The diversity policy isn't the only difference separating Wake County school board members.
As noted in today's article, the board is also split about how to view charter schools, private schools and home schools. Members of the new board majority are more willing to embrace these educational alternatives even as they say they want to bring more families back into the school system.
“Honestly, I would like to see the public schools get involved with the charter schools and develop a better working relationship because of the way that they tend to be theme schools,” said school board chairman Ron Margiotta. “If we want to talk about it’s being competition, I welcome the competition.”
Margiotta is also on the board of the Thales Academy in Aoex, which is owned by conservative busiessman Bob Luddy. Margiotta says he sees no conflict being on both boards.
But Margiotta's involvement with Thales has been criticized by opponents of the new board majority. School board member Anne McLaurin also says Margiotta’s role with Luddy’s school goes directly against the proper role of board chair: “the system’s biggest cheerleader and largest standard-bearer.”
“What you should believe is our public education is as good as any out there, and if it’s not, you are going to make it that way,” McLaurin said.
McLaurin is also skeptical of the board majority's support for lifting the charter school cap and their willingness to even consider tax credits for parents who send their children to private schools.
For instance, board majority member John Tedesco says he would support tax breaks to help families afford private schools if their needs are better served that way.
“I’m not afraid of open market competition,” Tedesco said. “If they feel that that meets their specific needs, I could see tax breaks to allow them to do that.
Tedesco's view is echoed by Luddy and Art Pope. Luddy says the traditional primacy of public schools will dwindle under a challenge from private schools.
Luddy and Pope say they haven't talked to the new board majority about charter schools, home schools, private school tax credits or private school voucners. But the fact that both men gave so heavily in last fall's campaign to help the new majority get elected is a red flag for their opponents.
“We are all very concerned about it, because it seems that there’s an agenda there – to dismantle the public school system and make it less attractive for middle- and upper-class families,” said Maria Mauriello, a co-founder of BiggerPicture4Wake.
Comments
Some state grants are not
Tue, 04/13/2010 - 13:07 — shearertwSome state grants are not based on merit or need... so your point is not relevant.
But...I would be OK with tax credits and/or vouchers being somewhat tied to income.
How do you know most people
Tue, 04/13/2010 - 10:24 — shearertwHow do you know most people support vouchers?
Vouchers generally benefit the poor and middle class more than tax credits as most of the poor and middle class do not pay enough taxes to get the benefit from a tax credit.
Anyone who makes enough money and doesn't support a tax credit for the reason you cite is fairly short-sited because tuition comes every year and getting a tax credit at the end of this year would help pay for next year's tuition. You also have to buy the stupid Prius before you get a tax credit so I don't get your point.
I'm referring to people who
Tue, 04/13/2010 - 10:02 — shearertwI'm referring to people who qualify for state grants (almost everyone) plus get various scholarships, etc.
Practically no in state student pays the full tuition to attend a state university. Someone who gets accepted into Duke, Yale, Harvard etc. will often be offered enough scholarship money to attend a state university for free but they may still choose to go to Duke, Yale or Harvard and pay $40K/year. That was my point.
Duke
Tue, 04/13/2010 - 11:28 — Dove314Duke has 7 types of merit-based scholarships per year. For 2013, these 7 types were awarded to ~70 students in total, ~17 in NC. Duke tends to award their scholarshipts to individuals who have already received other merit based awards, deducting the amount of those awards from the total that Duke pays. By awarding someone who has already won $100K in scholarships, Duke reduces the total amount they have to pay. They also choose to give merit-based scholarships to children of employees of Duke (who get free tuition if their family member has worked there long enough) so they only have to pay for one student rather than two. Their admissions officers will freely tell parents and students that they should plan to earn their scholarships outside of Duke or pay the full tuition amount due to the very few merit-based scholarships they provide compared to other schools of comparable reputation.
See the following website for more details:
www.aas.duke.edu/ousf/programs/
So...
Tue, 04/13/2010 - 12:40 — Bob_SconceThey also have a lot of need-based aid:
Duke will meet 100 percent of demonstrated financial need as determined
by University calculations
http://dukefinancialaid.duke.edu/undergraduate/index.html
Most of those scholarships
Tue, 04/13/2010 - 10:07 — danofncMost of those scholarships that people who attend Duke, Yale, Harvard, etc. get are given by the school to help with affordability, not by the government. You can't take a $5k scholarship given by Yale and then decide that you're going to Elizabeth City State.
I'm going to ignore the fact that Harvard and Yale aren't NC colleges and really shouldn't be in the conversation.
Berea is free too
Tue, 04/13/2010 - 11:41 — user12345At Berea, we provide students with a remarkable educational opportunity. We award a 4-year, tuition scholarship to every admitted student. This scholarship works in conjunction with any other grants or scholarships students receive to completely cover the cost of tuition.
...http://www.berea.edu/
Actually, most of the Ivy
Tue, 04/13/2010 - 10:35 — user12345Actually, most of the Ivy League schools are free to anyone making less than $75k/yr.
Dartmouth President James Wright announced today a number of enhancements to the College's financial aid packages for undergraduates, beginning in academic year 2008-09, to ensure that Dartmouth remains accessible to academically talented students regardless of their financial situation. No Tuition for Families Who Earn less than $75,000 Beginning with the 2008-09 academic year, all students from families with incomes of $75,000 or less will receive free tuition. In addition, many will also receive scholarships for associated costs of attendance, i.e. room, board, books and miscellaneous expenses.
Well tuition is free
Wed, 04/14/2010 - 12:18 — festusBut many of the Ivies (and Stanford) don't cover the full cost of college, even under their new "the-Senate-threatened-to-revoke-our-fat-tax-breaks-so-tuition-is-now-free-for-some" policies. Housing, books, many fees in expensive places like Palo Alto, Cambridge and Manhattan can add up to tens of thousands per year.
Sorry for quibbling. Your main point is sound.
OK....can you read? Let me
Tue, 04/13/2010 - 10:18 — shearertwOK....can you read?
Let me spell this out for you step by step.
Student is accepted into NC State University and is offered a full academic scholarship or combination of scholarships and grant money so they can attend NC State at no cost to them.
Same student is also accepted into Duke but does not qualify for a full academic scholarship because the bar is higher there.
Student decides to attend Duke anyway because they believe they will get a better education there.
Student STILL recieves state grant money to attend Duke but its not enough to make up the difference between attending NC State for free and attending Duke at $50K/year.
Can I make this any clearer for you?
A student accepted into any
Tue, 04/13/2010 - 10:40 — danofncA student accepted into any school that is offered a full academic scholarship is likely to have other scholarship offers as well.
Do you think a someone who wins a Morehead Scholarship at UNC doesn't have other options?
We aren't talking about those people. We're talking about Joe Q. Public, average kid accepted to college.
Student Incentive Grant: $700, need based
State Contractual Scholarship Fund: $1350, need based, private schools only
NC Legislative Tuition Grant: $1950, not need based, for NC residents attending private colleges. Why is this different than a public school voucher: because college is optional. If you choose to go, the state subsidizes your tuition at a state university. If you choose to go elsewhere, the state gives you part of the money. That is significantly different than allowing you to opt out of a provided service to go private.
The NC LTG was the only thing I saw on CFNC.org that wasn't need-based.
Are you suggesting that school vouchers should be need-based?
Scholarships
Tue, 04/13/2010 - 10:22 — Dove314Can you point me towards these scholarships?
I'm reviewing cfnc.org and fastweb related scholarships but am wondering what I'm missing as most kids I know in state universities are paying tuition, room, board, books and more -- no "free" ride due to amassing scholarships. Now would be a great time for me to find those scholarships you mention.
Holly Cow is this getting
Tue, 04/13/2010 - 10:30 — shearertwHolly Cow is this getting frustrating.
The people who get accepted into places like Duke, etc. know what scholarships I'm talking about. The people who only get accepted into NC State will not know what scholarships I'm talking about. The example I'm giving you and dan applies to a student who has exceled academically. I'm beginning to realize why you and dan are so confused....
Well, good. Maybe since
Tue, 04/13/2010 - 11:26 — danofncWell, good.
Maybe since you're finally figuring out that we are talking about the general population, you'll use examples that fit the conversation.
I'm confused because we're talking about tax credits and/or vouchers for private schools, and you're making an argument for them by giving examples of merit-based scholarships and need-based grants.
Maybe next you'll tell me how much you love football and then describe a basketball game.
Do not make assumptions about me
Tue, 04/13/2010 - 10:54 — Dove314As they are likely not accurate. In particular, you should not assume ignorance.
And I am not confused -- I'm asking you for specific details.
You have now clarified that these scholarships of which you speak are merit-based rather than means-based and thus only available to a small subset of students rather than all students in NC.
I agree with many
Mon, 04/12/2010 - 17:57 — openmindMany have supported what I was trying to say with the college analogy. I realize it is not the same exact thing and the constitution doesn't provide for a college education, but the idea of CHOICE is still there. . If you are being given the opportunity for an education based on your taxes and you choose not to take that opportunity, don't come asking for money to go someplace else. If that is the case, I have no kids in the public school system right now. I won't for about another 3 years. Can I get the money I am contributing for education to help pay for my child's daycare?
Some recent findings on charter schools
Mon, 04/12/2010 - 16:02 — aadurhamPlease check out my blog for some recent empirical results on the impact of charters on student achievement, and on ideas on student assignment:
http://dialog.econ.duke.edu/schoolchoice/2010/04/12/charter-schools/
I find it much more like for
Mon, 04/12/2010 - 15:09 — shearertwI find it much more like for liberals to tell a homeschooler what they have to teach at home vs. a conservative getting in the way. Conservatives may fight for the ability to pray or where a Tshirt that says Jesus or to keep "under God" in the pledge but inserting "gays, sex, etc." into education is not coming from any conservative I know. NO good conservative would ever ask a homeschooler to do anything other than meet some minimum math and reading standard or some other measure to make sure the kid is actually being educated.
compare it to college
Mon, 04/12/2010 - 14:56 — openmindSo let's make this analogy- people are CHOOSING to attend private schools. It is just like choosing to go to a private college/university vs. attending a much more affordable public/state school. It is a choose people are making. Are we going to start giving a tax break to people who choose private colleges as well. Their tax money does go towards t he state funded colleges. If they aren't attending there then they should get a break. How absurd!!!! If you choose a private school it is your choice to do so and deal with it.
OK, now I'm just piling
Mon, 04/12/2010 - 15:30 — shearertwOK, now I'm just piling on....
North Carolina Education Lottery Scholarship (ELS)
Remind me....
Mon, 04/12/2010 - 15:33 — danofncWhen was the NC Consitution changed to provide everyone with a college education?
Must have been the same day
Mon, 04/12/2010 - 15:50 — shearertwDifferent things
Mon, 04/12/2010 - 16:06 — danofncThe point is that providing incentive/help with college to people who choose to go and providing incentive/help to people who decide to use something other than public K-12 schools are totally different things.
If you choose a private college over a public one, you aren't giving up a free education in the process.
If you elect to send your kids to Thales, Cary Academy, Ravenscroft, homeschool, or where ever else, you are choosing to go outside of public education. That shouldn't mean that you should be able to extract a portion of the school's operating budget to help pay the way.
If a kid who is taken out of the system warrants a voucher, how much of a voucher would someone expect who had no kids in the system?
I don't understand why you guys always want to throw out random examples that don't really compare. Health care..no comparison. Allowing illegals into CC..no comparison. 3am bell time vs. Wake Wednesday....no comparison. All of those are just from today, and they go right along with you mentioning the government being fearful of private schools being able to work with a lesser budget only to then tell me that looking at why those budgets are different is "pointless".
So...
Mon, 04/12/2010 - 16:47 — Bob_SconceThere's no such thing as a free education. It's paid for by the taxpayers -- why shouldn't a student be able to say "Hey. You're paying $X to educate me and, frankly, you're not going that great of a job. How about you give the money to somebody who can do a better job?"
If you ignore the people already being educated outside the distrct, I don't see what the problem is: the school district spends $X to educate my child. My child would be better off, and the district would be no worse off (and might even be better off), if you took 1/2 of $X and used it to help pay for my child's education at, say, Thales.
(How do I know that my child would be better off? Because if he's be worse off at the other school, then I wouldn't move him.)
There's nothing magical about the current school system -- it's a means to an end, not an end in itself. We shouldn't be refusing better ways of educating kids just out of some sort of sentimental attachment to the public school system.
Bob ... there are alot of
Mon, 04/12/2010 - 17:57 — user12345Bob ... there are alot of people opting out today for $0 ... I did for eight years of homeschooling without asking a dime from taxpayers.... I am not sure why we should up the offering if they are willing to accept $0?
I agree...
Mon, 04/12/2010 - 20:37 — Bob_SconceThat goes back to my previous point -- all those people, and there are a LOT of them, will be in line for the vouchers. It's the Achilles heel of the school choice movement.
There are lots of people who need more than $0, but less than the full cost to the school system. Those people are an opportunity for a win-win: the district gets to keep some of the $, but doesn't have to educate the kids, and the kids get an education that they prefer.
"why shouldn't a student
Mon, 04/12/2010 - 16:58 — danofnc"why shouldn't a student be able to say "Hey. You're paying $X to
educate me and, frankly, you're not going that great of a job. How
about you give the money to somebody who can do a better job?""
For the same reason that someone without kids can't say "You know, I get that education is important, but I don't have any children so I'd like to get that money back."
"(How do I know that my child would be better off? Because if he's be
worse off at the other school, then I wouldn't move him.)"
That's not necessarily true. I know plenty of people who have switched jobs, only to wish that they had the old job back.
"We shouldn't be refusing better ways of educating kids just out of some
sort of sentimental attachment to the public school system."
It's not about any sentimental attachment. I don't think the way to improve public education is to take funding away from it in order to strengthen its competitors. Public school are funded by taxpayers, so it is in all of our interests that they are as successful and efficient as possible.
Huh?
Mon, 04/12/2010 - 17:32 — Bob_SconceSo, your complaint is in the "Tax Credit" way in which somebody has proposed that the money should be transferred to parents? If, instead, it was just a direct grant, then you wouldn't have a problem?
If that's not it, then I'm not getting what your complaint is.
The job switching analogy doesn't work because you can always pull your kids back out of a private school you don't like. Plus, there's likely to be a lot more public information about schools than there is about workplaces.
So, the point is that the threat of having funding taken away should be an incentive to improve. Ford makes much better cars than it used to because Honda and other competitors 'took funding" away. If Ford didn't have to worry about its customers leaving for other brands, it would still be making crappy cars.
Any method of taking money
Mon, 04/12/2010 - 20:18 — danofncAny method of taking money out of the system simply because someone found another option is wrong, IMO. I don't see how you can give a parent a voucher for a private school, justifying by the fact that they aren't using the public school system, while at the same time using tax money from people without a child (at all) to pay for schools.
The job switching analogy works in very well in the context I used it. I believe you said "How do I know that my child would be better off? Because if he's be
worse off at the other school, then I wouldn't move him".
That implies...no, actually that states flat-out that if your child would be worse off at a private school you wouldn't move him. In that instance, if you actually did pull him out, you'd be proving that parents aren't always the best source of what's best for a child when it comes to education.
Of course, you used the idea of a 3am start time to talk trash about Wake Wednesdays, so I'm not sure analogies are your strong suit.
Speaking of poor analogies.....Honda and Ford are not getting their funding from the same entity. Why not use GM as an example? Find me the Buick ad that tries to take sales from Chevrolet. Or the Chevrolet ad that attacks GMC. You won't find them.
So...
Mon, 04/12/2010 - 20:48 — Bob_SconceGreat. I'm not using Social Security. I don't see how you can justfy giving some old person social security while at the same time using tax money from people like me who don't benefit from Social Security. Ditto for welfare and food stamps.
We don't generally have problems with people buying a car and them wishing they had bought a different car -- it happens, but it's rare. Similarly, I think the number of people regretting the school where they put their kids will be quite small.
Honda and Ford do get their funding from the same "entity" --
the population of car buyers. But, thanks for pointing out GM -- since the bailout, they've lost $3B, I think. The entity funding *them* doesn't really care if their cars are any good, as long as they employ a lot of people in Michigan. Sounds vaguely familiar.
I know you'll never admit
Mon, 04/12/2010 - 22:25 — danofncI know you'll never admit it, but your first paragraph is exactly the point.
Once you let one group of taxpayers "opt out", where does it stop?
Ok..
Tue, 04/13/2010 - 06:04 — Bob_SconceIt isn't 'opting out' -- it's deciding to to allow recipients to decide who will be providing them services, instead of letting government decide that.
There are tons of places where this happens -- Medicare (you choose the dr, we'll pay them), food stamps (you choose the food, we'll pay for it), housing vouchers (You choose the landlord, we'll pay for it.) Government doesn't make those people only go to government doctors, buy food from government stores or live in government housing. Why not add schools to the list -- you choose the school, we'll pay them? Why is it that the government can let my parents choose who gets the government medical money, but not let me choose who gets the government school money?
By my read, your only argument is historical accident -- effectively you're saying that we've always had government schools, and if we let people opt out of those, then people will start wanting to opt out of everything the government does. I don't find that 'slippery-slope' argument particularly convincing, especially in light of all the places that gov't does let people make their own choices.
Does the government fund a
Tue, 04/13/2010 - 07:49 — danofncDoes the government fund a free hospital?
Does the government fund grocery stores?
Does the government own any rental property?
Could you cite an example where the government provides a free service to you, and if you opt out of that service for a private provider of the same service the government gives you money to pay/help pay for it?
Ever heard of the VA?
Tue, 04/13/2010 - 08:59 — shearertwEver heard of the VA? Some vets choose to go to a private healthcare facility which may cost them more out of pocket but they believe they'll better care. Gov't pays for part of their treatment. Or, some people don't live near a VA hospital so the gov't pays for them to go to a private hospital....
There's also welfare and government housing...
Private colleges/universities which is where this thread started...Many folks could go to the state university for free (or close to it) but chose to go to the private university (say Duke for ex) b/c they believe they'll get a better education. The gov't still gives them grants, subsidized loans, etc. but they just have to make up a larger difference in price.
We're also not just talking vouchers here, we're talking tax credits as well. Tax credits is getting YOUR money BACK. The gov't gives tax credits for buying a stupid Prius or stuffing some more insulation in your attack for Pete's sake. They even let you deduct student loan interest (up to a point) that you may have accumulated while attending a PRIVATE UNIVERSITY.
Why exclude funding the education of your children from that list?
Two words - TEACHER'S UNION
State University for Free?
Tue, 04/13/2010 - 09:41 — Dove314Can you point me to the free universities? I could use that right about now.
Last I checked NCState was upwards of $15K, UNC-CH slightly more; a few less rigorous colleges were slightly cheaper but all were over $10K.
What state university is
Tue, 04/13/2010 - 09:39 — danofncWhat state university is "close to free"?
Loans don't count, because you have to pay them back. The grants are there to encourage people to attend college because not everyone does.
You mention tax credits. Most people support vouchers, because in order to take advantage of a tax credit you have to be able to pay ahead of time and wait until tax time to get the credit.
.
How do you know most people
Tue, 04/13/2010 - 10:31 — shearertwHow do you know most people support vouchers?
Vouchers generally benefit the poor and middle class more than tax credits as most of the poor and middle class do not pay enough taxes to get the benefit from a tax credit.
Anyone who makes enough money and doesn't support a tax credit for the reason you cite is fairly short-sited because tuition comes every year and getting a tax credit at the end of this year would help pay for next year's tuition. You also have to buy the stupid Prius before you get a tax credit so I don't get your point.
If you get a tax credit for
Tue, 04/13/2010 - 10:45 — danofncIf you get a tax credit for tuition because you took your kid out of public schools, how does the state justify keeping the tax money of someone without kids to use on schools?
The point is that I don't think the federal government should be in the business of encouraging the creation of exclusive schools for upper-middle class kids. That's what a tax credit would do.
I also don't understand why you'd suggest getting a federal tax credit for tuition that is greater than the amount spent by the federal government per WCPSS student.
I'm not advocating one way
Tue, 04/13/2010 - 10:52 — shearertwYour "examples" seem to be
Tue, 04/13/2010 - 11:21 — danofncYour "examples" seem to be either need-based or merit-based.
If there were a system of colleges and universities that guaranteed a seat to every American student, do you think that all of these tax credits would still exist?
You are comparing apples and oranges.
For you and Dove: I didn't
Tue, 04/13/2010 - 10:12 — shearertwFor you and Dove:
I didn't say the state universities were "free". I said some people can go there for "free". What I'm referring to is someone who gets accepted into a private university like Duke, Yale, or Harvard will often have enough grant money and/or scholarship money to attend the state university at no cost to them. That is quite common. In fact, most in-state students don't pay anywhere near the full cost of tuition due to state grants and scholorships. The student accepted into Duke, Yale or Harvard may still opt to attend those schools at a cost of $40K/year even thought attending the state school would have cost them nothing. Your eagerness to jump down my throat is making you both look a little ignorant.
Those individuals attending Duke still get grant money from state and federal programs. And loans DO count because federal tax dollars are paying the interest while you're in school and you DON'T have to pay that interest back. That's what subsidized means!.
Perhaps you and Dove should think things through or at least read more carefully before jumping.
Subsidized loans are based
Tue, 04/13/2010 - 10:24 — danofncSubsidized loans are based on financial need. You can't just get one because you feel like it. Before you call someone ignorant, you should use google.
The grant/scholarship money you get for a private school is not necessarily there if you attend a state school. It's not usually a choice between going to one school for free or paying for the other. There is a private school that will give you $1000/year if you live in the county in which it's located.....but you can't take that money and go to a different school.
I don't usually play grammar nazi, but since you called me ignorant I'd like to point out that it's "attic", not "attack" (which you used in a post) and "argument" not "arguement" (which you've used in several posts).
When you're losing, just go
Tue, 04/13/2010 - 10:47 — shearertwWhen you're losing, just go to spell checker...
You comments suggest you still do not get it, even with a step-by-step description. Perhaps someone (i.e. me) went through this example exactly and may know a little something about it.
Your step-by-step example
Tue, 04/13/2010 - 11:32 — danofncYour step-by-step example doesn't apply to the conversation, unless you think that a tax credit/voucher system should be need- or merit-based.
Some state grants are not
Tue, 04/13/2010 - 13:10 — shearertwSome state grants are not based on merit or need... so your point is not relevant.
But...I would be OK with tax credits and/or vouchers being somewhat tied to income.
State Contractual
Mon, 04/12/2010 - 15:23 — shearertwState Contractual Scholarship Fund
North Carolina Legislative
Mon, 04/12/2010 - 15:19 — shearertwNorth Carolina Legislative Tuition Grant
Ah....there ARE state
Mon, 04/12/2010 - 15:13 — shearertwAh....there ARE state funded grants for people to attend private colleges/universities. So your point is?
duplicate
Mon, 04/12/2010 - 14:18 — shearertwduplicate
Somebody on the left help me
Mon, 04/12/2010 - 10:36 — shearertwSomebody on the left help me with the math.
If it cost WCPSS/State/Fed $8750 per student in the system and we give people a $2500 or even $5000 tax credit for removing their child from the system and going with an alternative, how does that hurt the system finacially?
Isn't this really about control? Don't you guys just hate for government to not be in complete control over everyone's lives? Don't you guys just HATE any money being diverted away from government, teacher union, etc. Isn't that what your real problem is? Some charter/private school may do a better job educating kids at a lower cost making government look bad. That's really what you're worried about isn't it....