The new middle school math placement guidelines will take a back seat at today's meeting of the Wake County school board economically disadvantaged student performance task force.
Only five minutes on today's agenda is scheduled for an update on the math placement stats presented at the last ED meeting. School board member John Tedesco, chairman of the task force, said administrators are still resolving whether the numbers accurately reflect minority enrollment this year in pre-algebra and Algebra I.
Far more time, 45 minutes, is set aside for discussion of a draft policy on equity and equality.
Also today, Chief Business Officer David Neter will discuss funding by school. Tedesco said he's asked Neter to bring the Fund 6 information for each school, which will show wide gaps in how much they individually have.
The task force will also review the three areas they'll focus on as a group.
The meeting runs from 4:30 to 6:30 p.m. at Phillips High School, 1923 Milburnie Road in Raleigh.

Comments
Keung - Will the task force
Thu, 12/02/2010 - 21:54 — red_balloonKeung - Will the task force be posting the Fund 6 information?
I don't know if they'll
Thu, 12/02/2010 - 23:22 — KeungHui (author)I don't know if they'll post it but I've got the handouts. I'll blog about them soon. I'm supposed to be taking Friday off but I'll have them up no later than Monday. It was an interesting discussion. As a preview, I'll mention that there was a lot of discussion about how Enloe had $649,000 in Fund 6 revenues last fiscal year, the most of any school in Wake.
Thank you.
Thu, 12/02/2010 - 23:38 — red_balloonThank you.
Fund 6
Fri, 12/03/2010 - 22:27 — Solon77Is this not part of the annual financial report ? Page 83
You are correct. I guess
Sat, 12/04/2010 - 08:57 — red_balloonYou are correct. I guess what I am looking for would be a break-up of operating and capital expenditure by school with drill down capability into whatever chart of accounts structure WCPSS uses. Basically a copy of WCPSS' financial database would be nice! :)
What are you trying to determine ?
Sat, 12/04/2010 - 10:15 — Solon77What is it that you are trying to determine ?
# of teachers are set by a formula based on enrollment.
Teacher pay is determined by the state according to the pay scale as are benefits.
Principal has latitude in the course offerings - to fund Spanish or direct the resources elsewhere ?
Facilities maintenance - run into old schools vs new schools. New schools would have little in the earlier years but require capital up front. Older schools would require more maintenance. I know there is outrage over spending $22m something on Smith, $X to add and East wing to Enloe and relocate the gym. When they get around to building Rolesville at $70m, I will be curious to see if these same people go through the $70m and say we don't need that amenity, nor that amenity. But then again, one person's amenity is another's necessity.
Costs of electives - I would be really interested to see if it really does cost more. There are only so many classes in a day. I do know at Ligon and Enloe there are many teachers that pull double/triple duty. So instead of teaching 4 classes of X, they teach 1X, 2Y and 1Z.
I understand the purpose in the beginning when trying to create demand for magnets but once demand exceeded supply, changes should have been made. Over the course of time our demographics will continue to change - neighborhoods will mature and there will not be enough kids to fill the school. At the same time other areas will continue to grow and will need capacity - in an effort to save/delay construction costs do we entice people to go to under enrolled schools. Many other districts use this approach - adding and taking away electives and programs from schools in order to balance enrollment by choice. It seems the main issue with wcpss is that there was not a regular formal review process.
Put it down to curiosity. I
Sat, 12/04/2010 - 11:50 — red_balloonPut it down to curiosity.
I am curious to see how funds are being allocated by school and expenditure type. It is possible that availability of such data will persuade people that funding inequities do not exist in WCPSS.
Similarly, it would be nice to see EVAAS and EI data assessing the effectiveness of policy 6200. I keep hearing of "mountains of research" but surely we should be having relevant data from closer home.
EVAAS assessing effectiveness
Sat, 12/04/2010 - 13:23 — Solon77EVAAS assessing the effectiveness of policy 6200 - I am not sure I follow. I would like to see the placement of AA,Hispanics and ED by school and to understand why largely white affluent schools such as Apex, Wakefield, Heritage, Fuquay have such a low placement, while schools (Ligon, Carroll, and West Millbrook - just to name a few) with a much higher level of ED, AA ..ect have a significantly higher participation rate. I would like to hear from the Apex staff why their school has one of the lowest participation rates in Algebra I. Is it on purpose ? - give kids an easy target to keep the overall EOG test scores in the 90% range so they look good.
Mountains of research and data - The concern is over the pockets of high poverty areas in the county. The zone plan neatly isolated these areas and we know for a fact that high poverty schools do not have high achievement rates, even when provided with additional funding. Funding this county is not willing to put forward. There are some high poverty schools that excel, but it is the exception. It would be like saying all of our schools should perform as well as Raleigh Charter. So we can follow the lead of CMS, create pockets of high poverty schools - let them flounder for a few years (we won't have the $ to pour into them) and then close them down for poor achievement and bus the kids to the burbs.
I would like to see more analysis, data gathering and information in general to better understand why ED in a school with 40% ED performs better than ED in a school that is only 10% ED. If we really want to tackle the achievement issue - this needs to be done.
Put another way, I would
Sat, 12/04/2010 - 18:31 — red_balloonPut another way, I would like to review WCPSS' data that shows busing has been effective (or not). I find it hard to believe that a billion dollar school system doesn't have metrics in place to measure the effectiveness of a decades old strategy.
So....
Sun, 12/05/2010 - 09:34 — chaboardEffective
Sun, 12/05/2010 - 12:25 — klanders65Take a look at what E&R puts out for its evaluation reports. They don't measure effectiveness any way that would make sense to most of us. They have a study on what is effective for at-risk students. They selected a handful of what they call "at risk" students. They don't look at their actual success, but rather at their Effectiveness Index residuals. They themselves say that individual student residuals are not reliable and should not be used. But they use them. They find a handful of "at risk" students who had positive residuals. This does not mean they are successful at school or not successful. It means they did better than predicted by EI. And EI would predict that students who are at grade level would score below grade level. So, they may have positive residuals and be going from above to below grade. These handful of students were examined to see how they could have positive residuals. They concluded the students must be resilient.
Take another and read it. They all make no sense. This study makes no sense. And it gives no useful information about effective practices.
How would the board get this department to do a useful study? The board members are not qualified to design educational research studies. They could request one but do you really think E&R is capable of doing one?
The board has requested a report that would tell how many students meet the EVAAS criteria for top middle school math placement. They requested this about 6 months ago. They requested this so they would have time to correct placement errors before school started. In July, Ken Branch reported that he would have to pull every child's file individually to see if they met the requirements and where they were placed. I seriously doubt if this is true, but if it were true, and thousands of pulling those files would have resulted in thousands of low income and minority students who meet the criteria being properly placed, then why were those files not pulled and checked? And why is there no record-keeping system in place for recording a students' data that is used for placement criteria, and then recording the enrollment recommendation? Are they still recording on paper data that is irrelevant to the math placement criteria? Months after that, Ken Branch presents some overall numbers showing how many students meet the EVAAS criteria. He doesn't know how many students meet the other criteria. That is not recorded anywhere, even though they say all students who meet the criteria will be properly placed unless there is a compelling reason recorded. Teacher judgement cannot keep a kid out but all the compelling reasons are teacher judgement and none are recorded. Branch did not know how many of the students who are properly placed meet the EVAAS criteria or whether the thousands of kids who are not enrolled even though they meet the criteria are top scoring low income and minority kids, the lowest kids who meet the criteria, or certain schools not following the criteria. In an attempt to re-examine the data and answer these questions, E&R creates a report that has totally different numbers than Branch's report. They were supposed to be clarifying Branch's report. But they clarified numbers that looked nothing like the numbers Branch presented. And they seemed to not have even noticed that their numbers were totally different from Branch's.
E&R also combined the Algebra and Pre-Algebra numbers, to remove clarity. When asked to clarify what happened here, and get numbers that make sense, they still can't do it.
And somehow, they have lost the 6th grade placement. EVAAS provides predictions for 6th graders, but their placement criteria incorrectly says that EVAAS does not provide this. WCPSS tracks 6th grade. Kids in the top track are prepared for the rigor of Pre-algebra and that is the pre-algebra pool. But, they pretending like 6th grade is not a part of this placement problem. They just took it off the table. Kids who take standard math in 6th grade, then are placed in pre-algebra will be at a great disadvantage. They've confused the pre-algebra and algebra placement so much there seems to be no point in even asking why they are omitting the 6th grade information.
Given how E&R has handled something so simple as knowing who meets the qualifications compared to who is placed do you really think they could do a study of effectiveness that would make sense? All that is being asked for here is counts. What if the board were to ask for an effectiveness study to determine whether following this math placement criteria has been effective for the students who were not recommended by teachers but placed by EVAAS prediction, and whether the 70% cut is appropriate. They are light years away from being able to answer that. They have said they'll try to be able to report in January on what percent of the kids who meet their criteria are properly placed. They need another month and need SAS to help them.
How would any board get decent information on effectiveness from this E&R?
E&R's website does have a study on effectiveness of busing for the diversity policy. They say they selected a handful of schools where kids were bused for diversity. Examining the data, they found some kids were being bused from one high poverty school to another high poverty school, so including them would not be appropriate. (They didn't address why this would be. As always, when their studies find some outrageous thing they just treat it like no big deal and move on.) They threw other kids out of the study because they had selected to attend some other school. After they threw out everyone who didn't meet their criteria for the study, they had about 40 kids left or fewer and say this is too few kids to draw any conclusions about the effectiveness of the diversity policy. And then they were done with their job. They had finished their report. And it gets posted to their website and they move on to their next report.
This department is not capable of doing a meaningful study.
About a billion dollars a
Sun, 12/05/2010 - 17:40 — red_balloonAbout a billion dollars a year pursuing a strategy for decades and we don't have the capability to assess the effectiveness of the strategy. Only taxpayer funded entities can afford such recklessness. I wonder if there would be an adverse effect if E&R was disbanded.
Busing
Sat, 12/04/2010 - 19:11 — Solon77What benchmark would be used to evaluate effectiveness ?
Barwell and Hope Elementary - neighborhood/charter school predominately AA score 10 pt below the district average. Leadmine Elementary - 30% AA with scores 20 pts higher than district average, 42% ED scores 10 pts higher than district avg.
The neighborhood school proponents put their faith in "proximity" = engagement, ownership and therefore better achievement. There are no studies or data to suggest this is the case. In fact it is the contrary - 99% of the country is neighborhood school assignment and yet AA failure rates continue to climb.
The majority of the magnets students travel to get to school - if the bus ride is so harmful, why do these students continue to perform ? Would we say their performance would be better if they were closer to home ? The students who attend Raleigh Charter are from all over - would their scores be higher if the school was more proximate to their neighborhood ?
If you were running a business and plant A had twice the output of plant B - would you just move plant B down the road or would you do an in depth comparison between the two. I am amazed that this does not happen today with our schools.
The neighborhood school
Sun, 12/05/2010 - 11:54 — user12345The neighborhood school proponents put their faith in "proximity" = engagement, ownership and therefore better achievement.
Isn't that just nostalgia for a "simpler, peaceful time" when these folks were kids ... sort of a 1950' Mayberry? I think what you are missing it that these folks want proximity to a good school ... the idea that they can monopolize the resources and keep them in their neighborhood is the second unsaid part.
I am not aware of a widely
Sun, 12/05/2010 - 01:26 — red_balloonI am not aware of a widely accepted industry standard to measure effectiveness. Bill Gates apparently is spending millions to solve this problem. But, since policy 6200 has been in vogue for ages, surely there should be data, if not mountains of data, within WCPSS about the effectiveness of 'diversity', howsoever measured and presented.
You and I would be interested in comparing Plants A and B. WCPSS' though will constrain Plant A and gloss over Plant B's problems until Plant A's output has degraded. Along the way it will concoct measures of success that will win national accolades for quality and productivity.
Advantage of EVAAS
Sat, 12/04/2010 - 19:31 — lferreriOne of the big advantages of EVAAS that I can see is that it compares the students' progress to their starting points. A middle school, for example, might have a lot of sixth graders who are behind when they arrive at the school. The school could do a stellar job and the students could make more than a year's progress but, if many don't reach grade level, EVAAS would still recognize the good progress. On the other hand, a middle school with a lot of Level IV students could do a poor job and have many students make less than a year's progress but still pass the EOG. EVAAS would recognize that these students should have done better and accurately indicate the problem. I think that's a much better way to determine success than just looking at passing rates on the EOG.
I'm guessing that's what people who have seen EVAAS results find surprising. Schools with a good reputation may, in fact, have high passing rates because of the previous accomplishments of their students. And the converse could be true as well. Maybe some schools we view as unsuccessful are actually helping their students more than we can tell just from the EOGs.
Unfortunately
Sat, 12/04/2010 - 13:49 — lferreriGetting this kind of data from the WCPSS seems to be an effort in futility. Back in the late summer, the ED task force asked for data on the placement of qualified students into Pre-Algebra and Algebra broken down by demographics. In September, a report was given that showed total placement, not placement of the qualified students. The task force requested the data on placement of the qualified students by demographics. In October, there was a second report. Unfortunately, the number of qualified students on the second report did not match the number on the September report and data from two schools was missing, calling into question the new numbers. The task force then asked for this to be investigated and corrected. Now in December, it is my understanding (I couldn't get to the meeting) that the task force was told that they are still working on this. So it is going to take at least five months to get this information. I don't see how reforms can be made to the system when it takes this kind of effort to obtain fairly straightforward data.
Issues like why ED students in a 40% ED school might be outperforming ED students in a 10% ED school are going to me much harder to figure out because they are more complex. I agree with whoever said that EVAAS can help with this because it can determine if particular schools and teachers are effective. However, people who are in a position to act on this information have to be willing to do so. More to the point, though, they will have to be able to get access to the data.
It is kind of hard to
Sat, 12/04/2010 - 18:16 — klanders65It is kind of hard to believe, isn't it? I wondered why when Branch presented to the Student Achievement Task force last Feb to report that EVAAS would be used for middle school math placement in 2010-2011 that they didn't look at EVAAS right then and see how many kids would be in pre-algebra and algebra if they indeed actually used this new criteria. The data were available in EVAAS right then. The projections for next year are there right now. But they didn't. Then when they looked at EVAAS after school started they found they didn't have any where near the books they needed. Branch said at the Sept or Oct ED Task force meeting that they are so committed to getting the kids placed according to their criteria that they have now ordered the books but they were not in yet. It makes me wonder if they are just not very good thinkers. I can't tell if they really have no intention of following their criteria and they think that if they can confuse and convolute the data they'll have no accountability--or are they just incredibly incompetent. It is really hard to tell.
As for why ED kids in a 40% ED school do better than in a 10% ED school... Some things to look for would be whether ED kids in a 10% school are more likely to get pulled from core instruction for remedial services they do not need than in the 40% school, and whether they are less likely to receive enriched curriculum when there is differentiated instruction.
Dr Connelly said that the Title 1 dollars follow the kids. In a "school-wide Title 1" school, the Title 1 funds can be used for who ever needs help. So, they may be more likely to provide remedial instruction to students who are not already at grade level. Also, if these schools have any differentiated instruction, they may provide enriched learning to students with the highest scores. (I am just guessing. This could be checked.)
When the Title 1 dollars follow the kids into a 10% ED school, these dollars can only be used for the ED kids. (Someone correct me if I am wrong. Title 1 may have changed but I can't find anyone who knows.) If they hire a remedial teacher who pulls kids out of core instruction with these funds, then the ED kids will be pulled regardless of their achievement level or academic need. And guess what happens when you get no core instruction? You score lower!
I think these things could be checked. They could compare achievement level of kids getting remedial services by school.
I would bet that district wide, the majority of students who receive remedial services designed to bring them to grade level are level 3 and 4 ED students. According to E&R evaluation reports, this would be true. And according to E&R evaluation reports, this damages them academically. They usually do worse than control students when they receive the remedial services and their scores start heading for below grade. We know this is very wide spread. I bet this isn't happening evenly across schools and it accounts for the differences in average ED scores by school.
But, like the math placement situation, this would probably be hard to really check. Most E&R evaluation reports for the Title 1 and other remedial services begins by saying that they only have data on a small set of kids who got the services because almost no one kept good records of who got the services.
True
Sat, 12/04/2010 - 18:40 — lferreriI agree that this a lot of this would be hard to check, given our current E & R department. If they can't get simple placement data (which after all is just merging two data bases that are already in the system), I can't imagine how they could gather information on who received Title 1 services. My sister-in-law provides reading instruction at a Title 1 school She not only knows which kids she serves, she also knows exactly which skills the kids are working on. They move children into services when they discover that they are lacking a skill, monitor them to determine when they have mastered the skill, and then move them out when they have accomplished what is needed. She cannot understand why any school would operate differently. Funding is tight so it has to be used to help the children who need it. (They are a rural system with a small tax base.) I guess they must be using a school-wide approach since she can work with any child, ED or NED. Even if the schools with a low level of F & R can only use the resources for the ED students, it still doesn't make sense to pull out students who don't need help. (But then who says the system makes sense?)
I agree that their failure to plan ahead and have enough books for the students indicates that they were either not competent or not planning to comply with the change in placement criteria. I think people don't realize how early this information is available. I think it's correct to say that right now, with a few exceptions of students who may be on the margins, that we have a pretty good idea of how many students will qualify in 2011-2012. I wonder if they are getting ready now?
Does raise an question
Sat, 12/04/2010 - 15:35 — Solon77Does raise a question of competency or ethics, either way not good. But then again it takes months for committee meetings to be posted, when the AP course by school was spresented it contained many obvious errors. One would think with all eyes on the reports someone would have looked at it to make sure it was right. The thing is with Burns gone they are missing the opportunity to come clean. You can be sure that who ever comes in as superintendent, they will pull all of the skeleton's out of the closet - the good CEOs do this all of the time.
The new supdt may elect to
Sat, 12/04/2010 - 18:29 — red_balloonThe new supdt may elect to do some due diligence and level setting. It will be interesting to read about his/ her discoveries at WCPSS.
Yes this will be interesting
Sat, 12/04/2010 - 18:38 — user12345Yes this will be interesting ... someone is going jump on school A because they get more than their school B ... and like you said, the majority of the funding is by state formula to state employees at state salaries ... and I am guessing we will find that affluent schools have the long term higher paid teachers, old schools take more energy and maintenance .... schools with more kids cost more ... schools with more poor or special ed kids will cost more, schools where the PTA picks up the tab will be less .... etc.etc. .... also, many people will try to ignore the roll the PTA and booster clubs play / pay to make up for all the things the school system has walked away from ... like Lacy funding another teacher which won't be counted in the official tally.
I hope that someone can
Thu, 12/02/2010 - 13:48 — user12345I hope that someone can superimpose the PTA and Booster funding on top of the official funding. Many school and athletic functions are now shouldered by these groups.