get paid so you would get zero dollars that day. However, if the employer followed the logic of assigning a zero as a grade, he would actually dock the employee about 4 days and require 4 days of perfect work just to make up for the one day that was missed. Otherwise, the employee would owe the employer about $400 for missing a day’s work. (It would take 4 perfect A’s just to get a C if a zero is averaged in.)
Your analogy is not correct.
Thu, 08/26/2010 - 23:54 — jeffrey1Your analogy is not correct. In your work example, the employee gets $500 per week to work. If he scores a perfect 100 on 4 days (i.e. works the entire day), and scores a 0 on one day (i.e. he skipped work that day), then he has scored 400 out of a possible 500, and has earned a "final grade" of 80. Therefore he is entitled to 80% of his weekly pay, or $400. Perfectly rational.
Furthermore, there is nothing that says that letter grades need to be equally allocated over the 100 point scale. The letter grades are generally allocated over the ability of the class. The top students in the class earn A's, the middle students earn 'C's, and so forth. Of course this doesn't mean that 20% of the class gets an A, and 20% of the class gets a B, etc. But if you look at the measurements of student success, you generally see a bell curve, and your grades are generally distributed along that bell curve.
In the education world, we have to distinguish between students who make an effort and do poor work, vs students who make no effort. What if you have a student that does the homework and scores a 65. That is failing in WCPSS. But the student did make an effort, and we must distinguish that effort from the student who did not attempt to do the homework. I don't think anyone would disagree that a the student who did not make an effort should receive a lower grade than the student who scored a 65. But why stop at 65? What about the student who tried and scored a 50? Or 40? 30? 20? That's why you score a 0 for not turning in your homework.
Of course there may be circumstances behind failing to turn in homework. And most rational teachers will give students an opportunity to make up work that is not turned in. But if a student fails to do the work, when given every reasonable opportunity to compkete it, then he deserves a 0.
Exactly. His final grade of
Fri, 08/27/2010 - 07:53 — zandeExactly. His final grade of 80% is a "C" when we transfer it to the A-F grading system. A "C" is half of an "A." (It is 2 GPA points while and "A" is 4 GPA points.) so the employee gets only half of his pay ($250) even though he missed only one day and worked 4 other perfect days. The problem occurs when you transfer the zero to the 4 point scale that is actually used to quantify the final grade. Using this system, the lowest percentage grade should actually be a 61. The math transfers to the 4 point GPA scale perfectly then.
In the rest of your description, maybe we should give a "D" for a poor performance. When you make an "F" contain 61 percentage points you just totally skew the distribution to a point where it is meaningless.
Again, your mistake is
Fri, 08/27/2010 - 08:19 — jeffrey1Again, your mistake is assuming that the grades of A-F should be equally distributed across the spectrum of achievement (from the worst possible achievement, i.e. doing absolutely nothing, to the best possible achievement, i.e. doing everything to perfection). That's just not the way things work in the world. Whether you are an educator or an employer, you have an absolute minimum level of achievement that is acceptable (i.e. passing). And the spectrum that is below that level is much larger than the spectrum that is above that level. So we have 4 possible grades for the relatively small spectrum we call passing (A-D), and one grade for the much larger spectrum that we call failing.
I would argue that an employee who misses an average of 1 day a week deserves an F and should be fired. When measuring attendance, you might give an A to someone who has 0 unexcused absences for an entire year. 1 unexcused absence would get you a B, 2 would get you a C, 3 would get you a D, and 4 or more (a huge spectrum) would get you an F and you would be fired.
It seems that you are
Fri, 08/27/2010 - 10:48 — zandeIt seems that you are agreeing with the use of a zero as a behavior modification method and that may be a viable arguement for keeping the zero. It may be a useful punishment (if that is what we want in education) but it is still not mathmatically correct. There has been a lot of literature regarding the ethics and usefulness of zero as a grade but there is no disagreement with the notion that it is mathematically irrational. Some teachers I know stopped using zeros because of the mathematical issue. Many more teachers are recognizing this problem. In fact, WCPS hired a consultant who presented this quite well.
Mathematically Irrational ?
Fri, 08/27/2010 - 12:32 — jeffrey1but there is no disagreement with the notion that it is mathematically irrational
I hope you are relying on more than the "The Case Against Zero," by Douglas B. Reeves, because his argument (strangely similar to yours), is the most irrational argument I have ever read, and I can disprove that argument just as easily as I can prove that the square root of 2 is an irrational number.
You be hard pressed to find a math teacher that agrees with that reasoning.
I had not read his article
Fri, 08/27/2010 - 12:54 — zandeI had not read his article until just now. I have no problem giving zeros as long as they are not then disproportionally mapped to what is understood to be a 4 point rational scale.
This is a very old debate in education but I cannot imagine any mathmatician that would endorse the idea that a rational scale can have unequal distances between points.... then it would simply no longer be a rational scale because it no longer has equal ratios. Really no need for fancy or fuzzy math here.
First of all the, rational
Fri, 08/27/2010 - 13:50 — jeffrey1First of all the, rational has to do with ratios, i.e. division. When you talk about unequal distances between points, you are looking at differences, i.e. subtraction. Certainly you would not argue that 100 is to 90, as 90 is to 80, as 80 is to 70, as 70 is to 60, because that is not rational, i.e. 100/90 <> 90/80 <> 80/70 <> 70/60. So a mathematician would argue that even the A, B, C, D grades are not rational.
Your argument fails to include the establishment of a minimum standard, something that is used not only in education, but in just about every facet of measuring. You don't think that when someone came up with a grading scale they started with 90% for an A, 80% for a B, 70% for a C, 60% for a D, and then decided to just stop there, do you?
What they likely did was set 60% as a minimum standard for competency. Anything less than 60% was failure. Then they likely decided that they needed to be able to distinguish among those that passed, which led to different letter grades at 60%, 70%, 80%, and 90%.
The degree of failing is not relevant to the outside world. They are not concerned with how badly you failed, only that you failed to meet the minimum standard. However, with respect to someone's attempt to turn a failing evaluation into a passing evaluation, there are different degrees of failing. Surely someone who scores a 59% on some measurement (homework, quiz, test, etc) should not have to do the same work to get his overall average into the passing zone, as someone who scored a 58%, or 50%, or 40%, etc. After all, the person who scored an 81% on some measurement has to do a lot better on subsequent measurements to get an A, than someone who scored an 89% on that measurement.
Now that leaves us with how to score an assignment that is not done. I don't believe that someone should be given a 0 because they did the wrong set of problems, or did not use a #2 pencil, etc. They should be given an opportunity to resubmit the work. But, there should be no disagreement that the ultimate form of failure is not even trying. If you simply do not do the assignment, that is much worse than someone who makes an attemt, but fails to meet the minimum standard. Now it may be that someone who receives a zero on some measurement has a long road ahead to move above the minimum standard, but that road cannot be any shorter than the person that does the assignment, but scores anywhere less than the minimum standard.
I think I understand what
Fri, 08/27/2010 - 14:59 — zandeI think I understand what you are saying about the changing ratios as the scores increase or decrease. But... what happens when you use those numbers to add together and then divide and apply back to a 4 part scale ranging from 1-4? I ask more rhetorically b/c I do not know for sure. I wonder if a better scale, if we are to include zeros, would be a grade ranging from A-J rather than A-F so that the ratios correspond betterto the intervals rather than being so (bottom?) loaded? In that case we have set a minimum standard (J) that better works with the original scale.
I understand the social and behavioral arguement for using zeros for not completing or doing the work. There are certainly different lines of thought about this matter and room for disagreement. I tend to think it does more damage to more kids than it helps. I have seen many students fail classes just b/c they did not complete all of the homework. It is very discouraging for these kids and I seldom see them get motivated to do better as a result. They usually just learn to hate school. Interesting discussion though.
I certainly understand your
Fri, 08/27/2010 - 18:39 — jeffrey1I certainly understand your logic for not wanting to count missing assignments as zero. I've never been a big fan of having homework count for such a big part of a grade that it can take a good student, and cause him to fail. I believe something on the order of homework being responsible for 10% of your grade is reasonable.
I also believe it is reasonable to assess things like homework, lab notebooks, class participation, etc as part of your final grade, but testing should count for the largest part of our overall grade.
I found an interesting article that you might be interested in. It describes 4 different methods of combining the scores of multiple assessments in order to arrive at a final grade. It was eye opening in that in several examples, the same set of assessment scores resulted in a final grade ranging from an A to an F, depending upon which method is used to combine the scores.
One of the methods includes the idea of mapping scores to a 0-4 point scale as you suggested.
The article is at:
http://aaamidatlanticsprs.peerx-press.org/ms_files/aaamidatlanticsprs/2010/01/05/00000480/00/480_0_art_file_1595_kvstzz.pdf
That article brings up a
Sat, 08/28/2010 - 12:30 — zandeThat article brings up a very good point regarding the arbitrary nature of grading. Here is another way to look at the zero problem. You will get two very different outcomes when you figure GPA depending at what step you convert the percentage score to the 4 point A-F scale in your calculation.
Lets say that a student has 3 homework assignments. He gets a 100% on one, a 75% on another and he is missing the last assignment so he has a zero. If we average the percentages first then convert to the 4 point scale he gets an F for the period. 100+75+0=175/3= 58 so the student gets an F.
On the other hand, lets convert the percentages to a grade first then lets average the grade. In this case the student gets an A(4) plus a C(2) plus an F(0). The total is 6/3=2 or a "C."
The latter is the mathematically correct method because all of the grades are on the same scale and one does not have undue weight over the other. It also makes sense intuitively because most people would probably think that an A and an F and a C would average out to a C if all have the same weight.
So...
Fri, 08/27/2010 - 11:39 — Bob_SconceWhatever the mathematical model is, the problem appears to be that not turning in a single homework assignment can negatively impact a student's grade far more than would seem warranted by the seriousness of missing the assignment. After all, the grade at the end of the course should roughly reflect the student's understanding of the material. If the student has mastered the material, but still gets a C or a D, then there's something broken with the way the grade is determined. Similarly, the grading scheme is broken if it forecloses a student's ability to get a good (or even passing) class grade well before the end of the course.
So, if a student does poorly on a homework (or even fails to turn it in), but then works to understand the material for a test and aces the test, the homework shouldn't count against him/her -- he has mastered the material, and the fact that he didn't do so immediately shouldn't count against him.
Lesson Missing
Fri, 08/27/2010 - 12:00 — Solon77The lesson that is missing is that it matters how one gets to the end result. To the star athlete who skips practice and just shows up for the games - should he start and play ? Doing homework teaches preparation - whether it be getting ready for a presentation in front of a board, participating in a play or musical event ...... If a kid can blow off home work and ace a test - then the kid is in the wrong class.
Hmm...
Fri, 08/27/2010 - 12:21 — Bob_SconceThat kid may be in the wrong class, but so what? Should he get a bad grade because of a placement decision?
The star athlete who never practices won't be the star athlete for long. Similarly, the student who blows off his homework will have a tough time mastering the material and will probably do poorly on the test.
Maybe I'm jaded -- I recall doing the odd problems instead of the even problems on a homework assignment and, as a result, got a 0, even though I did all the even problems right! In 5th grade, when doing long multiplication homework, I did the 3-4 hardest problems and left the rest blank. Maybe I should have been in a harder class, but it annoyed me that I was forced to do mere drudgery for no reason.
Just curious
Fri, 08/27/2010 - 20:20 — Solon77Maybe I'm jaded -- I recall doing the odd problems instead of the even problems on a homework assignment and, as a result, got a 0, even though I did all the even problems right! In 5th grade, when doing long multiplication homework, I did the 3-4 hardest problems and left the rest blank. Maybe I should have been in a harder class, but it annoyed me that I was forced to do mere drudgery for no reason.
So do your kids do their homework ? or do you simply ask them if they know it or not - if they say yes then you let them take the night off and to do something else ?
Sure...
Fri, 08/27/2010 - 21:28 — Bob_SconceAs for my kids, they generally do their homework, although my son is exactly how I was -- I agree that it's really dumb, but tell him that he still has to jump through the hoops.
In my case, I didn't ask anybody to take my word for it -- I proved I could do it. The annoying thing was getting in trouble because I didn't prove it exactly how they wanted me to prove it. I have a dozen similar stories -- some teachers reacted really well to my approach and gave me extra credit; others, well, not so much. (Another example: "Use each of your spelling words in a sentence" My answer: "Here are this week's spelling words: detrimental, devotion, disturb, dishonest, etc...." in a single sentence.)
So, that's why I'm asking -- I recognize that I'm passive-aggressive about this and would love to hear the other side of the story. (And I hope it's more than "people are going to be asking you to do dumb things the rest of your life, so better start practicing...")